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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    I really am happy we are getting Totems back as Shaman.

    However, Totems are designed for much more slow paced gameplay than what Retail has become. I am worried about how good totems will feel will be in say M+...

    In Classic I can happily put down 2-3 totems every single mob I fight because it's worth the investment, but in Retail, killing a mob will die so fast I can't spend 3 GCDs on totems... I wonder how they intend to solve this. My suggestion? Slow down Retail combat too. Why can't fighting quest mobs be an actual challenge in Retail too?
    They were removed to speed things up, as well as a few other things. Even if they are off the GCD the extra key presses are going to hurt them and leave them on the outside more often than not.
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  2. #162
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    Not hyped. Not because I think specs are good a idea, they are what killed class fantasy and the focus on them from Legion onward has destroyed balance and gameplay. Specs should be removed and things go back to being talents. You used to be a class, defined by everything that class was and could do and its lore, and then pick things you would be better at in the overall scheme of the class while sacrificing other strong points. "Specs" just make you pick a role and be one of the many other specs in that role with a Resource Builder and a Resource Spender with a Generic AoE Ability or a Fast Expensive Heal and a Slow Cheap Heal with a Generic AoE Heal, etc. Specs just made everyone the same with abilities named different.

    The reason I'm not hyped is because this is just marketing. They'll leave the class design exactly the way it is but they'll add token abilities to claim they did some work. For example they are not going to remove Holy Power and give all specs seals and judgements, exorcism, sacred shield, etc. They are going to add Shield of the Righteous to all specs with no additional effect and completely nerfed damage except for prot, so it'll just be there for them to point and say "see? that's what you wanted, we are working hard!" while effectively doing nothing.
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  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    for a mage, frost magic is arcane. mages do not use actual elemental magic, it's a copy formed by arcane magic.

    bending of frost and fire are arcane schools of magic.

    an archmage is an absolute master of every single school of arcane magic. even a specialist in specific arcane, frost, or fire does not surpass the archmage. it's khadgar vs. a pyromancer, right? the pyromancer is the top in the singular study of arcane manipulation of fire, but khadgar is an archmage and can destroy bridges with meteors.

    khadgar's combination of fire, frost, and arcane orbs to form that super bomb to blow up the dam in the wod intro is the perfect example.
    We’ll never get a super bomb that can destroy bridges, so I guess we just have to concede that “Archmage” was a silly title, then.

    Adding Fireball back to Frost Mages won’t fix this either, though.

    Question for curiosity’s sake: how does lore reconcile with a “pyromancer” being able to change spec to Frost or Arcane?
    Last edited by Anastacy; 2019-11-11 at 03:42 AM.
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  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Anastacy View Post
    We’ll never get a super bomb that can destroy bridges, so I guess we just have to concede that “Archmage” was a silly title, then.

    Adding Fireball back to Frost Mages won’t fix this either, though.

    Question for curiosity’s sake: how does lore reconcile with a “pyromancer” being able to change spec to Frost or Arcane?
    we do have that spell that can destroy bridges, it's meteor. we just cast a weaker version of it.

    lore-wise, most mages do not change spec. they simply aren't good enough, it takes years to master magic. we're the special blue haired anime main character that can master spells and magic faster than everyone else.

    i will say, that most mages do know a pinch of fire and ice spells, and arcane. but true mastery is what i'm talking about.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorthonion1 View Post
    Just theoretical as I probably won't play Shadowlands.

    I am levelling a frost mage and I enjoy the feeling I am 'frost'. Personally I don't like the idea of getting fireball since I like this feeling of specialisation. I DO think classes can be a tad more complex, just because a) they are too simple (though not that simple as people seem to think) and b) it gets boring having the same spells all the time, I miss getting new spells in expansions. That said, I like the idea of shattering throw for warriors (I used to play/play a warrior a lot), it doesn't 'feel' like it should be a spec specific ability and it's cool and adds depth, complexity and possible counterplay (PvP perspective).

    I don't like the whole covenant system as usual there has to be some grindy new feature to boost playtime, it's artifical complexity just like azerite traits.

    I think each spec getting maybe 2 or 3 new talents, as well as maybe ONE or TWO spells made classwide will be fun, but I don't want spec homogenization, I like spec identity.
    Yeah, it doesn't matter really. If they were to give the entire spellbook for each class, with the exception of talents, you would still keep all your spec abilities on your bars barring utility.

