Anyone NOT that hyped for 'return to class'?

[Schizoide]

And yet somehow Elemental Shamans manage today with Totem Mastery.

Yes, but that is their choice to spec into that talent. It is not mandatory. It isn't even the best talent in all situations, Aftershock is competitive on that tier.

[Kralljin]

And yet somehow Elemental Shamans manage today with Totem Mastery.

Because Totem Mastery is fine, unlike Searing totem.

Totem Mastery buffs me, i don't have to re drop because the boss moved, i only have to (re) drop if their duration runs out (which is rather gentle with its 2 minute duration) or if i move out of range, which is not that common as range dps.

But Searing totem has to be re dropped whenever the boss moves out of range.

Example:
I stand at Max Range and drop Totem Mastery.
Boss gets moved away from me.
I just follow up and still have Totem Mastery buff.
No need to re drop it.

Now with Searing Totem.
I stand at max Range and drop Searing totem.
Boss moves away from me.
I have to follow up AND drop Searing totem.


With Totem Mastery, the control is entirely within my hands, i decide where those totems are and where i am to receive the benefit (=Buffs), as long as i remain within a 40yard radius.
With Searing totem, i can only determine where the Totem is, but in order to receive the benefit of Searing (=Damage) i also have to take the boss position into account, which is out of my control.

And Searing totem is most certainly the one totem we have to talk about, because the other totems we've seen aren't that problematic or will most likely have only minor / situational effects.

[Puupi]

Because Totem Mastery is fine, unlike Searing totem.

Totem Mastery buffs me, i don't have to re drop because the boss moved, i only have to (re) drop if their duration runs out (which is rather gentle with its 2 minute duration) or if i move out of range, which is not that common as range dps.

But Searing totem has to be re dropped whenever the boss moves out of range.

Example:
I stand at Max Range and drop Totem Mastery.
Boss gets moved away from me.
I just follow up and still have Totem Mastery buff.
No need to re drop it.

Now with Searing Totem.
I stand at max Range and drop Searing totem.
Boss moves away from me.
I have to follow up AND drop Searing totem.


With Totem Mastery, the control is entirely within my hands, i decide where those totems are and where i am to receive the benefit (=Buffs), as long as i remain within a 40yard radius.
With Searing totem, i can only determine where the Totem is, but in order to receive the benefit of Searing (=Damage) i also have to take the boss position into account, which is out of my control.

Searing Totem was by far the most annoying fucking thing about Shaman previously. It was awesome when they finally removed that damn thing.

And now they are bringing it back?! What is Blizzard smoking...?

[Kralljin]

And now they are bringing it back?! What is Blizzard smoking...?

Monkey's paw.
People asked for old buttons, people get old buttons back.

That is a massive concern of mine that they just randomnly restore some buttons to some classes for the sake of flavour without updating their gameplay, whereas others get powerful abilities back.

I'd be fine with Fire totems like Fire Nova Totem (or even Magma) with the built in "Totem Launcher", but Searing can just fuck off.

[Schattenlied]

I consider not having to blow 3 gcds before each fight for totems a benefit but maybe thats just me.

It's been one GCD since Wrath, don't be absurd.

and considering that there is more distinction within a single spec now than between specs in the past id say being able to mix and match certain specs with eachother would be awesome. No reason a rogue couldnt pick up a bow and become a marksman hunter for example.

And I disagree with you entirely. How much sense would it make for a Holy Paladin to put down their libram, and become a warlock or a mage, or a druid? A Shaman? How much sense would it make for any of those classes to become one of the others? Exactly ZERO. Just because it would make sense in a couple situations doesn't mean it makes sense in the majority. It makes little enough sense that our characters up and completely forget how to cast most of their spells they knew just 10 seconds ago when they switch specs, it would make even less sense if they forgot all of them... It's a horrendous idea and I hope to god it never happens.

[bloodmoth13]

It's been one GCD since Wrath, don't be absurd.



And I disagree with you entirely. How much sense would it make for a Holy Paladin to put down their libram, and become a warlock or a mage, or a druid? A Shaman? How much sense would it make for any of those classes to become one of the others? Exactly ZERO. Just because it would make sense in a couple situations doesn't mean it makes sense in the majority. It makes little enough sense that our characters up and completely forget how to cast most of their spells they knew just 10 seconds ago when they switch specs, it would make even less sense if they forgot all of them... It's a horrendous idea and I hope to god it never happens.

