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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    This is also debatable, since there's no way of knowing this. I very much doubt she is more iconic than Illidan or Thrall. Arthas, Jaina, Malfurion, and Tyrande are probably around her level of popularity too.
    Arthas is definitely #1 but no one gives a shit about Jaina, Malfurion or Tyrande

    Arthas, Illidan, Sylvanas and green Orcs are the most iconic. Thrall is boring. The orc on the Warcraft 1 cover is cooler than him.
    Last edited by Broken Fox; 2019-12-06 at 12:17 AM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    That would be Anduin the black hole Sue.
    Anduin's more like a walking plot device to make sure the Alliance doesn't do anything that's not Stupid Good than a Mary Sue. What exactly has Anduin actually accomplished other than serve as a mouth piece as to why "If you kill your enemies, they win. Let's make peace!"

    I'd say Sylvanas is closer to a Black Hole Sue just because she turns everybody in her vicinity into a jibbering, lumbering idiot be that physically incapable or just really dumb.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    Anduin's more like a walking plot device to make sure the Alliance doesn't do anything that's not Stupid Good than a Mary Sue.

    I'd say Sylvanas is closer to a Black Hole Sue just because she turns everybody in her vicinity into a jibbering, lumbering idiot be that physically incapable or just really dumb.
    Most of those characters were already dumb before meeting Sylvanas. If anything, she absorbs some of the stupidity from them.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Koloss View Post
    For me it depends on what they will do to her in Shadowlands. For the whole time in BFA i thought that some good reason will justify all the things she did, but as time passes it was harder to believe it. Now i'm curious if they intentionally want you to believe it harder and do some really good plot twist, or she just turns out to be simple villain for some dumb reason. The story is just too long for one character i think, but as long as there are subscribers, they have to make you wait for the new lore.
    I doubt you can spin any kind of “good reason” for genocide and feeding innocent souls to the Maw where literally worst of the worst reside, place so terrible that only complete monsters and deranged beasts go there.

  5. #105
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    That would be Anduin the black hole Sue.
    Actually, Mr. Holy Bones "can do no wrong" Wrynn is the exact counterpart for the lolevil, moustache-twirling "I eat babies alive" Sylvanas. It's a frankly cringey duo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  6. #106
    The problem about Sylvanis is that the writers just retcon alot of events. Just look at medan or sargeras.

    In Sylvanis's case it was that she made a deal with the jailer just after WotlK. That she was trying to break the machine of death and that she is a genius moustache curling villain. It just happend suddenly and that is why most people dont like her. There are ofcourse people who just like her for the sake of emo elf thing.
    With sylvanis you dont know why she is doing things because she is full of contradictions, one moment she is calm and the other moment -when she hears the word hope- she becomes nuts.

    Right now as I'm typing this, the only thing is certain about sylvanis's, she is emotional unstable and must be put down.

  7. #107
    The whole problem was Blizzard changing chairs and writers. Take the new Star Wars series as an example of historical arc. It seems the focus now is to create a clever character, that schemed the whole plot of this expasion four expasions ago. You could see this on past with old team because they really had it in mind when writting (take as example here the Ulduar vitrals and the Sha two expasions after). This is one the reasons why we have SO MANY retcon now, especially with the Chronicles book, that make absolutelly no sense (Sylvannas told in the book that Voljin screw up her plans when he put her in a position of Warchief, and now "it was all planned all along"). Another example was Yriel, from a good character, with real potential, went full Holy Light Jihadist.
    Blizzard is really lacking some good writters that can put up a good character and a good history, trying to make some old characters look way more smarter or cunning that they really are, just to play the "We palnned it all along" card.

