Fine with Sylvanas

[Raisei]

Teldrassil wasn't defenseless. We can clearley see in the novella that the Sentinel army just arrived back when Horde advances on Darkshore with their siege engines.

True, but how is an armada of ships supposed to prevent a firebombing of the tree? The tree ITSELF was very much was completely defenseless against this unprovoked attack, being a tree (and apparently extremly flammable) made it even weaker then any conventional city that is firebombed. Besides this act of genocide was completely unforseeable, even Sylvanas lackeys were taken by surprise by the order, so no one could even think of a way to defend against it.

More lies. Nice. Theramore was never neutral. It was an ally of the Alliance and member state as city. End of story. Just watch the wowwiki.

Of course it outwardly says that. But you can't really deny that Jaina as the ruler of Theramore was very much neutral, thus her city posed no threat to the Horde until Garrosh started his campaign. The wiki you mention even goes as far as speak of an unofficial truce that is broken by Garroshs campaign, forcing Theramore into a more active role.
Thrall had previously welcomed Theramore's presence after the Third War saying Jaina and her people would always have a home there and Jaina had ties to the Horde, she even secretly supported Baine when he was in need. Much to the annoyance of Varian when he learned of this later. Jaina even actively prevented the two factions from slaughtering each other in the Undercity and later when they meet with Brann in the Ulduar trailer. And let us not forget that she sacrificed her bloody father so he would not wipe out the Horde...
Had Garrosh not started a war and nuked her city, she and Theramore would have never become a threat to him.

This is the same stuff as what Sylvanas fed Saurfang when he questioned the need for more war. Sure the two factions might clash again in the future, but saying that the survival of the Horde depends on first wiping out the Alliance is bullshit. Both Sylvanas and Garrosh commited their atrocities because they wanted to, they only made up reasons so that other people would help them with it.

It's always funny how some people seem to forget this. Theramore only declared war after Garrosh vowed that he would conquer Kalimdor for the Horde (he said this to the shaman Rehgar before Cataclysm). Even in Catacylsm itself he vowed, and I quote, that he would remake the world, HIS WORLD, for the Horde. Jaina had no other option at that point, she knew that that warmongering tyrant would come for Theramore. Garrosh harbored a deep hatred for humans, there is no way he wouldn't march on such a mighty human city eventually, especially since Theramore was so close to his doorsteps.

Indeed so. For most Hordes the idea that the Alliance would fight back against them is already a crime, so they conveniently forget about the circumstances.

[Talrath]

I would undersstand that orcs, trolls, goblin and forsaken would follow sylvanis.

Orcs arent that smart.
Trolls arent that smart either.
Goblins want money.
Forsaken see sylvanis as their own.

But I dont understand that every other race would follow sylvanis after the burning of teldrassil.

Bloodelves are mad at night elves, but to the degree that they want to burn every single citizen?
Nightborn just had a different opinion and thats it, so they wouldnt follow sylvanis.
Taurens are mostly peacefull guys, so seeing citizens burn would anger them.

[Yoshingo]

"Wiser and more cunning"

a.) Slides into Arthas' melee range as an archer to get owned by him.
b.) Assumes that even though she mind controls random soldiers on the battlefield when they come back, doesn't do the same to her higher ranking new resurrectees, resulting in Godfrey resurrecting and promptly capping her.
c.) Throws a tantrum and ruins her smart plan to isolate the Night Elves from the Alliance, which had already succeed, after a single Night Elf commander says she feels bad for her. Causing a huge world war and making virtually every leader on the planet want her dead. Like Garrosh.
d.) Abandons leadership of one of the two superpowers on Azeroth after Saurfang gets a single hit against her even though her remaining Warchief could have led to far, far more deaths for her plan.

Sylvanas' entire MO has been overconfidence and it blowing up in her face. Usually because she's a child who throws tantrums when 100% of her plans don't go exactly according to plan. Which is funny considering Blizzard bruteforces 99.9% of them to succeed regardless of reality anyway.

Oh but sorry for interrupting all the people whining about Humans and Anduin again, like every thread on this subforum. Resume your totally unique and never before heard commentary.

[Sondrelk]

I would undersstand that orcs, trolls, goblin and forsaken would follow sylvanis.

