Fine with Sylvanas

[Greengrim]

...she is some sort of altruistic character all along.

I want to see your face when Blizzard decide that she will, after all, end up being good.

[Mehrunes]

Genocide requires a few more death then the 5 Belfs that died in Dalaran (for attacking a leading authority figure that only wanted to arrest them, mind you)

Jesus Christ, you've just been schooled on that just a few days ago, to which you ultimately had no counterarguments. So why are you once again repeating your blatantly wrong claims about the Purge of Dalaran when you made it crystal clear you are not knowledgeable about whatsoever?

Infracted.

More than 5 Blood Elves died in Dalaran. Jaina started killing Blood Elves before she even laid down any charges, let alone made her ultimatum to Aethas. The five she killed also didn't lift a finger against her. Jaina's personally stated goal was to, you know, purge the city of the Blood Elves and not just arrest them. And she was not a leading authority figure because the city is ruled by the Council of Six as a whole, with the leader of the Council being nothing more than a representative to other nations.

Also you should reread Tides of War. Jaina was stopped intially in her temporary madness, but she could and would have overpowered Thrall if she had not seen the truth of his and Kalecs words. It's not a matter of failing to achieve the destruction of Orgrimmar, she decided against it after she came back to her senses. Said temporary madness brought on by the destruction of her city and murder of several of her closest friends through the Horde, I might add. Besides this, Orgrimmar contrary to Theramore or Teldrassil is very much a military target.

Thrall held her back even before Kalec arrived. And the truth that was in Kalec's words was that Jaina was acting like Arthas. You left that bit out. And please do tell more of this utterly fascinating tale on how Orgrimmar is a military target but another capital city like Darnassus is not. Let alone Theramore, which was the staging ground for Alliance offensive against the Horde in central Kalimdor and which at the point of its destruction didn't have any civilians in it because they left a week earlier.

Sylvanas succeded in throwing fireballs at a defenseless tree full of innocent civilians. Congratulations, what an achievment , be proud you helped. Not to mention that she had no real reason for it, besides torturing Delaryn and being annoyed by the word "hope".

Why are people still spreading this false bullshit two years later? It wasn't true even in context of the cinematic alone and A Good War released just a few days after the cinematic completely dispelled this.

[Raisei]

Jesus Christ, you've just been schooled on that just a few days ago, to which you ultimately had no counterarguments. So why are you once again repeating your blatantly wrong claims about the Purge of Dalaran when you made it crystal clear you are not knowledgeable about whatsoever?

I did not counter your constant attacks ("schooling" hahahah) because I did not feel it was worth the time to write. You have made clear that you will never accept counter-arguments anyway. Argueing with someone that has already made up his headcannon and will not waver from it is only amusing for so long.

Thrall held her back even before Kalec arrived.

Which is what I said.

And the truth that was in Kalec's words was that Jaina was acting like Arthas.

Not sure how that changes anything. The point was that Jaina stopped because she saw reason, not because Thrall and Kalec overpowered her. Had they not convinced her, she would have killed at least Thrall and then drowned Orgrimmar.

And please do tell more of this utterly fascinating tale on how Orgrimmar is a military target but another capital city like Darnassus is not. Let alone Theramore, which was the staging ground for Alliance offensive against the Horde in central Kalimdor and which at the point of its destruction didn't have any civilians in it because they left a week earlier.

Orgrimmar, build by the most militant people on the planet (Orcs) as a fortress with a giant wall of metal and stone, spikes and cannons versus Darnassus a city inside of a tree with mostly shops and a temple... one sure seems more prepared for a war then the other, besides the fact that Garrosh had long before started the war and as his capital Orgrimmar was a military target by his mere presence in it.

Darnassus had not done anything to Sylvanas until she decided it offended her gloomy look on life. Theramore was a neutral state, because Jaina was neutral until Garrosh changed that, she even had ties to the Horde and helped them. There was no reason at all to expect an attack from Theramore, if Garrosh had kept the peace.
Oh and the civillians only managed to flee because Baine send a warning. Garrosh even prepared the mana bomb so that it would hinder teleportation and thus could prevent a magical evacuation. So the fact that only some civilians died (Kindy, a teenage gnome for one) was definately not because Garrosh planned it so. And his disgusting treatment of refugees from Theramore that had done nothing whatsoever to him just reinforces this point.

