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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I don't think this is even close to true. 15's can be easily PUGed with no voice comms. This tier there are maybe 3 of the 8 raid bosses fitting that bill. The bosses Ashvane forward are significantly harder than 15's with more difficult affixes.
    You're overlooking the fact that mythic raiding is done over 90% by guilds, and you have the same people for each fight. Once the raid is on farm, gear just starts to flood. But, in M+ you have different people each time, because pugs duh. Should I add also how much fucking time is lost when looking for people?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynx View Post
    You're overlooking the fact that mythic raiding is done over 90% by guilds, and you have the same people for each fight. Once the raid is on farm, gear just starts to flood. But, in M+ you have different people each time, because pugs duh. Should I add also how much fucking time is lost when looking for people?
    Dumb argument bro. Because, duh, you're not required to PUG keys any more than you're required to PUG mythic raids. Also, I said it's easier to PUG a 15 with no voice comms than it is to do mythic bosses 4-8. Thus, your entire response would be irrelevant even it if was thought out.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that when you said 15's are harder than the average mythic raid boss, you've neither timed a 15 nor have you killed any current tier mythic raid bosses but you just wanted to feel a part of the conversation.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynx View Post
    But, in M+ you have different people each time, because pugs duh.
    What if you aren't doing M+ with pugs but with friends / guild / community?

    Mind blowing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Not sure what you heard that made you think the level won't matter. I definitely did not hear anything like that and I think I read and/or heard all of Ion's comments that were made public.

    FYI: PUG communities (which is what you're talking about) have been toxic in WoW since 2004. The problem isn't mythic+, the problem is that you're subjecting yourself to PUGs instead of making friends.
    He just wants top rewards for minuscule effort. Basically like 90% of wow community that love titanforging and whatnot. Oh hey I facerolled the easiest version of the content, give me the same loot as doing m+15 or mythic raids. I'm paying 15$ a month too after all.

    If you make key level irrelevant, 90%+ of the community will just run lowest possible difficulty. Nowadays majority runs +10 and only small handful of hardcores "push keys" way above that, people just choose the path of least resistance for the most loot.

    But yeah, basically anyone who says it's all fault of "toxic pugs" and r.io immediately rings alarm bells "special snowflake warning". People who think r.io is "elitist" but won't invite other "low score" people into their key, even won't put effort into upgrading their own key instead want a ready made group with key, tank and healer they can plug themselves into and get a smooth ride to free loot. If someone wants a group to service them, go buy a boost.

  4. #44
    I never understood the "toxic pug" thing, maybe its an NA meme and as EU player I just dont get it.

    I played the vanilla beta with 1/3 of its population beeing from korea, because they had massive issues with their own servers and even with huge language issues I had lots of fun and played hundred of hours with people I could only barely chat with.

    Since crossrealm is a thing and with EU's multi language players it was mostly a postive experience for me. I do my weekly m+ key with a spanish group, clear my HC pug raid with a french guild and cap my chars in pvp with russian players.

    At least 3/4 of my playtime involves playing with random players - from different servers, countrys and with different native languages and toxic behaviour is very rare.

    And I play a lot, by a lot I mean:

    hidden information WoWArmory | Raider.IO | WoWProg | logs Logs1 | Logs2 | Logs3

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Since crossrealm is a thing and with EU's multi language players it was mostly a postive experience for me. I do my weekly m+ key with a spanish group, clear my HC pug raid with a french guild and cap my chars in pvp with russian players.

    At least 3/4 of my playtime involves playing with random players - from different servers, countrys and with different native languages and toxic behaviour is very rare.
    I always think something like that when I read NA players about having problems playing with BR.

    Language barrier in EU is real, most Russians don't understand a word of English, I once was in a M+ where a Greek guy explained to his friend what's going on, in a run with 4 Portuguese who where talking the whole fucking time didn't even sound like they're taking a breath (ingame voice chat is surprisingly good btw).

    It doesn't matter, we get along for half an hour, last toxic run I was in was at least half a year ago.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynx View Post
    A +15 is harder than your average mythic boss, considering that each week you have different affixes with emisaries changing places as well.
    Errr, maybe if you're talking about joke bosses like Champion or Taloc, but anything harder than Sivara is more difficult than a +15 if you ask me. I've pugged +15s. I'd never dream of pugging Ashvane and up, let alone a boss like Mekka or Zul.

  7. #47
    Blizzard had a great opportunity with azerite armor to make gear still powerful but dedicated to content you play. Imagine:
    1. You have traits that do f.e some boost to stats but additionally give like a proc or smth ONLY in Eternal Palace (they drop off raid bosses ofc),
    2. You have armor that also gives boost to stats but give a different proc (or even on use ability like vanish or shroud if what ppl say makes rogues madatory, or emulates shadowmeld or whatever is needed to balance out m+) that works ONLY in keystone dungeon,
    3. You can also have armor from wqs or pvp that follow that pattern (give you a boost/proc/ability/whatever) ONLY in outdoor content.
    4. You can also take mechagon trinket idea and have those gems/punchacards do different things in different content, hell you can even get proffesions craft those things (gems from jc, punchards/cogwheels from eng, etc) or make the same principle like with armor: trinkets give a simple stat (main or secondary) stat boost (can be static, procc, activated) and additional effect active only in specific content trinked drops from

    I might be wrong but imo problem is about azerite and trinkets - rest of the gear is just whats better ilvl/has a socket/has better stats.
    The tech is there - we have items (buffs) giving a boost only outdoors in Znadalar/Kul'tiras/Mechagon/Nazjatar, no problem doing same in instances - you even have an aura when in keystone dungeon, we had some auras (buffs) in the past in some raids (ICC comes to mind) -

    This way really for me a raider it doesnt really matter what and how much gear drops off m+ and same me as a keystone pusher (or pvper or casually doing wqs as my content, or a crafter even) doesnt matter whats going on in raids or other content (you also dont have to bother implications of f.e. [which happened in the past] pvp trinkets being insane for raiding or other way around - we had few nerfs in pvp to dungeon [bandages from KR] or raid [tank trinket from oppulence] trinkets this expansion and i think every expansion previously, heck even arcanocrystal nonsence in Legion could be avoided this way - trinket could be even more insane but work only in outdoor content while still giving you ilvl and some power boost in other content)
    Last edited by Toore; 2019-11-19 at 09:48 AM.

  8. #48
    Funny thing is, due to R.io it is easier to PUG higher keys due to the fact that all players know their shit. The real toxic PUG can be found between +4 and +9 with people who don't know or don't care for the affixes or mechanics.

    On the topic of M+ loot and ilvl I'm divided, on the one hand I thing M+ loot is too good and too easily available so that it hurts any raiding difficulty below Mythic. On the other hand I'm very well aware that my raid would struggle more without the weekly M+ chest infusion of gear and Azerith Armor.

    In the end people will alway flock to that activity that gives the best gear for the least effort. But I see that there might be a small percentage of hardcore M+ pusher that are in disadvantage due to having no access to mythic raid loot. But I think with any solution there will be some people in disadvantage at the highest and lowest level and honestly I think the game can survive this

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