Were there actually people who didn't like spec identity?

[Monoxide]

"class identity!!!" people are just parroting inane talking points they hear from classic youtubers and other forum posters, they're all anti-pruning yet scream for specs to be homogenized and made redundant all so that 36 unique play styles can be reverted back into 12. braindead logic

You have a huge misunderstanding of what people are talking about on this topic.

People want classes to be classes, and specs to be what that word actually is, specializations. So if you're playing a Warlock, you should have some basics that are always present, like demons, dots, and fiery destruction. Then, when you pick your specialization, like Demonology, your Demons and that aspect of your class are enhanced, but you're not losing your dots and fiery destruction. You won't be as strong of a dotter as an Affliction Warlock, and he won't have as strong of Demons as you, but you both have the basics. This example can be used with many classes, like Mages, you shouldn't lose Frostbolt because you chose to SPECIALIZE in Fire. You're not a Fire Mage, you're a MAGE who specializes in fire.

You misunderstand the complaints about the classes and what people mean when they talk about homogenization. I'll give you some more examples. Classes are currently pretty boring, and they just feel...empty. The reason for this is that people cried "bring the player, not the class", so Blizzard made design decisions to make classes less unique. You saw it in things like Mages and Hunters getting lust, Paladins getting strong AoE heals, Rogues getting AoE DPS abilities. Hell, I saw a topic on here about a month ago or so of people really upset that Rogue AoE got nerfed, and that it was a "core" part of their class. It's amazing to me to read something like that considering Rogue had no AoE for what, four, five years? They had Blade Flurry (which was a 2 minute cooldown), and that's it until they got Fan of Knives in Wrath.

I know a lot of people are going to read this and say "well, yeah, you should bring the player and not the class", but that's a bad way of viewing the game. I'm sorry if that hurts to hear, but it's true. Huge class stacking still exists. Guilds still do it all the time, so the goal wasn't achieved. We still have issues of certain classes just blowing ahead of the pack, and yet we had to sacrifice class uniqueness in the process.

We keep going through this process where each class is given cool and fun abilities, and then the season ends and we lose. Yes, expansions are looked at as seasons now. You can see that in the design philosophy of each expansions big features (garrisons, class halls, etc). They build the game that each expansion they can do whatever and then after the expansion is over it doesn't matter anymore. They view classes the same way.

The way classes are designed now is just depressing. If you're new(er) to the game I guess it's probably not even noticeable. I logged onto my Druid, who I made in Wrath, and it was so foreign. I had a mana bar but I really don't know why. I was spec'd Balance, and so many abilities that I had before are just locked behind other specs. I can't do cool things like before, like saving a group with a clutch Tranquility. Back to the mana bar though, I don't really know why I have one. None of my spells cost mana, the only exception is Regrowth. Regrowth costs mana and nothing else does, *and* it's now the only healing spell I have.

It's hard to describe, and I probably didn't do a great job of it, but classes have been destroyed. You don't play a class now, you play a spec, and there's 5 other specs that can do the cool thing you used to be able to do exclusively, and now each class is just boring. Most DPS classes now are also "generator>generator>spender>generator>generator>spender" as the entire rotation, with a 3 min CD thrown in there. It just feels bad to play retail right now.

[kaminaris]

You have a huge misunderstanding of what people are talking about on this topic.

People want classes to be classes, and specs to be what that word actually is, specializations. So if you're playing a Warlock, you should have some basics that are always present, like demons, dots, and fiery destruction. Then, when you pick your specialization, like Demonology, your Demons and that aspect of your class are enhanced, but you're not losing your dots and fiery destruction. You won't be as strong of a dotter as an Affliction Warlock, and he won't have as strong of Demons as you, but you both have the basics. This example can be used with many classes, like Mages, you shouldn't lose Frostbolt because you chose to SPECIALIZE in Fire. You're not a Fire Mage, you're a MAGE who specializes in fire.

You misunderstand the complaints about the classes and what people mean when they talk about homogenization. I'll give you some more examples. Classes are currently pretty boring, and they just feel...empty. The reason for this is that people cried "bring the player, not the class", so Blizzard made design decisions to make classes less unique. You saw it in things like Mages and Hunters getting lust, Paladins getting strong AoE heals, Rogues getting AoE DPS abilities. Hell, I saw a topic on here about a month ago or so of people really upset that Rogue AoE got nerfed, and that it was a "core" part of their class. It's amazing to me to read something like that considering Rogue had no AoE for what, four, five years? They had Blade Flurry (which was a 2 minute cooldown), and that's it until they got Fan of Knives in Wrath.

