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  1. #181
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Nice joke.



    Even bigger one.
    obvious troll huh? gj for getting attention.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-12-14 at 02:20 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant are both purely political groups, created along political ideologies (Horde vs. Alliance) in the context of Dalaran's social hierarchy.
    Agreed.

    /10chars
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    It's not said anywhere in that definition you linked that they need to have all of the above. They share a history, according to that generic and vague definition that's enough to form an ethnic group.

    And yes, it changes a lot, because the Sunreavers are most certainly not a national, racial, or religious group.
    "history" doesnt mean past few years ffs, but decades, centuries even, neither of the two organisations you mentioned have that, sunreavers do...

    they are all belfs (racial group) national i guess is a bit of stretch, and religious we dont really know...
    but ethnic and racial are both clear, unless you actively TRY to disprove it by any means necessary (even twisting everything or giving weird and bad examples)

  4. #184
    Epic! Oakshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    Do you realize how sexist and misogynist this is when you guys say this? Rofl.
    It's not. Because they didn't establish this statement based on her gender. So get off your soapbox.

    You are also making a lot of personal assumptions about the poster when you make that kind of statement.
    Last edited by Oakshana; 2019-12-13 at 03:23 PM.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant are both purely political groups, created along political ideologies (Horde vs. Alliance) in the context of Dalaran's social hierarchy.
    please, as im always asked for source, give me ANY source claiming sunreavers are purely political group, ANY at all, please
    they do fall into definition of ethnic group, and racial too (all belfs) so according to what are they purely political? other than you opinion that is

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    "history" doesnt mean past few years ffs, but decades, centuries even, neither of the two organisations you mentioned have that, sunreavers do...

    they are all belfs (racial group) national i guess is a bit of stretch, and religious we dont really know...
    but ethnic and racial are both clear, unless you actively TRY to disprove it by any means necessary (even twisting everything or giving weird and bad examples)
    Oh okay so the SI:7 are an ethnic group then, since they have existed for decades.

    And no, we do know that the Sunreavers have nothing to do with religion.

    Also they are not all Blood Elves, actually they have some troll and orc NPCs, such as the inkeeper who is a mag'har.

    please, as im always asked for source, give me ANY source claiming sunreavers are purely political group, ANY at all, please
    Why should he, when YOU failed utterly to provide an ounce of source?
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  7. #187
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    please, as im always asked for source, give me ANY source claiming sunreavers are purely political group, ANY at all, please
    they do fall into definition of ethnic group, and racial too (all belfs) so according to what are they purely political? other than you opinion that is
    It's basically a given due to their origins. The Sunreavers were created to give the Horde access to Dalaran, and while predominantly Blood Elven they also have non-Elven members like Uda, Shokavis, Mato, Misensi, and High Arcanist Savor (Trolls, Orcs, and even a Forsaken). Similarly, the Silver Covenant was created purely to oppose the Sunreavers - and like the Sunreavers they're predominantly High Elven but also have a handful of non-Elven members.

    I think you're confusing these two groups with their predominant races, who are a racial/ethnic group in many senses. But the Silver Covenant itself isn't the entirety of the High Elven people, nor are the Sunreavers representative of all Blood Elves in kind.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Oh okay so the SI:7 are an ethnic group then, since they have existed for decades.

    And no, we do know that the Sunreavers have nothing to do with religion.

    Also they are not all Blood Elves, actually they have some troll and orc NPCs, such as the inkeeper who is a mag'har.



    Why should he, when YOU failed utterly to provide an ounce of source?
    SI:7 is organisation where members are CHOSEN, like police force...
    source on knowing about sunreavers religion? no? so as i said, we dont know
    gamewise they have other races members, lorewise they are "faction of blood elves who represented the Horde in Dalaran." according to gamepedia

    i DID provide sources, you just twist and nitpick them how you see fit so they fit your opinion...
    but anyhow, either we are BOTH obliged to provide source or neither of us, but i see you only choose the parts of anything that fit your ideas so i understand why you disagree...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's basically a given due to their origins. The Sunreavers were created to give the Horde access to Dalaran, and while predominantly Blood Elven they also have non-Elven members like Uda, Shokavis, Mato, Misensi, and High Arcanist Savor (Trolls, Orcs, and even a Forsaken). Similarly, the Silver Covenant was created purely to oppose the Sunreavers - and like the Sunreavers they're predominantly High Elven but also have a handful of non-Elven members.

