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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnagexz View Post
    You can throw buzz-words all you like. But again, if all you need to do to make a particular behavior go away is type /ignore [playername] then WHY would you not?

    It's illogical, I said she chose because if not then she is either dumb or a coward. (does that sound better?) Its like if something in her house caught fire and instead of putting it out she just stood there and watched everything go up in flames. Then she turns around and goes, "Oh the fire is evil it burned everything down.". Sure, the fire is bad, but that does NOT change the fact that she chose to do nothing. People seriously need to take responsibility for their actions or inaction as is the case here.

    There is not shame in /ignore I've done it plenty of times to harassers, no sexism, you don't need a penis to learn of that command's use/existence. If you put your buzzword down for a sec and thought, then you'd realizing that instead of blaming her I am pointing out that she HAD the power to stop it all along.

    And for the record same thing happens there too. I've seen in happen in a few FCs there as well, people are people everywhere you go, assholes too. This mentality of helplessness that you encourage isn't helping, its better for people to know that they can DO something about their situation than to label themselves a "victim" and play a pity-party.
    Except when it's not just random people that do it. What happens if it's a guild member or a PUG raid member? Suddenly it's not so easy to just ignore and move on, you have to go out of your way to find somewhere else to be if the people around you won't stand up for you. Also if you think I used any buzzwords there then you really have to expand your vocabulary a bit. And it's not helplessness, it's being fed up with assholes everywhere you go. It's almost like choosing to stop playing the game is still doing something. If she chose no action then saying she didn't do anything would be an appropriate response, but she decided it was easier and better to just stop playing completely and go somewhere else. And yeah I'm sure there are assholes in FFXIV too but in my experience their numbers are much lesser than in WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    He is right, you have all the tools to stop the harassment but somehow you chose to not use them. Its not just sexism dude, i've met a lot annoying people over the years which i simply blocked. Fortunately It was enough to stop but the moment if anyone would be more persistent I would send report to blizzard.

    It like saying it's all people fault mugging/robbing crime exists and police should not be needed at all, well sorry to disappoint you.



    That is how it was for a long time, unless blizzard will make mythic more accessible.
    First off don't call me dude. Second off, read my response above if you want. For your second post, I'm not sure what you're even saying or how it's relevant at all to what I said. I'm not talking strictly about Mythic raiding, I'm talking about any form of organized raiding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpresident View Post
    My words exactly. Manufacturing in the US is considerably more expensive than elsewhere, and part of that are savage regulations such as environment protection or minimum wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderaan View Post
    Saying that Wilson is a racist murderer is the same level of conspiracy as saying Sandy Hook didn't happen and the parents are in on it.
    I don't post that often, and when I do it's often in bursts. I always lurk though.

  2. #242
    It's already rewarded out the ass. The simple fact of the matter is that you cannot bribe people into it because for many it isn't fun.

    Fights drag on far too long, the graphics are a mess of stand in this but don't stand in that and it's just a bunch of single use memorization.

    To make raiding more appealing it needs to go faster, not be filled up with time consuming trash and be made fun, if such a thing is possible.

    Flex as it was in MoP is the closest thing I've seen to that and of course, they got rid of that.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Doesn't this just mean raiding is bad as far as game play and enjoyment are concerned? You have to make the rewards for everything else inferior to entice people to raid? Why not make raiding more appealing instead of breaking everything else?
    By that logic, people never wanted to do any of it though. Blizzard themselves have admitted the reason for the 15 ilvl increase between difficulties is because people only do content if it feels rewarding.

    So essentially, going by your logic of "If it isn't done without a reward it isn't fun" then 99% of this game isn't fun.

    The reality is, people do whatever is easiest with the greatest reward. You can't force people into harder content unless they want to do it without a strong incentive. It's the same reason that Warmode failed so horribly in the beginning of WoW and had to be heavily modified. It's the same reason the Battle of Naz'jatar event failed and had to be heavily modified. They weren't rewarding enough to the minority and therefore just weren't done.