Why are people still spreading this false bullshit two years later? It wasn't true even in context of the cinematic alone and A Good War released just a few days after the cinematic completely dispelled this.

Well, if you mean this entire nonsense about breaking the Nelf's spirit, then you must know by now that that also is not her true reason, just a cover story she gave to Saurfang so he would go along.
She just wanted to kill as many people as possible. She is not just a cruel monster, no no, she is an omnicidal cruel monster. My point however was that it is still not a glorious victory that you can call an achievment when all you did is burn down a defenseless target.

[Grazrug]

I did not counter your constant attacks ("schooling" hahahah) because I did not feel it was worth the time to write. You have made clear that you will never accept counter-arguments anyway. Argueing with someone that has already made up his headcannon and will not waver from it is only amusing for so long.


Which is what I said.


Not sure how that changes anything. The point was that Jaina stopped because she saw reason, not because Thrall and Kalec overpowered her. Had they not convinced her, she would have killed at least Thrall and then drowned Orgrimmar.



Orgrimmar, build by the most militant people on the planet (Orcs) as a fortress with a giant wall of metal and stone, spikes and cannons versus Darnassus a city inside of a tree with mostly shops and a temple... one sure seems more prepared for a war then the other, besides the fact that Garrosh had long before started the war and as his capital Orgrimmar was a military target by his mere presence in it.

Darnassus had not done anything to Sylvanas until she decided it offended her gloomy look on life. Theramore was a neutral state, because Jaina was neutral until Garrosh changed that, she even had ties to the Horde and helped them. There was no reason at all to expect an attack from Theramore, if Garrosh had kept the peace.
Oh and the civillians only managed to flee because Baine send a warning. Garrosh even prepared the mana bomb so that it would hinder teleportation and thus could prevent a magical evacuation. So the fact that only some civilians died (Kindy, a teenage gnome for one) was definately not because Garrosh planned it so. And his disgusting treatment of refugees from Theramore that had done nothing whatsoever to him just reinforces this point.



Well, if you mean this entire nonsense about breaking the Nelf's spirit, then you must know by now that that also is not her true reason, just a cover story she gave to Saurfang so he would go along.
She just wanted to kill as many people as possible. She is not just a cruel monster, no no, she is an omnicidal cruel monster. My point however was that it is still not a glorious victory that you can call an achievment when all you did is burn down a defenseless target.

Teldrassil wasn't defenseless. We can clearley see in the novella that the Sentinel army just arrived back when Horde advances on Darkshore with their siege engines.

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I did not counter your constant attacks ("schooling" hahahah) because I did not feel it was worth the time to write. You have made clear that you will never accept counter-arguments anyway. Argueing with someone that has already made up his headcannon and will not waver from it is only amusing for so long.


Which is what I said.


Not sure how that changes anything. The point was that Jaina stopped because she saw reason, not because Thrall and Kalec overpowered her. Had they not convinced her, she would have killed at least Thrall and then drowned Orgrimmar.



Orgrimmar, build by the most militant people on the planet (Orcs) as a fortress with a giant wall of metal and stone, spikes and cannons versus Darnassus a city inside of a tree with mostly shops and a temple... one sure seems more prepared for a war then the other, besides the fact that Garrosh had long before started the war and as his capital Orgrimmar was a military target by his mere presence in it.

Darnassus had not done anything to Sylvanas until she decided it offended her gloomy look on life. Theramore was a neutral state, because Jaina was neutral until Garrosh changed that, she even had ties to the Horde and helped them. There was no reason at all to expect an attack from Theramore, if Garrosh had kept the peace.
Oh and the civillians only managed to flee because Baine send a warning. Garrosh even prepared the mana bomb so that it would hinder teleportation and thus could prevent a magical evacuation. So the fact that only some civilians died (Kindy, a teenage gnome for one) was definately not because Garrosh planned it so. And his disgusting treatment of refugees from Theramore that had done nothing whatsoever to him just reinforces this point.



Well, if you mean this entire nonsense about breaking the Nelf's spirit, then you must know by now that that also is not her true reason, just a cover story she gave to Saurfang so he would go along.
She just wanted to kill as many people as possible. She is not just a cruel monster, no no, she is an omnicidal cruel monster. My point however was that it is still not a glorious victory that you can call an achievment when all you did is burn down a defenseless target.

More lies. Nice. Theramore was never neutral. It was an ally of the Alliance and member state as city. End of story. Just watch the wowwiki.

