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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Arakakao View Post
    Play a Pandaria warlock.
    Pandaria Warlock was the most busted dumb shit I’ve ever seen.

    I understand why players love it, but they should have never done it in the first place. MoP was when they went overboard and gave every single class the option to do just about every single thing in the game by using talents. Warlocks casting while moving was an abomination >.< you’re supposed to be the immobile ranged damage class.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    Return to class is basically Blizzrd admitting they get more resources and can't sustain spec identity. In other words: we are fucked.
    Ok, that's so utterly utterly BS that i can't even begin with to say how wrong you are. Because of that and my headache, i just want to put in one argument: Having more cross over talents does actually takes MORE work than having a set for every spec.

  3. #543
    Bloodsail Admiral clinophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arakakao View Post
    Play a Pandaria warlock.
    Oh man good ol' memories with my Afflock soul swapping the crap outa everything

  4. #544
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roar-Powah View Post
    I don't think Blizzard is going to return classes to how they use to be. I think Blizzard is going down the lazy route of giving classes a few spells back and call it a day, and this to me will put me off playing SL among other things.

    I think Blizzard would've been better going back to MoP classes and specs, at least they were fun to play.
    sign that. with my blood.

    - - - Updated - - -

    in the end i do not care that much if it was MoP classes or Wotlk or maybe even Cataclysm. Because nearly all of it was way better than what happened to around 80% of classes with around WoD/Legion and what we have today. They fucked up classes to make their life easier aka to easier maintain, balance and streamline them. what is another term for cost effective development. what means less investment. what means more $$$ for blizz.

    i take EVERY classes design (besides vanilla, because „slow“) EVERY day before that crap they have since the last few xpacs. its all just cheap shit.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Pandaria Warlock was the most busted dumb shit I’ve ever seen.

    I understand why players love it, but they should have never done it in the first place. MoP was when they went overboard and gave every single class the option to do just about every single thing in the game by using talents. Warlocks casting while moving was an abomination >.< you’re supposed to be the immobile ranged damage class.
    No one cares about "what you're supposed to be". Classes were fun in MoP and they were very distinct in MoP. That's the purpose of classes. They should provide fun and different vehicles through which you can experience the game. So I don't really understand what's the issue here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    i take EVERY classes design (besides vanilla, because „slow“) EVERY day before that crap they have since the last few xpacs. its all just cheap shit.
    Come to think of it, cheap really is the fitting word here. It feels like they've outsourced class development to a different team that has no idea what they're doing.

  6. #546
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    No one cares about "what you're supposed to be". Classes were fun in MoP and they were very distinct in MoP. That's the purpose of classes. They should provide fun and different vehicles through which you can experience the game. So I don't really understand what's the issue here.


    Come to think of it, cheap really is the fitting word here. It feels like they've outsourced class development to a different team that has no idea what they're doing.
    oh, i think they know EXACTLY what they are doing. its just YOUR goals, YOUR perspective, is NOT THEIRS.

    they not outsourced it (not yet ^^ i assume). they just invest lowest possible effort / team size / etc. THEY do what they do to save money by decreasing effort needed for wow. streamline classes (every class use builder/spender pattern), easy maintenance (few spells are easier to maintain in a complex system than many spells), balancing by flat knob turning.

    the result is less investment and more money for them. the result for you are worse classes. but as long as ppl keep paying them anyway (and in wow it looks like A LOT do) they save money by decreasing effort/investment. ofc i have no numberrs or data to proof, but its obvious that the wow community as a customer base is VERY hard proofed and accept A LOT before quitting forrever.

    so its simple milking the cow. they test how far they can go, before they loose money by loosing subs vs save effort and spending resources on more lucrative projects. its simple maths.

    and obviously the maths told them „ok, more ppl hated pruned (cheaper for us) classes than we get profit out of it. lets turn the slider a bit back in SL to keep paying ppl vs a bit more investment again.“

    this is how it goes in companies like blizz. i feel save to assume, because i worked in that business for 15+ years. its just strategics and maths/data.

