Anyone NOT that hyped for 'return to class'?

[Gungnir]

Those actually have a use, which would be implemented into the rotation. I am all for that, because that means something, like when they added stuff from artifact weapon in Legion and the use of legendaries, they affect the gameplay. Which is why I think Legion class design was the best it ever was in the game, since they added spells that meant something for your spec. As an Arcane mage you still have iceblock, frost nova etc, something that has a use, effectively. Frostbolt or Fire Blast got almost no use. If they don't implement them into the gameplay properly, it's just useless.

Raise Dead, summon gargoyle for DK, Hunter's mark going back for all specs for hunters, paladin auras etc, that's great because it does something for the spec you are playing, together with those you wrote.

In the end you do play a spec, with class abilities around it. Class Design is just a gimmick, gameplay is all that matters.

EVERY form of design is a gimmick to achieve gameplay, same with spec identity.
The issue with spec identity is when you have previously core abilities being shoved into a specific spec which makes the class itself feel very anemic compared to previous iterations.

On top of that, and I genuinely don't know how people seem to gloss over this, there's a game outside of flowchart DPS rotations in Patchwerk fights, where a lot of tools will come in handy.
If you're the kind of person that only raidlogs and never steps foot outside of an instanced raid then fine, just don't use those abilities, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have access to them.
It's like going "yeah well I don't eat icecream, so no one else should be allowed to do so."

[Tyze]

I rather be a class than a spec.

[Aeula]

Few years back retri could dispell magic and use concentration as quite good aoe. We could ress people with same speed as healers and i don't speak about other "hands" aswell. Add some auras and remove this stupid holy power and then you will feel true power of retri paladin.

They steal so many ..... We were so strong back then.

I actually prefer having Holy Power to be honest. I wasn’t a fan of the seal gameplay of Classic/TBC or Wrath’s version of ret.

Not from a balance perspective it isn't.

I'd rather have 12 classes with better balance than 36 with worse balance.


Not that that's how it will actually work, but we'll see.




I'm also a Ret Paladin who doesn't play Prot or Holy... Nothing about this is forcing you to play Prot or Holy, Ret was fucking amazing in WotLK and WotLK ret followed this design philosophy... All it means is you will have some crossover spells, which will, for us, likely just end up being some better selfhealing and another defensive cooldown (like possibly getting Divine Protection back, which we lost in legion).





They won't... Hybrid tax is archaic, class>spec is not archaic, not even slightly, I don't even know how you could possibly misconstrue it as being archaic... What is archaic about a class having a basic toolkit that the spec builds on top of?

Nothing, that's what... Calling this archaic screams of someone who didn't experience what it was like before, because you're acting like this will be some end of the world scenario when that couldn't be further from the truth... All this means is you're going to get ~5 more abilities with situational usefulness, you're not losing anything.

The balance between the 36 specs is perfectly fine for anything below world first and 2.7k rating. The worst balance this game has ever had is when spec was below class. Just look at Classic.

Basically my main fears about this are them bringing back too much classic design like the hybrid tax and having to reinstall Bartender to fit everything on my bars.

[Doffen]

It's like going "yeah well I don't eat icecream, so no one else should be allowed to do so."

There is like one person in this thread that discuss like this, and that's you. It's funny to see that you still think it will be some great overhaul, when they say it won't be that. Adding abilities is something else than adding gameplay improvements. If they do it right, then it will be great. Like some of the examples I made. You talk about logic to people is a nice read.

I am not any of those kind of players that you list up here. I do love a good Patchwerk fight though, as a boss mechanic where you really have to excel in your role as damage dealer. But that got nothing to do with class or spec design, which is better, that we are discussing here.

And I do love Icecream.

[Alkizon]

And so goes balance theme again...

Well, OK, you have balance, but if and only if all "class" mechanics, everything that makes a class "class" (namely, mechanics make class "class" from systems point of view, not its name, hence requirement for each representative to have all of them) - stabbed and buried in nameless grave. All are "stylistically" different, but they're all played same "builder/spender" (still people like this are blind about it)... but "sane" balanced (for being useful "in E-sports" minds)... I somehow don’t see joyful faces

deviantcultist
Legion did wonders to the Shadowpriest fantasy by establishing the Void lore and turning Shadow into the pure Shadow spec.