Thats a strawman. Of course there would be restrictions, paladin could still spec arms or holy priest no worries.
Make some restrictions based on weapon type, armor type or magic school.

- - - Updated - - -

It'll be 1 GCD, but that still sucks when it's just a button you need to press before EVERY fight. Oldschool Hunter's Mark is even worse, it's a GCD you need to cast on every target. These are boring, passive abilities that you just need to maintain, pure busywork, and they should not be returned to the game in those original versions.

Different versions, sure, that could be cool. If Flameshock also dropped Searing Totem, for example. Or Kill Command automatically applied Hunter's Mark. Both of those things would be fine.

Exactly. I even like searing totem bit holy heck did it suck.
Make it fire stronger bolts less frequently and fire one when first placed.
I dont miss windfury totem or any of the other buff totems.

[Schizoide]

I don't miss any of them and strongly prefer the current design where every totem has a specific purpose and active utility, other than Totem Mastery which as noted above is an optional talent for people that actually like that.

But if they want every shaman using totems regularly for class identity purposes there are ways to make that cool without requiring a GCD before every pull. Adding totems to other abilities makes sense-- Earthquake totem. Crash Lightning totem.

[Kralljin]

Adding totems to other abilities makes sense-- Earthquake totem. Crash Lightning totem.

They did that in Legion and it was fucking annoying because you couldn't drop Earthquake (totem) from ledges and so forth.
Basically Heroic leap² and they already removed that with the first patch into Legion to get rid off those issues solely caused by them turning Earthquake into a Totem spell.

Legion Patch 7.0.3 (2016-07-19): Changed to Earthquake Totem.
Legion Patch 7.1.0 (2016-10-25): Earthquake Totem has been renamed to Earthquake and no longer summons a totem.

Same goes for Fire Elemental and Earth Elemental, them being totem spells before Legion only caused problems Blizzard couldn't solve in a efficient manner because some guy ~10 years ago had the bright idea of letting a totem spawn a guardian pet.

Point is, simply turning a spell into a totem for the sake of turning it into a "totem spell" is not fun and doesn't support the class fantasy in any fashion.
That only works if you'd tie in talents / bonuses whatever to that totem mechanic, which i doubt Blizzard will do.

[Schizoide]

I agree that they had implementation issues and "just add a totem to it!" doesn't in any way shape or form make the ability fun. But if they feel obliged to make shamans use totems rotationally, that's a way to do it without screwing everybody too badly.

[Alkizon]

Oh great “masters” shamans, who wrote that whole nonsense up there (about fact that something somehow somewhere is uncomfortable for you, and what's bothering you so much), which ones for so many years of game didn't understand what is fantasy (= mechanics) of this class consists of. 4 Elements!+ All mechanics revolve around them, they interact with world in this way, 4 enchants for weapons, 4 shocks, 4 types of totems, each of which is responsible for basic needs. The only relevant fix they made in all this time was to add buttons to move/put(together) them in place where shaman wants. Main task, main mechanics of this class was to monipulate “additional” abilities (assisting group and yourself), especially with regard to game for enhancement specialization - hence gameplay based on more “passive + procs” rotation. When they began to expand this part (they added “needed left hand action”, etc.) it began to conflict/limit choice in actions and equipment... do you understand this? Therefore, your crying that golems are tied to totems is inappropriate; crying that "too lazy to rearrange totems" (which with talent later became possible to move for 1 GCD, moreover, even under someone’s feet, is simply smart defensive and offensive ability)... and here you are crying about it all *spittle* It’s disgusting for me to talk to you farther, what kind, to hell, of shamans are you after that.