  4. #244
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    At this point just seperate dungeon and raid gear and remove forging already. Like reintroduce tier setbonusses that then actually helps you in the raid instead of all over the place and do the same with dungeon sets. They're onto it with the nazj and EP bonusses on benthic but the source of the gear itself is the issue to me. Those things should be from the raid itself and not the grinding zone. For me they don't need 12 sets when 4 will do and they're too cheap to hire extra manpower to cut it anyway. It's the itemization that steals the picture anyway and this continued focus on smaller group content is not doing any favors helping the raiding community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCitra View Post
    Raid sets and the removal of titanforged and i would go back to raiding again. I do not understand it at all how it got passed having someone go LFR and get better gear than hc or mythic. it's beyond me.
    It passed because they want the individual to be in focus instead of the team-effort it took to get it. It's the same issue with mythic endboss only dropping a single mount each week. It's a serious test on everyone involved only this forging bs puts the screws on before the raiding even starts. Suffice to say group-content has been in a downward spiral ever since from this additional gambling-layer aspect being introduced to the game.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-11-11 at 10:34 PM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    At this point just seperate dungeon and raid gear and remove forging already.
    As someone who has benefited way too much from TF (I'm iLvl 446 and I've not got past 3/8H Palace) - I agree.

    What I'd like to see is horizontal benefits to replace TF (e.g. more speed and tertiary or utility options on gear).

    Maybe up the M+ cap on increasing iLvl (from 10 to say 15) ?

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    At this point just seperate dungeon and raid gear and remove forging already.
    I dislike that concept.
    I already dislike Benthic gear due to that, if a given item is good, it should be good everywhere and not just in a given zone because <reasons>.
    Sure, something like the Aberration belt is fine in concept and would add a choice to some dungeons, but simply having those specials effects only work in a given area for no other reason than balance is just bad.

    It's already something i dislike on how they solved PvP, how your character is suddenly totally different once you enter PvP combat or how your character suddenly forgets spells by zoning into a dungeon.

    It's one of the minor things i've started to appreciate about classic, there is no special rule or stuff on how things work, a spell that works in the outdoor the same as it works in a dungeon or in PvP, my character feels consistent.
    in BfA, my character is anything but consistent.

    You're in outdoor area and have wm on? You suddenly have all those skills!
    Enter a dungeon where this shit would be really useful? Too bad, it's gone.
    Oh look, that Azerite trait heals you for a bunch of HP!
    Oh, some rogue stabbed you, now it heals 80% less, too bad.
    You're in Nazjatar? Better equip those benthic items!
    But not in Mechagon, why would you wear them in Mechagon? Switch to better pieces!

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Following that logic, i would assume that if a healer quits, you're obviously looking for another healer, same goes for ranged dps.
    Not really, the fact melee spots don't appear as often means that guilds are more likely to just not recruit a new melee and replace him with a ranged or cut that spot out of the roster, while it doesn't happen with ranged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Again, it feeds into the issue above, if you're a damn good player, people will take you,
    If you're a damn good player and a melee, guilds will still take a mediocre warlock / mage over you, at least half of the time. And that's what the problem is, the inherent unfairness. People talk how unfair is titanforging etc. but don't see anything wrong that crappy warlock will take the spot over the most talented enhancement shaman 90% of the time. If your stance is "some unfairness is acceptable" then it's a matter of principle / attitude not whether it exists or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Any halfway intelligent raid had their melees stick on the boss and only had them help out if the ranged couldn't handle it.
    Because moving out of Melee range is obviously far more punishing for a Melee than moving for your average ranged spec.
    Which means either you slotted so few melee so the ranged can deal with the mechanics alone (few melee slots = not melee friendly), or you had to use several of melee players to do the job as well despite bigger dps penalty because stuff had specific "minimal amount of people required to cover all the spots", cakes left a lengthy debuff on mythic, etc. It wasn't one of these mechanics where you sent 3 hunters to deal with something and rest of the raid could forget a mechanic existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That happened because of RBG.
    Because Mass grip+Vortex+Beam was a gamebreaker combo, you couldn't play RBG without at least one Balance Druid and a DK, the more you had, the more often you could pull off this combo.
    In that case it's very stupid because RBG is probably THE least participated in competitive content that exists in wow. Way more people raid, mythic raid, do m+, arenas, unrated bgs, basically anything else, RBGs are a niche within a niche to the point most medium to high rated teams constantly face each other because there's barely anybody playing this and 600 rating difference between matched teams is not unheard of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because Rogues are the melees that require a hand? Really?
    Let's be honest, the only melees that are currently screwed are the ones like Enhance, Feral, SV, etc., not rogues.
    Yeah, true, Rogues don't need a hand, that's why there should be more utility and especially on the classes that aren't already a must-have. And nope, not every melee can go ranged with a press of a button, dks and paladins say hi, and going tank doesn't matter because tank spots are even fewer than melee spots, plus current expansion tank meta was monk - warrior - monk, so that didn't help either. And classes that can tank or heal shouldn't be left in a state their dps spec exists only for solo questing and because they're "hybrids" their raid spots are reserved for healer / tank specs and their dps counterparts can be useless.