    Not judging Sylvanas itself (or the fact that many people still like her), because her concept was part of a common archetype that i myself like (The avenger one), but after Lich King death she kind lack of porpouse, and trying to find new porpouse to this character, new writters screwd her really good.
    "There is a hole, in a more ancient part of the mmo-champion forum. A pit where men are thrown to be forgotten. But sometimes a troll rises from the darkness. Sometimes, the hole sends something back... to make some pointless comment"

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Actually, Mr. Holy Bones "can do no wrong" Wrynn is the exact counterpart for the lolevil, moustache-twirling "I eat babies alive" Sylvanas. It's a frankly cringey duo.
    That it is. It takes two to tango. Anduin wouldn't be so offensive if he was waging a war against someone less pure evil. Imagine Anduin waging a war against Thrall, of all people. Suddenly everything is fucking different.

  9. #109
    The problem with Sylvanas is they had to make Anduin wage a righteous war on her.
    Everything prior to BtS was better or worse, but was kinda nice character writing, but then they had to write her into lulevil because Anduin has to be the Messiah himself, thus has to battle Evil itself (right after wasting an entire expansion focused on precisely fighting Evil itself)

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthiasVonTzeskagrad View Post
    The problem with Sylvanas is they had to make Anduin wage a righteous war on her.
    Everything prior to BtS was better or worse, but was kinda nice character writing, but then they had to write her into lulevil because Anduin has to be the Messiah himself, thus has to battle Evil itself (right after wasting an entire expansion focused on precisely fighting Evil itself)
    She was always that evil. It was just a matter of scale. Maniac with a knife can kill a dozen if they are lucky, maniac with a machine gun can kill a thousand and when you give maniac a nuclear launch codes... You got it i hope.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    She was always that evil. It was just a matter of scale. Maniac with a knife can kill a dozen if they are lucky, maniac with a machine gun can kill a thousand and when you give maniac a nuclear launch codes... You got it i hope.
    Except they retconned the entirety of a Cataclysm lore because it was kinda inconvenient that she gave any credit to her people's claims and identities, even if for entirely selfish reasons, a huge part of vanilla lore because they wanted to make her entire fault that living and dead cannot love each other instead of a two-sided logical mistrust cuestion, and even patches of recent lore where she admitted she wanted to fight till the bitter end at the Broken Shore and was about to leave her troops behind after retreating to save Varian if he didn't blew up.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. The only reason she ever got this popular is because she's a hot fuckable elf, even in undeath. If she was rotting like all other forsaken she wouldn't be nearly as popular.
    Do you realize how sexist and misogynist this is when you guys say this? Rofl.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    Do you realize how sexist and misogynist this is when you guys say this? Rofl.
    It's more of a misandrist, perhaps misanthropic in general, position, actually. It's implying that her fans are men just thinking with their dicks, or shallow people influenced primarily by her appearance rather than anything deeper about her actions or character.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    It's more of a misandrist, perhaps misanthropic in general, position, actually. It's implying that her fans are men just thinking with their dicks, or shallow people influenced primarily by her appearance rather than anything deeper about her actions or character.
    It's clearly misanthropist. It implies both that Sylvanas only attractive is her body, based only in t he assumption of her having said body, and also degrades anyone who likes her making it all, as you said, a question about being horny or not.

    It's funny if you ask me, how can a bunch of pixels bring out the worst of so many people and light it out.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    It's more of a misandrist, perhaps misanthropic in general, position, actually. It's implying that her fans are men just thinking with their dicks, or shallow people influenced primarily by her appearance rather than anything deeper about her actions or character.
    No, it is saying that the only way you can like the character is for her body because she happens to be sexy. That is misogynist, saying you can only like a current main character for their boobs because she has them. It is also misandrist from another perspective as you say. It is offensive to everyone.

  16. #116
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Maybe her character is fine, here ingame story writing certainly isn't.

    How could the 4th war end with such a cheesy duel?

    I mean i like some cheesy movies, but this kind of chessyness does not fit her cunning character at all.

    I would accept if some allpowerful necromancer, or the Jailer himself just appears and kills saurfang instantly, but seeing her doing it with deus ex machina powers, just didn't do it for me.

    I'd say the quality of those movies are great, but the screenwriting isn't. Its like watching GoT S8.

    Nothing here is iconic, the guy that made her into a Banshee was iconic, too iconic to be alive, actually.(pun intended)

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    Maybe her character is fine, here ingame story writing certainly isn't.

