What rewards does raiding need to make it more appealing?

[ksehsatoo]

Really simple. Make it exclusive. How cool was raiding in vanilla and tbc? You saw someone with a piece of gear only obtainable torugh a certain boss. It really bothers me there needs to be a lvl for each dungeon/raid. Doing the SAME dungeon while lvling, then at max lvl I do it till I can do it AGAIN but then on heroic, then for the rest of the expansion IM IN THE SAME DUNGEON DOIN MYTHIC!

[potis]

This is precisely the problem. Though raiders will never admit it, because these things make it very convenient for them.

The problem is companies putting money over gameplay and creating accessibility for that very reason, and at the same time "forcing" the better players to have to carry the people that dont give a fuck.

All of this started 100% from the majority crying dear murder and expecting to have things handed to them, Blizzard complied and created systems, those systems succeeded in that matter, because they were forcing the better players to queue up and farm stuff, quickest example, Valor Points.

That in turn created the segregation that has existed for the last 5-7 years out of the 15 years of WoW.

Raiders arent the problem, the problem is that Blizzard complied to the majority of insanely low skilled horrendous 0 reflexes players that blame everything on something else (work/children/school/weather/internet) instead of their own person, refusing to improve at something trivial as pixels moving in the name of "fun", instead of letting you farm Heroic Dungeons for 2 years as they did the first 3 expansions.

When new systems were introduced (M+,Flex raiding) and weekly caps/point system was removed, the better player or "raider" has no reason to group up with the majority, the same way he didnt in Vanilla/TBC and half of Wrath.

How is his fun not taken into account, that he had to deal daily with millions of terribads, to farm some retarded points, because Blizzard realized its the best way to carry all these bads?

Have you tried LFR in BFA, where the majority of decent players doesnt even bother since there is no point system, or Legendary chance % to drop or a legendary questline to do on their alt? So they dont give a fuck, and dont queue up to carry all these homo erectus with internet, have you seen the amount of wipes compared to Legion?

Even with the majority of mechanics missing, and the remaining nerfed to 20% of their actual values, people still manage to actually lose Health.

All the addons, systems and segregation exists because you arent supposed to be there, you arent supposed to be doing that content unless you dedicate a few hours/brain cells in order to do so, but the usual excuse of "I pay too, dont i" exists to counter every argument, followed by "I HAVE KIDS, ITS JUST A GAME", like every other special snowflake.

[Raelbo]

Well, by community do you mean guilds?

Guilds and other communities. A few years back I remember using OpenRaid (not sure if it exists anymore). There are also communities on Discord.

Pugging doesn't and shouldn't be considered a second hand choice.

Why not? Why should pugging with complete strangers be considered equal to a more organised guild? I am not saying pugging shouldn't be possible, just that you shouldn't expect the same level of quality of teamplay in a pug, and you shouldn't expect to be able to aspire to the same level of challenge.

To raid with strangers is not a bad thing, infact, it's more exciting than the same old people every day. It should be a way to build a good community, to make new friends and to see new prespectives. Instead it has become a nightmare. And Blizzard are to blame for alot of it.

I'd agree that being able to form groups with complete strangers is not a bad thing. I also agree that it should be a mechanism for building a community. But blaming Blizzard for that?

There is an old saying: "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". All the tools necessary to build successful and vibrant communities exist. Either they're provided by Blizzard, or where Blizzard haven't provided, the community has made them - often better than Blizzard ever could (just look at Discord, it's an amazingly powerful tool).

In the end though it's not the tools that fail. It's the players themselves. Even if you want to claim that Blizzard haven't always provided the right tools to build the community, the fact is that the right tools do exist, and it hasn't fixed the problem. I am not sure why you think that if Blizzard went and created their own versions of the tools, no matter how good, it would change anything.

Toxic communities exist because some people are just shits. I hate to be so blunt, but that's the way I see it. The onus is on you to find the right community for you - and if it doesn't, then you need to make it. And yes, I get that it is work. But the reality is that creating a good community does require work and it is not work that Blizzard, or any 3rd party can do for you - the work needs to come from members of the community to build, maintain and keep it going successfully.

[kranur]

Really simple. Make it exclusive. How cool was raiding in vanilla and tbc? You saw someone with a piece of gear only obtainable torugh a certain boss. It really bothers me there needs to be a lvl for each dungeon/raid. Doing the SAME dungeon while lvling, then at max lvl I do it till I can do it AGAIN but then on heroic, then for the rest of the expansion IM IN THE SAME DUNGEON DOIN MYTHIC!

How would that do any good? You can make it exclusive, you can add 1 million mounts and transmog sets, it still won't make people have the time available to participate. Instead of having people running the same dungeons on higher difficulty or raid on an easier difficulty, you'll just have them log in, wonder why they still play the game because they don't have the time to commit and log off.
And then you'll be left with the hardcores all wearing the same gear anyway.