I'll repeat for all especially stubborn (any class), fixated on "me!" ones, friend's phrase:

Doesn't metter that you didn't like it; someone did. It just wasn't fit your style of play, so you could.. I don't know.. don't play it?

this was difference in gameplay - someone had a piano, but someone had a passive stuff, someone had procs and someone had rotation (eg. stun-lock style), someone had combo points and someone had constant control over own resource, someone was busy and someone have time to put an eye on friends (here, by the way, what was real "hybrid (class) rent" of classic design, but not "trimmed" (D)HPS, they just had number of other tasks and even when they were added more of (D)HPS/buttons, without depriving them of hybrid functionality, there were many wonderful people who coped excellently with all their duties, and it was not everyone’s choice, but that was the charm and differentiation between master and amateur), etc., etc. I understand that "sMuSh da ButnZ" is more fun for you, so choose class+build that will cover/reflect your needs, don't try to put each of them to this level, hence yours as "I-want!", and devs as "OK! we'll do"+"no-problema", problems.

- semantical continuation <1> <2> <3>

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[Kralljin]

But if they feel obliged to make shamans use totems rotationally, that's a way to do it without screwing everybody too badly.

The sane approach would simply be to
A.Make a similiar statement like regarding stances, making it clear that said design is simply "outdated" and thus one shouldn't have major expectations.
B.Update those spells that they have a modern design and are fun to use.

I mean, your suggestion doesn't even have the "unpruning" aspect, it's just renaming abilities for sake of fulfilling some aspect of "class fantasy".
The major issue with totems was simply that Blizzard never bothered to built the class around in it in way that's actually fun.
Perhaps because they couldn't find a proper way to do it or didn't have to resources for it, but that's another discussion.

In Classic, they were just your extremely powerful buff sticks with some draw backs, but they didn't stand out as "extremely inconvenient" in comparison to what other classes had to deal with.
The entire game was one massive inconvenience, the issue is however, while other classes moved on, Totems remained clunky and Blizzard just kept them for the sake of Class Fantasy without ever putting some actual meat behind that statement.

Could totems be fun and central to the Shaman class?
Perhaps, but that would require a massive rework of the Shaman class, which Blizzard won't do, because they already shot down the idea of major reworks.

Also, let's be clear on one thing, this is mainly about Searing totem, because Blizzard will most likely not return raidwide totems with powerful buffs.
Not "because totems" but because the support role has not been a thing in WoW since Wotlk.

You could probably design a bunch of talents around totems and they'd be fun, i mean, totems like Windrush totem or Earthen Shield totem are kind of fun.

4 enchants for weapons, 4 shocks, 4 types of totems, each of which is responsible for basic needs.

From Wotlk to WoD, we had 5 Weapon Enchants.
There only was a fourth shock for a short time, Wind Shock, which was then re named Wind shear and completely decoupled from the shock mechanic.
Before that we had 3, now, we still have 3.

So yeah, that's bullshit already.

That aside, the problem of something like weapon enchants wasn't even their concept, Blizzard just never bothered to give them proper gameplay behind it.
I also don't recall that having a chance to slow my target with melee attacks is one of my "basic needs" as Resto / Ele Shaman.
I got Earthbind / Frost shock for that.

Main task, main mechanics of this class was to monipulate “additional” abilities (assisting group and yourself), especially with regard to game for enhancement specialization

The support role has been dead since Wotlk.
Not like the Shaman class was asked on that, Shaman was totally gutted by that change.

Like, you're free to think whatever Shaman is supposed to be, but unless Blizzard brings that specific niche back, this aspect of the Shaman class will not return.
Not because i or some other players don't enjoy that, but because simply has moved away from the concept of a class primarily being centered around support.
Same just doesn't go for Shaman, Paladin sits in a similiar boat.

Doesn't metter that you didn't like it; someone did. It just wasn't fit your style of play, so you could.. I don't know.. don't play it?

This statement is so damn nonsaying.

You could also turn this around say "if you enjoy something, someone didn't", who's right now?
The one who liked because he's "positive" about it?

Like please, try to apply some common sense and judge things individually rather than "if you don't like things, you're wrong because others might like it".

[Pony Soldier]

I seem to be in the minority but I like the way classes are now. When I look back at some of my classes like my mage who I always had spec'd as fire and still having frost and arcane abilities that I never used I just think of how much of a waste it was. I hardly ever used them only in certain situations when I was in a panic and needed to use something.

I too like spec identity and I too am not all that hyped for this class change as it could ruin the fun I am having with the classes now. If they stay relatively the same but support more class wide abilities I'd be totally fine with that but I think they had the right idea to make classes like fire mages FIRE and frost mages FROST and arcane mages ARCANE and so on. It makes it easier to focus on using the spells of your spec that actually matter and not getting confused or having your screen cluttered up with 100 different spells and abilities.

