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  1. #241
    Stood in the Fire
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    Raiding in essence has to be fun.
    Something that can be achieved through a lfr has zero feeling of satisfaction when you do clear it.
    Raiding and getting deeper and deeper in the raid throughout several weeks or months before the boss can be farmed.
    But when that boss finally goes down. It'll be alot more enjoyable than a lfr.
    Nowadays you don't have to raid to see the content.
    And you don't have to raid for the gear either. Just some dungeons and you're raid ready.

    A low influx, if any from new players, and the long term players growing tired of it only helps to further lower the raiding pool.
    Guess that's why they catered too those who just want to see it. But it steals some satisfaction from those who put in the hard work.
    I doubt there's a real answer to this.
    Lokann ogar!
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  2. #242
    High Overlord MCitra's Avatar
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    Raid sets and the removal of titanforged and i would go back to raiding again. I do not understand it at all how it got passed having someone go LFR and get better gear than hc or mythic. it's beyond me.
    I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work

  3. #243
    I would certainly like raid class sets back, mostly for more mogging options that match theme of my main. I always joke in guild chat that removal of class sets is a biggest Warlock nerf in BFA.

    LFR, on the other hand, is fine. I have no problem with casuals having story mode raiding. I think it could be a nice touch if some sort of Mythic-only boss make appearance again, though.

  4. #244
    How about Mythic raiding have a chance to drop WoW Tokens ... that you can either use or sell on AH.

    Make it the only place that r/l rewards are given for doing content.

    I think THAT would be cool

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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    How about Mythic raiding have a chance to drop WoW Tokens ... that you can either use or sell on AH.

    Make it the only place that r/l rewards are given for doing content.

    I think THAT would be cool
    lul... that's actually hilarious. Imagine Cutting Edge giving a WoW Token. The whine would be legendary.

  6. #246
    Removing tier had a crucial impact to a lot of people I know. Really, it has more to do with the concept of sets more than tier itself. Sets gave specific outlets (Raids and PVP) unique effects on their gear that could not be obtained elsewhere. While PvP sets were usually not game changing (although still impactful), tier sets could drastically change how your spec operated (they could also be the most boring things i.e. 2p 5% increased crit for xyz Spell, 4p 20% crit damage for same spell).

    I would like to see blizz bring sets back in some fashion. I wouldn't mind the idea of an item that enhanced a piece of gear, making it a part of a set. Different content could drop tokens that were associated with different sets. This would be perfect if blizz didn't want to go through the trouble of making spec specific sets ever again, because they could just make generalized ones (they could maybe have things like Visions of perfection, where they tied to a specs major CD or something to make it feel more Class-based). They could have a couple of different sets per content type, in order to freshen it up.

    WQ/Emissaries could have very basic sets, such as increased secondaries, reduced damage taken by a small %, increased move speed. PvP sets would be what they used to be before, mostly endurance based with the occasional utility/offense boost. Raid would have the most interesting/compelling bonuses, typically centered around single target and possibly light aoe/utility. M+ could have more AoE/speed/healing focused bonuses:

    Some Spec Specific M+ Examples (I know, but still)

    "When your Chain Lightning hits at least 4 targets, your next Earthquake does 20% more damage and reduces enemy movement speed by 10%. Max 5 stacks."

    "Every 3rd Whirlwind empowers your next Rampage, causing it deal an additional 50% damage when striking extra targets, and giving your party Blood-Soaked Rage, increasing Leech for 8 seconds."

    "Taking damage from more than 3 sources while under the effects of Shield of the Righteous has a chance to make your next Light of the Protector heal for an additional 25% and heal all nearby allies for 50% of the amount healed.

  7. #247
    Tier sets. Hey, if you think it will hurt Mythic+, I'm okay with only letting the sets work in the raid....but PLEASE bring back tier sets.

  8. #248
    Herald of the Titans OnlineSamantha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnagexz View Post
    You can throw buzz-words all you like. But again, if all you need to do to make a particular behavior go away is type /ignore [playername] then WHY would you not?

