What rewards does raiding need to make it more appealing?

[Krek01]

Bring back class armour from raids. Leave out tier bonuses if you want, but bring back multiple armour appearances.

Also, bring back Legendaries, Artifact-style appearance unlocks and quest chains. Legion's raids were always being run, not just the latest raid. When was the last time you saw Uldir being run?

I totally agree about getting class armor appearances. I miss having classes looking like the classes they should be. I hate the homogenization of the armor we're getting now (the warriors, DKs, and paladins all looking the same, for instance).

Also wouldn't mind getting weapons and armor that were never released to the players (like the green Tier 11 DK armor, or weapons from WotLK that never got to see the light of day.)

[evertonbelmontt]

This is an RPG, so most people care about the gear first.

Raiding should have the best gear in the entire game for PVE. The effort put into it doesn't reflect what you get Gear wise, at least in Mythic. Some people may claim azerite and trinkets are there, and it is, but I'm 6/8M and 2250 I.O. and a Raid Leader myself and some of our members don't have the trinkets besides having killed the bosses 5 or 6 times EACH. Sometimes even more. Bad luck, bad itemization/distribution or whatever. M+ on the other hand rewards way too much because you can repeat it non stop.

Then there's the problem that benthic being better than mythic quality gear for raiding, that should never have happened and Blizzard admited it with the socket being an error of their part.

Mounts, sets, pets, all that helps, but ultimatelly it is about not only loot, but FREQUENCY of that loot. How many slots you need gear for and how easy can you get it. (Imagine all your bis are on the last 3 boss, most people don't even try it).

[PaladinBash]

I'd say bring back tier sets but that's another thing that Blizzard always fucks up hard. Azerite is bad enough. Caving to the M+ box farmers and giving them the same ilvl as Mythic gear again next patch was a huge mistake. For once I saw pages and pages of crying about how they have to actually raid to get gear, how it's "unfair" that M+ be a challenge of skill rather than farming high ilvl gear like a chimp chained to a bicycle for a couple of weeks and how they can't afford boosts of raids rather than dungeons that get spammed anyway. That right there told me all you needed to make raids relevant- better gear with higher ilvl.

For a brief moment Blizzard actually made a move in the right direction of limiting the importance of M+ and the self-importance of its try-hard playerbase. Sadly they caved again to crying and raiding will remain irrelevant again.

[woopytywoop]

People gave up on this game in general and not only raiding.

What I think is the biggest problem with current wow/reward/content design is that everyone gets forced too often to do content they don't enjoy.

More than half my raid team (including me) just got burnt out.
For my class, 2/3 BiS pieces drop from arena, something I don't enjoy at all anymore since legion.
Besides that I need to do arena/bg's/faceroll dailies to get essences for my spec.

While it's cool that people who do all aspects of the game have an advantage, it's just not cool that the game forces you to do content you don't enjoy at all because there are just no alternatives.

This is the first expansion since ever I just didn't play any alts at all and just raid log.

Haven't set foot in m+ since I got an azerite for the 2 slots which were good enough because the raid alternatives sucked.

Don't get ring upgrades in raid because of my 2 415socket ones I got during BoAD and all raid rings suck. cba nolifing m+ to hopefully get a 430 one with a socket. I have got 1 455 ring in inventory and a 450 one which are both downgrades.

Anyway, I realize I'm too old for this game by now and blizz tries to cater new players. When I just think of the fact that our team is forced to take a DH to raid because of their debuff...

Honestly I even don't care anymore for next patch, because when it launches I'll tell my raid that I won't nolife some trivial faceroll content to replace all my gear in the first week by some kind of bentic retarded items which will be bis for the entire tier. Cba doing same m+ again just to get the same items in higher ilvl. I'll just tell them, "see you next expansion"

basically this sums it up for me why this game lost it's appeal to me.

[Free]

Can't raid log anymore, thanks for all the chores Ion. Quit

[kaminaris]

1) Cata and MoP data tell us the sub numbers for 2/3 expansions later... How?

If you don't know then you truly do not know of statistics.

2) The API bug was admitted, by the person who supposedly found the bug, to be inaccurate.