[Varodoc]

Theramore was a neutral state, because Jaina was neutral until Garrosh changed that, she even had ties to the Horde and helped them. There was no reason at all to expect an attack from Theramore, if Garrosh had kept the peace.

It's always funny how some people seem to forget this. Theramore only declared war after Garrosh vowed that he would conquer Kalimdor for the Horde (he said this to the shaman Rehgar before Cataclysm). Even in Catacylsm itself he vowed, and I quote, that he would remake the world, HIS WORLD, for the Horde. Jaina had no other option at that point, she knew that that warmongering tyrant would come for Theramore. Garrosh harbored a deep hatred for humans, there is no way he wouldn't march on such a mighty human city eventually, especially since Theramore was so close to his doorsteps.

[Edlarel]

It will be interesting to see if they go back and visit her journey to this point from her perspective. Going back and playing from Alliance and Horde on alts, it looks like Broken Shore was when she finally got the signal from the Jailer that it was time to stop playing friend and begin the conquest they're looking for. Her watching the horde get attacked the moment Vol'Jin falls is shock, yes, but not concern. It's more like she was surprised that things were happening now instead of later. Maybe the original plan was to play her cards right until she could be made warchief, but then the legion gave the jailer the opportunity to push the timeline up.

She then took over the horde, and cleaned up the Legion while seeking out Helya and Azshara on behalf of her partnership with the Jailer, wheeling and dealing, but Genn got in the way, stopping her from controlling Eyir, which would have propelled her further with limitless val'kyr.

So she decided to again wait, playing the good leader until the discovery of Azerite after the fall of Sargeras. Hence her quote "This changes everything." Because it means she can again push her secret agenda while also driving more power to the Maw, further empowering herself and the Jailer. I'm thinking their partnership is one of convenience. he's there, she wants its power, so she works with him until she can overtake him and maybe control it herself? All in the name of not suffering the darkness she saw upon committing suicide. She's a villain to us, but ultimately, our view of her doesn't matter to Sylvanas; she's really just scared of the nothingness that awaits her when she dies. And she'll do anything she can to avoid going back, including bringing the rest of Azeroth to heel.

[deenman]

literally? Didn't know you were one of the writers so you understand everything that is going on behind the scenes.

she basicaly admits in the loyalist cutscene that it ended sooner than she wanted,it was pretty clear she let her emotions get the better of her and it cost her resources?for shadowlands,i mean how is this new?sylvanas has always been overly emotional

[Oneirophobia]

I thought Lor'thermar dodge a bullet in this expansion.....but then again he always been a fence sitter.

He's the most believable character, whether or not you care for elves. He generally just tries to do right by his nation without nonsense ulterior motives or a weird adversion to either working towards mutual safety or war with dickheads.

Everyone else is either randomly selected by the hand of insanity or megalomania, or totally okay with their own people being butchered ever closer to extinction if it means sparring precious enemies.

[Verdugo]

It's always funny how some people seem to forget this. Theramore only declared war after Garrosh vowed that he would conquer Kalimdor for the Horde (he said this to the shaman Rehgar before Cataclysm). Even in Catacylsm itself he vowed, and I quote, that he would remake the world, HIS WORLD, for the Horde. Jaina had no other option at that point, she knew that that warmongering tyrant would come for Theramore. Garrosh harbored a deep hatred for humans, there is no way he wouldn't march on such a mighty human city eventually, especially since Theramore was so close to his doorsteps.

So what you are saying is that Theramore droped the neutrality.

[AcidicSyn]

The problem about Sylvanis is that the writers just retcon alot of events. Just look at medan or sargeras.

In Sylvanis's case it was that she made a deal with the jailer just after WotlK. That she was trying to break the machine of death and that she is a genius moustache curling villain. It just happend suddenly and that is why most people dont like her. There are ofcourse people who just like her for the sake of emo elf thing.
With sylvanis you dont know why she is doing things because she is full of contradictions, one moment she is calm and the other moment -when she hears the word hope- she becomes nuts.

Right now as I'm typing this, the only thing is certain about sylvanis's, she is emotional unstable and must be put down.

Hey now. I like Sylvanas but it's not "for the sake of emo elf thing". I like her because I loved her story from WC3 through WotLK. I even loved her in Cata because the whole idea of her seeing what Garrosh would have done to her people and choosing to focus her energy on "The Plight of the Forsaken" (remember that? lol) following the completion of her quest for Vengeance was really cool to me. Even in Legion, and in the BFA cinematic I still liked her; torched tree and all.