[Frolk]

If raiding can't support itself--because let's face it, it's a toxic game mode for toxic people--then it should just get cut.

Pvp can be toxic and pvpers can be toxic, so lets remove pvp as a whole then.

[Depakote]

Pvp can be toxic and pvpers can be toxic, so lets remove pvp as a whole then.

People can be toxic. Let's remove those from the game.

[ksehsatoo]

How would that do any good? You can make it exclusive, you can add 1 million mounts and transmog sets, it still won't make people have the time available to participate. Instead of having people running the same dungeons on higher difficulty or raid on an easier difficulty, you'll just have them log in, wonder why they still play the game because they don't have the time to commit and log off.
And then you'll be left with the hardcores all wearing the same gear anyway.

Attunments like in TBC. Do dungeon X and Y first to obtain a key ( learn mechanics needed) and earn acces to content Z. This way you put a story into the dungeons you're progressing in. Same goes for raids, kill last boss of A and B first to be able to enter C. Who says its about mounts and xmog?

[Battlebeard]

Guilds and other communities. A few years back I remember using OpenRaid (not sure if it exists anymore). There are also communities on Discord.



Why not? Why should pugging with complete strangers be considered equal to a more organised guild? I am not saying pugging shouldn't be possible, just that you shouldn't expect the same level of quality of teamplay in a pug, and you shouldn't expect to be able to aspire to the same level of challenge.



I'd agree that being able to form groups with complete strangers is not a bad thing. I also agree that it should be a mechanism for building a community. But blaming Blizzard for that?

There is an old saying: "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". All the tools necessary to build successful and vibrant communities exist. Either they're provided by Blizzard, or where Blizzard haven't provided, the community has made them - often better than Blizzard ever could (just look at Discord, it's an amazingly powerful tool).

In the end though it's not the tools that fail. It's the players themselves. Even if you want to claim that Blizzard haven't always provided the right tools to build the community, the fact is that the right tools do exist, and it hasn't fixed the problem. I am not sure why you think that if Blizzard went and created their own versions of the tools, no matter how good, it would change anything.

Toxic communities exist because some people are just shits. I hate to be so blunt, but that's the way I see it. The onus is on you to find the right community for you - and if it doesn't, then you need to make it. And yes, I get that it is work. But the reality is that creating a good community does require work and it is not work that Blizzard, or any 3rd party can do for you - the work needs to come from members of the community to build, maintain and keep it going successfully.

Not saying they should be completely equal.
Mythic should be for guilds.
Heroic should be for organized pugs.
Normal should be for any pugs.

Not exclusively like this, but more or less tuned for this.

[roboscorcher]

Don't think raids or rewards are a problem. Blizz has been downplaying the idea of guilds and groups for years now, and that is the main issue. The social aspect is gone and players are conditioned to instant grouping with people they will never meet again, so joining a guild and working around a shared schedule is just alien to many people at this point.

And M+ did not help, as it's a lot less work and time investment to get a group and do a dungeon, and there are no lockouts, so you can do it whenever and with anyone. Also you are pretty much guaranteed loot that is as good if not better.

So raiding became more of a high investment and uncertain return option with a bunch of restrictions and inconveniences.

I think what we need is a revamp of the guild system. And in needs to address several points:

• There should be a a barrier to creating a guild. At this point it's really just a matter of signatures, but it should be more involved. And not just a high price to create one, it has to involve effort. For example you can start a guild, but you need to do a bunch of quests and tasks together to get it "official", like setting up your base and getting the infrastructure in place. So that people are invested. And it should not be just some material donations or some shit, that could be done by one person with enough gold and willingness to visit AH.
• There needs to be a reason to join a guild, a tangible advantage. Yeah, we have perks, but they were nerfed so many times they are pretty meaningless for the most part. In BDO guilds make a lot of money on daily basis but also give a lot of it back to the members in wages and salaries (one is daily the other is based on your contribution to guild quests).
• We also need a proper way to recruit members and find guilds, that does not involve shouting in trade chat. I once tried to find my guild using the in-game tool on a new char, I gave up after about hour and a half of scrolling.
• There should be guild activities and a reason for both guild and it's members to care about them. Tangible rewards and need for cooperation, not just world quests and do X dungeons in a guild group.
• Guilds need bigger presence in the world, more than just <Taste good in your mouth> under your name.
• There should be things for GM and officers to do that affect the guild, and a reason to have officers and specific jobs for them, beyond "you can recruit and kick people".