    How could the 4th war end with such a cheesy duel?

    I mean i like some cheesy movies, but this kind of chessyness does not fit her cunning character at all.

    I would accept if some allpowerful necromancer, or the Jailer himself just appears and kills saurfang instantly, but seeing her doing it with deus ex machina powers, just didn't do it for me.

    I'd say the quality of those movies are great, but the screenwriting isn't. Its like watching GoT S8.

    Nothing here is iconic, the guy that made her into a Banshee was iconic, too iconic to be alive, actually.(pun intended)
    It was very much in sync with her earlier demonstrations of being emotionally extremly unstable and lashing out violently when someone calls her out on her flaws though.
    Delaryn makes her remember, says she cannot kill hope -> Sylvanas goes nuclear and genocides the Nightelf race
    Saurfang tells her she failed to kill hope -> Sylvanas goes nuclear and wipes Saurfang out

    As for how it came to the duel?

    Sylvanas was 100% sure she would win, which even without knowing of her Jailer-instant-death powers was obvious to anyone watching, so she decided to accept and torture the Old Soldier a bit for her personal amusement, there was no downside in it for her. Or so she thought in her immense arrogance.

    Turns out Saurfang knew full well that he would die and instead of focussing on winning, he targeted her emotional vulnerability that he had seen on Darkshore. The result was spectacular: Sylavans went nuclear in full view of the Horde and Alliance and people finally saw her true face just before she ran away from her failure like the coward she is. Only the most blind and fanatic people would follow her after such a show.

    Sylvanas might be able to outthink her enemies and make plans completely devoid of moral considerations, but her emotional instability is a great weakness and that is what the cinematic was supposed to show.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Any Alliance genocide examples outside of troll wars? Because thats on blood elfs. Also Sylvanas despises both factions, your loyalty means less then nothing to her in the end.
    well theres wiping of tauren tribe in barrens just to do some archeology there, also i would arue that purge of dalaran was genocide (although i know most people disagree), and thats just what came to mind
    also, Jaina wanting to level orgrimmar should be considered too, as she didnt just go "meh, i wont" but was stopped (and not by alliance) so if you think about it only difference between this and burning of teldrasil is that Sylva succeeded

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    well theres wiping of tauren tribe in barrens just to do some archeology there, also i would arue that purge of dalaran was genocide (although i know most people disagree), and thats just what came to mind
    also, Jaina wanting to level orgrimmar should be considered too, as she didnt just go "meh, i wont" but was stopped (and not by alliance) so if you think about it only difference between this and burning of teldrasil is that Sylva succeeded
    Genocide requires a few more death then the 5 Belfs that died in Dalaran (for attacking a leading authority figure that only wanted to arrest them, mind you), but we have already learned that for most Horde people numbers mean nothing and any Horde life is worth 300000 Alliance ones, so I am not surprised you fail to see a difference.

    Jaina was rash in her purge, nobody denies that, even Varian scolds her for it, but genocide? Please....

    Also you should reread Tides of War. Jaina was stopped intially in her temporary madness, but she could and would have overpowered Thrall if she had not seen the truth of his and Kalecs words. It's not a matter of failing to achieve the destruction of Orgrimmar, she decided against it after she came back to her senses. Said temporary madness brought on by the destruction of her city and murder of several of her closest friends through the Horde, I might add. Besides this, Orgrimmar contrary to Theramore or Teldrassil is very much a military target.

    Sylvanas succeded in throwing fireballs at a defenseless tree full of innocent civilians. Congratulations, what an achievment , be proud you helped. Not to mention that she had no real reason for it, besides torturing Delaryn and being annoyed by the word "hope".

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Sylvanas succeded in throwing fireballs at a defenseless tree full of innocent civilians. Congratulations, what an achievment , be proud you helped. Not to mention that she had no real reason for it, besides torturing Delaryn and being annoyed by the word "hope".
    I kinda hope that during the inevitable Sylvanas raid, when you /say "hope" she will go triggered mode like usual. Heck, let it be the way to unlock her "hard mode".

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