    But thats why they pruned to begin with. There was so many abilities and no way to determine which are better. At least with caster specs, you can focus on a specific school. But on melee that line is a bit more blurred.

  6. #166
    Do those people hyped up for this realize that its Brian Holinka doing the unprunning?

    Yeah, keep hoping, its going to suck.

  7. #167
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    Just give me back Classes how they were back in MoP. I enjoyed most classes/spec, and I actually felt like the class AND the spec.

  8. #168
    Well, theyre finding that any return to a previous state is better than what we have now, so hopefully these serial bunglers, dont bungle this, but expectations are super low.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercream View Post
    yeah I'm thrilled to be mushed together with all the other hunters with no real identity to either of the specs..Why don't people get it's a step backwards instead of forwards. Why even have specs at all..why even have classes..just give everybody the same thing
    Umm, the game got far more homogenized by splitting the specs up too much. The overlap is simply with other classes instead of within the specs of that particular class. Class identity is far superior.

  10. #170
    12 enjoyable classes >>>>>> 36 hollow, soulless "specs". I couldn't find a single spec I thoroughly enjoyed in Legion, let alone BfA. I'm hoping they can make it work because pre-Legion gameplay was great. Now it doesn't exist.

  11. #171
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    It'd be cool if they'd adapt class-spells to fit whatever spec you choose instead of the way it is now of them being unlearnt on swaps or completely pruned out of the game because of button bloat. Even if super situational to the point of being useless this is not Diablo nor the game people want to play. I never understood why people couldn't just leave it off their bars if they didn't see a use for it or another direction fx. why the shitty Arcane Explosion couldn't become a shitty blastwave to fit the fire-theme of a firemage and the slow-element from frostbolt become a daze effect from the impact of what'd turn into a frostfire-bolt. The more options the better.
    Imo them shoehorning an ideal or optimal rotation is bad overall though i recognize it's hard to avoid if they're to have any chance at balancing. If only they'd adapt with their game as it is and what players make it and came up with instead of always being busy with the next stuff in the pipeline thinking they know what people want. Their idea of regularly changing classes, balancing and testing everything has always been a joke when they're so slow to admit mistakes or listen to feedback, spending all their time on running numbers when they have the power to adjust everything on the fly and create some amazing load-outs and tool-kits for players to play around with. To me it's just always seemed as a very uninspired aspect and approach of such a spectacular game and genre.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-11-11 at 06:42 AM.
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  12. #172
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    As I said in recent topics, it’s too early to judge whether they understood their main mistake (degree of return to lore, and to class fantasy from it, is absolutely unclear, it can be only 3 with a half returned abilities without any slightest realization of need for this, just under players pressure, as I said - this won't work in such way), whether their system understanding has changed, or whether these are just regular “buzz words”, and also that presence of Holinka in team doesn't add faith in them. Actually, so far there is nothing more to add to what has been said, besides that, gentlemen “spec”-ers, your discontent has no force in framework of system design, since class priority is its functional necessity. That's all.

    Also SL thread about same stuff.

    NEXT>>
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-11-21 at 07:18 AM.
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    100% agree.
    I am not dramatizing the change but I WANT spec identity. I don't want fireball shooting frostmages or warriors with 23984234 abilities. Again... listening to the loud minorities is a very bad idea.
    Will play it anyways but prbly not enjoying those mixed spec stuff
    Ugh stop. Classic proved that you lot are the loud minority and dumbing down each class was a bad idea. Blizzard are starting to finally learn and will hopefully balance changes so both sides are happy.

  14. #174
    I was in favor of a prune and redesign. Sadly they just did the prune. Just stacking random filler back on bars does nothing for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Ugh stop. Classic proved that you lot are the loud minority and dumbing down each class was a bad idea. Blizzard are starting to finally learn and will hopefully balance changes so both sides are happy.
    Classic proved that a lot of children liked to borrow nostalgia.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    I’m not. I’ve always identified as a ret before a paladin and that’s how I like to keep it. Prot and Holy are dead specs to me, I don’t play them and I don’t want to. I hope they don’t bring back things like the hybrid tax or other archaic classic wow stuff.