Not only have they not added a new Shadow class, but this "return to class" nonsense threatens to ruin Shadow by reintroducing Holy spells.

Blizz needs to respect that some people have been forced into Shadowpriest due to the lack of a true Shadow/Void class and trying dilute that fantasy is a disaster.

Ask for "witches" (whatever class' name), don't ask to break system for get your private needs.


<<BACK | NEXT>>

[Gungnir]

There is like one person in this thread that discuss like this, and that's you.

Citation needed.

It's funny to see that you still think it will be some great overhaul

Citation needed.

Adding abilities is something else than adding gameplay improvements. If they do it right, then it will be great. Like some of the examples I made. You talk about logic to people is a nice read.

Ah yes, citation needed to where Blizzard explicitedly stated that there will be NO changes outside of adding abilities, at all.
You speaking about logic when you cannot employ any is pretty funny.

I am not any of those kind of players that you list up here.

Sure you're not, it's definitely not why you're adamantly against the whole class concept and specifically trying to put words in my mouth that didn't exist in the first place.

I do love a good Patchwerk fight though, as a boss mechanic where you really have to excel in your role as damage dealer. But that got nothing to do with class or spec design, which is better, that we are discussing here.

And where did I state that Patchwerk fights had anything to do with either class or spec design?
It's like you read a post and then respond to your own narrative while completely disregarding the original post.

I specifically mentioned that people are overly fixated upon only judging class and spec design out of a point of view situated in a vaccum of Patchwerk fights, where the only thing you need are 3 abilities.
You'd actually realize this if you read posts.

[deviantcultist]

Legion did wonders to the Shadowpriest fantasy by establishing the Void lore and turning Shadow into the pure Shadow spec.

Not only have they not added a new Shadow class, but this "return to class" nonsense threatens to ruin Shadow by reintroducing Holy spells.

Blizz needs to respect that some people have been forced into Shadowpriest due to the lack of a true Shadow/Void class and trying dilute that fantasy is a disaster.

[Capultro]

To me, as someone playing 15 years It feels shit to know I've had over 50 abilities and then am restricted to 15 per spec and the other 5 were removed. It felt like my class was butchered, standardized and according to analytics and data alone, was streamlined, not due to player feedback or criticism.

Why do you want 50 skills? I think you should go to play the classic anda..I don't know why people don't admit that retail is better than classic just because of things like pruning skills, why do you want 50 skills, sure, you're not going to use them all, and binds are going to get complicated, and the gameplay of course, the classes that work best are the ones that have less skills, for example dh or bm.


I do not support the return to class, rather I support the spec, for example if a magician is frost, he has no need to make fireballs, or if he uses arcane power I do not see why he has to use ice spears, nor does it make sense and it breaks the fantasy of your spec.q is precisely what is going to happen in shadolands ... and what already happened before, I see things right now, frost frost, fire fire ... etc ..

pd about shadow,i don like that shadow use light shields,this break his spec fantasy.he must use shadow magic shields...

[Doffen]

Citation needed.

You asked for it:

"REEE I DON'T DO THIS THEREFORE NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO THIS."
You can straight fuck off with that logic, mate.

Secondly, "my idea" seem to be Blizzards idea, so you'll have to take that discussion with them. I am sure they'll come around once they hear your argument of "I don't want to deal with it, so fuck off and change it and fuck everyone else".

Here is that one.

Citation needed.

Clearly you do not, and MMO-Champ is but a blip on the radar.
They recieved enough feedback to forcibly go back on their own decision, that should tell you enough about how 'welcomed' spec design was.


We've had a single announcement of what they plan to do, we haven't seen what they've actually done yet and you speak as if you know what they're planning.
Yikes, you really do believe that, don't you?

My 'single opinion' echoes what Blizzard seem to think, which weighs a lot more than your opinion.

Yeah, I'm sure those 'lots of people' are the majority in this case, because we can clearly see Blizzard doubling down on spec identity.
Oh what's that, they aren't? WELL I'LL BE DAMNED.