    And I still don't understand why demon hunters and monks were given special treatment they provide a raid buff that can't even be substituted with a scroll unlike the warrior shout, only the newest and shiniest classes deserve mandatory raid spot? Yes, ferals, enhance, ret, dk definitely need more reasons to be brought into the raid. And survival... no idea why Blizzard even decided to make it a melee. We already had so many melee classes, all classes added to the game are melee and zero ranged (dk, dh, monk).

    Imo they should *at least* bring back buffs to every class / spec but ensure each buff is covered by diverse amount of specs. But the issue remains most of these buffs are passive or fire and forget and that doesn't ensure melee get engaging gameplay and provide anything besides dps + buff. Stuff like mass grip and grounding totem are just a few examples of utility that was used in raids in the past until it got pruned.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I dislike that concept.
    I already dislike Benthic gear due to that, if a given item is good, it should be good everywhere and not just in a given zone because <reasons>.
    Sure, something like the Aberration belt is fine in concept and would add a choice to some dungeons, but simply having those specials effects only work in a given area for no other reason than balance is just bad.

    It's already something i dislike on how they solved PvP, how your character is suddenly totally different once you enter PvP combat or how your character suddenly forgets spells by zoning into a dungeon.

    It's one of the minor things i've started to appreciate about classic, there is no special rule or stuff on how things work, a spell that works in the outdoor the same as it works in a dungeon or in PvP, my character feels consistent.
    in BfA, my character is anything but consistent.

    You're in outdoor area and have wm on? You suddenly have all those skills!
    Enter a dungeon where this shit would be really useful? Too bad, it's gone.
    Oh look, that Azerite trait heals you for a bunch of HP!
    Oh, some rogue stabbed you, now it heals 80% less, too bad.
    You're in Nazjatar? Better equip those benthic items!
    But not in Mechagon, why would you wear them in Mechagon? Switch to better pieces!
    It's not bad, it's magic and bloodlust in a videogame. Put your rpg-fantasy-hat on. There's numerous ways to go about it elegantly but it'll always boil down to the fact that it's only done for the purpose of balance. -which is nonexistent in classic and not what this thread is about.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    It passed because they want the individual to be in focus instead of the team-effort it took to get it. It's the same issue with mythic endboss only dropping a single mount each week.
    Which is bullshit because all it promotes is people looting the mount and fucking off and top guilds selling boosts.

    If it was to reward effort and team play every participant would get a "mount shard" and after 20 kills within the current expansion would collect enough to transform them into a mount. Also 20 kills could be too many, just make it 10 or so, it's still 2+ months of farm if you want incentives for people to refarm the cleared raid.

    But that would put a damper on the beloved boost selling that pushes the token sales, and actually reward effort and dedication instead of dumb luck, can't have that.

  10. #250
    or, if you wanted to formulate the question honestly: why should the play style I ENJOY give better rewards than what other people enjoy
    m+ were introduced as a way of progression for people who dont want to or dont have time to raid, and their reward (apart from weekly chest) is on par with HC raid, so incentive for raids is better gear (from mythic raid), and also some cosmetic rewards, why should there be anything more?

    dunno about you, but i do both m+ and raids bcs i LIKE IT, i enjoy it, and frankly, if you dont enjoy one of them you shouldnt do it... people will say you have to do m+ to get some items for raid, do you really HAVE to? it helps, but its not required in any way, you can go into normal raid and gear there for hc without ever setting foot in m+ dungeon...