    I think you're confusing these two groups with their predominant races, who are a racial/ethnic group in many senses. But the Silver Covenant itself isn't the entirety of the High Elven people, nor are the Sunreavers representative of all Blood Elves in kind.
    according to gamepedia, they are purely all blood elfs,
    "its given due to their origin" well sure they are political, BUT they didnt came to existence recently, for political reasons they just chose to side with horde but they lived in dalaran before any horde actualy existed, they probably didnt call themselves sunreavers, but i dont think that name changes much...

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    SI:7 is organisation where members are CHOSEN, like police force...
    source on knowing about sunreavers religion? no? so as i said, we dont know
    gamewise they have other races members, lorewise they are "faction of blood elves who represented the Horde in Dalaran." according to gamepedia

    i DID provide sources, you just twist and nitpick them how you see fit so they fit your opinion...
    but anyhow, either we are BOTH obliged to provide source or neither of us, but i see you only choose the parts of anything that fit your ideas so i understand why you disagree...

    - - - Updated - - -



    according to gamepedia, they are purely all blood elfs,
    "its given due to their origin" well sure they are political, BUT they didnt came to existence recently, for political reasons they just chose to side with horde but they lived in dalaran before any horde actualy existed, they probably didnt call themselves sunreavers, but i dont think that name changes much...
    And the Sunreavers is an organisation of volunteers. What's the difference?

    I didn't say we don't know the Sunreavers' religion, because we do, they worship whatever the Silvermoon elves worship, because they are just a political party of blood elves (hint: what they worship is in the name of their organizatin), I said they are not a religious group. Furthermore, Faction of blood elves =/= Faction ONLY of blood elves.

    No, you did not provide any source, you directed me to a generic and vague definition from Wikipedia (seriously? Are you that desperate) and then pretended that I reach as much as you did.

    Also, I don't have to provide any source, since it was not I who so boldly claimed that the Sunreavers are an ethinc group.

    Finally, we don't even know if such an organization existed prior to the Third War, we only know they are comprised of elves who used to study in Dalaran.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2019-12-13 at 03:34 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    And the Sunreavers is an organisation of volunteers. What's the difference?

    I didn't say we don't know the Sunreavers' religion, because we do, they worship whatever the Silvermoon elves worship, because they are just a political party of blood elves, I said they are not a religious group. Faction of blood elves =/= Faction ONLY of blood elves.

    No, you did not provide any source, you directed me to a generic and vague definition from Wikipedia (seriously? Are you that desperate) and then pretended that I reach as much as you did.
    i provided vague definitions, you provided OPINIONS... sure, i guess if you are egocentric enough opinion is worth more than any definition...

    can you be BORN a cop? surely if two sunreavers have a child they dont throw it off dalaran, its born a sunreaver, so you DONT HAVE TO be "chosen" to be sunreaver, you do have to be chosen to be SI:7, based on skills and stuff, not based on ethnicity or whatnot...

    soo they are the same religion as silvermoon belfs, that doesnt make them religious group? so jews living outside of Izrael are not religious group?

    as for their race there is literaly gamepedia page for them check it out there is as for all factions and groups on gamepedia line:
    "races: Blood elf"
    period, no other races lorewise are sunreavers... gamewise sure, they put some other horde races there, bul lorewise they are belfs only...

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i provided vague definitions, you provided OPINIONS... sure, i guess if you are egocentric enough opinion is worth more than any definition...

    can you be BORN a cop? surely if two sunreavers have a child they dont throw it off dalaran, its born a sunreaver, so you DONT HAVE TO be "chosen" to be sunreaver, you do have to be chosen to be SI:7, based on skills and stuff, not based on ethnicity or whatnot...

    soo they are the same religion as silvermoon belfs, that doesnt make them religious group? so jews living outside of Izrael are not religious group?

    as for their race there is literaly gamepedia page for them check it out there is as for all factions and groups on gamepedia line:
    "races: Blood elf"
    period, no other races lorewise are sunreavers... gamewise sure, they put some other horde races there, bul lorewise they are belfs only...
    I myself aknowledged it was an opinion, so I never pretended it was a fact, I just gave my interpretatin. You, on the other hand, claimed that the Sunreavers are an ethnic group as if it were a canon fact, and when confronted with having to find a source behind that claim, you failed completely.

