“Race≠Faction” hopes aren’t dead yet

[Otimus]

It'll never happen because Blizzard quite literally can't think outside the box.

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What's up with people trying to turn Warcraft into Hello Kitty Online?

I legit will spam votekick when i see the opposing faction is in my group.

Get some anger management dawg

[Mic_128]

These factions didn't exist until WoW though.

Both factions - The Alliance (Humans, Elves, Gnomes and Dwarves) and the Horde (Orcs, Trolls, Ogres and Goblins) - were created in WC2.

EDIT:

It'll never happen because Blizzard quite literally can't think outside the box.

I don't see how going 'faction differences is too hard' and giving up is 'thinking outside the box.'

Also, I find it hilarious that just because they aren't at each others throats right now, both factions are expected to dissolve/merge and become a global power. Because that totally happened when America, China and Russia united to fight the Nazi's. They forgot about generations of hatred and mistrust and truly became one, global faction.

...right?

[jellmoo]

for protection? for support? for resources? for friendship?

All of which do not require factions. These are why nations create alliances and treaties. Before the Alliance was a thing, Stormwind and Ironforge already enjoyed such a relationship, for example.

because the faction that they joined is at wat with the opposite one, the moment you join you became a target, friend of my enemy is my enemy.

Take Suramar, for example. What incentive did they actually have for joining the Horde? Suddenly they are in a war. After thousands of years of Independence they are a vassal state in a war against a group of people that literally just helped free them. The Nightborne joining either faction is utterly nonsensical. They had no need to. It is completely against their best interests to get involved in a war that is meaningless to them.

there was legitimate reasons,there still conflict going on with dwarves and orcs in alterac, dwares and orc sin twilight highlands,orcs nd night elves, worgens and forsaken, humans and forsaken, dwarves and taurens, trolls and humans and so oon, they hd torehah a history simple because the writers are incompetent and bad.

They could make the alliance attck first to retake lorderon but no, they HAD to make Sylvanus as the pivotal and plot device characters for shadowlands

again, not the plot

Very much the plot. Because it was nonsense for the Night Elves to join the Alliance to begin with. The same way it was nonsense for the Forsaken to join the Horde. It's just to pigeonhole an enemy faction race on another continent. The conflicts they have are incredibly forced. There is zero reason for races that live on separate continents to be engaged in battles over a whole lot of nothing. The plot is essentially convoluted and designed to create artificial conflict over nothing.

but we aleady had that, just becaue the races and kingdoms are also red and blue don't dismiss those

how the heck you are going to do this without a faction system? that would be a fucking mess

In WoW we absolutely have not had this. At all. Every conflict is centered around red vs blue. Hell, the introduction of Worgen into the Alliance is the ultimate expression of that. The only reason they join is because Garrosh orders the Forsaken to attack them. A group of isolationists who had not been involved in anything for years. Garrosh opened a battlefront in the worst possible place, for no good reason just because the plot demanded it.

And you do this by taking a step back and having nations have conflicts, just like in the real world. It creates and evolving and living story that can change as you move along, instead of having to reset to the status quo time and again just to maintain the faction facade.

so, the gnomsand draenei will have somehow a conflict, just like that, and you think that is fine

Dude... No. Obviously not "just like that". You craft a story to make it happen. You write in a conflict and then let it play out. I was merely giving an example. Right now, because of factions, it can't happen. Like in game we have conflict between Tyrande and Anduin, except it cannot play out because of the faction mechanic. Eliminate that mechanic, and you have a world of storytelling available.

yes, trolls nd blood elves at conflict, but why, and why other races will join their fight, for what reason, a human will help trolls ainst elves, and orcs will help blood elves againsttrolls

fo no fucking reason, this is your idea of complex storie? cause this is nonsense, this would only work if warcraft2-3 and vanila to now neverexisted, wow 2 reboot version, right now is nonsense.

Again... No... Dude... No... Not for no reason. You craft a story that provides reasons for everything. You create conflict and then have it play out. Stop being deliberately dense. Right now, we have the same conflicts happening again and again. Ad infinitum. The same races, having the same battle. Because factions demand that the same groups keep fighting. If we strip that layer back, and we go with Nations instead, we have a different mechanic for conflict. We have groups where treaties and alliances actually mean something.