So I hope they're continuing with that idea but just building on it to make them more enjoyable to the people who didn't like them and try to find a middle ground.

[Alkizon]

From Wotlk

kind of yes and no

Well, okay, but meaning remains the same, as a whole I talked about historical justice, that is, about base laid down by original devs themselves (they said so themselves, it’s classic). As for number of specific needs, it’s excusable for me to be mistaken in small details since I never played shaman. Still main enchants were 4, 5th was added simply because they decided to promote nature theme separately (it wasn't in base elements at first for shamans), 4th shock was added for the same reason (in order to restore historical justice, it had same school as earthen, but represented formally “different” element). Actually, WotLK in terms of fantasy, as I have said many times before, has already slightly “gone” from standard, and this is not only with shamans, so part of inappropriate changes.

For the same reason, you were "puzzled" by extra abilities at the end of this part of message, and they just weren’t because of "rotation" or "much need" for control, but since they were required to complete elements' picture (class fantasy), this actually made it possible to combine them in more convenient way and take advantage of distance with those with whom there was such need = good players didn't interfere with such variety, rather opposite - welcomed it.

I’m absolutely not going to justify WotLK (never did):

The support role has been dead since Wotlk.

it in some sence is true, but that was only the beginning, "WotLK-supports" still had enough of support (actually, it was said in my message, I just didn’t indicate expansion name). Take a closer look at the text. They began to die here precisely because design of encounters stopped taking them into account, but they still did excellent support in PvP, that is, they performed their functions few more expansions after devs turned away from them.

This statement is so damn nonsaying.

As for this, you didn't understand the essence, as I see. This phrase doesn't send you to cry in the corner, it indicates that it's normal to have different gameplay for different classes and builds, and if you don't like it, it puts you in predicament or distress, then this is your personal problem. It requires normal "original" design, but not everyone same as everyone - at least just for having lively choice, borders of which slowly and confidently erased for the sake of "supposedly" balance, in attempts to take E-sport direction (for both PvP and PvE). Is that more clear?

[xZerocidex]

Spec identity wouldn't be so bad if they gave players interesting things that adds to spec identity. The problem is that they didn't.

They took away stuff but gave nothing interesting in return for each spec. It was worse when BfA came because we no longer had artifact weapons to add to our spec.

[Kralljin]

Well, okay, but meaning remains the same, as a whole I talked about historical justice, that is, about base laid down by original devs themselves (they said so themselves, it’s classic).

The issue with that argument is that uses a rather flawed design as basis.

For example, all of those four enchants had pretty much one purpose:
Increase auto attack damage.

Outside of Enhancement Windfury, it was four times the same spell of varying reliability.
Vanilla's design doesn't necessarily needs to be put on a pedastal in every case, sometimes it was just weird.

it’s excusable for me to be mistaken in small details since I never played a shaman.

This in itself is already hypocritical to begin with.
You make here on massive sweep over people who actually play Shaman, tell them what Shaman is supposed to be and what the class should have, then flat out admit that you've never played one.

If you would have played one, you could perhaps understand why Totems (especially Searing totem) are not to everyone's liking.

Still main enchants were 4, 5th was added simply because they decided to promote nature theme separately

No.
It was added because Blizzard decided to make those weapon enchants attractive for Ele and Resto as well, where they've been useless.
Flametongue gave some spelldamage bonus and earthliving +heal with a proc chance on a hot.

If you believe that it's some thematical idea behind every new spell, you're just wrong.
Earthliving was simply added because there was no healing themed enchant.

it's in some sence is true, but that was only the beginning, "WotLK-supports"

In larger groups, that was irrelevant, because almost any buff was covered multiple times.

it puts you in predicament or distress, then this is your personal problem.

Who talks about "distress"?

Because i don't like something, doesn't mean i'm in a predicament or "in distress".

[Doffen]

Spec identity wouldn't be so bad if they gave players interesting things that adds to spec identity. The problem is that they didn't.

They took away stuff but gave nothing interesting in return for each spec. It was worse when BfA came because we no longer had artifact weapons to add to our spec.