    It's illogical, I said she chose because if not then she is either dumb or a coward. (does that sound better?) Its like if something in her house caught fire and instead of putting it out she just stood there and watched everything go up in flames. Then she turns around and goes, "Oh the fire is evil it burned everything down.". Sure, the fire is bad, but that does NOT change the fact that she chose to do nothing. People seriously need to take responsibility for their actions or inaction as is the case here.

    There is not shame in /ignore I've done it plenty of times to harassers, no sexism, you don't need a penis to learn of that command's use/existence. If you put your buzzword down for a sec and thought, then you'd realizing that instead of blaming her I am pointing out that she HAD the power to stop it all along.

    And for the record same thing happens there too. I've seen in happen in a few FCs there as well, people are people everywhere you go, assholes too. This mentality of helplessness that you encourage isn't helping, its better for people to know that they can DO something about their situation than to label themselves a "victim" and play a pity-party.
    Except when it's not just random people that do it. What happens if it's a guild member or a PUG raid member? Suddenly it's not so easy to just ignore and move on, you have to go out of your way to find somewhere else to be if the people around you won't stand up for you. Also if you think I used any buzzwords there then you really have to expand your vocabulary a bit. And it's not helplessness, it's being fed up with assholes everywhere you go. It's almost like choosing to stop playing the game is still doing something. If she chose no action then saying she didn't do anything would be an appropriate response, but she decided it was easier and better to just stop playing completely and go somewhere else. And yeah I'm sure there are assholes in FFXIV too but in my experience their numbers are much lesser than in WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    He is right, you have all the tools to stop the harassment but somehow you chose to not use them. Its not just sexism dude, i've met a lot annoying people over the years which i simply blocked. Fortunately It was enough to stop but the moment if anyone would be more persistent I would send report to blizzard.

    It like saying it's all people fault mugging/robbing crime exists and police should not be needed at all, well sorry to disappoint you.



    That is how it was for a long time, unless blizzard will make mythic more accessible.
    First off don't call me dude. Second off, read my response above if you want. For your second post, I'm not sure what you're even saying or how it's relevant at all to what I said. I'm not talking strictly about Mythic raiding, I'm talking about any form of organized raiding.
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  9. #249
    It's already rewarded out the ass. The simple fact of the matter is that you cannot bribe people into it because for many it isn't fun.

    Fights drag on far too long, the graphics are a mess of stand in this but don't stand in that and it's just a bunch of single use memorization.

    To make raiding more appealing it needs to go faster, not be filled up with time consuming trash and be made fun, if such a thing is possible.

    Flex as it was in MoP is the closest thing I've seen to that and of course, they got rid of that.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Doesn't this just mean raiding is bad as far as game play and enjoyment are concerned? You have to make the rewards for everything else inferior to entice people to raid? Why not make raiding more appealing instead of breaking everything else?
    By that logic, people never wanted to do any of it though. Blizzard themselves have admitted the reason for the 15 ilvl increase between difficulties is because people only do content if it feels rewarding.

    So essentially, going by your logic of "If it isn't done without a reward it isn't fun" then 99% of this game isn't fun.

    The reality is, people do whatever is easiest with the greatest reward. You can't force people into harder content unless they want to do it without a strong incentive. It's the same reason that Warmode failed so horribly in the beginning of WoW and had to be heavily modified. It's the same reason the Battle of Naz'jatar event failed and had to be heavily modified. They weren't rewarding enough to the minority and therefore just weren't done.

  11. #251
    The Lightbringer
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    At this point just seperate dungeon and raid gear and remove forging already. Like reintroduce tier setbonusses that then actually helps you in the raid instead of all over the place and do the same with dungeon sets. They're onto it with the nazj and EP bonusses on benthic but the source of the gear itself is the issue to me. Those things should be from the raid itself and not the grinding zone. For me they don't need 12 sets when 4 will do and they're too cheap to hire extra manpower to cut it anyway. It's the itemization that steals the picture anyway and this continued focus on smaller group content is not doing any favors helping the raiding community.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MCitra View Post
    Raid sets and the removal of titanforged and i would go back to raiding again. I do not understand it at all how it got passed having someone go LFR and get better gear than hc or mythic. it's beyond me.
    It passed because they want the individual to be in focus instead of the team-effort it took to get it. It's the same issue with mythic endboss only dropping a single mount each week. It's a serious test on everyone involved only this forging bs puts the screws on before the raiding even starts. Suffice to say group-content has been in a downward spiral ever since from this additional gambling-layer aspect being introduced to the game.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-11-11 at 10:34 PM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    At this point just seperate dungeon and raid gear and remove forging already.
    As someone who has benefited way too much from TF (I'm iLvl 446 and I've not got past 3/8H Palace) - I agree.

    What I'd like to see is horizontal benefits to replace TF (e.g. more speed and tertiary or utility options on gear).

    Maybe up the M+ cap on increasing iLvl (from 10 to say 15) ?

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  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    At this point just seperate dungeon and raid gear and remove forging already.
    I dislike that concept.
    I already dislike Benthic gear due to that, if a given item is good, it should be good everywhere and not just in a given zone because <reasons>.
    Sure, something like the Aberration belt is fine in concept and would add a choice to some dungeons, but simply having those specials effects only work in a given area for no other reason than balance is just bad.

    It's already something i dislike on how they solved PvP, how your character is suddenly totally different once you enter PvP combat or how your character suddenly forgets spells by zoning into a dungeon.

    It's one of the minor things i've started to appreciate about classic, there is no special rule or stuff on how things work, a spell that works in the outdoor the same as it works in a dungeon or in PvP, my character feels consistent.
    in BfA, my character is anything but consistent.

    You're in outdoor area and have wm on? You suddenly have all those skills!
    Enter a dungeon where this shit would be really useful? Too bad, it's gone.
    Oh look, that Azerite trait heals you for a bunch of HP!
    Oh, some rogue stabbed you, now it heals 80% less, too bad.
    You're in Nazjatar? Better equip those benthic items!
    But not in Mechagon, why would you wear them in Mechagon? Switch to better pieces!

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Following that logic, i would assume that if a healer quits, you're obviously looking for another healer, same goes for ranged dps.
    Not really, the fact melee spots don't appear as often means that guilds are more likely to just not recruit a new melee and replace him with a ranged or cut that spot out of the roster, while it doesn't happen with ranged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Again, it feeds into the issue above, if you're a damn good player, people will take you,
    If you're a damn good player and a melee, guilds will still take a mediocre warlock / mage over you, at least half of the time. And that's what the problem is, the inherent unfairness. People talk how unfair is titanforging etc. but don't see anything wrong that crappy warlock will take the spot over the most talented enhancement shaman 90% of the time. If your stance is "some unfairness is acceptable" then it's a matter of principle / attitude not whether it exists or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Any halfway intelligent raid had their melees stick on the boss and only had them help out if the ranged couldn't handle it.
    Because moving out of Melee range is obviously far more punishing for a Melee than moving for your average ranged spec.
    Which means either you slotted so few melee so the ranged can deal with the mechanics alone (few melee slots = not melee friendly), or you had to use several of melee players to do the job as well despite bigger dps penalty because stuff had specific "minimal amount of people required to cover all the spots", cakes left a lengthy debuff on mythic, etc. It wasn't one of these mechanics where you sent 3 hunters to deal with something and rest of the raid could forget a mechanic existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That happened because of RBG.
    Because Mass grip+Vortex+Beam was a gamebreaker combo, you couldn't play RBG without at least one Balance Druid and a DK, the more you had, the more often you could pull off this combo.
    In that case it's very stupid because RBG is probably THE least participated in competitive content that exists in wow. Way more people raid, mythic raid, do m+, arenas, unrated bgs, basically anything else, RBGs are a niche within a niche to the point most medium to high rated teams constantly face each other because there's barely anybody playing this and 600 rating difference between matched teams is not unheard of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because Rogues are the melees that require a hand? Really?
    Let's be honest, the only melees that are currently screwed are the ones like Enhance, Feral, SV, etc., not rogues.
    Yeah, true, Rogues don't need a hand, that's why there should be more utility and especially on the classes that aren't already a must-have. And nope, not every melee can go ranged with a press of a button, dks and paladins say hi, and going tank doesn't matter because tank spots are even fewer than melee spots, plus current expansion tank meta was monk - warrior - monk, so that didn't help either. And classes that can tank or heal shouldn't be left in a state their dps spec exists only for solo questing and because they're "hybrids" their raid spots are reserved for healer / tank specs and their dps counterparts can be useless.

    And I still don't understand why demon hunters and monks were given special treatment they provide a raid buff that can't even be substituted with a scroll unlike the warrior shout, only the newest and shiniest classes deserve mandatory raid spot? Yes, ferals, enhance, ret, dk definitely need more reasons to be brought into the raid. And survival... no idea why Blizzard even decided to make it a melee. We already had so many melee classes, all classes added to the game are melee and zero ranged (dk, dh, monk).

    Imo they should *at least* bring back buffs to every class / spec but ensure each buff is covered by diverse amount of specs. But the issue remains most of these buffs are passive or fire and forget and that doesn't ensure melee get engaging gameplay and provide anything besides dps + buff. Stuff like mass grip and grounding totem are just a few examples of utility that was used in raids in the past until it got pruned.

  15. #255
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I dislike that concept.
    I already dislike Benthic gear due to that, if a given item is good, it should be good everywhere and not just in a given zone because <reasons>.
    Sure, something like the Aberration belt is fine in concept and would add a choice to some dungeons, but simply having those specials effects only work in a given area for no other reason than balance is just bad.

    It's already something i dislike on how they solved PvP, how your character is suddenly totally different once you enter PvP combat or how your character suddenly forgets spells by zoning into a dungeon.

    It's one of the minor things i've started to appreciate about classic, there is no special rule or stuff on how things work, a spell that works in the outdoor the same as it works in a dungeon or in PvP, my character feels consistent.
    in BfA, my character is anything but consistent.

    You're in outdoor area and have wm on? You suddenly have all those skills!
    Enter a dungeon where this shit would be really useful? Too bad, it's gone.
    Oh look, that Azerite trait heals you for a bunch of HP!
    Oh, some rogue stabbed you, now it heals 80% less, too bad.
    You're in Nazjatar? Better equip those benthic items!
    But not in Mechagon, why would you wear them in Mechagon? Switch to better pieces!
    It's not bad, it's magic and bloodlust in a videogame. Put your rpg-fantasy-hat on. There's numerous ways to go about it elegantly but it'll always boil down to the fact that it's only done for the purpose of balance. -which is nonexistent in classic and not what this thread is about.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    It passed because they want the individual to be in focus instead of the team-effort it took to get it. It's the same issue with mythic endboss only dropping a single mount each week.
    Which is bullshit because all it promotes is people looting the mount and fucking off and top guilds selling boosts.

    If it was to reward effort and team play every participant would get a "mount shard" and after 20 kills within the current expansion would collect enough to transform them into a mount. Also 20 kills could be too many, just make it 10 or so, it's still 2+ months of farm if you want incentives for people to refarm the cleared raid.

    But that would put a damper on the beloved boost selling that pushes the token sales, and actually reward effort and dedication instead of dumb luck, can't have that.

  17. #257
    or, if you wanted to formulate the question honestly: why should the play style I ENJOY give better rewards than what other people enjoy
    m+ were introduced as a way of progression for people who dont want to or dont have time to raid, and their reward (apart from weekly chest) is on par with HC raid, so incentive for raids is better gear (from mythic raid), and also some cosmetic rewards, why should there be anything more?

    dunno about you, but i do both m+ and raids bcs i LIKE IT, i enjoy it, and frankly, if you dont enjoy one of them you shouldnt do it... people will say you have to do m+ to get some items for raid, do you really HAVE to? it helps, but its not required in any way, you can go into normal raid and gear there for hc without ever setting foot in m+ dungeon...