Of course it was inacurrate but it was still accurate enough to figure out more or less.

3) Realmpop data has never been accurate for population numbers. Max level is not the only level.

Still better than nothing, and even if is not accurate, you can use it to estimate difference between expansions of how many people left.

4) Common knowledge of what, exactly? Without facts to support it, your 'common knowledge' could also just be known as a 'baseless assumption' just as easily.

Of that in each new year there are less and less players than before. It is a damn common knowledge.

5) Assuming any of that chart is even accurate, it still estimates that BFA has had multiple times where it's population was near to if not equal to Legion. (And in some cases, higher than the last reported WoD number.) So that doesn't actually help you, and in fact helps me. Nevermind that it's data points ended a year ago, during a lull between content patches. (Not even getting into 'google searches' as if it somehow proves how many players are playing...)

So... Despite you enjoying BFA more, you seem to be completely deluded into thinking estimates are reality. And you claimed to know stats.

So lets summarize:
1. You don't know basic statistics
2. You don't know how to read charts
3. You are delusional thinking BfA has even close amount of players than legion did.

[Beefkow]

Raiding just needs access to the best gear in the game (along side with gladiator pvp) and tier sets. Titanforge can go but warforge can stay, since a warforged piece from 1 difficulty won't surpass the next difficulty.

Something like WOTLK, 10 man/25 man 10 heroic/25 heroic or SoO.

[kaminaris]

Raiding just needs access to the best gear in the game (along side with gladiator pvp) and tier sets. Titanforge can go but warforge can stay, since a warforged piece from 1 difficulty won't surpass the next difficulty.

Something like WOTLK, 10 man/25 man 10 heroic/25 heroic or SoO.

That won't help at all. If someone doesn't raid now, he won't even if ilvl will be over 9000 while plebs will get 100 ilvl from other activities.
I know it's hard to grasp concept but currently raid HAVE best gear in game.
Titanforging had LITERALLY ZERO impact on mythic raiding.

Problem is only logistics, having 20 people, coordinating them etc. Nobody want's to do that shit anymore.

What could help:
1. Reducing team size to 10-15. Much easier to maintain
2. Removing server barrier for mythic.
3. Maybe removing stupid locks for mythic.
4. Removing week lockout for heroic/normal. Yes I said it. M+ is farmable now and will reward higher than heroic gear. So why keep lockout on raid bosses? (maybe keep weekly lockout for mythic but in heroic style so you can actually take anyone to fill up rooster).

[huth]

Problem is only logistics, having 20 people, coordinating them etc. Nobody want's to do that shit anymore.

I've said that 25 pages ago or so. The problem isn't incentives, it's requirements. No amount of incentives will suddenly allow people to ignore the requirements.

[Beefhammer]

Raiding should reward the best gear. Currently you can get this by doing literally anything in the game, thats why raids are kinda redundant

Honestly though, If you want a reliable way to get the bets gear raiding is really the best and fastest way. Someone running WQs can get lucky and get some high ilvl gear but it is not a reliable way to do that nor is it even guaranteed. M+ rewards dungeon gear, so if you are looking for specific raid trinkets or raid Azerite gear, you cannot get those there. Outside of a couple of items, the better itemized gear and items still come from raids. And still, the LFR player could get it too, but the fact still remains that raiding is the most efficient way to get the best gear.

As someone who has no issues with exclusivity in games, even MMOs where you pay a subscription, I actually welcomed LFR and like the concept of M+ and titanforging. It's nice for those that really do not want to raid to have something to look forward to. As much as people complain here, it keeps people engaged since there is always a possibility for an upgrade. Have they taken some aspects of it too far? Quite possibly, but i still think the idea of always shaving an opportunity to enhance your character just by playing is good.

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That won't help at all. If someone doesn't raid now, he won't even if ilvl will be over 9000 while plebs will get 100 ilvl from other activities.
I know it's hard to grasp concept but currently raid HAVE best gear in game.
Titanforging had LITERALLY ZERO impact on mythic raiding.

Problem is only logistics, having 20 people, coordinating them etc. Nobody want's to do that shit anymore.