    The Sunreavers are literally just a political group that seeks to estabilish an alliance between the Horde and the Kirin Tor. If two Sunreavers had a child their child would be a blood elf but not a Sunreaver, because "Sunreaver" is not a nationality or ethnic group, it's just a political faction.

    Your comparison with a cop is puzzling, since the Sunreavers are a political party of volunteers, not a profession.

    Finally, there's no reason to believe that the non-Blood Elves Sunreavers are not canon and exist merely for gameplay reasons. Well, there is a reason for you because that way you are conveniently right, but for everyone else there isn't.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    I myself aknowledged it was an opinion, so I never pretended it was a fact, I just gave my interpretatin. You, on the other hand, claimed that the Sunreavers are an ethnic group as if it were a canon fact, and when confronted with having to find a source behind that claim, you failed completely.

    The Sunreavers are literally just a political group that seeks to estabilish an alliance between the Horde and the Kirin Tor. If two Sunreavers had a child their child would be a blood elf but not a Sunreaver, because "Sunreaver" is not a nationality or ethnic group, it's just a political faction.

    Your comparison with a cop is puzzling, since the Sunreavers are a political party of volunteers, not a profession.

    Finally, there's no reason to believe that the non-Blood Elves Sunreavers are not canon and exist merely for gameplay reasons. Well, there is a reason for you because that way you are conveniently right, but for everyone else there isn't.
    ok, so gamepedia is not a reason, definition is not argument, you starting with SI:7 is somehow my fault, lets skip all this as i see theres no arguing with you
    so for fun lets say i agree with you completely

    in that case purge of dalaran was not a genocide, but brutal and bloody massacre of innocent people, motivated only by political and personal motives...
    bcs that makes it soo much better and all right and justified

  13. #193
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    fair points, and well reasoned arguments, i agree mostly
    and i never had issues with people admiting there was shit happening on both sides, i only hate passionately people who kinda ignore half of shit that happened (be it on any side)

    as for the horde being manipulated by leader into shitty moves, that too is not horde only, Garithos, Arthas, Kelthuzad, Jaina, Medivh, all basicaly alliance leaders (or at least important figures) leading to incredible death count... technicaly even Varian (war that ended with Garrosh trial was declared by him)...

    the more i think about it, the general population of azeroth, both horde and alliance seems to be either incredibly stupid or willing to commit horrible crimes just bcs of racial hatred coming mostly from the past or both
    its the biased players that wreck it, the story is pretty linear for a game (recently been a bit much villan batting on horde, but hopefully this coming expansion is a reset). many players havent read the books or even played warcraft, thus they base their assumptions off of WoW and even then just their own faction. They dont understand that the game is a paid subscription and no matter how much they weep that why wont the other faction just implode and finish, it will never happen.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ok, so gamepedia is not a reason, definition is not argument, you starting with SI:7 is somehow my fault, lets skip all this as i see theres no arguing with you
    so for fun lets say i agree with you completely

    in that case purge of dalaran was not a genocide, but brutal and bloody massacre of innocent people, motivated only by political and personal motives...
    bcs that makes it soo much better and all right and justified
    Gamepedia also counts non-blood elves as Sunreavers and nowhere does it indicate they are not canon, so I don't know what you are talking about there.

    Definition is not an argument because that definition is so generic that basically any 10+ years old organization can be considered an ethnic group, and I won't even explain why that is ridiculous.

    My example of the SI:7 proves why that definition is so vague and generic. SI:7 is a decades old organization where the members have a common history as citizens of Stormwind, but it most certainly isn't an ethnic group. I could make the same thing for the House of Nobles.

    Yeah, the Purge of Dalaran was not a genocide, it wasn't even such a brutal and bloody massacre of innocent people, since a lot of them were taken into custody anyway. Also, I mean, literally any conflict ever was motived by political and personal motives, so it's not really a surprise there.