Ask yourself: What makes more sense. For a nation to want to decide it's own fate, be involved in the battles that matter to it and its people, to be in charge of their own armies? Or for a nation to simply give control of their armies and do whatever a barely grown man says, just cuz? Or for them to give control of their armies to a clearly evil undead creature because a troll spirit told their dying troll leader to do so?

how is the problem now? in bfa i followed trolls, orcs, tauren, elves and even goblins, i don't want to move from that thank you

just because the writers shit in the story now we don't have to be so drastically to remove the factions entirely, that is not a solution

You literally spent the expansion following the orders of an elf. After being involved in the murder of a bunch of elves. With a huge elf related warfront.

But no, please keep the game stagnant and repeating the same story over and over again because you have some weird alliance phobia.

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Both factions - The Alliance (Humans, Elves, Gnomes and Dwarves) and the Horde (Orcs, Trolls, Ogres and Goblins) - were created in WC2.

And those are not the factions that exist in the game today. For one, that was Lordaeron and not Stormwind. For another, the trolls in Warcraft 2 are forest trolls and not Darkspear. And of course the elves are no in the other faction. To say nothing of the fact that we are missing the Tauren, Forsaken and Night Elves.

[Mic_128]

Take Suramar, for example. What incentive did they actually have for joining the Horde?

1. Help with dealing with Mana addiction. Both from the psychological side of it but also the physiological. The Arcanador can only grow so much fruit at once.
2. Help recovering from overthrowing/murdering their leadership and rebuilding their city and method of government
3. They wanted to be a part of Azeroth proper, not just hiding away again. With the Alliance and Horde having holdings over every continent - and with one side somewhat hostile at worst, unfriendly at best, it made sense to ally with the Horde.

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And those are not the factions that exist in the game today. For one, that was Lordaeron and not Stormwind. For another, the trolls in Warcraft 2 are forest trolls and not Darkspear. And of course the elves are no in the other faction. To say nothing of the fact that we are missing the Tauren, Forsaken and Night Elves.

Okay, fine. Let's say they were created in WC3. It still predates WoW.

[jellmoo]

1. Help with dealing with Mana addiction. Both from the psychological side of it but also the physiological. The Arcanador can only grow so much fruit at once.
2. Help recovering from overthrowing/murdering their leadership and rebuilding their city and method of government
3. They wanted to be a part of Azeroth proper, not just hiding away again. With the Alliance and Horde having holdings over every continent - and with one side somewhat hostile at worst, unfriendly at best, it made sense to ally with the Horde.

None of the above actually requires that they join a faction though, and get dragged into an ongoing war that has nothing to do with them. They could have just as easily decided to create treaties and trade agreements with both Alliance and Horde. Or sought and alliance of sorts with Dalaran. There wan't any reason whatsoever for them to come out of hiding, pledge their allegiance to an undead elf queen, and then get bogged down in a war that doesn't give them anything.

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Okay, fine. Let's say they were created in WC3. It still predates WoW.

Except it's still not the same Alliance. It's still Lordaeron and not Stormwind. We still have the high Elves with the humans. This time though there aren't any Gnomes. And we still don't have any Forsaken. And the Night Elves are most definitely not a member of the Alliance.

[Mic_128]

None of the above actually requires that they join a faction though

One of the biggest things that Tyrande threw at the Nigthborne was the fact they were content to hide away. They wanted to show they weren't cowards and do more than just sit in their little corner of the world, wanting to be a proper player in the ongoing events of Azeroth.

and get dragged into an ongoing war that has nothing to do with them.

Oh, you mean the war that started after they had signed up? Immediately after Legion, there were no open hostilities between the Horde and the Alliance. We saw the information that they were given, and they weren't told that Sylvanas was plotting to soon go on the offensive and raze an enemy capital.

They could have just as easily decided to create treaties and trade agreements with both Alliance and Horde.

How is being at risk of having both factions actively hostile towards you by failing the delicate negotiations that would keep both sides happy, the 'easy' option, instead of just allying with the faction that's welcoming and offering aid?

Or sought and alliance of sorts with Dalaran.

Dalaran is famous for it's neutrality, but it's also still a single, small city. They don't have holdings all around Azeroth. They aren't a big player in world events.