  11. #251
    There is nothing you could include to get casuals to want to be devoted to raiding.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealpeni View Post
    Raiding in essence has to be fun.
    And this is the crux of the issue: raiding imo hasn't been fun for quite some time. Legion was quite hit and miss. EN was meh, ToV wasn't much better. I loved Nighthold, only to be !@#$ing annoyed by Tomb of Soakgeras. Fortunately Antorus was quite neat, and left me with a good impression overall.

    But in BfA I'm growing tired of the way raids are designed, especially with that fetish of stuffing the last bosses with a bunch of overlapping mechanics. G'huun and Aszhara are the worst offenders imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Not really, the fact melee spots don't appear as often means that guilds are more likely to just not recruit a new melee and replace him with a ranged or cut that spot out of the roster, while it doesn't happen with ranged.
    That's just guesswork on your part.
    If you lose something that was working, you try to replace with a proper substitute.

    If your raid is too heavy on melees, then some of them were most likely benched to begin with.

    So you're basically trying to just twist that in your favour.
    Also, supply and demand plays a big role, spots for melees have way more possible applicants than ranged, thus they're gone much quicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    If you're a damn good player and a melee, guilds will still take a mediocre warlock / mage over you, at least half of the time. And that's what the problem is, the inherent unfairness. People talk how unfair is titanforging etc. but don't see anything wrong that crappy warlock will take the spot over the most talented enhancement shaman 90% of the time. If your stance is "some unfairness is acceptable" then it's a matter of principle / attitude not whether it exists or not.
    No guild takes a shit player because of their class.
    This is not Vanilla / TBC where almost any spec can be played in auto pilot mode and that does 90% of your dps, especially if you fail to execute mechanics in the current mythic enviroment you're nothing but a baggage on the raid.

    A raid full of melees has a better chance at killing bosses like Court (or Even M Azshara) than a raid full of crappy players but with FotM classes, because the current encounter design is pretty serious about proper execution.

    This issue what you're describing wasn't even truly solved when Blizzard took the "Bring the player, not the class" to the most extreme point.
    There is no magic fix to that problem, don't act like there is one, it's been that since the game came out.

    Like honestly, that complaint of yours here could just come straight out of Vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Which means either you slotted so few melee so the ranged can deal with the mechanics alone (few melee slots = not melee friendly), or you had to use several of melee players to do the job as well despite bigger dps penalty because stuff had specific "minimal amount of people required to cover all the spots", cakes left a lengthy debuff on mythic
    Yeah, let's also not forget about spinning laser that melees could just virtually ignore and so forth.
    Nighthold was a raid that heavily favored melees, that's just how it was, even trying to shoehorn that victimization of melees into there is just bogus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    In that case it's very stupid because RBG is probably THE least participated in competitive content that exists in wow.
    And some players don't care about your story and how you struggle as melee to get into mythic raids.
    Point simply is, that combo completely ruined RBG's.

    And if a single ability ruins an entire game mode, i think Blizzard was right to cut it.
    It's not like DK's are useless garbage because they don't have mass grip anymore.

    Truth just is, a lot of melees are terrible because they're put right next rogues and DH, which are by comparison utterly bonkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    And nope, not every melee can go ranged with a press of a button, dks and paladins say hi
    Did i say that?
    I didn't.

    I said "to some extent" and even the examples i've provided were that had that option.

    And that's going to be my last reply, first off because it has really just turned you into moaning over how melees are being treated unfairly, which also barely has anything to do with the topic at hand anymore.

    If you want to play a mode that favors melee, try M+.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    It's not bad, it's magic and bloodlust in a videogame. Put your rpg-fantasy-hat on.
    You're mistaking logic for consistency.
    Simply because magic exists in a world, you just shouldn't entirely discard consistency.

    Because that also affects gameplay, as i constantly have to re adjust to a given situation based on the enviroment i'm in for no other reason.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    This melees vs ranged is a thing that will never be resolved. Melee are for sure in mechanical disadvantage in raiding, but I am not a fan of this "solution" where they are excluded from almost all mechanics.

    Mythic Cabal was annoying enough where, as ranged, I had to run around like crazy with shit exploding all around, while melee almost tunneled the boss. I hope that at some point Blizz will find some better solution than just default to tossing shitton mechanics at ranged to even the playing field.

