M+ in shadowlands?

[Redroniksre]

I am sure PvPers and raiders feel the same about M+. I don't get why you have to be special. Everyone has to venture into other modes to get some of their best gear.

It is one thing if it is a specific piece you want, but for one activity to have a much higher ilvl then the other two is the main problem. A high level M+ needs to reward the same as a Mythic raid. As well as high end PvP.

[swatsonqt]

I am sure PvPers and raiders feel the same about M+. I don't get why you have to be special. Everyone has to venture into other modes to get some of their best gear.

Because the challenge at m+ is by design to beat the timer on an infinity progressing system. And if it should stay fair you have to give every participant the same gear to have a fair comparison.

Otherwise everyone who takes place in a mythic raid is by definition better than you even if you invest a lot more time to do good keys. Doesn't feel great hugh?
Limiting your powerlevel from 445 to 440 max is a huge deal when you wanne go for real high keys. What should blizzard say in that case?
"Sorry sucks to be you...maybe just find a mythic guild that would help?"

Not possibly because blizzard wants us to participate in group activities. So what would be the message? Drop your m+ friends to find a raiding community because otherwise you can't get the ilvl to play with the big boys?

Conclusion: M+ Player doesnt want to be special they just want the same chances at that content.

So as long as m+ stays the way it is you have to provide everyone with the same option to

[Kaver]

If they remove TF, then they need to to do something about the ilvl you get from M+
Because I really don't want to step into scheduled raiding to stay relevant. I know certain trinkets and expansion features like Azerite armor/essences are quite a must have, but I can get those with pugs.

I’m all for M+ giving good gear but they have to cap the amount somehow and mythic grade gear should only come from keys of equal difficulty. The fact that you can get mythic grade gear in your weekly chest by completing only a +10 key is a joke. It is waaaay too easy.

[TorikSAn]

I’m all for M+ giving good gear but they have to cap the amount somehow and mythic grade gear should only come from keys of equal difficulty. The fact that you can get mythic grade gear in your weekly chest by completing only a +10 key is a joke. It is waaaay too easy.

I'm agree that giving Mythic level gear from unlimited end of M+ chest would be OP. But possible weekly chest ilvl should be the same (not 5 less).
I'm not sure but some thoughts about how they may rework weekly chest:
1) They said it's going to be less random with multiple items choice (so you don't have to take 5 weeks of different boots in a row)
2) They said it's going to activate not only from M+, but from different activity (i think this means if you finished Heroic Raid => you will get weekly chest for it too, even if doing zero M+ dungeons)
3) Just my assumption. If they decide to give you Myth iLvL from +10 key in weekly chests, this will mean you will get Myth iLvL from clearing Heoirc Raid (not from the raid, but from Weekly chest).

[Twdft]

The whole gearprogression part of mythic+ is gone in BfA 8.3, the weekly chest alone is just a lottery without any targetable gearslots and with zero protection to repeated loot for the same gearslot.

Farming mythic+ for gear progression is pointless now too once you get to ilvl ~430 which is pretty fast anyway. Running more than 2 M+ per character (amount of bonus rolls you get per week) is a waste of time even with titanforging so I wonder why you did it.

I'd guess you have fun running dungeons with your friends. And if that's the case 8.3 makes no difference.

[Ange]

Farming mythic+ for gear progression is pointless now too once you get to ilvl ~430 which is pretty fast anyway. Running more than 2 M+ per character (amount of bonus rolls you get per week) is a waste of time even with titanforging so I wonder why you did it.

I'd guess you have fun running dungeons with your friends. And if that's the case 8.3 makes no difference.

Right now its a working gear progression:

[Trend]

It is one thing if it is a specific piece you want, but for one activity to have a much higher ilvl then the other two is the main problem. A high level M+ needs to reward the same as a Mythic raid. As well as high end PvP.

I agree with Ion. I do both key pushing and mythic raiding and the latter is far more demanding as you can't just get your 4 friends and do it whenever you want. Mythic raiding should give the best gear and I am glad it will continue to do so. I'll keep doing keys either way.

[ID811717]

Gearing with mythic+ is very time intensive with the current low TF proc and repeatable content model. We are talking about 100-120 DAYS played PER CHARACTER for anything between heroic and mythic raiding powerlevels.