There wan't any reason whatsoever for them to come out of hiding, pledge their allegiance to an undead elf queen, and then get bogged down in a war that doesn't give them anything.

Other than no longer wanting to hide away - as doing so nearly doomed their race to mana addiction, and then the Legion - and wanting to join their Blood Elven brethren who were offering kinship and assistance in recovering from a devastating war, an upheaval in leadership and a city needing repairs.

[KrayZ33]

Dalaran is famous for it's neutrality, but it's also still a single, small city. They don't have holdings all around Azeroth. They aren't a big player in world events.

Why is Dalaran able to remain neutral, but Suramar can't possibly do so?
Considering that Dalaran is full of mages from all factions of the world. Their mana addiction is probably best cured/taken care of by the Kirin Tor which are themselves vivid arcane magic users.

[Geckoo]

at Blizzcon only addressed the idea of “I am alliance, my friend is horde, don’t want to roll alts, what do?” They did not fully address “I like dwarves, buddy likes trolls, want to play on the same side, don’t like playing alts, what do?”

Thinking that the second is possible when they stated that the first will not be possible is really self-delusional.

You are basically saying: Ok, so they don't want to do this simple thing that won't have any effect in terms of lore... but hey! they can still do this complex game changing thing that will change factions as we know them!

Deep down the whole cross-faction thing is quite simple: let friends play together.

Is not about removing, adding, merging or morphing factions or the races that belong to them.
Is not about peace, war or whatever. Lore has nothing to do with it.

It's just about improving the social interaction between players.
That the first choice you make when you create a character limits the story and lore you'll experience, determines the foes you'll fight in war mode... but does not limit the people you'll be able to play with.

[Mic_128]

Why is Dalaran able to remain neutral, but Suramar can't possibly do so?

Well for a start, Suramar wanted to be a big player in the future of Azeroth and Dalaran doesn't.

[Seranthor]

Ok so, ding-dong, unfortunately cross faction gameplay is dead, but I couldn’t help but notice that every answer about cross-factionisms at Blizzcon only addressed the idea of “I am alliance, my friend is horde, don’t want to roll alts, what do?” They did not fully address “I like dwarves, buddy likes trolls, want to play on the same side, don’t like playing alts, what do?”

Looking past the fact for a moment that the idea of the alt-less player is pretty much no longer supported in WoW, there is one angle that could still happen within what Ion has said, while still representing a significant change in regards to factional limitations.

Unless something was said that I did not catch, nothing that Ion said to gun down faction mechanical change killed the idea of uncoupling factions from races. In leaning into “agency,” and in confirming that Calia isn’t going horde, as well as basically ending allied races (lightforge undead) tied to BFA stories... there’s still an opening there.

There’s enough room for individual dissension, especially if Tyrande gets louder and Genn respectfully supports her right to her opinion, that “the singular champion of Azeroth” might be put in a position to “declare allegiance” (again, the tag line of BFA) regardless of race... once and for all.

Furthermore, they could simply uncouple faction change from race change, and the whole “they won’t do cross faction because microtransactions” angle is addressed.

I started BFA with a hunch that stories of dissention would lead to faction mechanical change, and while free flowing cross factional mechanics have been shot dead for now, permanent decisions to swap sides, with those sides fully seperated could still be in the cards.

After all... there are still those grey’ed out faction symbols at character select, and patch 8.3.5 to be accounted for.

I'm fairly certain that horse has been beaten so badly its long been glue.

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I know it's been said that you can't kill hope, but man. You are really reaching for your desired conclusion here.

I can not disagree with your assessment.

[KrayZ33]

Well for a start, Suramar wanted to be a big player in the future of Azeroth and Dalaran doesn't.

That would basically mean that Suramar can't be a big player on it's own, which I find to be rather unlikely considering their potency, knowledge in magic, and probably even more important - the location of their city.
I find it silly to assume an ancient civilization such as theirs isn't able to juggle politics and has to be reduced to a fledgling-city state.

[Mic_128]

I find it silly to assume an ancient civilization such as theirs isn't able to juggle politics

I didn't say they couldn't, I'm just saying it wouldn't be easier to do so, than join a faction that's inviting them.

