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  1. #81
    I am Murloc! Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReVnX View Post
    If we have to explain that the PC does not canonically kill millions of people then there is nothing to discuss here, you are oblivious.
    I always figured that canonically, we do all our daily / repeatable quests once and only once. We the Hero, Commander, Champion... still have a pretty high kill count.

    Only one time did we pilot a parrot around Freehold to guano on groups of pirates.
    Only one time did we open 7 mechanical treasureboxes on Mechagon.
    Only one time did we make sure the turtles (didn't) make it to the water.

    Same with raids. They are canonically done only once, by one group of adventurers, and the story proceeds. And whatever Mythic-Only encounter takes place is canonical, too.
    ... Except with onyxia, since that was retconned to be Varian's thing. Fscking killstealer.
    I did not hit that snowmound, it's not true! It's bullshit, I did not hit it. I did NAHT.
    Oh hai Yeti

  2. #82
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Of course not, burning Teldrassil and killing thousands of innocent civilians and kids - because a dying enemy stood up to you - to funnel their souls into the maw and make yourself more powerful are totally not the actions of a villain.

    o wait
    you are right, but for instance, athas is the figure even though it was years and years before and he did much crap.

  3. #83
    Just little add for some people. Even if Sylvanas was ugly as Stitches i followed her for same reason why i followed Garrosh. War is only weapon that save us before "human potential" that is not just meme but real thing can corrupt Horde.

    Every time when some peace appear we got Quests with Alliance characters as main protagonists.

    Hell even legion force us follow Turalyon. Person who calling Horde scum everytime he can. And he is not alone. Even if we get Khadgar as real neutral character..he is still human.

    And this "human potential" is not human only. Wardens,Tyrande,paladin order hall....

    I want story with Horde characters...but every time when neutrality appear some humans told me what to do. This alone is reason why i always follow agressors.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Artelia View Post
    I want story with Horde characters...but every time when neutrality appear some humans told me what to do. This alone is reason why i always follow agressors.
    And the Alliance players all don't explicitly want to be the lawful-stupid good guys that fight the giant world ending threat while the Horde butchers children for muh honor. I've said it before that the writers/devs seem to have their ideas of what they think we want and end up appeasing a minority of both sides. The difference is that they at least pretended to give the Horde a choice in BfA whereas I don't ever see that happening with the Alliance (or even amounting to anything for that matter.)

    The Horde gets to butcher thousands for no reason and the Alliance gets to forgive them after winning one fight. Whoo. Epic feelgood moments all around...

  5. #85
    I liked her more when she was a complex and tragic characters.

    Don't hate her, as a character now. Not thrilled with how Blizzard decided to make her a pure villian by trashing Horde lore and making my character a villian in their own story.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Artelia View Post
    Just little add for some people. Even if Sylvanas was ugly as Stitches i followed her for same reason why i followed Garrosh. War is only weapon that save us before "human potential" that is not just meme but real thing can corrupt Horde.

    Every time when some peace appear we got Quests with Alliance characters as main protagonists.

    Hell even legion force us follow Turalyon. Person who calling Horde scum everytime he can. And he is not alone. Even if we get Khadgar as real neutral character..he is still human.

    And this "human potential" is not human only. Wardens,Tyrande,paladin order hall....

    I want story with Horde characters...but every time when neutrality appear some humans told me what to do. This alone is reason why i always follow agressors.
    You do realise that in case they would have won it would have been the end of Warcraft as both would have killed all life apart from the Loyalist Part? Do you follow Sylvannas and Garrosh before just because they spite the rest of Azeroth?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Nothing wrong with enjoying her character, just so long as you are aware that she is supposed to be the villain and recognize her as such and don't spend your time trying to convince yourself and others she is some sort of altruistic character all along.
    More like a "I'm just trying to help, guys. You just don't understand me." type of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    I liked her more when she was a complex and tragic characters.