If you care about gearing up, then on the 2nd evening of a new base ilvl for M+, you will generally have average 2-4 ilvls above what HC drops, just by spamming M+ in your free time. That's been true for me and most of my friends many seasons in a row now. Some people are unlucky with drops, and some specs cannot equip a lot of the gear in their bags. But other than that, it's a good guideline.

But may be the caveat here is that most people struggle to farm (preferably at least +13) keys right after the increase of M+ difficulty.

[Ange]

If you care about gearing up, then on the 2nd evening of a new base ilvl for M+, you will generally have average 2-4 ilvls above what HC drops, just by spamming M+ in your free time.

Did you even check my armory or the screenshot?

[Trend]

Gearing with mythic+ is very time intensive with the current low TF proc and repeatable content model. We are talking about 100-120 DAYS played PER CHARACTER for anything between heroic and mythic raiding powerlevels. This is a mature discussion and nobody have to come with "same ilvl" bullshit, nobody cares for streamer talk in a world of simcraft and logs.

This is just utter rubbish. Complete nonsense. I raid mythic and more than half my gear is from mythic+ rather than raids. I select my gear based on sims, not ilvl.

Had you said it's very difficult to get 8/8 mythic raider gear by doing mythic+ alone I would have agreed and said that's the way it should be. But you said "anything between heroic and mythic raiding powerlevels" takes "100-120 days played", and that's just dumb.

[ID811717]

Did you even check my armory or the screenshot?

What am I supposed to find? An armory neither proves nor disproves anything in this argument. I have finished every season since 7.2.5 at ~1000 raider.io score above you on average, and I'm no stranger to having a top geared character every tier that does not raid mythic. The "caveat" remark was not a dig at you. I did not bother to check what keys you do in the first week of a new season. I'm just assuming you're arguing on behalf of the masses.

[corruptdevil]

I'm pretty certain OP mixed up Torghast and M+. Torghast is scaleable content to the number of players in the group.

[Redroniksre]

I agree with Ion. I do both key pushing and mythic raiding and the latter is far more demanding as you can't just get your 4 friends and do it whenever you want. Mythic raiding should give the best gear and I am glad it will continue to do so. I'll keep doing keys either way.

Nobody will do M+ seriously if Mythic raiding is better. There should be a weekly lockout to keep the acquisition at a similar rate but the gear should be same ilvl. It was sold as an equal gearing path, and it should stay that way.

[dcc626]

If they remove TF, then they need to to do something about the ilvl you get from M+
Because I really don't want to step into scheduled raiding to stay relevant. I know certain trinkets and expansion features like Azerite armor/essences are quite a must have, but I can get those with pugs.

m+ has no lockouts. you can run them infinitely. They arent going to give equal ilvl gear from something that you can grind endlessly.

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Nobody will do M+ seriously if Mythic raiding is better. There should be a weekly lockout to keep the acquisition at a similar rate but the gear should be same ilvl. It was sold as an equal gearing path, and it should stay that way.

they would have to not only give each dungeon a lockout, they would have to make loot drops random as well, because you dont always get loot when you kill a raid boss.

so if you would like to have a cap on the number of dungeons you can do and a random roll as to whether you get loot or not from the end chest, im sure they would be happy to increase the loot drops.

oh yeah, they would have to make the minimum for weekly completion harder as well because a 10 is not difficult. so maybe 15+. And then you would be "forced" to do every dungeon every week for chances at loot.

im sure nobody would have a problem with any of this.

[Vynx]

oh yeah, they would have to make the minimum for weekly completion harder as well because a 10 is not difficult. so maybe 15+.

A +15 is harder than your average mythic boss, considering that each week you have different affixes with emisaries changing places as well.

[Trend]

Nobody will do M+ seriously if Mythic raiding is better. There should be a weekly lockout to keep the acquisition at a similar rate but the gear should be same ilvl. It was sold as an equal gearing path, and it should stay that way.

Well you're just wrong with basically everything you say.

#1. Mythic raiding is better for gear and has been since the keystone system was implemented at the beginning of Legion. And yet, what is this? People are doing a lot of keys? What? Why? Of course I'm being silly because this is not confusing at all. Your theory is demonstrably false. People push keys because it's fun and easy to get 5 people together to do infinitely repeatable content.