Going from the Arrogant Ranger General of Quel'thalas -> Broken Banshee Servant of the Scourge -> Liberator and Savior to the Forsaken Undead -> Vengeance Driven Murder Hobo -> "Anything for my People" Shepherd type -> Pragmatic "At Any Cost" Leader was cool and interesting development for a character I've really liked since she showed up. She was sympathetic, her motives made sense, she was antagonistic, and she created a fantastic source of polarization within the Horde ideology.

Then again, as I write this I suppose it would make more sense to say I LIKED Sylvanas, as opposed to using the present tense.

I try to remember that Sylvanas, that's the one I liked so much. Now? The retcons have all but gutted every aspect of her character development that made her fun and interesting; to the point where it frankly seems intentional. I'd have preferred that she killed herself after seeing Arthas put down and just stayed dead; wrapped up in a neat little bow as a part of the overall "Arthas the Lich King" story arc over this.

[Varodoc]

Hey now. I like Sylvanas but it's not "for the sake of emo elf thing". I like her because I loved her story from WC3 through WotLK. I even loved her in Cata because the whole idea of her seeing what Garrosh would have done to her people and choosing to focus her energy on "The Plight of the Forsaken" (remember that? lol) following the completion of her quest for Vengeance was really cool to me. Even in Legion, and in the BFA cinematic I still liked her; torched tree and all.

Going from the Arrogant Ranger General of Quel'thalas -> Broken Banshee Servant of the Scourge -> Liberator and Savior to the Forsaken Undead -> Vengeance Driven Murder Hobo -> "Anything for my People" Shepherd type -> Pragmatic "At Any Cost" Leader was cool and interesting development for a character I've really liked since she showed up. She was sympathetic, her motives made sense, she was antagonistic, and she created a fantastic source of polarization within the Horde ideology.

Then again, as I write this I suppose it would make more sense to say I LIKED Sylvanas, as opposed to using the present tense.

I try to remember that Sylvanas, that's the one I liked so much. Now? The retcons have all but gutted every aspect of her character development that made her fun and interesting; to the point where it frankly seems intentional. I'd have preferred that she killed herself after seeing Arthas put down and just stayed dead; wrapped up in a neat little bow as a part of the overall "Arthas the Lich King" story arc over this.

"Anything for my useful meatshield against the Hell I deserve", you mean. I never saw Sylvanas as an altruistic person who genuinely cared about the Forsaken, and she finally revealed her vile nature in BfA.

[Varitok]

That would be Anduin the black hole Sue.

So, Anduin, the person who got massive amounts of people killed and has barely done anything first hand is a Mary Sue? Do you even know what a Mary Sue is? You all need to stop whining and making shit up because you dislike a character just being good and true without any outside morally grey shit.

[AcidicSyn]

"Anything for my useful meatshield against the Hell I deserve", you mean. I never saw Sylvanas as an altruistic person who genuinely cared about the Forsaken, and she finally revealed her vile nature in BfA.

That's a retcon. Originally, she was indeed written as a character who just genuinely cared about the Forsaken, wanting them to have a place in the world. That changed of course when Blizzard decided to have her turn on her own people and murder anyone with any tie to the living; and then subsequently began retconning her motives to be for purely selfish gain. Before the retcons, no one said she deserved that hell, she was a bitch but that's about it. Now that "It was my plan all along hahahah!" is the canon your statement is correct.


EDIT: To be clear. She's always been a bitch. Pre retcon, post retcon, hell, even pre-undeath. She's always been a cold, calculated, pragmatic bitch. She absolutely saw the majority of people as, in her own words, Arrows in her Quiver. Her "love" if you could even call it that, was for the forsaken people as a group, not for individuals. I just don't see anything wrong with a character that thinks that way. Her character gutting began when the entire foundation of her character (Free will for the risen) was taken away.

[Varodoc]

That's a retcon. Originally, she was indeed written as a character who just genuinely cared about the Forsaken, wanting them to have a place in the world. That changed of course when Blizzard decided to have her turn on her own people and murder anyone with any tie to the living; and then subsequently began retconning her motives to be for purely selfish gain. Before the retcons, no one said she deserved that hell, she was a bitch but that's about it. Now that "It was my plan all along hahahah!" is the canon your statement is correct.