What you don't seem to get is that Legion destroyed the vast majority of the specs. I'm sure all the Survival Hunters, Shadowpriests and Outlaw rogues cherished the fact that their no longer even resembled what they've been playing for the last 12 years.

Also regarding the bolded part, I've met a few whiny manchildren in my day but you really do take the cake.
Not only can you not present a coherent argument that has any argumentative points, but you also devolve into throwing a shitfit and trying to insinuate that you are somehow in the right when BLIZZARD THEMSELVES DISAGREE WITH YOU.
Fuck you're a special duck.

Hate to link that horrendous post of yours again with no argument, but you asked for it.

Ah yes, citation needed to where Blizzard explicitedly stated that there will be NO changes outside of adding abilities, at all.
You speaking about logic when you cannot employ any is pretty funny.

Another fine example that you don't read. What you just wrote got nothing to do with the line you quoted

Sure you're not, it's definitely not why you're adamantly against the whole class concept and specifically trying to put words in my mouth that didn't exist in the first place.

Citation needed.

And where did I state that Patchwerk fights had anything to do with either class or spec design?
It's like you read a post and then respond to your own narrative while completely disregarding the original post.

I didn't say you did, so follow your suggestion and don't put words in my mouth.

I specifically mentioned that people are overly fixated upon only judging class and spec design out of a point of view situated in a vaccum of Patchwerk fights, where the only thing you need are 3 abilities.
You'd actually realize this if you read posts.

Not at all, you are implying that me, and I guess others is of that opinion, when it's nothing of what we said that proves what you try to say. Just reading all your posts shows how incredibly hostile you are to everyone that doesn't agree with you. How about discussing like an adult, so we can actually have a conversation?

Now piss off.

[Loveliest]

I don't care all that much. My prot paladin feels plenty paladin-y. Sure, I no longer have my auras but it's not a big deal. Pretty sure every paladin spec can heal and use hands so don't think there will be much change (aside from bringing back auras). I mean maybe seals were something, but I never cared much for them - they kept nerfing and buffing till only one was usable anyhow.
I actually have more in common with other specs than I used to in the past. I used to want the CC retri had and now I have it.

Anyway, I'm kinda tired of changes all the time. With the level squish, if there's extensive class changes, it would feel like I'm playing some new character who has nothing to do with the old one aside from achis.

[Niroshi]

You guys are genuinely over reacting, to the level almost of those people that lost their shit because Call of Duty appeared on their Battle.net.

For real they're not going to make your spec meaningless. You're not going to be a Frost Mage casting Fireball for main DPS. You're not going back to the days of massive cluttered bars with only 4 spells you use. You're literally just gaining niche utility and you're complaining about it. What even is this thread?

If your Frost Mage "spec fantasy" is so fragile that merely having Fireball on hand shatters it then how did it ever survive the probably dozen non-Frost spells you've now had for going on 4 years during this era of "spec fantasy"?

I can't even tell you how many times I've thought "I used to be able to help with that" or "man remember when we could do x or y" in BFA and Legion and here you fools are arguing we should be even more restricted to fit something as base as your fragile little spec fantasy.

It's genuinely ridiculous to look back on past versions of the classes that I've played and ponder over how powerful those characters would feel today because of how devastated the current line up is.

[Artelia]

I actually prefer having Holy Power to be honest. I wasn’t a fan of the seal gameplay of Classic/TBC or Wrath’s version of ret.

Well, different tastes different people. I got it. But i feel that holy power make us weak.

[Gungnir]

You asked for it:


Here is that one.


Hate to link that horrendous post of yours again with no argument, but you asked for it.

Another fine example that you don't read. What you just wrote got nothing to do with the line you quoted

So what you basically did was quote my response to people employing that piss-poor excuse in the first place?
Because I am not sure you actually understand what's being typed in here, because you sure don't actually adress it.
Not only do you have a severe lack of reading comprehension, you also can't seem to follow a simple discussion and not pull things out of context to try to justify your lacking argument.