Basically guild system needs to be a proper part of the game, not a tacked on system that's been mostly left alone for 15 years. You get people together and invested in what they are doing and who are they doing it with, they will naturally gravitate to activities they can do together. Not the other way around.

Yeah the current game does not give players any incentive to join a guild. The Cataclysm perks were nice, but they were abused by people looking for easy gold.

One thing that is really cool in Classic is the 2hour Onyxia buff. Imagine if, in Shadowlands, players could create a similar buff:
- one player drops an item (gained from doing raid content).
- everyone who is in his guild AND did the raid content can channel into the item.
- if enough guildies channel into the item, the whole city gets a buff.
- the buff could be unique to current content, like "+10% stats while in Bastion."
- the guildies that actually created the buff would get a slightly stronger version.
- a guild can only create the buff once a week.

[kranur]

Attunments like in TBC. Do dungeon X and Y first to obtain a key ( learn mechanics needed) and earn acces to content Z. This way you put a story into the dungeons you're progressing in. Same goes for raids, kill last boss of A and B first to be able to enter C. Who says its about mounts and xmog?

What do attunements have to do with anything? My comments were to your suggestion to make raids as exclusive as they were in BC. And what exactly will re-gating content accomplish with regards to increasing the appeal to raid? If anything that will drive even more people away from it.

[kaminaris]

Someone who knew stats would know 'trend' is not something we can draw even relatively accurate conclusions from, because ANY new information could change the 'trend.' (Not to mention that 'trend' gets less accurate the further over time you stray from the last reported number.)

We know expansion launches boost numbers, of which we've had 2 since the last reported sub number. We also know that numbers drop over time as the expansion winds to a close - Even just from launch, numbers quickly drop. We don't know by how much on either number, though we can guess how many START an expansion based on expansion sales. But, if we examine expansion sales, WoW's population hasn't dipped since WoD, since WoD sold 3.3 million copies in the first week, Legion sold 3.3 million copies in the first week, and BfA sold 3.4 million on it's first day.

So if we keep looking at available information... WoW's population still looks steady. (If not rose some amount with BfA - Proving how difficult it is to get accurate sub numbers, considering BfA is easily one of the most complained about expansions in existance.) None of the information you provided suggests the population is declining other than your own opinion.

But do feel free to keep trying to post stats 101 info at us as if you are somehow a messiah and can see things other people can't.

There is absolutely no way BfA is even near Legion MAU. You know that from 3 things. First, difference between MoP and Cata. 2nd various leaks such as bugs in api that leaked sub numbers, realmpop data (max level characters), common knowledge that game is getting old, and lastly estimation tools: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._google_trend/

So no, as much as I prefer BfA over Legion, Im in no delusion that it has less players than in legion.

[MasterMirror]

The gear that you get from the raid should be the best gear in the game. No M+, non titanprocs and other crap.

[Mic_128]

Bring back class armour from raids. Leave out tier bonuses if you want, but bring back multiple armour appearances.

Also, bring back Legendaries, Artifact-style appearance unlocks and quest chains. Legion's raids were always being run, not just the latest raid. When was the last time you saw Uldir being run?

[Velerios]

Attunments like in TBC. Do dungeon X and Y first to obtain a key ( learn mechanics needed) and earn acces to content Z. This way you put a story into the dungeons you're progressing in. Same goes for raids, kill last boss of A and B first to be able to enter C. Who says its about mounts and xmog?

That's probably the DUMBEST idea ever. Raids aren't more appealing when you make them less accessable. I know many people have rose-tinted wow classic-glasses, but it still sucks. Onyxia was maybe the easiest raid, but also the least accessable, and it's just appealing because it's fast. Zul'gurub didn't had an attunement and is still the best raid of classic.

[Ryzek]

Raids have enough rewards as is, no need to add more.

[Raelbo]

Not saying they should be completely equal.

The whole point of the game having different difficulty levels is to ensure that there is content that is of an appropriate level of difficulty to a wide spectrum of groups with varying levels of capability.

The strength of a group is a function not only of the capability of the individual players making up the group but is also heavily influenced by how organised the group is, the quality of the raid leaders, the ability to provide consumables and to set and keep to a regular schedule. And there is absolutely no requirement that the game should accomodate everyone to progress through all the difficulties. The requirement is simply that there is a difficulty appropriate for everyone.

Mythic should be tuned to the point where it is going to challenge even the strongest groups you get in the game where only the most dedicated groups are going to succeed, while LFR is tuned to the opposite end of the spectrum and should be doable by a typical group selected completely at random from the playerbase, including a mix of players of different skill and gear. Normal and Heroic are tuned to provide challenging content to the rest of the spectrum that exists between the two.

Mythic should be for guilds.

Mythic should be designed exclusively for highly organised and committed groups whose players are looking for a serious challenge that will push them hard if they wish to succeed.

