[Discussion] Mage class - What would we like to see happen to the class in Shadowland

[Niwes]

That should not stop us from sharing ideas or dreams! As I've stated in the thread, its just to get the ball rolling to spitball some ideas and see what ideas we managed to gather. We all know that a new World of Warcraft on a new engine is about time (lets be honest) but we should set the bar high and hope for the best!

nonetheless i am sure you will end up disappointed. they will not change much imo. you will get some „tools“ back. thats it. imo.

[nickseng]

Suspect it is why Brain Freeze isn't a 2 charged based system with 20 second charge reset. Because then we could build to one GS, RoP, GS, BF/Flurry, 5 FB's, BF/Flurry.

Because you wouldn't fit it all in one ROP.
It's more of a Fire/Arcane thing than Frost.

[Marrilaife]

I'd love cauterize / greater invis / double ice block to be again a choice instead of tied to your spec.

Also I would wish for arcane to get some love, it hasn't had much since wod and prismatic crystal and a lot of people disliked it so it needs something else.

[zeNNoN]

One thing that led to this state of Mages and one thing that would put things back to track is removal or Rune of Power and it's countertop Incanter's flow.

[Aphrel]

Overall mageclass:
Give back alter time as a defensive baseline skill for all specs (similar to how it functioned in WoD, snapshotting position and health), Its byfar the most fun and interactive ability weve ever had.

Give us some other similar abilities to iceblock for arc and fire spec.
Etc fire could turn you into an unattackable firetornado or something. Arcane would turn you into an unattackable orb similar to shadowpriests void orb.

Rune of power still feels awful... AND its too powerful not to use for at least two of our specs...

Also, give mages a damn tank spec already. Let us transform into an arcane anomaly or soemthing, a big diablo 3 archon-tank.

Fire:
Make blaster master baseline mage ability.
Make lucid dream a baseline mage ability.
Make Hyper threads work at lvl 60.
honestly, i do not want to go back to playing firemage without these... sigh, i fucking hate new expansions. Specs goes from great to shit everytime. And no fucking haste..

Alright serious mode: Make meteor do aoe dmg (not some shared dmg shit), in its current iteration its a LOSS to hit more than one target due to lower ignite value.. and that really sucks.
Give fire mages a talent in some row that removes our ignite dmg but instead increases our crit dmg. (at a slight total loss ofc but would still be preferable for add fights and short burst window mechanics). Currently fire mages has it really rough on focus swapping to adds since so large part of our dmg is in the ignite. Even a reduction from 10sec to 3sec would help wonders for such encounters. Or maybe a mechancis that lets overkilled ignites "jump" to nearby targets... Any talent that helps in these situations!

Frost:
Make icelance proc the ice shard count towards Glacial spike.
Make the cap on ice shards stacks go up to 10 so we get some choice in when to blow our load.
Make Glacial spike not be affected by flurry (and buff it to compensate obviously). This will open up flurry as a more active part of our dps rotation rather than the locked-in usage it sees now.

Arcane:
Pressing barrage and seing it hit multiple enemies feels good, but losing your stacks feels bad, ther needs to be a way to use barrage without losing your stacks imo. It sees so little useage now and thats sad.
Make arcane orb baseline, it sucks that we never pick this talent because the others are so strong.

[zeNNoN]

Overall mageclass:

Fire:
Make blaster master baseline mage ability.
Make lucid dream a baseline mage ability.
Make Hyper threads work at lvl 60.
honestly, i do not want to go back to playing firemage without these... sigh, i fucking hate new expansions. Specs goes from great to shit everytime. And no fucking haste..

Yes, this would solve lots of issues with fire mage playability. But instead leaving it in this state, would be nice to make it as a hybrid "memory of lucid dreams" ability that combines all of above to make it a constant dance of pyro and fireblast during combustion window. So we don't end up with bloat of spells that needs to be pressed during combustin. The whole thing where you have to cast 3-4 items just to start your burst is slowing down the class gameplay.

And of course, removal of ROP.

[OBM]

So which specialization will be the dominate one in Shadowlands? Legion is was Frost mage, BFA was Fire mage, Shadowlands the time of Arcane mage?

[Kumorii]

Overall mageclass:
Give back alter time as a defensive baseline skill for all specs (similar to how it functioned in WoD, snapshotting position and health), Its byfar the most fun and interactive ability weve ever had.

Give us some other similar abilities to iceblock for arc and fire spec.
Etc fire could turn you into an unattackable firetornado or something. Arcane would turn you into an unattackable orb similar to shadowpriests void orb.

Rune of power still feels awful... AND its too powerful not to use for at least two of our specs...

Also, give mages a damn tank spec already. Let us transform into an arcane anomaly or soemthing, a big diablo 3 archon-tank.

Fire:
Make blaster master baseline mage ability.
Make lucid dream a baseline mage ability.
Make Hyper threads work at lvl 60.
honestly, i do not want to go back to playing firemage without these... sigh, i fucking hate new expansions. Specs goes from great to shit everytime. And no fucking haste..

