Anyone NOT that hyped for 'return to class'?

[Wildpantz]

One big problem we used to have with to many abilities it confused ALOT of people so the skillcap was even wider. There are other ways to deal with class and specs. Just look now there people who cant do a opener or even brake 20k dps with current gear adding more spells will not improve that.

[Schizoide]

It's not a skillcap issue really, the problem was many of those abilities acted as newbie traps. They would spec deep into the frost tree and then cast fireball. Why? Well, it's in their spellbook, so they felt like they should use it.

I do strongly prefer spec identity to class identity. I like that Outlaw is a pirate, and Unholy is exploding DoTs, and Arcane is all about mana conservation, and I like that Frost Mage uses all frost spells and has the spec-specific icicle mechanic, all of those things make these specs feel special to me.

Now if they add back class-wide abilities that we aren't supposed to use, well, that'll confuse newbies but it won't impact me at all so I'm cool with it. But like I've said throughout this thread, Blizzard always overcompensates with these high-level design changes, so I do expect a lot of the spec identity added throughout Legion and BFA, stuff which I personally really appreciate, to be lost.

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if all three hunter specs are forced to blow a GCD casting Hunter's Mark on every single target they attack.

[Alkizon]

If a random damage proc is gameplay

They shouldn't satisfy neither me nor anyone, just follow design, and this is our business how and what to be satisfied with, this is the point, have different ways. You still don’t want to understand this. This class had such "fantasy" (= game mechanics), another different one. That's all.

If other classes aren't restricted as extremely like totems did Shaman

Other classes have other limitation and other design/mechanics = they have their own "totems". Insolvent argument.

Especially because as said, the concept is a support class has been dead since Wotlk

And? still can't see what you're trying to prove to me... I'm not Blizzard

This saying is utterly nonsaying.

No, they are wrong because they don't follow original design, but try to change it instead of adapting to it, try to object to its key points. So... his statement is completely consistent.

You're reading too much into that.

I read as much as I want, especially knowing the “motivation” of their previous actions. They say one thing, show the second, and do the third. You can’t predict it. But still I have full moral and historical justification to discuss this in a such vein

It's funny that roh doesn't understand difference between requirement to constantly update during the battle (to be part of rotation) and buffs, which occupies part of limited number of slots (= have to choose, but then be part of passive gameplay), between passive own buff about which you can forget completely since it don't required any you participation and buff that again take part of limited number of slots, but then still would be part of passive strategy... oh yes it’s a-a-a-all the same - this exactly stuff which is "buttons for the sake of more buttons", just to press-press-press and repeat, so that there is less time to think about others, and more about beloved yourself, so that hands be busy and head doesn't work.

[Spotnick]

You people who keep saying fireball is useless for a frost mage.. that's the thing.. it's a mage, you specialize in frost, you're not a "frost mage".

Plus it's the game design that evolved and you don't have frost resisting npcs anymore in game that forced you to use fireball. You do in Classic.

Personally the spec has always been a stupid idea from Blizzard when they removed your "specs" to do the current specializations.. before you could have a pve and pvp spec, not a "frost" or "fire" spec. Those type of specs should be role related, not "spec" related.. your TALENTS should be what makes you specialize.

[rohoz]

You people who keep saying fireball is useless for a frost mage.. that's the thing.. it's a mage, you specialize in frost, you're not a "frost mage".

Plus it's the game design that evolved and you don't have frost resisting npcs anymore in game that forced you to use fireball. You do in Classic.

Personally the spec has always been a stupid idea from Blizzard when they removed your "specs" to do the current specializations.. before you could have a pve and pvp spec, not a "frost" or "fire" spec. Those type of specs should be role related, not "spec" related.. your TALENTS should be what makes you specialize.

"your specialization is not how you specialize, thats what you use talents for"

lmao

prime mmo-c

[Thelxi]

I just think it is a weird direction to then also use as a marketing item. It's just weird. Like who the hell asked for less spec focus and more class focus lol.

[Advent]

No, they are wrong because they don't follow original design, but try to change it instead of adapting to it, try to object to its key points.

That doesn't make them wrong. It's their original design, and they have a right to change it however they see fit. That isn't up to us. We can provide feedback to help guide the process somewhat, but we're basically passengers on this flight. We aren't the Captain.

I just think it is a weird direction to then also use as a marketing item. It's just weird. Like who the hell asked for less spec focus and more class focus lol.

No idea, I actually enjoy the spec focus because I'm theory it allows them to deliver more nuanced game play. The problem is that without the artifacts, they've dropped the ball and turned nearly every class/spec into resource builder/spender play styles. Not everyone enjoys that. I think it is their job to diversify the play styles between specs. Arms and Fury for example, play almost nothing alike.

[Alkizon]

Advent
That doesn't make them wrong.