[KrayZ33]

How is it easier, really - or at least, how does that decision make sense from any point but gameplay reasons.
By formerly entering alliances they are bound to allegiance to a leader they have had no interest in.

They could join and talk/trade with their blood-elven brethren by not joining the horde and befriend them too. I really don't see it for any lore reason whatsoever.
It might have been easier to actually do that and do the same with Dalaran and a faction from the Alliance and thus secure peace as factions inside the Alliance or Horde would be hard pressed to not join any hostile activities against Suramar as they are friends and partners to them.

Sylvanas: "the Horde is interested in gaining influence over Suramar, we'll seize their territory"
Bloodelves: "no we will not? we will not join this effort and attack our friends and former brethren"

Sylvanas would get a popup asking: "Risk civil war inside the Horde - Yes/No?"

Same thing with the Alliance....whoever had the biggest say in the negotiations there (I played Horde)
I doubt that they are many who seek to do any harm to them or consider it worth the effort to do so.

Especially since hostile actions WOULD actually drive them to the opposite faction. Them staying neutral and gaining some of their benefits would be better than being denied all of it by showing hostile intent.... as Tyrande has proven, something like that would deny their faction anything Suramar had to offer.

[Syegfryed]

All of which do not require factions. These are why nations create alliances and treaties. Before the Alliance was a thing, Stormwind and Ironforge already enjoyed such a relationship, for example.

but in times of war, factions are an easily solution,it gives commitment

Take Suramar, for example. What incentive did they actually have for joining the Horde?

again, bad writers,they joined for help and protection, alone they would perish by other factions

that would be the reason, but again, bad writers

Very much the plot. Because it was nonsense for the Night Elves to join the Alliance to begin with.

nelves are egocentric racist they were attacking orcs in ashenvale, orcs strike back, they could do nothing alone, get help from the alliance to deal with, there is no nonsense with that

The same way it was nonsense for the Forsaken to join the Horde.

same logic, it was shit,but the logic is there

In WoW we absolutely have not had this. At all. Every conflict is centered around red vs blue.

it is centered around factions and the races, majory of the races are there because they had beef against other race, thats one of the reasons they joined the factions to get revenge

Worgens by example joined the alliance for protection, support and revenge

because the plot demanded it.

as all things are, you are basically wanting "individual stories" because the plot would demand too

And you do this by taking a step back and having nations have conflicts, just like in the real world. It creates and evolving and living story that can change as you move along, instead of having to reset to the status quo time and again just to maintain the faction facade.

you can do that with factions as before, why horde and alliance cannot be like nations then? you are asking something simple impossible by the quantity of races, it would be a unsatisfactory mess

Dude... No. Obviously not "just like that". You craft a story to make it happen. You write in a conflict and then let it play out. I was merely giving an example. Right now, because of factions, it can't happen.

it can play out, it don't just need to be from the same faction

Again... No... Dude... No... Not for no reason. You craft a story that provides reasons for everything. You create conflict and then have it play out. Stop being deliberately dense. Right now, we have the same conflicts happening again and again. Ad infinitum. The same races, having the same battle. Because factions demand that the same groups keep fighting. If we strip that layer back, and we go with Nations instead, we have a different mechanic for conflict. We have groups where treaties and alliances actually mean something.

you say im being dense on purpose, yet you are on purpose ignoring all the minor racial conflicts and say "its just red vs blue bro, thats just ironic

Ask yourself: What makes more sense. For a nation to want to decide it's own fate, be involved in the battles that matter to it and its people, to be in charge of their own armies? Or for a nation to simply give control of their armies and do whatever a barely grown man says, just cuz? Or for them to give control of their armies to a clearly evil undead creature because a troll spirit told their dying troll leader to do so?

you want the factions system to end just because the story right now is crap, when something has a problem you fix it, you don't cut it off entirely just because you don't like it

A faction is a nation on his own, they should focus more on racial conflict yes, but it don't need to remove the factions for that to happen

But no, please keep the game stagnant and repeating the same story over and over again because you have some weird alliance phobia.

Again, fix the the problem of the story, removing the factions will not solve the damn polem, the problem would remain, and even worse cause it would be a fucking mess

[Revamp Man]

The hope for it ain't dead

Just expecting it to happen anytime soon is like expecting commercial moon travel in a year

[dcc626]

The hope for it ain't dead

Just expecting it to happen anytime soon is like expecting commercial moon travel in a year

or accountwide essences, or pathfinder to go away....