Alright serious mode: Make meteor do aoe dmg (not some shared dmg shit), in its current iteration its a LOSS to hit more than one target due to lower ignite value.. and that really sucks.
Give fire mages a talent in some row that removes our ignite dmg but instead increases our crit dmg. (at a slight total loss ofc but would still be preferable for add fights and short burst window mechanics). Currently fire mages has it really rough on focus swapping to adds since so large part of our dmg is in the ignite. Even a reduction from 10sec to 3sec would help wonders for such encounters. Or maybe a mechancis that lets overkilled ignites "jump" to nearby targets... Any talent that helps in these situations!

Frost:
Make icelance proc the ice shard count towards Glacial spike.
Make the cap on ice shards stacks go up to 10 so we get some choice in when to blow our load.
Make Glacial spike not be affected by flurry (and buff it to compensate obviously). This will open up flurry as a more active part of our dps rotation rather than the locked-in usage it sees now.

Arcane:
Pressing barrage and seing it hit multiple enemies feels good, but losing your stacks feels bad, ther needs to be a way to use barrage without losing your stacks imo. It sees so little useage now and thats sad.
Make arcane orb baseline, it sucks that we never pick this talent because the others are so strong.

I always wanted that enemies that dies with ignite "combust" at death and deals remaining damage to nearby enemies. Probably split across the number of targets, but at least the DPS won't be inflated or lost in that case. Though this will work similarly to Living Bomb which needs to be replaced or reworked. Or it could stay as well if you ask me.

I do not agree on blaster master though. I hate that one.

[chibimi]

Small wish list

Make counterspell castable while casting like it was in mop if I remember correctly
Make arcane missile castable while moving, it would help arcanes not to be a turret spec especially if they remove the 2nd charge on blink.
Bring the old arcane tempest back, having little arcane missile firering from everywhere was fun.
With the loss of Lucid dream and Hyper threads I'm not even tempted to play fire anymore looks like it will be boring and inefficient
If they want us to be master of element they could bring back "element flavoured" talents like FrostBomb / LivingBomb / Arcane Tempest - Greater Invi / Cauterize / ColdSnap

Also I like the idea of the arcane "support / buffer" spec

[Kaver]

I do not agree on blaster master though. I hate that one.

Why do you hate Blaster Master?.. it's pretty simple. I cannot see it doing any harm.

[Kumorii]

Why do you hate Blaster Master?.. it's pretty simple. I cannot see it doing any harm.

it's a 3sec buff and stacks 3 times. If you want to maximise uptime on it you need to be aware of the duration of it and use fire blast at the end up the buff duration. If yo uget heating up proc and do fire blast at the start of your fireball cast, get heating up again and then do a fire blast at the end of the cast it might drop off and reset etc etc. All of these timings changes depending on what you cast if you had to move or if you had to stop a cast etc etc...

It's not fun for me. It's mostly just stressing me out. I guess I can just remove my weakaura and treat it as a passive, but I like being effective in general.

Compare that to firemind which is basically the same, but 12 seconds. It's weaker because it's main stat which loses value at the end of expansions, but it's less stressful and you will keep it up without thinking about it. If blaster master were a bit longer, lets say 6 seconds I think I would enjoy it more.

[Kaver]

It's not fun for me. It's mostly just stressing me out. I guess I can just remove my weakaura and treat it as a passive, but I like being effective in general.

I see this as a bit of a problem. You like to be effective, but you're not willing to put in the extra effort to manage the buff. So instead you just want it removed from the game.

I completely understand where you are coming from though. Some people enjoy more stress-free gameplay which is completely fair. It's just this type of demand which keeps lowering the skill-cap of classes, so in the end there is no way for the excellent players to differentiate themselves from the rest.

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All of these timings changes depending on what you cast if you had to move or if you had to stop a cast etc etc...

Some people would describe this as interesting and engaging gameplay.

[Kumorii]

I see this as a bit of a problem. You like to be effective, but you're not willing to put in the extra effort to manage the buff. So instead you just want it removed from the game.

I completely understand where you are coming from though. Some people enjoy more stress-free gameplay which is completely fair. It's just this type of demand which keeps lowering the skill-cap of classes, so in the end there is no way for the excellent players to differentiate themselves from the rest.

Not willing? I am willing, I'm doing it. I just don't enjoy it that much because the design of it in action isn't fun. I was only demonstrating that it's not a "simple" trait either unless you just treat it as a passive with no though.

Not sure why you go on about skill either, I was talking about stress and if it's fun, which I find it not to be. Have little to do with if it's skillful or not. I don't mind if they replace or change it into something MORE skillful than it currently is as long as it's more fun and less stressful.

Some people would describe this as interesting and engaging gameplay.

Yes, but you asked me. We are all different.

[Kaver]

I was only demonstrating that it's not a "simple" trait either unless you just treat it as a passive with no though.

But should it be simple? More complicated mechanics a good because it allows the excellent players a chance to stand out.

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Not sure why you go on about skill either, I was talking about stress and if it's fun, which I find it not to be. Have little to do with if it's skillful or not. I don't mind if they replace or change it into something MORE skillful than it currently is as long as it's more fun and less stressful.