  18. #258
    There is nothing you could include to get casuals to want to be devoted to raiding.

  19. #259
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealpeni View Post
    Raiding in essence has to be fun.
    And this is the crux of the issue: raiding imo hasn't been fun for quite some time. Legion was quite hit and miss. EN was meh, ToV wasn't much better. I loved Nighthold, only to be !@#$ing annoyed by Tomb of Soakgeras. Fortunately Antorus was quite neat, and left me with a good impression overall.

    But in BfA I'm growing tired of the way raids are designed, especially with that fetish of stuffing the last bosses with a bunch of overlapping mechanics. G'huun and Aszhara are the worst offenders imo.
    "This world is a prison!"

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Not really, the fact melee spots don't appear as often means that guilds are more likely to just not recruit a new melee and replace him with a ranged or cut that spot out of the roster, while it doesn't happen with ranged.
    That's just guesswork on your part.
    If you lose something that was working, you try to replace with a proper substitute.

    If your raid is too heavy on melees, then some of them were most likely benched to begin with.

    So you're basically trying to just twist that in your favour.
    Also, supply and demand plays a big role, spots for melees have way more possible applicants than ranged, thus they're gone much quicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    If you're a damn good player and a melee, guilds will still take a mediocre warlock / mage over you, at least half of the time. And that's what the problem is, the inherent unfairness. People talk how unfair is titanforging etc. but don't see anything wrong that crappy warlock will take the spot over the most talented enhancement shaman 90% of the time. If your stance is "some unfairness is acceptable" then it's a matter of principle / attitude not whether it exists or not.
    No guild takes a shit player because of their class.
    This is not Vanilla / TBC where almost any spec can be played in auto pilot mode and that does 90% of your dps, especially if you fail to execute mechanics in the current mythic enviroment you're nothing but a baggage on the raid.

    A raid full of melees has a better chance at killing bosses like Court (or Even M Azshara) than a raid full of crappy players but with FotM classes, because the current encounter design is pretty serious about proper execution.

    This issue what you're describing wasn't even truly solved when Blizzard took the "Bring the player, not the class" to the most extreme point.
    There is no magic fix to that problem, don't act like there is one, it's been that since the game came out.

    Like honestly, that complaint of yours here could just come straight out of Vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Which means either you slotted so few melee so the ranged can deal with the mechanics alone (few melee slots = not melee friendly), or you had to use several of melee players to do the job as well despite bigger dps penalty because stuff had specific "minimal amount of people required to cover all the spots", cakes left a lengthy debuff on mythic
    Yeah, let's also not forget about spinning laser that melees could just virtually ignore and so forth.
    Nighthold was a raid that heavily favored melees, that's just how it was, even trying to shoehorn that victimization of melees into there is just bogus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    In that case it's very stupid because RBG is probably THE least participated in competitive content that exists in wow.
    And some players don't care about your story and how you struggle as melee to get into mythic raids.
    Point simply is, that combo completely ruined RBG's.

    And if a single ability ruins an entire game mode, i think Blizzard was right to cut it.
    It's not like DK's are useless garbage because they don't have mass grip anymore.

    Truth just is, a lot of melees are terrible because they're put right next rogues and DH, which are by comparison utterly bonkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    And nope, not every melee can go ranged with a press of a button, dks and paladins say hi
    Did i say that?
    I didn't.

    I said "to some extent" and even the examples i've provided were that had that option.

    And that's going to be my last reply, first off because it has really just turned you into moaning over how melees are being treated unfairly, which also barely has anything to do with the topic at hand anymore.

    If you want to play a mode that favors melee, try M+.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    It's not bad, it's magic and bloodlust in a videogame. Put your rpg-fantasy-hat on.
    You're mistaking logic for consistency.
    Simply because magic exists in a world, you just shouldn't entirely discard consistency.

    Because that also affects gameplay, as i constantly have to re adjust to a given situation based on the enviroment i'm in for no other reason.

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