Well the weapon in Legion was part of the class design in Legion, and it gave us both active and passive abilities. The problem going into BfA however is how you describe, we lost all that and got nothing. Legion was just overall better because of this. Spec identity in Legion was that because of the iconic weapon and what they gave in regard to gameplay. We just lost some of that in BfA.

Which is why I personally don't mind going back to more class stuff if it makes sense. If it gives it some kind of identity to the class/spec it's allright. If it improves gameplay, great!

[Exhuman]

No Burst of Speed for rogues no hype.

Simple as that.

[Schizoide]

The sane approach would simply be to
A.Make a similiar statement like regarding stances, making it clear that said design is simply "outdated" and thus one shouldn't have major expectations.
B.Update those spells that they have a modern design and are fun to use.

Right. But I don't think they will do that. I think they will overreact, as they so often do, and shamans will have to spend a GCD before every single fight again to put up boring passive buffs/DoT.

Re Burst of Speed, F YEAH. I miss that so much.

[Alkizon]

Increase auto attack damage.

That's why I talked about predominance of "passive + procs" gameplay for them in message you quoted before. It would be part of their gameplay, which gave them opportunity to free up time for "other" actions without making them completely useless in general. Everything normal with this part, what are bothering you so much?

This in itself is already hypocritical to begin with.

It’s not true, it’s rather on contrary - funny, because “these shamans” speak exclusively from “their own” preferences, while ignoring design as a whole. I don’t need to play shaman to understand design in general (especially when it comes to fantasy or fundamental mechanics). For the same reason, if, for example, I make design of concrete class, I won’t immediately become its master, it will be question of “technical adaptation”, but I still will remain fully competent within its design, won't I?

No.

This is unprovable on both sides, simply because it is.

...and they added 4th "shock" so that there was cheap interrupt that won't generate unnecessary threat, right? I can come up with many different reasons, theme of "class fantasy" didn't have any marketing significance before, now it does, it would be interesting how they introduced such changes now... maybe we will even hear it soon I don’t see any reason now to stir the air, think whatever you want, but I'll remain with my opinion about this part.

In larger groups, that was irrelevant, because almost any buff was covered multiple times.

I already said, I don’t mind ... it’s only buff superimposed at group only before, not full raid, therefore eg. shamans were distributed according to their talents into different groups. Do you remember when they began with "full raid" such buffs? (nevertheless, except buffs, supports have much more work, that’s why they still found great use in PvP some time even after specified events (especially in mass ones), it was and remains, but here I should direct you to topics where we discussed it, still you already ignored them in previous posts, which puts me in some quandary) I don’t see what you're trying to prove here, I thought that we more or less agreed on this part.

don't like something

I think that here is more likely some kind wander of translation, that's exactly what I meant - discontent, dislike, protest, desire to dispute

[Kralljin]

That's why I talked about predominance of "passive + procs" gameplay for them in message you quoted before.

If a random damage proc is gameplay to, then i think you're just extremely easy to please.

It’s not true, it’s rather on contrary - funny, because “these shamans” speak exclusively from “their own” preferences, while ignoring design as a whole.

If other classes aren't restricted as extremely like totems did Shaman, then yeah, that's an opinion formed by looking at the greater picture.
If you just look on this one class and say "this is their identity" ignoring any drawbacks and looking what other classes have, you are ignoring the greater picture.

I don’t see what you're trying to prove here, I thought that we more or less agreed on this part.

Because it's extremely unlikely that Blizzard moves back to support totems, let alone permanent ones.
Blizzard is already extremely picky with buffs (as we've seen with BfA, there are just three, five you include monk / dh debuff), they're not going to throw in a bunch support totems.

Especially because as said, the concept is a support class has been dead since Wotlk and Blizzard hasn't shown much to change that.

I think that here is more likely some kind wander of translation, that's exactly what I meant - discontent, dislike, protest, desire to dispute

Then it just goes back to the original point.
This saying is utterly nonsaying.

If someone has a problem with something, they're not automatically wrong simply because someone likes it.
I am aware of the fact that people have different opinions.

theme of "class fantasy" didn't have any marketing significance before, now it does, it would be interesting how they introduced such changes now... maybe we will even hear it soon

You're reading too much into that.
Because Blizzard primarily said, you won't lose spells when respeccing and they'll "de prune".

On top of that, massive reworks have also been taken off the table.