I know a lot of people are going to read this and say "well, yeah, you should bring the player and not the class", but that's a bad way of viewing the game. I'm sorry if that hurts to hear, but it's true. Huge class stacking still exists. Guilds still do it all the time, so the goal wasn't achieved. We still have issues of certain classes just blowing ahead of the pack, and yet we had to sacrifice class uniqueness in the process.

We keep going through this process where each class is given cool and fun abilities, and then the season ends and we lose. Yes, expansions are looked at as seasons now. You can see that in the design philosophy of each expansions big features (garrisons, class halls, etc). They build the game that each expansion they can do whatever and then after the expansion is over it doesn't matter anymore. They view classes the same way.

The way classes are designed now is just depressing. If you're new(er) to the game I guess it's probably not even noticeable. I logged onto my Druid, who I made in Wrath, and it was so foreign. I had a mana bar but I really don't know why. I was spec'd Balance, and so many abilities that I had before are just locked behind other specs. I can't do cool things like before, like saving a group with a clutch Tranquility. Back to the mana bar though, I don't really know why I have one. None of my spells cost mana, the only exception is Regrowth. Regrowth costs mana and nothing else does, *and* it's now the only healing spell I have.

It's hard to describe, and I probably didn't do a great job of it, but classes have been destroyed. You don't play a class now, you play a spec, and there's 5 other specs that can do the cool thing you used to be able to do exclusively, and now each class is just boring. Most DPS classes now are also "generator>generator>spender>generator>generator>spender" as the entire rotation, with a 3 min CD thrown in there. It just feels bad to play retail right now.

No, he is right and you are wrong.

I love that demo doesn't have any dots, fukken hate dots.

Homogenization is buzzword and for me it means every class has everything. And peak of homogenization is classic where every class is mana based and some classes play exactly the same spamming one button.

[Reivur]

I've found that the majority of people who hate spec identity are the same people who play Hybrids; ie, Shamans, Druids and Paladins, whose identities are meant to be broad and they got pigeon-holed. I'm not going to say universally everyone else was content, but by far it was mostly those three who were understandably the most upset.

Here I am, maining Mage, and I still don't understand why I should care that I can cast fire on a frost mage or arcane explosion on a fire mage. Shrug. I'm not excited because as a non-hybrid it simply isn't a feature to me. Its pointlessly dull.

I get to add clutter I genuinely won't use on my bar. Y a y what an e x p a n s i o n feature that was totally worth an entire k e y n o t e.

[Nomads]

At some point you people have to just stop engaging with arkanon. The guy is some sort of mentally handicapped, and by continually replying to him and giving him attention, you're just making him think he's actually making intelligent arguments.

Just confine him to one of those replies everyone reads and then subsequently ignores because it's apparent he's on a whole other level of ignorant...

[VinceVega]

Spec identity turned 12 classes into 36. Who actually was against this? Were people asking Blizzard to give this up?

I can understand some people not liking the identity Blizz chose for some specs, like losing 2H Frost or ranged Survival specs... but we gained a ton of replayability from it.

Are we going to lose our 36 unique specs as a result of this "depruning"?

Agreed. Never understood that. I understand that some classes feel a bit... bare boned... when i compare the action bars from my frost mage to my moonkin... glaring differences...

But everyone wants a new class so desperately but at the same time wants the specs ( which are nearly classes at this point ) to feel the same? Why?

I love how the specs felt different. It gives the spec more oomph. Like i am a druid an my life is completely devoted to healing why would i run around as a cat shredding stuff.
Or i completely base my live around on the intricacies of shadow magic. But sure hear i shield you with light an because i feel like it take this glowing yellow ball to the face. Feel better?

I would have liked to give the specs more identity. Like the different druid groups (claw etc.)

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, honestly, I'm done with him. He's never going to get it but literally everyone but him can see and understand why he's so wrong, he just can't admit it himself.

I mean, there's only so many times you can walk someone through why their logic is wrong before you just gotta save yourself the headache.

But your logic is completely over the place. He has a logical path and nearly drawn it out for you AND even used your metaphor for better understanding.
Bliz did reject it. For now. They can change their mind. But for now it is as it stands. Not in the game. So they decided against it.