The only way pugs should be able to succeed is they consist entirely of players who already do the content in an organised group and are basically just copying their methodology with strangers who are at a similar level.

Heroic should be for organized pugs.

Disagree.

Heroic should be for competent guilds that are reasonably organised and whose players are looking for a decent challenge given real-life constraints on their ability to prioritise WoW in their lives.

Pugs should only be able to succeed if they're well organised and consist of strong players who are likely capable of doing mythic raids, but are unable/unwilling to commit to a guild schedule can also tackle heroic.

In other words, heroic content shouldn't be designed for pugs. It should be designed for decent guilds - guilds that may not be quite as strong as mythic guilds, but also not that far behind. For pugs to compete with this would require exceptional pugs.

Normal should be for any pugs.

Again, I disagree.

Normal should be for casual guilds whose players have some level of competence and a reasonable level of commitment and for pugs that are at least semi-organised and consist of decent players.

For a pug to succeed would still require somewhat skilled players (those who would likely succeed in a heroic guild environment) and a reasonable level of organisation in that they don't just invite random people and hope for the best. In other words, you have a leader who can explain tactics, and raiders whose credentials show that they have some level of experience at raiding and decent gear.

[Velerios]

It's quite easy to make Raids more appealing:

1.) Let us QUEST in Raids: there can be raid-quests for a more appealing Raid. Right now we have: Kill boss x and the end boss. Instead make something drop really really rare, and make it available as a questline with a huge reward. And with huge reward i mean something that is for example BIS even in the next raid.
2.) Don't reset the whole gear. As said above: there need to be some hidden stuff or rare finds that makes the item the best that exist; maybe for another raid, maybe for the whole expansion, but what people wants are more asscandys, not gear that can be thrown away in the next raid. Some items should be BIS even on the next raid, period. Simply some insane stuff that you simply want to have.
3.) Add more grinding stuff: Zul'gurub had tons of hidden stuff, collectables (for reputation and more) and so on. Add to the raid a new raid-faction, make it hard to collect items in the raid, so that you WANT to farm week after week after week for the reward.
4.) ADD SOME HIDDEN STUFF. Puzzles, World drops, maybe some hidden event, maybe even an ultra-rare item, make something totally crazy and so on. Look at Zul'gurub: it had some hidden stuff as well: click on a picture to open a new hallway or maybe get teleported inside the picture for a hidden boss, add find a way to hide it from the dataminers.
5.) Add more profession-stuff inside raids: Make professions matter, add things there that you want to grind, or that raids want to collect to sell or use themself. Look at the legendary Hammer from MC: it require a lot of grind, and so on. Make profession-stuff drop there, only a few in LFR and tons in mythic. Make professions matter, then you make raids matter too, when there is stuff there that you want to get.

Blizzard can easily do raids matter more (and professions) and make the game far more interesting. But adding dumb stuff like attunements will not make raids matter more, it makes them matter less.

- - - Updated - - -

Raids have enough rewards as is, no need to add more.

The problem are not rewards, it is about rewards that matter, and things that matter, and raids right now have nothing of it.

[yamix]

I don't think it's the rewards, it's the ratio of effort to reward that feels like work and burns people out - especially considering how quickly gear becomes outdated.

I think removing mythic, or making it just transmog would be a good start. Make heroic a little harder. Make it more about chilling out and killing bosses than feeling like a job. Add some goals like classic style legendaries or crafted items with crazy mats that you farm up - nowadays they'd need to let you upgrade it too - to fill the rest of the time.

Every time I stop playing it's because mythic feels like a job, not a game. What I'm really enjoying about classic right now is how relaxed it is without the rewards being garbage.

That said I'm sure there will be lots of disagreement on this. It's just my opinion.

[Velerios]

Just an opinion...I am aware of the counter arguments how 5 people overcoming a crazy challenge can be as much of an achievement as 20 ppl overcoming one.

And i even agree with it: just that mythic+ gear should be the best in mythic+, but not everywhere. And i think that having items that add prestige. And yes, items matter the most in classic, that i agree with it. You can have Thunderfury and have a sword that last until the next xpack. It's an accomplishment. Or for example Benediction for Priest: that's something you simply want.

It's the missing: YES, I GOT IT that's the biggest issue of it. But that's not only the case of raiding, professions and much more too.

[kranur]

I completely forgot we used to have reps in some raids that generally dished out a piece steonger and steonger that eventually was bis at exalted. Would be nice to have something like that again.

And yeah, a progression system that is optional but makes a lot of difference and that takes you through all raids, like the mop and wod legendaries. You can basically consider that an optional attunement. The wod one at least was pretty much a replica of the kara attun but wihout the restriction to enter the raida