What could help:
1. Reducing team size to 10-15. Much easier to maintain
2. Removing server barrier for mythic.
3. Maybe removing stupid locks for mythic.
4. Removing week lockout for heroic/normal. Yes I said it. M+ is farmable now and will reward higher than heroic gear. So why keep lockout on raid bosses? (maybe keep weekly lockout for mythic but in heroic style so you can actually take anyone to fill up rooster).

1) Agree. I would go so far as to say make Mythic 10 man.I know in WotLK, 10 man was easy mode, but in Cata and MoP, 10 man was more brutal than 25 man on many fights because mistakes were magnified and 1 person dying typically meant a wipe. Where in 25 man raids, you could on most fights lose 3 sometimes 4 players to no ill effect. Reducing the size to 10 man would be ideal for most people interested in Mythic raiding that cannot or have a hard time now.

2) I see no issues with this. More players on smaller or dead servers will have opportunities, as well as it increases the overall pool of pepole.

3 & 4) I think the lockouts need to stay in place. As seen throughout history, people have no self control and if one guild is running 7 heroics a week to gear up, everyone else may feel inclined to do the same in the spirit of fair competition. However, I though lockouts for heroic raids only prevent you from getting gear not from stepping back in. As for M+, I'm not sure how it works now, but I would be in favor of everyone getting an item from your first keyed run that week, then every subsequent higher key you complete that item upgrades to the appropriate ilvl for that key level. Then you get a second item with your cache. This might put less emphasis on using M+ as gearing up fro raids and more for what it was intended for as a way for small group non raiders to have challenging content.

Just some thoughts from someone on the outside look at these things.

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I've said that 25 pages ago or so. The problem isn't incentives, it's requirements. No amount of incentives will suddenly allow people to ignore the requirements.

Just look at how many people did Kharazan and ZA compared to the 40 and 20 man raids in Vanilla and the non Gruul/Mags 25 man raids. Way more people did the 10 mans because it was easier to coordinate. large raids is just an anchor of the past holding MMOs back.

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I can't think of any reward that would make go back to raiding. It is just too time consuming at a level that would interest me.


I had a great guild where raiding worked for us. Fun times and ofc frustrating times. Yes, we did it for the rewarded gear (BiS) but also for the sense of accomplishment.

The ship has sailed for me....but there is even less a chance I will enter the cesspool of mythic+ PUGs. I either can do that kind of content with friends that succeed or fail together and not be toxic to each other or I don't do it at all.

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Which rewards in raids mattered at what time in WoW? Is this about Mythic+ rewarding gear close to mythic raid gear?

The problem here is, that people in previous x-pacs hated that they were "forced" to do highest content with 19 others and asked for a way to do it with smaller groups of close friends.

I guess a case of "Blizzard listened to the wrong people". But if it is about this issue, then yeah...call me old fashioned. The king of activity should reward the most exclusive and best stuff. Be that 40 man raids in Classic or 20 man mythic nowadays.

Just an opinion...I am aware of the counter arguments how 5 people overcoming a crazy challenge can be as much of an achievement as 20 ppl overcoming one.

Apparently the wrong people are the majority of players.

[Again we return]

I would argue none not everyone should be raiding. The fact the game has lost control of its reward structure is the larger issue but good luck putting that genie back into its bottle.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

raiding needs mythic plus. that way you people have something else to yell about being better at than everyone.

"Method killed it first but Herpaderpaderp Guild from Sweded did a plus 18 Sylvanas in time!"

[Outofmana]

Removal of transmorph so you actually care about the looks of gear again, and not just their stats. This is what made raid rewards boring af.

[kaminaris]

3 & 4) I think the lockouts need to stay in place. As seen throughout history, people have no self control and if one guild is running 7 heroics a week to gear up, everyone else may feel inclined to do the same in the spirit of fair competition. However, I though lockouts for heroic raids only prevent you from getting gear not from stepping back in. As for M+, I'm not sure how it works now, but I would be in favor of everyone getting an item from your first keyed run that week, then every subsequent higher key you complete that item upgrades to the appropriate ilvl for that key level. Then you get a second item with your cache. This might put less emphasis on using M+ as gearing up fro raids and more for what it was intended for as a way for small group non raiders to have challenging content.