They = players in this sentense, they asked to change something that didn't fit their playstyle, while all that was required of them was to adapt or find exactly what fit out of proposed options, there was broad choice, there is simply no such choice right now, but... if you yourself started talking about this. Even if they = devs, they're still mistaken because it was they who (by their indulgence/connivance?) brought situation to such deplorable state. So, again it's not true what you said, they are also wrong, because it’s just they don’t follow first/original design, no-no-no

I understand that this is their game, so they can spin it round and round wherever (and don't care about originals, or rules, or players) they want bla-bla-bla, well, but they’ve twisted out to the way, that they turned in the end to opposite direction, so why was need to change working system after all? Greed? Incompetence? Spinelessness? I'm not to judge here, just point out how it was when it worked. Choice remains absolutely completely with them. You see, that I don't put any ultimatums, I just explain the way.

By the way, all that we discussed with regards to “passive/procs” gameplay is relevant to paladins' mechanics as well, but it was implemented in a different manner: as mentioned in one of friend’s quotes I used before, they had (more reasonable than current, a little similar to that, shamans' "weapon buff" mechanics) mechanics of seals and judgments, and their “totems” were auras (but being simpler to use so had less "bonus part", that is, they had their own version of limitation). The only thing is that vanilla version was still quite crude in implementation (but not in idea itself, everything was good with original idea), they were developed further and everything fell into places. For the same reason, I recall here (in support discussion), good old range SV (dot~passive/procs so have time to control (assistant) gameplay = mechanics).

ps. My ultimatums ended in new models discussion, in fact it still remains main and almost single "unplayable" key pretensions for me:

The same mistake they made when they introduced new models into the game. Since they didn't become adequate replacement for old (they completely different), they had to organize it at least through customization system (which would be more adequate and fairer), but they didn't, which resulted in game abandonment for certain group of subscribers... like myself (I'd endure many different changes in game organization, but not this one, no way)

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Thelxi
I just think it is a weird direction to then also use as a marketing item. It's just weird. Like who the hell asked for less spec focus and more class focus lol.

People have been since it all started, that is, for more than 3 (I wouldn't be afraid to even put 5 number here, but I just don’t have so old archival data to refer to it) years in a row already. And by the way, my congratulations to you about finally opened connection

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[Polybius]

I’m too lazy now to make any specific brain movements to write you something in framework of this issue, but this isn't necessary, because everything about it is in link from the quote, that you used (in fact, there is a discussion of this particular issue, that's friend's stuff). Quote of justice:
- 01.08.2017 -


- 02.08.2017 -

It's about mechanics, as you can see, as for “stylistic” features, they didn’t exist, moreover, they aren't needed, because these are exclusively personal preferences of each RP-customization... or maybe players have become so poor on “fantasy”, that now without indication/limitations they can’t even choose anything on their own?

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You can switch Roll the Bones for Slice and Dice, even then rolling dice is also associated with gambling. Outlaw is not exclusively pirates. You have to use talents and transmogs to customize it into a pirate. Or are you suggesting they go back to minimalist animations and particle effects that are no longer visible in modern encounters?

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I played a Ret paladin in MoP actually, we were far from FOTM.
But I'm glad to see that in your pursuit to justify your bitterness that you jump to assumptions.
.

If you exclusively played paladin you wouldn't have boasted about playing other classes earlier. Reading your other comments one can find irony in the tone of your posts.

[kaintk]

if they dont give me back my army of dead on my dk frost, the game is rip

[united]

Power Word: Shield in Shadowform? Yuck. Frost Nova as a Fire Mage? Gross.

Spec bleedover feels appropriate in a lot of classes for me - DK, DH, Paladin, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, and Warrior. But classes like Druid, Hunter, Mage, Monk, and Priest I am a lot more picky about spec bleed over because for these classes specs seem so much more polarizing, opposite, or distinct from one another.

Some of these are more egregious than others. Monks can follow Yu'lon, Xuen, Niuzao, and Chiji all at the same time, but to some extent it would feel very wrong to see yellow orbs or summon Niuzao as a Windwalker, y'know? It also feels wrong to me to use a ranged Serpent Sting as a Survival Hunter, when I feel like I should be using a melee Lacerate.

Some abilities have great spec bleed-over and are just pure "fun". But some abilities can just feel so very wrong to use in certain specs, and I hope they keep that in mind.

I completely disagree with everything you said. Imo it's beyond stupid that we forget how to cast basic spells just because we're specialized as a certain spec. As for Shadow Priests casting PW Shield: they're still priests. I know it's hard to remember with how they changed them to be old god wannabees in Legion, but it's the truth. There's no reason why they shouldn't be able to cast their basic, essential spells. They could make a glyph to turn it purple for those that wanna go full void, but it's great that they're returning to class.