    Throughout the years we had so many iterations already, we had MoP where melee really suffered because Ranged were gods with DPS on the move tools galore and what not. Or Nighthold where melee were pretty much tunneling bosses while ranged did all the bullshit.

    This just doesn't work and I personally, have no clue what a good solution could be there.
    I don't think it exists simply because melee is at such a disadvantage in a raid environment. Half your screen is usually taken up by the boss and you barely see half the arena, where ranged players have far more situational awareness and (most importantly) can be spread out and aren't clustered in a pack of 5+ sitting ducks that can be uber-fucked if some mechanics hit them (see: Spellblade's frost debuff). The only things that melee contribute over ranged are somewhat quicker target switching (irrelevant in most fights, barely an advantage when it isn't) and shorter cooldown interrupts.

    Nighthold was indeed the only raid in recent memory where melee was as good as ranged, and that was done by allowing us to tunnel the living hell out of the boss while ranged felt the pain during fights like Botanist or the aforementioned Spellblade. Albeit if memory serves Antorus was relatively balanced outside of the awful, awful shit that was Coven.

    But as a Warrior main I don't complain that much, my guild isn't at a level where I get benched often and melee is very strong in all of the game's other facets, raiding just happens to be the one aspect where the nature of the role isn't suited to high performance. And at the very upper echelons where melee does live the benched life, players most likely have a stable of raid-ready alts anyway.

  15. #255
    Use the WoD approach and make it the only thing you can do in the game.

    Wait, that's not a popular idea?!


  16. #256
    Super rare legendary drops like warglaives in bt
    You think you do, but you don't ©
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  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    The problem starts when police exists, but doesn't do anything to stop crime. In the same aspect I don't understand how guild management could not react when issues are brought up. In some cases, okay, maybe it's a bro of GM and GM is biased. But that's not a norm.

    I'd say in every guild I was there were people we wouldn't get along well, but it usually wasn't due to anything else than playstyle and attitude, so usually how it ended was trying to avoid each other outside of raids. Tbh other people did the same, in my last guild there were 2 dudes than thought of each other that the other one is a noob and sucks at his class, and would refuse to group together for m+ and whatnot.
    But the police is blizzard, not your gm/raid leader. If harassment is real, blizz will handle it. If anything they are serious about - its this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlineSamantha View Post
    Except when it's not just random people that do it. What happens if it's a guild member or a PUG raid member? Suddenly it's not so easy to just ignore and move on, you have to go out of your way to find somewhere else to be if the people around you won't stand up for you. Also if you think I used any buzzwords there then you really have to expand your vocabulary a bit. And it's not helplessness, it's being fed up with assholes everywhere you go. It's almost like choosing to stop playing the game is still doing something. If she chose no action then saying she didn't do anything would be an appropriate response, but she decided it was easier and better to just stop playing completely and go somewhere else. And yeah I'm sure there are assholes in FFXIV too but in my experience their numbers are much lesser than in WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -



    First off don't call me dude. Second off, read my response above if you want. For your second post, I'm not sure what you're even saying or how it's relevant at all to what I said. I'm not talking strictly about Mythic raiding, I'm talking about any form of organized raiding.
    Its not you damn GM or raid leader job to fend off some horny dudes for you.

    And I completely don't care about your gender.

  18. #258
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    It's not a question of rewards, it's the group size needed for the hardest difficulty. Getting 20 consistent members is tough on servers that aren't as populated, which then brings us to the problem of Blizzard not doing nearly as much as they could be to solve realm population issues.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    It's not a question of rewards, it's the group size needed for the hardest difficulty. Getting 20 consistent members is tough on servers that aren't as populated, which then brings us to the problem of Blizzard not doing nearly as much as they could be to solve realm population issues.
    Realm population is always a touchy subject for Blizz because it requires them to address the elephant in the room which is that the game's popularity has waned in recent years. They did mention looking into it at BlizzCon this year, however, so we might get a few more connected realms.

  20. #260
    I dont wanna raid because being in a raiding guild is like a part time job and I play this game to relax. I think with the way this game has changed and the way the raiding scene has broken down over the years they need to just focus more on dungeons and smaller-scale content like the new tower thing

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