Orcs arent that smart.
Trolls arent that smart either.
Goblins want money.
Forsaken see sylvanis as their own.

But I dont understand that every other race would follow sylvanis after the burning of teldrassil.

Bloodelves are mad at night elves, but to the degree that they want to burn every single citizen?
Nightborn just had a different opinion and thats it, so they wouldnt follow sylvanis.
Taurens are mostly peacefull guys, so seeing citizens burn would anger them.

The faction war in general, especially this one can best be embodied by the two leaders, Sylvanas and Anduin.

The Horde had a perfect setup for a dramatic redemption arc now that we have seen just how low races of teh Horde, especially orcs are willing to go for what they percieve as the greater good.
The Alliance similarly has the perfect setup for a story revolving around the moral dilemma of how many chances you give someone when you know that they can be better. Do you take them at face value as the psychotic murderers they seem to be, or do you try to look past that and salvage teh good from it.

But of course, the leaders were Sylvanas and Anduin.

The Horde having Sylvanas as a leader meant that all moral complexity and Saurfang guilt got thrown to the wayside because Sylvans betrayed teh Horde and the orcs Dundu nuffin.
The Alliance having Anduin as a leader meant they could not truly explore the harsh vengeance angle that the entire Alliance should be onboard with given how many times the Horde has attacked them unprovoke,d kill thousands, offed a corrupt leader then walked away scot-free.


At least the faction waris hopefully over now, Blizzard clearly has no intention of making that story with any levels of depth.

[Varodoc]

Indeed so. For most Hordes the idea that the Alliance would fight back against them is already a crime, so they conveniently forget about the circumstances.

But like it's not even a case of fighting back, it's just a case of anticipating the inevitable. It was obvious that Garrosh wouldn't stop at the Kaldorei in his bid to conquer Kalimdor and the world and he had to be stopped before he became invincible, so Jaina reacted in a proactive way. If only the Allied leaders had learned a few things from Jaina, maybe we wouldn't have had WW2...

[Tyrannica]

It was very much in sync with her earlier demonstrations of being emotionally extremly unstable and lashing out violently when someone calls her out on her flaws though.
Delaryn makes her remember, says she cannot kill hope -> Sylvanas goes nuclear and genocides the Nightelf race
Saurfang tells her she failed to kill hope -> Sylvanas goes nuclear and wipes Saurfang out

As for how it came to the duel?

Sylvanas was 100% sure she would win, which even without knowing of her Jailer-instant-death powers was obvious to anyone watching, so she decided to accept and torture the Old Soldier a bit for her personal amusement, there was no downside in it for her. Or so she thought in her immense arrogance.

Turns out Saurfang knew full well that he would die and instead of focussing on winning, he targeted her emotional vulnerability that he had seen on Darkshore. The result was spectacular: Sylavans went nuclear in full view of the Horde and Alliance and people finally saw her true face just before she ran away from her failure like the coward she is. Only the most blind and fanatic people would follow her after such a show.

Sylvanas might be able to outthink her enemies and make plans completely devoid of moral considerations, but her emotional instability is a great weakness and that is what the cinematic was supposed to show.

I bet she does not apppear weak for most people watching these duels, because after saurfang vs sylvanas we got bolvar vs sylvanas as intro cinematic to shadowlands, doing the exact same, without showing that emotional weakness.

And, needles to say i find this kind of screenwriting disgusting. It might be epic to see the LK again, in some way and form, but not sylvanas.....its like seeing female garrosh for the 3rd time in a row, starting with legion, at least in legion her cinematic appearance made some sense.

[Eazy]

Sylvanas at this point is wow’s most iconic character in history.

Nice joke.

Hated her when she was a simple arrogant elf. When she become undead she started being wiser and cunning without yelling.

Even bigger one.