[americandavey]

Its a con, plain and simple. So they can say, "Look we listen to the players, yada, yada, yada, etc." If they really listen to players, we would have seen talent trees back with meaningful choices and no stupid filler talents. So the player can be really rewarded when hitting that next level. Nope, they just want to give classes a few spells back.

[Alkizon]

Polybius
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no, I suggest they get back to design that puts mechanics above gimmicks: no hooks, pistols (as for Roll the Bones - idea/design of this ability is separately, same as, for example, majority of current PvP perks, causes on making wish for their author to not touch project with his convulsing mind) and other nonsense (or this whole routine extends to the whole class, but I'd not like this much, because there are many ways to introduce alternative class that will close this part of mechanics like "middle distance battle", and where such mechanics will be much more appropriate; this stuff isn't for such class). I thought it was obvious from friend's quotes, or didn't you read them?

Even simpler: (as has been repeatedly explained in detail not once) over-specs gimmicks are pinching player’s thematic choice and introduces chaos into class integrity (= its core mechanics).

As for effects, then - yes, I would be more happy with logical and justified, albeit modest effects, rather than comic/anime-like, still often simplified-in-quality, obnoxious disgrace style, which turns seemingly very ordinary blow into some kind of unnaturaly colorfull mini-explosion... and of course especially - not kind of "dices comparable to character's size scattered around" (don't know what they smoked, by levels of silliness this idea has great potential in catching up with over cartoony style of new models (also plot itself), very well complements their composition, like flies do cow "patties")

Also this thread (summary).

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[Gungnir]

If you exclusively played paladin you wouldn't have boasted about playing other classes earlier. Reading your other comments one can find irony in the tone of your posts.

Ah yes, I forgot an account was locked to a single character.
Silly playerbase, you better let Blizz know that alts shouldn't exist.

[Shakana]

As I've played since WoW launch, I am DYING to get back to class identity rather than spec identity.

The last two expansions since their whole 'spec identity' shtick has been the worst expansions thus far when it comes to class design and I don't think that's a coincidence.

I'm dying to class identity as well. (Mostly cause of my mage, some other classes are ok even). I feel like wow needs to give more options that are not that specific on a spec. But after Legion, i guess that would implicate many stuff, such as artifacts and mounts, i don't know how you'll do stuff like that, i hope they remind themselves to not make stuff like that bugged, even on transmogs and such. We will see how it will all play out in the end. I'm hoping for more than what it was presented on the powerpoint blizzcon.

[Roujeaux]

I just hope they won't end up messing up specs by mixing in unrelated bullshit. I certainly don't want Corruption to be a thing for Destruction Warlocks.

This was my train of thought when I heard Curse of Doom was going to be baseline. I think the baseline stuff should be restricted primarily to utility based situations. Don't screw up the spec rotations in the process.

[EbonBehelit-]

Power Word: Shield in Shadowform?.

PW:S is a Discipline spell. Shadowpriests have always been able to use it in Shadowform.

What makes Shadowpriests (and Priests in general) interesting is the ability to harness the duality of light and shadow. Take away the ability to use the light, and Shadow turns into a discount Affliction Warlock -- which is what it is right now.

[Roujeaux]

I think the best course of action would be to have all specs share the same baseline utility within their class, but allow rotations to be spec specific. For instance, all Warlock specs would have access to Soul Link, Shadowfury, Curse of Exhaustion, Call Felhunter, but Curse of Agony would be restricted to Affliction, Hand of Gul'dan to Demonology, Conflagrate to Destruction, etc.

Figuring out which abilities need to be baseline to a class, and which need to be spec specific, is the key to the whole thing. I really hope Blizzard doesn't screw it all up or worse, ignore most player feedback as they are prone to.

[Biggles Worth]

Just theoretical as I probably won't play Shadowlands.

I am levelling a frost mage and I enjoy the feeling I am 'frost'. Personally I don't like the idea of getting fireball since I like this feeling of specialisation. I DO think classes can be a tad more complex, just because a) they are too simple (though not that simple as people seem to think) and b) it gets boring having the same spells all the time, I miss getting new spells in expansions. That said, I like the idea of shattering throw for warriors (I used to play/play a warrior a lot), it doesn't 'feel' like it should be a spec specific ability and it's cool and adds depth, complexity and possible counterplay (PvP perspective).

I don't like the whole covenant system as usual there has to be some grindy new feature to boost playtime, it's artifical complexity just like azerite traits.

I think each spec getting maybe 2 or 3 new talents, as well as maybe ONE or TWO spells made classwide will be fun, but I don't want spec homogenization, I like spec identity.

If they can give me
1)single minded fury
2) sword and board
I'll be moderately relieved.

[tangers58]

Its just an excuse to put less development time into specs by having more shared components. Don't expect much from Shadowlands with Activison still forcing cutbacks