Skill and stress go hand in hand. If you increase the duration of the BM buff then it requires less skill to handle correctly. Systems which require more skill are most commonly also more stressful by nature.

Blaster Master for example is more stressful for the average player than the excellent player. And this is what allow the excellent player to get ahead in performance because he/she can handle the stress and therefore gets the reward. It's called rewarding gameplay.

[Kumorii]

But should it be simple? More complicated mechanics a good because it allows the excellent players a chance to stand out.

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Skill and stress go hand in hand. If you increase the duration of the BM buff then it requires less skill to handle correctly. Systems which require more skill are most commonly also more stressful by nature.

Blaster Master for example is more stressful for the average player than the excellent player. And this is what allow the excellent player to get ahead in performance because he/she can handle the stress and therefore gets the reward. It's called rewarding gameplay.

No, skill and stress doesn't go hand-in-hand, they CAN do that in certain situations and only if you design it like that. XCOM is a skillful game and it's not about stress, more skillful than BM usage. Chess is a skillful game and it's not about stress, more skillful than BM usage etc etc. That's just absurd.

It seems however all of this is just a pissing contest for you since you can't seem to grasp that people can find things fun or not fun regardless of how much skill is involved. Of course it's rewarding gameplay, why do you even bring that up? You keep adding words and factors I haven't commented on as if I'm against those things when I have already explained those aren't bad things.

BM usage is skillful and seperates mages. I don't mind skillful play, I don't mind rewarding play in fact I actually want more of that. I do not however find BM buff maintenence very fun. I do NOT say it's not skillful, I do NOT say it's not rewarding, I DO say it's not FUN GAMEPLAY for me IN SPITE of those other factors being present.

Something being skillful doesn't mean it automatically is fun. I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself and explain to you that factors YOU add is something I never said were a negative part of BM.

[Kaver]

BM usage is skillful and seperates mages. I don't mind skillful play, I don't mind rewarding play in fact I actually want more of that. I do not however find BM buff maintenence very fun. I do NOT say it's not skillful, I do NOT say it's not rewarding, I DO say it's not FUN GAMEPLAY for me IN SPITE of those other factors being present.

Something being skillful doesn't mean it automatically is fun.

But at the same time you said you like to be efficient. So you want fun and stress-free gameplay, but still be efficient. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

The rotation of classes in WoW is not chess. The skill-level of rotations is defined in high speed situations like mythic raiding and M+. It's stressful situations. You cannot compared it to chess.

And as you said yourself. You can just ignore the buff. Then the game will be more fun for you. No need to remove it.

If you want to be efficient you need to be skillful. Blizzard reducing the skill-cap of the game all the time is not good.

[Biomega]

It's the difference between complexity and depth, really. BM adds complexity, but not a terrible amount of depth. It's mostly a check against quick-finger timing and good buff tracking. That's rarely fun.

[Kumorii]

But at the same time you said you like to be efficient. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

You do know that all you argue for is that to be efficient you have to indulge in boring gameplay, right? If you can't see that's what you are saying it's just proof of your refusal to actually read my posts.

As you said yourself. You can just ignore the buff. Then the game will be more fun for you. No need to remove it.

Reread what I've said and you will see that this statement is flat out stupid. I've said I like being efficient, if I ignore it I'm being less efficient.

If you want to be efficient you need to be skillful. Blizzard reducing the skill-cap of the game all the time is not good.

Once again you just demonstrate your utter refusal to understand the argument. Nor did I say that blizzard should reduce skillcap. I actually said the opposite. Do you even read the posts I write? At least demonstrate some resemblance of decency in trying to read someones posts and position before making comments on them.

Yeah I think we are done. Yes, I like being efficient and utilizing skillfull play, no I don't like BM usage.
IT'S NOT BECAUSE IT'S SKILLFUL AND EFFICIENT TO USE IT <---- Do you understand these words?
and yes that's why it's conflicting for me. It's almost as if you were so close to grasp why I don't like BM in the game in it's current state, but you keep on saying i'm against things I've constantly say I'm for.

[Kaver]

but you keep on saying i'm against things I've constantly say I'm for.

What you said you were for earlier (e.g. firemind) will just make the gameplay of the fire mage simpler and easier. Just admit that what you want is to be efficient without having to put in a lot of effort. You want to close the gap between you and the excellent mages who can actually handle mechanics like Blaster Master.

You try to disguise your excuses as "fun", but everyone can see that you're just having a hard time dealing with Blaster Master, so instead of improving it's easier for you to just demand it removed from the game.

[Kumorii]

What you said you were for earlier (e.g. firemind) will just make the gameplay of the fire mage simpler and easier. Just admit that what you want is to be efficient without having to put in a lot of effort. You want to close the gap between you and the excellent mages who can actually handle mechanics like Blaster Master.

You try to disguise your excuses as "fun", but everyone can see that you're just having a hard time dealing with Blaster Master, so instead of improving it's easier for you to just demand it removed from the game.

Let me ask you a straight up simple question which you have avoided to remark constantly throughout the thread.
I've said multiple times that I don't mind if Blizzard replaces BM with something MORE skillful as long as it works differently obviously. How does that make sense with your remark that I'm against skill checks? Can you answer that?