    Don't hate her, as a character now. Not thrilled with how Blizzard decided to make her a pure villian by trashing Horde lore and making my character a villian in their own story.
    She is more complex now than before. lol

    I mean, what kind of complexity did she have before War Crimes?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Walross View Post
    More like a "I'm just trying to help, guys. You just don't understand me." type of character.



    She is more complex now than before. lol

    I mean, what kind of complexity did she have before War Crimes?
    She was a ruthless character, but she was also trying to find a place for her an her people in a world where they were either just tolerated or hated. Now she is just another evil character trying to destroy the world. The fact that Blizzard doesn't tell us what she is doing isn't complexity, it if just cliff hangers. Kiljaden was trying to "save the universe" and that didn't make him comples.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    You do realise that in case they would have won it would have been the end of Warcraft as both would have killed all life apart from the Loyalist Part? Do you follow Sylvannas and Garrosh before just because they spite the rest of Azeroth?
    In good fantasy world ...good side can not win. Good must be weaker than evil. Villians,conquerors,murderers,racists..we need them. We need war. We need racial diversion. And we need this outside this circle of raid bosses. Because raid boss is just joke in World of Wacraft. Not real threat.

    But Sylvanas and Garrosh started as heroes. They were not even evil. And then they just attacked Alliance ..and with good reason too.

    Noting bad about that until players ..(that are swarmed on this forum) ...appeared with their broken naive view of the world, only to stomp on everything that's not ultimate good and kind. People who only see good and evil and they want also kill EVERYTHING what is evil no matter what.
    Last edited by Artelia; 2019-12-01 at 11:28 AM.

  10. #90
    In a good fantasy world Good always wins in the end despite being weaker than evil. It's the basis of every fantasy.

    Sylvannas started as a High Elf Hero but once she turned into the Banshee Queen all the Forsaken was for her were tools to be used first against her Revenge on Arthas and when she commited suicide to cause as much damage and death as possible in order for she and the Jailer to gain more power. The goal though is unknown but the actions are definately evil. Garrosh was a daddy issues orc who had a wrong picture about his father and Azeroth. Compared to Sylvannas he had better reasons to do what he did but in the end just like Sylvannas she became a villain.

    There's nothing bad to like a villain. Hell my favorite character in the whole series is Arthas but what you said can go also in reverse. People who only see good and evil and they want to end all life and good no matter what. However the game World of Warcraft is based on good winning against evil in the end. You can like a villain but you can't claim that the villain is a misunderstood character at this point.

  11. #91
    Actually that is now how it happened. Magni talked with Anduin first in Ironforge and Anduin agreed to send the Explorers League, Earthen Ring and Cenarion Circle to heal that big wound in Sillithus. Then Magni went to Thunder Bluff as Sylvannas was there to tell her to remove the goblins from the area because of their constant mining hurting Azeroth. She feint agreed in front of him only to deny later healing Azeroth and keeping the goblins there.

    The Explorers league were sent there observing from a distance with telescopes. Then they got attacked in the middle of the night. Sapphroneta was taken as a hostage after. These Unarmed Goblins did by some miracle found weapons attacking a mostly non armed faction. How did that happen?

  12. #92
    Sylvanas in the BFA cinematic and afterwards are two different characters. One shows their actual personality and the other one is a confusing malformed clone of a character
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    But that's just silly.
    Sylvanas and Garrosh are opposites.

    Garrosh wanted war. He wanted conquest.
    Sylvanas wants to end war. She knows how vile and treacherous the Alliance is.


    People also seem to forget that this recent war started because the Alliance killed unarmed Goblins in Silithus without provocation.