#2. You're objectively wrong in regards with what was promised. It was ALWAYS presented as an alternative gearing path and NEVER as an equal gearing path.

#3. Then you drop in nonsense about a weekly lockout for mythic+? That is horribly dumb and goes to show you don't really understand the system and how it fits into the bigger context whatsoever.

#4. You keep restating your opinion as fact and fail to convince. You do not deal with any of the reasons offered why ilvl should not be the same and just keep repeating that is should, as if stating your opinion enough times makes it a fact.

Fortunately, they have been clear about why these two activities do not reward equal gear and there is no chance there will be a near term change in this regard.

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A +15 is harder than your average mythic boss, considering that each week you have different affixes with emisaries changing places as well.

I don't think this is even close to true. 15's can be easily PUGed with no voice comms. This tier there are maybe 3 of the 8 raid bosses fitting that bill. The bosses Ashvane forward are significantly harder than 15's with more difficult affixes.

[Vynx]

I don't think this is even close to true. 15's can be easily PUGed with no voice comms. This tier there are maybe 3 of the 8 raid bosses fitting that bill. The bosses Ashvane forward are significantly harder than 15's with more difficult affixes.

You're overlooking the fact that mythic raiding is done over 90% by guilds, and you have the same people for each fight. Once the raid is on farm, gear just starts to flood. But, in M+ you have different people each time, because pugs duh. Should I add also how much fucking time is lost when looking for people?

[Trend]

You're overlooking the fact that mythic raiding is done over 90% by guilds, and you have the same people for each fight. Once the raid is on farm, gear just starts to flood. But, in M+ you have different people each time, because pugs duh. Should I add also how much fucking time is lost when looking for people?

Dumb argument bro. Because, duh, you're not required to PUG keys any more than you're required to PUG mythic raids. Also, I said it's easier to PUG a 15 with no voice comms than it is to do mythic bosses 4-8. Thus, your entire response would be irrelevant even it if was thought out.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that when you said 15's are harder than the average mythic raid boss, you've neither timed a 15 nor have you killed any current tier mythic raid bosses but you just wanted to feel a part of the conversation.

[Marrilaife]

But, in M+ you have different people each time, because pugs duh.

What if you aren't doing M+ with pugs but with friends / guild / community?

Mind blowing.

Not sure what you heard that made you think the level won't matter. I definitely did not hear anything like that and I think I read and/or heard all of Ion's comments that were made public.

FYI: PUG communities (which is what you're talking about) have been toxic in WoW since 2004. The problem isn't mythic+, the problem is that you're subjecting yourself to PUGs instead of making friends.

He just wants top rewards for minuscule effort. Basically like 90% of wow community that love titanforging and whatnot. Oh hey I facerolled the easiest version of the content, give me the same loot as doing m+15 or mythic raids. I'm paying 15$ a month too after all.

If you make key level irrelevant, 90%+ of the community will just run lowest possible difficulty. Nowadays majority runs +10 and only small handful of hardcores "push keys" way above that, people just choose the path of least resistance for the most loot.

But yeah, basically anyone who says it's all fault of "toxic pugs" and r.io immediately rings alarm bells "special snowflake warning". People who think r.io is "elitist" but won't invite other "low score" people into their key, even won't put effort into upgrading their own key instead want a ready made group with key, tank and healer they can plug themselves into and get a smooth ride to free loot. If someone wants a group to service them, go buy a boost.

[Ange]

I never understood the "toxic pug" thing, maybe its an NA meme and as EU player I just dont get it.

I played the vanilla beta with 1/3 of its population beeing from korea, because they had massive issues with their own servers and even with huge language issues I had lots of fun and played hundred of hours with people I could only barely chat with.

Since crossrealm is a thing and with EU's multi language players it was mostly a postive experience for me. I do my weekly m+ key with a spanish group, clear my HC pug raid with a french guild and cap my chars in pvp with russian players.

At least 3/4 of my playtime involves playing with random players - from different servers, countrys and with different native languages and toxic behaviour is very rare.

And I play a lot, by a lot I mean: