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  1. #421
    Dreadlord Kegler's Avatar
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    I always loved mage in vanilla, being able to choose from which school of spells you could cast, especially when locked out of a particular school.

  2. #422
    I'm speaking specifically about spec identity added in Legion, when they really focused on it and (mostly) succeeded. Again, just IMO.

  3. #423
    Dreadlord Dragore's Avatar
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    I'm hyped to a certain extent. I am hyped in that utilities that I enjoyed will come back but not everything. I actually really enjoy being a frost mage and frost being everything I use. I feel like right now it's a lot more tilted to spec identity rather then class identity and I'd like the pendulum to swing the other way but not too far.

    For example I main a shaman (enhance). I want to actually feel like I'm playing a shaman rather then a fury warrior or of similar design. Give me my totems back, give me a 2h again. I want to actually feel more like an Arms warrior then a fury warrior if anything. Big stormstrike hits with big WF crits. Shocks. Fire totems.

  4. #424
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    I am not because I feel Blizzard will fuck it up will still adhere to the current class design instead of adding and improving the old class design to the current as it's a dead end gameplay wise.
    Nihilism is not the end but the beginning of what is real. Making something out of nothing.
    Yeah I'm an Asshole but I'd rather be critical as fuck than to sugarcoat everything in fear of offending people. Get tough and endure.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    At some point in WoW's history, it stopped being an RPG and became a glorified visual novel + raid boss simulator.
    TBC, to be exact.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    They are taking literally nothing away from the specs when they do this, so this statement is completely unwarranted... You are acting like this change is going to hamper spec identity when it won't do anything of the sort, because all they did when they started focusing on spec identity was take things away... Clearly the overfocus on spec identity is what stifled overall class design.
    Im thinking of where they could go in a post class world where you can create a character and choose specs from multiple classes instead of always being locked into the same 3 creating more character diversity.
    And class identity to me means spec abilities being replaced by class ones. Thanks to legion blizz created a full frost talent tree without any fire or arcane abilities, and i dont want this reverted

  7. #427
    Are you a Cata baby sounds like a Cata baby to me.

  8. #428
    Mechagnome Averrix's Avatar
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    Just don't be hyped period. Then you won't be as disappointed when it isn't what you want. Everyone should know by now to go into every expansion with low expectations to be pleasantly surprised (Legion) or majorly disappointed (BFA)

  9. #429
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Im thinking of where they could go in a post class world where you can create a character and choose specs from multiple classes instead of always being locked into the same 3 creating more character diversity.
    And class identity to me means spec abilities being replaced by class ones. Thanks to legion blizz created a full frost talent tree without any fire or arcane abilities, and i dont want this reverted
    But you still had a massive list of arcane spells. Just because they weren't damage spells didn't mean they weren't there, and Frost's utility being a different school from its damage (and snares/roots) is a pretty big deal in PvP.

  10. #430
    Warchief Gungnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Im thinking of where they could go in a post class world where you can create a character and choose specs from multiple classes instead of always being locked into the same 3 creating more character diversity.
    And class identity to me means spec abilities being replaced by class ones. Thanks to legion blizz created a full frost talent tree without any fire or arcane abilities, and i dont want this reverted
    That's not really how any of this works.
    We had class identity over spec identity for the majority of the games lifetime, that's where we got most of the iconic abilities we use now.
    They aren't somehow going to remove those and replace them with 'class' ones.. that doesn't make any sense.

    We aren't going to lose Mortal Strike and get Heroic Strike instead, to use an example.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    But you still had a massive list of arcane spells. Just because they weren't damage spells didn't mean they weren't there, and Frost's utility being a different school from its damage (and snares/roots) is a pretty big deal in PvP.
    Arcane utility never bothered me because i figured the frost and fire were unlocked through arcane power, not channelled directly like a shaman so i give that a pass considering its one of the high powers so to speak, but getting fire utility broke it for me, and it always irked me that most of fires utility was frost themed.
    I know school lockouts are a thing but i think that entire system needs to be reworked anyway

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    That's not really how any of this works.
    We had class identity over spec identity for the majority of the games lifetime, that's where we got most of the iconic abilities we use now.
    They aren't somehow going to remove those and replace them with 'class' ones.. that doesn't make any sense.

    We aren't going to lose Mortal Strike and get Heroic Strike instead, to use an example.
    I meant more in place of talents

  12. #432
    The Lightbringer gutnbrg's Avatar
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    I cant wait to pull out rogues and druids with arcane explosion again.