[Monoxide]

No, he is right and you are wrong.

I love that demo doesn't have any dots, fukken hate dots.

Homogenization is buzzword and for me it means every class has everything. And peak of homogenization is classic where every class is mana based and some classes play exactly the same spamming one button.

lol is that a joke? Classes play completely differently in classic. Be honest, have you ever played capped in classic/vanilla? I'm doubting that.

Look at caster DPS rotations in BFA. They're the exact same. generator>generator>spender, repeat

[Zmagoslav]

Yup, and they are currently playing classic.

[Swnem]

Oh there were some people.

I think it's utter nonsense. I don't see why my fire mage needs to cast frostbolts when it is not part of the spec mechanics, t doesn't benefit from mastery, etc.
Want to bring back utility? Fine. But class fantasy is total bs. We don't play classes we play specs. If they want us to play classes and bring us back to twelve gutting two thirds of the game for nostalgia sake, go right ahead and see the clustercluck that will happen. Even after all this talk, specs will still be the classes. Except now you have trash spells to remove from your bars again. Yay! Class fantasy! Derpy derp!

[Monoxide]

Oh there were some people.

I think it's utter nonsense. I don't see why my fire mage needs to cast frostbolts when it is not part of the spec mechanics, t doesn't benefit from mastery, etc.
Want to bring back utility? Fine. But class fantasy is total bs. We don't play classes we play specs. If they want us to play classes and bring us back to twelve gutting two thirds of the game for nostalgia sake, go right ahead and see the clustercluck that will happen. Even after all this talk, specs will still be the classes. Except now you have trash spells to remove from your bars again. Yay! Class fantasy! Derpy derp!

Yeah except that's just flat out wrong. We play classes, not specs. Spec means specialization. I'll say it again: You don't play a fire mage, you play a MAGE that specializes in fire.

[Scathan]

Never understood the desire to go back to an inflated spellbook with spells you don't use. What is the point of having fireball as a frost mage? Any buffs that they add (like auras) will be useless since content will be designed around have that extra effect. The things that truly matter, like kicks for healers, are dangerous and can have really bad effects on pvp and mythic+.

flexibility? mob has high resistance to frost, use fire. hitting a rogue with a rank 1 fireball to have the dot break them out of vanish? having arcane explosion in all specs because it's good for running trivial content. here is the thing, if you think they are useless, you don't have to use it. but why take it away from the people who like it just so you don't have to see it in your spellbook?

from the sound of it, getting classwide spells back will have 0 effect on how the specs play, since they aren't re working classes. they are just letting use use them for funzies if you want. nothing wrong with that.

[Swnem]

Yeah except that's just flat out wrong. We play classes, not specs. Spec means specialization. I'll say it again: You don't play a fire mage, you play a MAGE that specializes in fire.

That is completely wrong and detached of reality.

You play a Fire Mage (for example). You don't play a "Mage". "Mage" is the umbrella for 3 types of mage classes, in this case called specs. You cannot play frost and fire mage at the same time and you never will. You play Fire mage OR Frost mage. You can't play both at the same time. The mechanics are completely at odds.

Sorry, reality doesn't check out with your claims and you got to get to grips with it. All you're gonna get from this are spells that are literally bloating your bars or are extremely underwhelming cause they won't scale.

[Sezh]

after this, i cant take you seriously (and not bcs i main frost dk ) but im sure former lich king would disagree as he used frost A LOT

Luckily it wasn't meant to be taken entirely seriously.

[AzazeltheRuthless]

That is completely wrong and detached of reality.

You play a Fire Mage (for example). You don't play a "Mage". "Mage" is the umbrella for 3 types of mage classes, in this case called specs. You cannot play frost and fire mage at the same time and you never will. You play Fire mage OR Frost mage. You can't play both at the same time. The mechanics are completely at odds.

Sorry, reality doesn't check out with your claims and you got to get to grips with it. All you're gonna get from this are spells that are literally bloating your bars or are extremely underwhelming cause they won't scale.

You literally missed his point. Let's break this down to help you out.First off remember this is an Rpg.

You pick your class or job you're going to be which is mage. You start training as a mage. You have spells you learn that represents all mages which will typically involve all 3 schools
Frost, Fire and Arcane. To give you an idea of what each can do. As you level and grow stronger you start going down a tree that specializes into one of the schools. Just because you specialize in Fire doesn't mean you forget to use the Frost and Arcane spells that you learned before hand. You're just specializing in a preference.

Hopefully this comes off as condescending and insulting as I intend.

[ro9ue]

I think the specs can stay as long as they free up more playstyle options. Gladiator Warrior, 2H Frost DK, 2H Enhance... stuff like that. Maybe let you pull a few talents from other specs? Maybe you want to be an Affliction lock with 1 really good Demon pet?

What people complain about, including me, is that Blizzard in developing the 36 specs decided very specifically how these each play with not a lot of wiggle room. You play the spec the way it was designed and it's less about having a ton of class abilities at your disposal and customizing it how you choose.

[Lolites]

I think the specs can stay as long as they free up more playstyle options. Gladiator Warrior, 2H Frost DK, 2H Enhance... stuff like that. Maybe let you pull a few talents from other specs? Maybe you want to be an Affliction lock with 1 really good Demon pet?

What people complain about, including me, is that Blizzard in developing the 36 specs decided very specifically how these each play with not a lot of wiggle room. You play the spec the way it was designed and it's less about having a ton of class abilities at your disposal and customizing it how you choose.

exactly, until essences in 8.2 frost DK really had only one option of playstyle - breath build, now icecap build is playable (although numericaly still behind especialy on single target) yet its FUN and there is finaly a choice (which we will most likely loose when azerite traits and essences will no longer be viable), i couldnt care less if they add or return some abilities, if breath build is my only choice its SHITTY class design...

[Skildar]

I think to really give DKs some thoughts back into their abilities they're going to need to separate the runes again >.>

Honestly never thought it was a good idea in the first place, was really one of those changes that was only there to dumb things down.

completely agree!

[Askyl]

There is still spec identity in a class with class idenity, like.. What?

[Doffen]

One of the things I'm looking forward to getting back is the dual wielding of weapons on my hunter, Yes I may barely use them but they were apart of my class identity and being kitted out with dual swords/axes and whatnot along with a bow on my back made my hunter feel more rangery to me.

They are bringing back so hunters get a melee and a ranged weapon again?

[DotEleven]

Agreed. Never understood that. I understand that some classes feel a bit... bare boned... when i compare the action bars from my frost mage to my moonkin... glaring differences...

But everyone wants a new class so desperately but at the same time wants the specs ( which are nearly classes at this point ) to feel the same? Why?

I love how the specs felt different. It gives the spec more oomph. Like i am a druid an my life is completely devoted to healing why would i run around as a cat shredding stuff.
Or i completely base my live around on the intricacies of shadow magic. But sure hear i shield you with light an because i feel like it take this glowing yellow ball to the face. Feel better?

I would have liked to give the specs more identity. Like the different druid groups (claw etc.)

- - - Updated - - -



But your logic is completely over the place. He has a logical path and nearly drawn it out for you AND even used your metaphor for better understanding.
Bliz did reject it. For now. They can change their mind. But for now it is as it stands. Not in the game. So they decided against it.

Blizzard didn't reject it. No one's rejected it. Rejecting it is having said "No, we aren't doing this class." like they've stated "We aren't doing High Elves". That's rejecting it.

Not everything not currently in the games is "rejected". Dragon Islands aren't in the game, doesn't mean it's rejected.

My logic has been straightforward and on a single path. HIS is purely "Because something isn't shown in the Shadowlands it's therefore been rejected." Therefore everything's been rejected from Blizzard and we shouldn't expect anything from now on because they've all been "rejected"?

Now you could say something along the lines of "They rejected the idea of adding a new class to Shadowlands" but that just sounds stupid. It wasn't the right time. It's not like they don't want to add new classes.

You and him seem to be under the impression that not being the right time is "rejecting" it. If this were an animation studio working on a series and someone pitched an idea and someone said "That doesn't work for season 1 but could work down the line" it's not being rejected, just put on hold.

Like, let's put it this way. Under your guys belief that "Anything not in Shadowlands is rejected." Every potential class is rejected. Every potential race is rejected. Every other knew potential expac has been rejected. Any dungeon's not in Shadowland has been rejected, every raid has been rejected. Literally everything that isn't specifically being added in Shadowlands has been "rejected".

Do you understand now how stupid that sounds?

[Cosmic Janitor]

They are bringing back so hunters get a melee and a ranged weapon again?

I don't see them bringing back the ranged slot.