Or are you implying that the fact Blizzard is deciding to go back towards class design is somehow by my influence?
No?
Then you literally have no counter-argument.
There's no shame in admitting that you don't want anyone to enjoy a game that's different from yours, but trying to imply that I am employing that argument, when in fact it was a response to people like you using it in the first place is facetious at best as it's taken entirely out of context.

I suggest you learn how to actually employ an argument.

Citation needed.
I didn't say you did, so follow your suggestion and don't put words in my mouth.

But that got nothing to do with class or spec design, which is better, that we are discussing here.

Gee willickers Batman, you sure did, but I'll forgive you for forgetting even the simplest of things as you cannot seem to remember half of the shit you try to quote, as you never address what's actually being typed.

Because you know, typing something completely irrelevant to what I was saying, in order to make it seem like I was somehow correlating class and spec design to patchwerk fights instead of what I was actually doing, which was correlating the lacking comprehension of people holding that form of gameplay in the highest regard to our currently lackluster lineup of classes and their designs sure seem like you're putting words in my mouth.
In fact you sure seem to do that against anyone you attempt to 'argue' with.

Not at all, you are implying that me, and I guess others is of that opinion, when it's nothing of what we said that proves what you try to say. Just reading all your posts shows how incredibly hostile you are to everyone that doesn't agree with you. How about discussing like an adult, so we can actually have a conversation?

Now piss off.

Could you actually rewrite that in proper English?
If you are somehow trying to say that people throwing the argument 'DON'T ADD MORE STUFF BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO USE IT' is somehow not indicative of a person holding the position of 'my way or the highway' type of argument then I have a bridge to sell you.

Let me know if you actually have any form of coherent rebuttal lined up that isn't completely comprised of a giant strawman, complete with a sprinkle of personal attacks and throwing a shitfit when the "argument" doesn't go the way you imagine it to.

[PaladinBash]

Ret's getting things and if that means other people have to suck it up, they can deal with it. Too bad. Ret always gets shat on for the sake of everyone else.

[Osmeric]

Well, theyre finding that any return to a previous state is better than what we have now,

And they'll find that this simply isn't true. The pruning was done for reasons, and those reasons haven't gone away.

I suspect a true return to what they had before would be utterly disastrous.

[Gungnir]

You guys are genuinely over reacting, to the level almost of those people that lost their shit because Call of Duty appeared on their Battle.net.

For real they're not going to make your spec meaningless. You're not going to be a Frost Mage casting Fireball for main DPS. You're not going back to the days of massive cluttered bars with only 4 spells you use. You're literally just gaining niche utility and you're complaining about it. What even is this thread?

If your Frost Mage "spec fantasy" is so fragile that merely having Fireball on hand shatters it then how did it ever survive the probably dozen non-Frost spells you've now had for going on 4 years during this era of "spec fantasy"?

I can't even tell you how many times I've thought "I used to be able to help with that" or "man remember when we could do x or y" in BFA and Legion and here you fools are arguing we should be even more restricted to fit something as base as your fragile little spec fantasy.

It's genuinely ridiculous to look back on past versions of the classes that I've played and ponder over how powerful those characters would feel today because of how devastated the current line up is.

Couldn't have put it better myself, but apparently it's a dangerous mentality to have in this thread as you just get jumped as soon as you imply that getting abilities back might be a good thing.

Which, again, I don't understand people who hold that argument since seemingly Blizzard themselves are also realizing that the current class design and lack of tools are an issue.

[Doffen]

Gee willickers Batman, you sure did, but I'll forgive you for forgetting even the simplest of things as you cannot seem to remember half of the shit you try to quote, as you never address what's actually being typed.

I don't see any citation, so what you are coming up with here is kind of your own words. I used 5mins of my precious life to get those quotes from earlier threads, so do an effort.

Could you actually rewrite that in proper English?

Let me know if you actually have any form of coherent rebuttal lined up that isn't completely comprised of a giant strawman, complete with a sprinkle of personal attacks and throwing a shitfit when the "argument" doesn't go the way you imagine it to.

So, you tell me that I can't write proper english, you say thing I didn't say, and I can't see you haven't countered any real argument from the last 5 posts we have shared, and I am the one that comes with personal attacks, a giant strawman and throwing a shitfit?