    ppl are just often confused these days because they think a happy customer is the main goal. the times are over when „long term paying loyal customers“ was > all. today quarter numbers are > all. if spending less effort but loosing a few subs makes better quarter numbers, ceo will go for that.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2019-12-01 at 06:19 PM.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    Ok, that's so utterly utterly BS that i can't even begin with to say how wrong you are. Because of that and my headache, i just want to put in one argument: Having more cross over talents does actually takes MORE work than having a set for every spec.
    It doesn't take more work. It might make balancing more difficult but it is incomparably smaller task.
    M-mom? M-m-mommy, p-please d-d-d-don't kill me. I-I rea-lly am not j-just a lump of cells. Pleasssse Mommy.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    No one cares about "what you're supposed to be". Classes were fun in MoP and they were very distinct in MoP. That's the purpose of classes. They should provide fun and different vehicles through which you can experience the game. So I don't really understand what's the issue here.
    It's a class identity issue. If everybody can do every thing then there's either never a reason to bring your class, or there's never a reason to bring anything other than your class depending on what actual unique things you can provide. When was there a reason why you would want any of the other caster classes over warlock? Multi dot? Affliction. Cleave/single target burst? Destro. And then whatever Demo actually did. Not only that but they had great movement options so a mage having blink wasn't an actual benefit. Warlocks have always generally been the more tanky caster class so they were in a better spot defensively as well. And then to top it all off, they also had the warlock gates.

    You need to give classes something that they suck at doing so that you have a reason to not just stack all of one class aside from numerical values.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It's a class identity issue. If everybody can do every thing then there's either never a reason to bring your class, or there's never a reason to bring anything other than your class depending on what actual unique things you can provide. When was there a reason why you would want any of the other caster classes over warlock? Multi dot? Affliction. Cleave/single target burst? Destro. And then whatever Demo actually did. Not only that but they had great movement options so a mage having blink wasn't an actual benefit. Warlocks have always generally been the more tanky caster class so they were in a better spot defensively as well. And then to top it all off, they also had the warlock gates.
    Yet people still successfully played mages. Funny, huh?

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorthonion1 View Post
    Just theoretical as I probably won't play Shadowlands.

    I am levelling a frost mage and I enjoy the feeling I am 'frost'. Personally I don't like the idea of getting fireball since I like this feeling of specialisation. I DO think classes can be a tad more complex, just because a) they are too simple (though not that simple as people seem to think) and b) it gets boring having the same spells all the time, I miss getting new spells in expansions. That said, I like the idea of shattering throw for warriors (I used to play/play a warrior a lot), it doesn't 'feel' like it should be a spec specific ability and it's cool and adds depth, complexity and possible counterplay (PvP perspective).

    I don't like the whole covenant system as usual there has to be some grindy new feature to boost playtime, it's artifical complexity just like azerite traits.

    I think each spec getting maybe 2 or 3 new talents, as well as maybe ONE or TWO spells made classwide will be fun, but I don't want spec homogenization, I like spec identity.

    You are a Cata baby aren’t you? If so then get gone.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    It doesn't take more work. It might make balancing more difficult but it is incomparably smaller task.
    Not really: going back from having 36 established class to something different always takes dev-time. Also saying just because class matters more, this takes less dev time is mildy say stupid, harshly said insane. Because if this really would take so much dev time, then why did they do it in the first place. Nah, either way it still takes a lot of people for it in both cases. Just because a few spells now are shared will not make it far different. Especially since i don't think that blizzard will either remove any spell from any spec at all.

    So in the end: "return to class" will not save blizzard any ressources at all. Because in the end as far as i see it is that blizzard will simply add some spells to classes, remove nothing and make it simply a bit better. Specs will stay, spec specific spells as we have it now will probably stay too; except for a few classes that might or might not get an overwork (i look at you, enhancement shaman, holy paladin and shadow priest). But for the rest i doubt that many things will change. Just that class identity will finally return.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelyron View Post
    The old talent trees didn't have a single meaningful choice in them. Not one. "Do i want .1% more crit or .1% more haste, of which i have to chose one because i can't advance this talent tree without taking stupid filler talents?" is not a meaningful choice. "Do i want my main attack to lose it's physical damage component, but gain 20 yard increased range, or do i want an additional summoned pet, or do i want my regular pet to trigger more effects on the target?" is a meaningful choice.
    Anyone that still believes that the old talent trees genuinely offered (meaningful) choice at this stage isn't going to be convinced otherwise. They believe what they want to believe.

    It's the same argument as replacing some class abilities, what's the point in having <spell x> if you never press it lol (disclaimer: this doesn't apply to all removed abilities I think some do genuinely add 'flavour' but this doesn't apply to the vast majority of removed spells that just set idle or weren't even placed on action bars).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    So in the end: "return to class" will not save blizzard any ressources at all. Because in the end as far as i see it is that blizzard will simply add some spells to classes, remove nothing and make it simply a bit better. Specs will stay, spec specific spells as we have it now will probably stay too; except for a few classes that might or might not get an overwork (i look at you, enhancement shaman, holy paladin and shadow priest). But for the rest i doubt that many things will change. Just that class identity will finally return.
    In all honestly I can't make out what this means.

    in order to move away from spec identity towards class identity this will probably mean some homogenisation of the specs (abilities being shared). The only way to reinforce class identity is to lessen, or remove, what makes specs different. Doing this will make class design easier for devs and thus will take less resources.