  13. #433
    to follow the thread title:

    not that hyped? quick answer is no. i lost my faith in blizzard a long time ago to be able to deliver on important game changes. i think most of it is just lip service to get people to buy in. im not saying i wont play it, but im not saying i expect to them to do the right shit either. just another wow expansion at the end of the day. it means as much to me as a folded napkin or a decoration. beyond that is just wishful thinking.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVaryag View Post
    How long did you play WoW? This needs some context, If you haven't played before the era of Cataclysm I can understand you being skeptical of the idea of "Class" as you've never truly known what a class is, but rather a spec with a few doodads shared among the class. Go to classic, that alone will teach you what a CLASS truly is, not a spec. And hopefully Shadowlands will do a good job at returning class identity.
    I played since vanilla and I prefer the spec identity philosophy. After all, what's the point of havin a mix of abilities that you are not gonna use?

  15. #435
    Warchief Gungnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arakakao View Post
    I played since vanilla and I prefer the spec identity philosophy. After all, what's the point of havin a mix of abilities that you are not gonna use?
    You say that while having an 'I Miss Pandaria' sig image.
    You do realize that MoP still had the class > spec identity format?

  16. #436
    Bloodsail Admiral Alkizon's Avatar
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    For example I main a shaman (enhance). I want to actually feel like I'm playing a shaman rather then a fury warrior or of similar design. Give me my totems back, give me a 2h again. I want to actually feel more like an Arms warrior then a fury warrior if anything. Big stormstrike hits with big WF crits. Shocks. Fire totems.
    Mhhh, not just this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Also! (regarding story in last link about shamans' Shocks) only frost shock? only?! they had 4 shocks for each element and to mine it looked very “organically” with their class fantasy, not to mention expanding functionality with this; but what about weapons' enchantment, also one for each element, which is mandatory lore functional of this class, it's enough to read orc duels' rules; of course, shamans will say thanks for totems (btw, also too little of them, they had ~17! there much more them to return for different situations of their use, no-no-no! just "two" won't change situation much, it's not how they supposed to be), this is understandable, but this isn't enough (and I'm lazy to remind about types of judgement and seals for paladins), obviously don't ...also this+
    (pictures not mine, taken from here)

    As for "claims" to stings in survival, then everything is much simpler. Answer lies on surface, hunters have no place for melee spec, because these're restrictions on requirements for class design. This question is solved quite simply by returning 3rd slot (in their case) for distant weapon, and all other specs are given half of its available "melee" functionality (with sv got back its base distant part), then it will have at least some reason to be in this class...
    - 17.03.2016 -
    1) What is wrong: remove class foundation (so <url> <url> <url> <url> <url> if hunter knows how to use traps, ranged weapons and work with animals - each specialization should it be able to <url> (of course, in varying degrees, but must be able to, because it is foundation)) and therefore it become so that number of resultant abilities will "less". (you want melee - you go develop another class/spec - there are no more room (only 3) for their specialization now, or you give some melee for every spec <url>)
    - (also some stuff here)
    - 30.06.2017 -
    Idea of the survivor from the beginning was never about melee-zone fighting face to face with warrior or rogue and blowing out everything near you, it always was about put trap and run away alive, about stats and cunning abilities, it was about not be controlled but control others, not be stopped or sticked to the ground, it was about master of range control and surviving. Have you ever seen old talents? <url> Problem was that hunters couldn't throw traps into range back in Vanilla. So they changed sv's last talent (bleed) to Wyvern Sting (control) already even in classic.

    *sarcasm* Give almost the same as 'master of seals'=paladin system taken from them to ench shamans and say that everything is fine with imagination! Y-e-a-h, revolutionary idea! <url> Stings and aspects system isn't fit into hunter theme, let's prune it! <url> We're awesome developers! - Know what? May be I should quote one of you as an answer <url> should I?

    If you could read properly not even links I provided up there, but some others messages in this thread, you'd understand that they weren't talking abot idea is bad, but about it's not fit hunter theme (animals + traps + range weapons, thuse are their basis, Киджи chewed notion of 'class' for you as for a child and it still turned out to be useless). It's just don't fit in hunter class and even more: hunter class theme prevent this idea from developing further, they mutually limit each other the same way as combat rogues becoming pirates.
    (most of what has been said was many times clarified and proven on forums)
    - 02.08.2017 -
    and I'm not talking about hybrid-weapon classes like hunters <url> (reference from here <url>) who used both types of weapons in full force, they had good bonus talents for them and it also explained no-shot zone, but not mythical arrows in head at point-blank range.

    - - - snip - - -

    Because in order to introduce such in game they will have to give a little melee for each spec, for preserved class integrity, and not each spec is a separate class, but, as you correctly noted, there is no secondary=bonus weapon and we have returned to what I said above to Minan.
    However, in this interpretation, it simply shouldn't exist. As for me, it’s easier to give these functions to another class (as I have already said many times before): leave small “melee” utility for entire class and 3rd slot for weapons (in fact, this is true for all classes), since it's so historically true (= universal and justified), and that's it. They don't need such specialization, even if just because (as mentioned above in friend’s quote) such combination doesn't allow system to function normally, nor idea to develop forward separately. That's all. But stings and aspects (like, among other things, design of traps in form of "traps" instead of stupid inappropriate mines/bombs and grenades; hmm, druid said that they discussed this, but I don't see anything in EU-links, apparently it happened somewhere on ru-part forum, which my meager knowledge still don't let me work with edit: was right, asked and got the link) are chic, stylistically appropriate and necessary part of the whole class, which has mandatory place within their class fantasy.

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    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-11-29 at 08:59 AM.
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  17. #437
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Im thinking of where they could go in a post class world where you can create a character and choose specs from multiple classes instead of always being locked into the same 3 creating more character diversity.
    I think that would be horrendously stupid, personally.

    And class identity to me means spec abilities being replaced by class ones.
    I don't care what it means to you, I care what it means to Blizzard, and all they've talked about doing is returning baseline stuff that was taken away for no benefit, like Shattering Throw, poisons, auras, totems.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-11-13 at 08:05 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    I think that would be horrendously stupid, personally.



    I don't care what it means to you, I care what it means to Blizzard, and all they've talked about doing is returning baseline stuff that was taken away for no benefit, like Shattering Throw, poisons, auras, totems.
    I consider not having to blow 3 gcds before each fight for totems a benefit but maybe thats just me.

    and considering that there is more distinction within a single spec now than between specs in the past id say being able to mix and match certain specs with eachother would be awesome. No reason a rogue couldnt pick up a bow and become a marksman hunter for example.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVaryag View Post
    How long did you play WoW? This needs some context, If you haven't played before the era of Cataclysm I can understand you being skeptical of the idea of "Class" as you've never truly known what a class is, but rather a spec with a few doodads shared among the class. Go to classic, that alone will teach you what a CLASS truly is, not a spec. And hopefully Shadowlands will do a good job at returning class identity.

    To me, as someone playing 15 years It feels shit to know I've had over 50 abilities and then am restricted to 15 per spec and the other 5 were removed. It felt like my class was butchered, standardized and according to analytics and data alone, was streamlined, not due to player feedback or criticism.
    I don't know what game you were playing but there was never any class identity in WoW.
    No one ever said "We need a Druid for the dungeon, doesn't matter the spec." That didn't even work for damage classes, people never wanted any mage for MC because "they all have frost bolts".

    Your spec always defined your identity, yes all mages actually had frostbolts but if you didn't spec them they were slow to cast and the snare was very short. When i leveled my mage as fire in vanilla i never used frostbolt, you simply leveled better with just fireballs.
    Without talent points and gear off specs were just useless.
    I don't even know where this "class identity" nonsense is coming from, i never even heard that term prior to the classic servers.

    I'm not a fan of Blizzards excessive pruning but that has nothing to do with "class identity".

  20. #440
    The thing is that this criticism is based on the MoP system of talents pretty much. But people are forgetting one thing... the Level Squish. The level squish allows them a chance to go back to the Cata system where we picked a spec and then had talent trees to enhance them with other things or even the Vanilla trees can make a comeback too.

    The only reason they really had to go after Wrath was that it would just be too obnoxious and a waste of time to come up with around 20 new talents per class every two years as well as attempt to balance them all the time. They have to keep adding them each time we level because otherwise, BfA would have us at 41/40/40 right now.

    Then there will be all the nerfs that will happen as time goes on because combinations they missed will be found such as the 40/21/0 BM Hunter spec in Wrath that was in fashion in 3.0 but got nerfed in 3.1 when Readiness no longer reset Beastial Wrath.

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