If you are somehow trying to say that people throwing the argument 'DON'T ADD MORE STUFF BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO USE IT' is somehow not indicative of a person holding the position of 'my way or the highway' type of argument then I have a bridge to sell you.

Citation needed. Because really, that's nowhere of any resemblances of what I have been writing. I am actually open to changes, while you have been shitting on spec-design for soon 4 years with no form for real arguments why it has been bad.

- - - Updated - - -

Couldn't have put it better myself, but apparently it's a dangerous mentality to have in this thread as you just get jumped as soon as you imply that getting abilities back might be a good thing.

Just like when anyone that think that it could be nice, or maybe not gets jumped on by you

[Gungnir]

I don't see any citation, so what you are coming up with here is kind of your own words. I used 5mins of my precious life to get those quotes from earlier threads, so do an effort.

So, you're telling me to make an effort when any argument you try to come up with relies on strawmen?
Just to let you know since you apparently don't really understand what means, is that they aren't arguments. They're responses built on a false narrative that you yourself make up, either by misunderstanding the original post or just being purposely obtuse and trolly.

So, you tell me that I can't write proper english, you say thing I didn't say, and I can't see you haven't countered any real argument from the last 5 posts we have shared, and I am the one that comes with personal attacks, a giant strawman and throwing a shitfit?

You can't "counter" an argument that is based solely within your own imagination as you haven't addressed a single point in any of my posts.
I'm not here to teach you how to hold a discussions and I'm pretty impressed that you've somehow managed to avoid learning that after all this time.

Citation needed. Because really, that's nowhere of any resemblances of what I have been writing. I am actually open to changes, while you have been shitting on spec-design for soon 4 years with no form for real arguments why it has been bad.

There's been plenty of arguments as to why it's bad, it's just that you're willfully ignoring them, misunderstanding them or just being willfully obtuse and sticking to your strawmen.
Also, citation needed, where have I EVER stated that I am adverse to change? There you go with another strawman.
If anything, I fucking love that they're changing their design philosophy as the one they're currently employing clearly doesn't work, as if it did work then they wouldn't change it in the first place.

It's actually incredible how completely nonsensical your strawmen tends to be.


Not only have I on multiple occasions gone over the drawbacks of being too absorbed with spec design to where it actively is detrimental to the overall feeling of the class, only to be met with "lol class design is a shitty idea, spec design or gtfo" from your ilk.
It's clear that you don't WANT to have a discussion, only to pull your strawmen and troll as much as you possibly can.

Just like when anyone that think that it could be nice, or maybe not gets jumped on by you

Oh I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings?
When you feel like you can actually hold a discussion regarding this subject without reverting to strawmen or personal insults, feel free to look me up.

Secondly, the one's I've "jumped" in your words, were the people employing the age old favourite of yours where no one is allowed to even imply that changing class design and adding abilities is in any way a good thing.
But hey, keep doing you buddy, I'm sure someone values your opinion somewhere.

[deviantcultist]

And so goes balance theme again...

Well, OK, you have balance, but if and only if all "class" mechanics, everything that makes a class "class" (namely, mechanics make class "class" from systems point of view, not its name, hence requirement for each representative to have all of them) - stabbed and buried in nameless grave. All are "stylistically" different, but they are all played same "builder/spender"... but "sane" balanced (for being useful "in E-sports" minds)... I somehow don’t see joyful faces

Ask for "witches" (whatever class' name), don't ask to break system for get your private needs.

<<BACK

Hollow theories and you ignore a basic problem. Shadow boasted on getting a solid identity and they threaten to ruin it because the backwards Classic fanboys want class to matter more than spec and turn Priest into support-based Class that has no dark/dps niche in one of its specs.

I don't see how losing something we've gotten for a few expansions now justifies private needs or whataver grand assumption you are trying to make.

[zlygork]

I preferred distinct specs personally. The only changes I'd make is remove the weapon limitations for specific specs, and make stat priorities somewhat closer in certain cases so you don't have to carry 3 sets of armor if you enjoy changing specs often for fun