    And no, I never said it made it better and justified, I just confronted you on your incorrect use of the term "ethnic group".
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    its the biased players that wreck it, the story is pretty linear for a game (recently been a bit much villan batting on horde, but hopefully this coming expansion is a reset). many players havent read the books or even played warcraft, thus they base their assumptions off of WoW and even then just their own faction. They dont understand that the game is a paid subscription and no matter how much they weep that why wont the other faction just implode and finish, it will never happen.
    agreed
    i loved the "ending of circle SURELY means no more factions" crowd

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Gamepedia also counts non-blood elves as Sunreavers and nowhere does it indicate they are not canon, so I don't know what you are talking about there.

    Definition is not an argument because that definition is so generic that basically any 10+ years old organization can be considered an ethnic group, and I won't even explain why that is ridiculous.

    My example of the SI:7 proves why that definition is so vague and generic. SI:7 is a decades old organization where the members have a common history as citizens of Stormwind, but it most certainly isn't an ethnic group. I could make the same thing for the House of Nobles.

    Yeah, the Purge of Dalaran was not a genocide, it wasn't even such a brutal and bloody massacre of innocent people, since a lot of them were taken into custody anyway. Also, I mean, literally any conflict ever was motived by political and personal motives, so it's not really a surprise there.

    And no, I never said it made it better and justified, I just confronted you on your incorrect use of the term "ethnic group".
    i wont even pointlessly continue arguing with you, seems useless, just one little thing
    check on the gamepedia "purge of dalaran" page, there is LITERALY said it was bloody affair and that casualties on sunreaver side were heavy (same category used for alliance losses in battle for lordaeron), so yes it was fucking brutal and bloody when there died amount of people comparable to a goddamn siege of capital city...

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    agreed
    i loved the "ending of circle SURELY means no more factions" crowd

    - - - Updated - - -



    i wont even pointlessly continue arguing with you, seems useless, just one little thing
    check on the gamepedia "purge of dalaran" page, there is LITERALY said it was bloody affair and that casualties on sunreaver side were heavy (same category used for alliance losses in battle for lordaeron), so yes it was fucking brutal and bloody when there died amount of people comparable to a goddamn siege of capital city...
    Yes, and in the casualties it says that MANY of those Heavy casualties were imprisoned. Also Wowpedia is just a fansite, it's not flawless, and they do not show any source to back that "it was a bloody affair" claim.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Yes, and in the casualties it says that MANY of those Heavy casualties were imprisoned. Also Wowpedia is just a fansite, it's not flawless, and they do not show any source to back that "it was a bloody affair" claim.
    come on, you got to admit thats twisting it a bit, theres NOTHING suggesting those imprisoned were counted into casualties...
    and prisoners are seldom reffered to as "casualties"...

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    come on, you got to admit thats twisting it a bit, theres NOTHING suggesting those imprisoned were counted into casualties...
    and prisoners are seldom reffered to as "casualties"...
    Oh, but it's not reaching to use a vague Wikipedia definition to justfy a WoW claim?

    Well actually since you seem to love those little Wikipedia definitions so much, "casualty" can just refer to people who suffer non-fatal wounds or are just captured.

    Granted, there's also nothing to suggest the casualties were heavy in the first place.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Oh, but it's not reaching to use a vague Wikipedia definition to justfy a WoW claim?

    Well actually since you seem to love those little Wikipedia definitions so much, "casualty" can just refer to people who suffer non-fatal wounds or are just captured.

    Granted, there's also nothing to suggest the casualties were heavy in the first place.
    fair point, but they why divide it? why not just leave it at casualties: heavy, shy separate the imprisoned?

    and sure, gamepedia is not a goddamn oracle, things there might me incorrect, but surely its more credible source than biased players on forums who claim that there was half a dozen dead...
    and if you played the questline during pandaria, yeah it was a bloody massacre... (i actualy played it from alliance point only as back then i only played one side)

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    fair point, but they why divide it? why not just leave it at casualties: heavy, shy separate the imprisoned?

    and sure, gamepedia is not a goddamn oracle, things there might me incorrect, but surely its more credible source than biased players on forums who claim that there was half a dozen dead...
    and if you played the questline during pandaria, yeah it was a bloody massacre... (i actualy played it from alliance point only as back then i only played one side)
    If by "bloody massacre" you mean a few quest NPCs dead and Jaina teleporting away anyone she comes across, then sure.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

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