So retconned back in Edge of Night? Since I seem to recall that short story ending with Sylvanas realizing that the Forsaken are a valuable meatshield against Hell. Also that was never really set in stone, so I wouldn't talk about a "retcon" here. Already the Legion website mentioned how it remained to be seen whether the survival of her people was more important to her than her own soul.

Why didn't she deserve Hell though? I mean, she went there, that already means she deserved it... and now we know it was the Arbiter, the entity who is more ancient than the titans themselves, who deemed it so.

[AcidicSyn]

So retconned back in Edge of Night? Since I seem to recall that short story ending with Sylvanas realizing that the Forsaken are a valuable meatshield against Hell. Also that was never really set in stone, so I wouldn't talk about a "retcon" here. Already the Legion website mentioned how it remained to be seen whether the survival of her people was more important to her than her own soul.

Why didn't she deserve Hell though? I mean, she went there, that already means she deserved it... and now we know it was the Arbiter, the entity who is more ancient than the titans themselves, who deemed it so.

her deserving or not deserving that hell, in the context of when she went there is a philosophical question rather than an objective one, and is just my opinion.

The stuff in legion was already when her character morphing began as well. (in the edit I added to my first post). Honestly? I would probably still have no issues with the character if the whole free will issue was never messed with. I didn't like her drifting more and more toward flat out evil personally, but at least I'd have been able to stomach it.

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We now know that she doenst care for anyone, but we dont know since when. Was it after the bargain? or after MoP? or after Legion? One thing is certain, Sylvanis was likeable all the way to MoP and then after it went stale and off.

This guy gets it too.

[Varodoc]

her deserving or not deserving that hell, in the context of when she went there is a philosophical question rather than an objective one, and is just my opinion.

The stuff in legion was already when her character morphing began as well. (in the edit I added to my first post). Honestly? I would probably still have no issues with the character if the whole free will issue was never messed with. I didn't like her drifting more and more toward flat out evil personally, but at least I'd have been able to stomach it.

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This guy gets it too.

Fair enough on the Hell part, but on the Free Will part, that was already messed with in Cataclysm. Remember those Alliance farmers in Andorhal who started yelling things like "For the Dark Lady!" upon being raised? That's because Sylvanas exploited the frenzy of these mentally-broken undead for her own gains, and only AFTER the battle did she offer them a choice. Was that not already a betrayal of the "free will" ideal that she seemed to love so dearly?

[Verdugo]

So, Anduin, the person who got massive amounts of people killed and has barely done anything first hand is a Mary Sue? Do you even know what a Mary Sue is? You all need to stop whining and making shit up because you dislike a character just being good and true without any outside morally grey shit.

Anduin is a black hole sue since he destroys personality of anyone near him into his own carbon copy. Already over 75% of the alliance characters are infested.

[Verdugo]

Isn't that the point of the Light?

If it actualy becomes a plot point and this is forshadowing something more sinister, I would give my applause. But unfortunately, its just Golden making sure her surrogate son has no opposition on the team of "good guys".

[AcidicSyn]

Fair enough on the Hell part, but on the Free Will part, that was already messed with in Cataclysm. Remember those Alliance farmers in Andorhal who started yelling things like "For the Dark Lady!" upon being raised? That's because Sylvanas exploited the frenzy of these mentally-broken undead for her own gains, and only AFTER the battle did she offer them a choice. Was that not already a betrayal of the "free will" ideal that she seemed to love so dearly?

Absolutely; and that quest is where (imo) the gutting of her character began. The funny bit is that it actually would have been fine if Blizz had just said "YUP! She lied. She only offers that choice when and if it falls in line with her goals!"

A character can betray their ideals, that's well and good (Hell that's Arthas in a nutshell lol). But for <insert reasons here> Blizz decided to double down on it, insisting that she was still all about free will, despite all of us loudly citing exactly that quest in all of our questioning. Maybe it was an issue of two many hands in the same pot that made her character get so convoluted, or <insert any other rationalization here>. For my part, it's a shame to have watched one of my favorite characters turn into....well you've been watching the same story I have lol.

I guess my point is that I don't really have an issue with her becoming a villain, just with the janky as hell road that lead us here.

[Grazrug]

Anduin is bland and boring. Far too good and nice. Unrealistic. People should be grateful that Sylvanas exists to balance out his nonsense.