Nobody will run 7 heroics now, people will spam M+ instead.
And by lockouts i mean:
1. Remove mythic ID lockout, change it to heroic version of lockout - once per week.
2. Remove heroic/normal lockout alltogether, maybe change it to 20h lockout/reset each day.

Reason for this is simple. IF raiding were to be popular, organized pugs must be able to do it.

Xrealm mythic is completely pointless with ID lockout as nobody is willing to make that organized pug, knowing they will be locked out for entire week if couple of duded turned out to be noobs. ID lockout is the problem.

[Monster Hunter]

Removal of transmorph so you actually care about the looks of gear again, and not just their stats. This is what made raid rewards boring af.

God no. Like fuck I want to look like fried fish for a whole tier like the current set. Or a hentai monster next tier or a troll reject as shaman in argus,

Tmog is one of the only reasons this games still going and people still log in.

[kaminaris]

You still haven't proven yourself right, so... In fact, I'd argue you don't know stats.

So far you are spurting nonsense. And didn't provide anything

False. This isn't how inaccurate info works. The owner told us, in no uncertain terms, that his query did not in any way reflect the actual population, nor is there any way for him to know it is or isn't.

"It's accurate enough" by your own opinion, but in actuality, it has no basis in reality. This isn't a statistical proof, it's literally the exact opposite - A direct assumption despite evidence of the contrary.

Completely and utterly false, you can, to some extent, check how much population changed. It's more than enough to estimate the difference.
For example,
EU
March 2016 max level characters: 7 176 199
Now max level characters EU: 6 000 081

13% players diminished over 3 years.
And it's even optimistic version.

No, it really isn't. You're insisting a whole when you have no way to prove the sub set you speak of is a whole.

This is not only irresponsible of someone claiming to know stats, but disingenuous of an argument at best.

Yes it fucking is. Period. We know for a fact that WoW is bleeding players, not gaining them.

If it's so common knowledge, it should be easy to prove.

Instead, you choose not to prove it and insist it's correct despite evidence to the contrary, and no evidence in favor. The current evidence suggests that BfA's subs are not much different than Legion, most certainly not in any significant enough number to make the dip in raiding population you claim make sense.

I just proved to you. There is at least 13% difference.

1) Easy for someone without any stats knowledge to claim, but in reality incorrect.

Sorry but "that person" without knowledge about statistics is you.

2) I can read charts quite well. You do know that when data points are horizontal from one another, they're the same, right?

[/QUOTE]
No they are not.

3) I both don't think Legion has more players than BfA AND am not deluding myself into thinking so. That said, if you're going to claim it's 'common knowledge' that BfA has less players than Legion, you have to back it up, not just claim it's 'common knowledge.' It's far from it, and it's disingenous to claim it is.

So not only are you delusional - You'll double down on incorrect arguments in an attempt to save yourself. (It isn't working.) Cute.

Number of guilds going down, less and less new players. Yes we know it for a fact.
Delusion is thinking the opposite.

[Specialka]

God no. Like fuck I want to look like fried fish for a whole tier like the current set. Or a hentai monster next tier or a troll reject as shaman in argus,

Tmog is one of the only reasons this games still going and people still log in.

So very much sadly true.

[kaminaris]

False. Delusion is being so convinced of something, you refuse facts to insist it is true even without any reason to believe it.

Which you've made very clear, you most certainly are deluded.

False, delusion is ignoring every argument and staying in your own imaginary world.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Gear isn’t a reward, it’s a tool to progression.
If you want rewards then unique cosmetics, titles, mounts and so on.

[kaminaris]

Hey, you're catching on finally!

You're just one step away from realizing who it was who was doing this.

Yes, it was you all along.
I didn't 'imagine' all that people leaving in last 2-3 expansions and never came back. I didn't imagine less and less guilds over that time.

It was you, who lives in utopia where MAUs didn't drop for couple of years.
It was you, who imagined influx of new players.