    Going from 36 classes to 12 is a downgrade.
    You're my exact opposite then, I suppose.
    In my eyes you're a class before you're a SPECIALISATION, nobody are saying that Fireball should be part of a Frost Mage core abilities- but it's a core Mage ability. For Paladins Blessings, Auras and "utility" is core of what the Paladin fantasy is. If you spec into Retribution then you're a fighter, true, but you're still a Paladin that comes with the Paladin tools.
    I would claim that it's even more important for the hybrid classes to get their tools back- hybrids being Paladins, Druids, Shamans and Monks (maybe).
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  16. #176
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    We've already had this thread last week, but, yeah. Put me on the "not hyped" side I suppose. I liked defined specs and, regardless of gameplay, I like that each spec was its own unique class and theme rather than a mishmash of different elements and techniques. I would prefer they fix gameplay for specs that don't currently work or have gaps by introducing new abilities that are themed to the spec, rather than hamfisting in old abilities class-wide like giving frostbolt to fire mages or making my pirate use poisons.
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    100% agree.
    I am not dramatizing the change but I WANT spec identity. I don't want fireball shooting frostmages or warriors with 23984234 abilities. Again... listening to the loud minorities is a very bad idea.
    Will play it anyways but prbly not enjoying those mixed spec stuff
    You guys are seriously misunderstanding the intent and type of abilities that are returning, it's iconic abilities that might not be as "good" as what you're specialised into. If you're a Frost Specialised Mage then you're not going to cast Fireball unless you actually want to for some reason, maybe you're in a BG and a Rogue is trying to run away and get into stealth. What do you do? Cast a fireball with a dot effect to break his stealth? Or cast a frost bolt which doesn't stop him from stealthing?
    If you're a Ret Paladin and your group is wiping in a mythic + what do you do? Pop a cooldown and help heal your group or do you just die with them?
    If you're a Feral Druid and your raid is taking tons of damage, do you stop dps and use Tranquility or not?

    The return of most of these spells and abilities are going to be "non-combat" spells or utility abilities that for the most part were impactful for hybrid classes. For mages, warriors... I don't know that you lost many abilities that since has been replaced or made into talents? Yeah sure Frost is frost, Fire is fire and Arcane is arcane... but you can swap between specs with basically no drawbacks anyways. You're still a mage first, you just have to change speciality before you can cast other schools of magic.0+
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  18. #178
    I'm not sure what's with the "firebolt being useless for frostmages" example. If my frost mage gets it back, I'll be super happy to use a different magic school to burn players to keep them in combat while I do something else or stop rogues from going back to stealth, just like it used to be. Even if it's just a niche spell, I see it as another tool to make a difference.

    These changes would only create more gameplay possibilities, increase the impact of decisions in the outcome of a fight and make it easier to differenciate the good player from the bad one, which seems to be what so many people are worried about.

    In the end, specs won't disappear but they won't be premade for you and that involves making (potentially wrong) choices and having to get out of your confort zone. Reading comments on this thread, it is clear that people who are against these changes are mostly scared of that.
    Last edited by Loeko; 2019-11-11 at 08:17 AM.

  19. #179
    If they implement the “class” abilities into the specs and they aren’t just extra buttons it could be interesting.

    Otherwise I’d rather they keep it as spec specific.

  20. #180
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Going from 36 classes to 12 is a downgrade.
    Not from a balance perspective it isn't.

    I'd rather have 12 classes with better balance than 36 with worse balance.


    Not that that's how it will actually work, but we'll see.


    Prot and Holy are dead specs to me, I don’t play them and I don’t want to.
    I'm also a Ret Paladin who doesn't play Prot or Holy... Nothing about this is forcing you to play Prot or Holy, Ret was fucking amazing in WotLK and WotLK ret followed this design philosophy... All it means is you will have some crossover spells, which will, for us, likely just end up being some better selfhealing and another defensive cooldown (like possibly getting Divine Protection back, which we lost in legion).




    I hope they don’t bring back things like the hybrid tax or other archaic classic wow stuff.
    They won't... Hybrid tax is archaic, class>spec is not archaic, not even slightly, I don't even know how you could possibly misconstrue it as being archaic... What is archaic about a class having a basic toolkit that the spec builds on top of?

    Nothing, that's what... Calling this archaic screams of someone who didn't experience what it was like before, because you're acting like this will be some end of the world scenario when that couldn't be further from the truth... All this means is you're going to get ~5 more abilities with situational usefulness, you're not losing anything.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-11-11 at 08:28 AM.
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