    My main gripe with Warcraft-lore is the discrepancy between books, even in-game lore, and the main storyline.
    If you read around the main story line you find out that the Alliance are quite evil. They kill innocents for no reason, oppress native races, do genocide and shit.. But that is never highlighted in the main story. In there they can do no wrong.
    Any Alliance genocide examples outside of troll wars? Because thats on blood elfs. Also Sylvanas despises both factions, your loyalty means less then nothing to her in the end.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Artelia View Post
    In good fantasy world ...good side can not win. Good must be weaker than evil. Villians,conquerors,murderers,racists..we need them. We need war. We need racial diversion. And we need this outside this circle of raid bosses. Because raid boss is just joke in World of Wacraft. Not real threat.

    But Sylvanas and Garrosh started as heroes. They were not even evil. And then they just attacked Alliance ..and with good reason too.

    Noting bad about that until players ..(that are swarmed on this forum) ...appeared with their broken naive view of the world, only to stomp on everything that's not ultimate good and kind. People who only see good and evil and they want also kill EVERYTHING what is evil no matter what.
    I want to point out a main flaw in your train of thoughts - people tend to swarm and stomp evil and denounce it because evil is... evil. Antagonistic and dangerous. Its human survival mechanism to attack things that attack us and “evil” as fantasy sees it is the most obvious example of it.

  14. #94
    For me it depends on what they will do to her in Shadowlands. For the whole time in BFA i thought that some good reason will justify all the things she did, but as time passes it was harder to believe it. Now i'm curious if they intentionally want you to believe it harder and do some really good plot twist, or she just turns out to be simple villain for some dumb reason. The story is just too long for one character i think, but as long as there are subscribers, they have to make you wait for the new lore.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Sylvanas at this point is wow’s most iconic character in history.
    12,5 million subscribers at WOTLK would tell you otherwise.

    Arthas is and will always be the most iconic character of the Warcraft universe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bison91 View Post
    I dont know about you guys but every Xpac or every game i liked her more and more. Hated her when she was a simple arrogant elf. When she become undead she started being wiser and cunning without yelling. In WoW she joined the horde, later warchief and she survived all the crap. To me she become more iconic character then Arthas with all respect to that character, but he didnt move forward unlike her. What do you think?
    Arthas had a story that was several times better than Sylvanas' current story. Which I find bland, at best. Plus, Arthas' story came to an end. Instead of overselling, dragging on and milking a character that was cool. Sylvanas' story should've ended with Arthas'. This has simply gone too far.
    DK faceroll omnomnom

  16. #96
    LOL can Horde players stop pretending to be the good guys now? It's really getting tiresome.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Sylvanas at this point is wow’s most iconic character in history.
    Iconic as a representation of everything wrong with WoW's writing maybe.

    At least the Lich King and (less so) Illidan are iconic because of peoples fondness for them.

  18. #98
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Sylvanas at this point is wow’s most iconic character in history.
    more than Arthas and Illidan ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    Iconic as a representation of everything wrong with WoW's writing maybe.
    That would be Anduin the black hole Sue.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Artelia View Post
    Just little add for some people. Even if Sylvanas was ugly as Stitches i followed her for same reason why i followed Garrosh. War is only weapon that save us before "human potential" that is not just meme but real thing can corrupt Horde.

    Every time when some peace appear we got Quests with Alliance characters as main protagonists.

    Hell even legion force us follow Turalyon. Person who calling Horde scum everytime he can. And he is not alone. Even if we get Khadgar as real neutral character..he is still human.

    And this "human potential" is not human only. Wardens,Tyrande,paladin order hall....

    I want story with Horde characters...but every time when neutrality appear some humans told me what to do. This alone is reason why i always follow agressors.
    There's one fault in your argument. The faction war has never saved the Horde. Even during it, we're stuck following Alliance characters. By the end of it, the Horde is left neutered. It's a weapon that only destroys the Horde itself and paves the way for Alliance dominance. Baine himself is a product of how the faction war is written, and I would only ever support the faction war if I wanted to support characters like Baine.

    If you want a story with Horde characters, stop supporting the engine of their destruction. How many Horde characters has faction war writing killed off versus Alliance characters?

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