    That said, I doubt this was a cynical decision taken to just 'save money'. I reckon Blizz heard that people found current class design was boring, and they have concluded that the reason for boring gameplay is that they've got so many classes (if we count specs as a class) we simply don't have the time to devote to make everyone engaging, unique, and fun. This is a way for them to get back a more focused look at gameplay and enjoyability.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Pandaria Warlock was the most busted dumb shit I’ve ever seen.

    I understand why players love it, but they should have never done it in the first place. MoP was when they went overboard and gave every single class the option to do just about every single thing in the game by using talents. Warlocks casting while moving was an abomination >.< you’re supposed to be the immobile ranged damage class.
    It would've been nice if Blizzard had ever gotten the turret part right ever since they stripped Warlocks of their mobility. But instead Blizzard dithered for two expansions and at no point between MoP and BFA did Warlocks see every spec function properly. Destro and Demo languished for years under asinine design choices, not the least of which being the infamous "We don't want you to play Demonology right now" quip from Ion. And to make matters worse after unfucking Destro and Demo for BFA they thrust upon Affliction this awful pooling until cooldowns playstyle.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    the infamous "We don't want you to play Demonology right now" quip from Ion.
    IMO, that is the most worst thing WoW devs have ever said. It's unforgivable.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfire989 View Post
    You are a Cata baby aren’t you? If so then get gone.
    Meh - I agree with the poster and I've been playing since the vanilla beta.

    Specs didn't used to exist so generic abilities were fine. Once they did? They felt like concrete real things. Some abilities (shaman totems for example) felt like they should never be removed from the class as they're so iconic. But having a crappy fireball on your bar as a frost mage? Yes I guess it's useful when you're locked down but thematically? Nope. Nope. Nope.

    And honestly? Bringing back abilities is... okay. But mainly bringing back vanilla abilities doesn't excite me. it just shouts they're catering to classic fans.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    Not really: going back from having 36 established class to something different always takes dev-time. Also saying just because class matters more, this takes less dev time is mildy say stupid, harshly said insane. Because if this really would take so much dev time, then why did they do it in the first place. Nah, either way it still takes a lot of people for it in both cases. Just because a few spells now are shared will not make it far different. Especially since i don't think that blizzard will either remove any spell from any spec at all.

    So in the end: "return to class" will not save blizzard any ressources at all. Because in the end as far as i see it is that blizzard will simply add some spells to classes, remove nothing and make it simply a bit better. Specs will stay, spec specific spells as we have it now will probably stay too; except for a few classes that might or might not get an overwork (i look at you, enhancement shaman, holy paladin and shadow priest). But for the rest i doubt that many things will change. Just that class identity will finally return.
    To boost sales and give every class fancy stuff. They couldn't support the staff after lay offs.

    Overlap will sabe them time and resources.
    M-mom? M-m-mommy, p-please d-d-d-don't kill me. I-I rea-lly am not j-just a lump of cells. Pleasssse Mommy.

  17. #557
    I'm not entirely convinced that playing a FROST mage with all frost spells, or a DEMONOLOGY warlock that summons a whole bunch of demons to do the fighting for her, or a MARKSMANSHIP hunter that lands an arrow in one of your vital points with absurdly pinpoint accuracy, isn't "playing class."

    Then again, I can't count the number of times I was insulted, told that my ever having been born in REAL LIFE (how eff'ed up is THAT?) was the biggest insult in WoW's history, kicked and kicked and kicked and kicked from all kinds of group content before even the second trash pull, for no reason at all, other than playing "this garbage spec" instead of "that 1337 spec" or having even a single utility point placed here instead of there... I sitll get nauseous thinking about that.

    Will adding certain 'base' abilities back into each class, that all specs of that class can use, solve the whole conundrum? I'm not convinced. But it would be nice if it helped.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    i love that they do something that people have been calling for, and the playerbase just moves the goalposts and calls them shit for it. good work.
    It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of thing...people were all like "Tired of fighting all of these super powers, I want to see a return to the faction war. Faction war is what Warcraft was all about!" then we return to the faction war "Boooo...faction wars sucks"

    Can never please everyone, and we live in a age where people will complain about anything.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

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