[plz delete account]

Total war is the way forward. After all it’s fucking WARcraft.

WC3 says hello. and the multiple Horde splits say hello.

[Santti]

Where did this weird surge of people talking about Horde and Alliance players playing together even came from? At one point nothing, and then BOOM, threads about it popping all over the place. Is this one of those things the leaked expansions promised?

Expecting Blizzard to make away with one of WoW's core identities is just something that's not going to happen. Even if it would make sense, lorewise. Personally, I don't really care too much, but it's not hard to see people actually care about the factions and their integrity. If you don't see that, you are an Alliance scrub!

[rrayy]

Ok so, ding-dong, unfortunately cross faction gameplay is dead, but I couldn’t help but notice that every answer about cross-factionisms at Blizzcon only addressed the idea of “I am alliance, my friend is horde, don’t want to roll alts, what do?” They did not fully address “I like dwarves, buddy likes trolls, want to play on the same side, don’t like playing alts, what do?”

Looking past the fact for a moment that the idea of the alt-less player is pretty much no longer supported in WoW, there is one angle that could still happen within what Ion has said, while still representing a significant change in regards to factional limitations.

Unless something was said that I did not catch, nothing that Ion said to gun down faction mechanical change killed the idea of uncoupling factions from races. In leaning into “agency,” and in confirming that Calia isn’t going horde, as well as basically ending allied races (lightforge undead) tied to BFA stories... there’s still an opening there.

There’s enough room for individual dissension, especially if Tyrande gets louder and Genn respectfully supports her right to her opinion, that “the singular champion of Azeroth” might be put in a position to “declare allegiance” (again, the tag line of BFA) regardless of race... once and for all.

Furthermore, they could simply uncouple faction change from race change, and the whole “they won’t do cross faction because microtransactions” angle is addressed.

I started BFA with a hunch that stories of dissention would lead to faction mechanical change, and while free flowing cross factional mechanics have been shot dead for now, permanent decisions to swap sides, with those sides fully seperated could still be in the cards.

After all... there are still those grey’ed out faction symbols at character select, and patch 8.3.5 to be accounted for.

They already said that faction would stay put and made it clear why they would.

[bigbleach]

Ok so, ding-dong, unfortunately cross faction gameplay is dead, but I couldn’t help but notice that every answer about cross-factionisms at Blizzcon only addressed the idea of “I am alliance, my friend is horde, don’t want to roll alts, what do?” They did not fully address “I like dwarves, buddy likes trolls, want to play on the same side, don’t like playing alts, what do?”

Looking past the fact for a moment that the idea of the alt-less player is pretty much no longer supported in WoW, there is one angle that could still happen within what Ion has said, while still representing a significant change in regards to factional limitations.

Unless something was said that I did not catch, nothing that Ion said to gun down faction mechanical change killed the idea of uncoupling factions from races. In leaning into “agency,” and in confirming that Calia isn’t going horde, as well as basically ending allied races (lightforge undead) tied to BFA stories... there’s still an opening there.

There’s enough room for individual dissension, especially if Tyrande gets louder and Genn respectfully supports her right to her opinion, that “the singular champion of Azeroth” might be put in a position to “declare allegiance” (again, the tag line of BFA) regardless of race... once and for all.

Furthermore, they could simply uncouple faction change from race change, and the whole “they won’t do cross faction because microtransactions” angle is addressed.

I started BFA with a hunch that stories of dissention would lead to faction mechanical change, and while free flowing cross factional mechanics have been shot dead for now, permanent decisions to swap sides, with those sides fully seperated could still be in the cards.

After all... there are still those grey’ed out faction symbols at character select, and patch 8.3.5 to be accounted for.

Them listening to people like you is why we got LFD and LFR. Factions have always been a thing and I personally don't see a need to change it. You and your homies can talk it out and I'm sure one or more of you would be willing to reroll to play together. I've had to make that decision and its the only reason I know a bit about the alliance side of lore. However, I am a hordie and will always be. They all quit, I moved back, I'll never change faction for friends again. I think wow in general would be less interesting if there were no factions.