[VladlTutushkin]

well theres wiping of tauren tribe in barrens just to do some archeology there, also i would arue that purge of dalaran was genocide (although i know most people disagree), and thats just what came to mind
also, Jaina wanting to level orgrimmar should be considered too, as she didnt just go "meh, i wont" but was stopped (and not by alliance) so if you think about it only difference between this and burning of teldrasil is that Sylva succeeded

Only one of them is actually legit and its a tauren tribe. Attack on Sunreavers during the purge wasnt a racial cleansing, it was attack on a political/military group, or even a sect if you can call it that way. Like if somebody decided to wipe out Mormons or something. And thats if we actually go to the deepest end and assume that she wanted them all dead (which she didnt, most of them got jailed). And Jaina didnt wiped out Orgrimmar, and she wouldnt be stopped if she didnt found it in her to stop. Sylvanas simply went and killed hundreds of thousands of people out of hatred to all life and weird, misguided quest to overfeed a Jailer.

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Anduin is bland and boring. Far too good and nice. Unrealistic. People should be grateful that Sylvanas exists to balance out his nonsense.

Pure evil dosent balance out pure good. It just makes narrative worse.

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ok, i see you only learned every information about purge from alliance player comments only
all sources put casualties as "heavy" and that purge was a "bloody affair" but sure, 5 belfs died...
and they didnt attack anyone, actualy shop owners were attacked by combined SI7 and silver covenant forces for not siding with them agains their neighbours...
alliance also killed or cripled their dragonhawks so they couldnt escape the purge...

as for the "only wanted to arrest them"... yeah, first of all there was zero reason to arrest them, investigation to find the SINGLE person who actualy did something would be reasonable, arresting innocents who have no clue WHY are being arrested and attacked is a bit too much... not to mention belfs do have a bit of experience with being "just arrested" by alliance - Garithos did it and sentenced ALL of them to execution - so why would they expect any different treatment?

for Jaina changing her mind... well if it wasnt for kalec and thrall she would do it so again, she was stopped, if saurfang or someone else didnt start to bitch AFTER the tree was already burning maybe sylva would too...
not saying that sylva was right to burn teldrasil or that it was an achievment, just saying its not like alliance "heroes" and leaders are any better... take greymane for example, and his attack in stormheim, attacking allies in times of war, without any provocation or reason (well, other than vengance) AGAINST direct orders, and that was absolutely ignored after he didnt even get scolded or what

also i noticed you didnt adress the genocide of taurens in barrens, i guess its better to ignore something you cant justify no matter how hard you try :P

EDIT: just for you info, according to geneva convention following also counts as genocide:
"Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;"
so basicaly in stormheim by smashing the lamp and freeing the Eyir greymane have commited genocide

Undead or Forsaken specifically are not a race, its a condition. You sound like one of those who argue that curing deafness is “genocide of deaf culture and sign language”.

[KrakHed]

Anduin is bland and boring. Far too good and nice. Unrealistic. People should be grateful that Sylvanas exists to balance out his nonsense.

Sylvanas doesn't balance anything. She enables his bland boringness like no other.

[Minikin]

True, but how is an armada of ships supposed to prevent a firebombing of the tree? The tree ITSELF was very much was completely defenseless against this unprovoked attack, being a tree (and apparently extremly flammable) made it even weaker then any conventional city that is firebombed. Besides this act of genocide was completely unforseeable, even Sylvanas lackeys were taken by surprise by the order, so no one could even think of a way to defend against it.



Of course it outwardly says that. But you can't really deny that Jaina as the ruler of Theramore was very much neutral, thus her city posed no threat to the Horde until Garrosh started his campaign. The wiki you mention even goes as far as speak of an unofficial truce that is broken by Garroshs campaign, forcing Theramore into a more active role.
Thrall had previously welcomed Theramore's presence after the Third War saying Jaina and her people would always have a home there and Jaina had ties to the Horde, she even secretly supported Baine when he was in need. Much to the annoyance of Varian when he learned of this later. Jaina even actively prevented the two factions from slaughtering each other in the Undercity and later when they meet with Brann in the Ulduar trailer. And let us not forget that she sacrificed her bloody father so he would not wipe out the Horde...
Had Garrosh not started a war and nuked her city, she and Theramore would have never become a threat to him.

This is the same stuff as what Sylvanas fed Saurfang when he questioned the need for more war. Sure the two factions might clash again in the future, but saying that the survival of the Horde depends on first wiping out the Alliance is bullshit. Both Sylvanas and Garrosh commited their atrocities because they wanted to, they only made up reasons so that other people would help them with it.



Indeed so. For most Hordes the idea that the Alliance would fight back against them is already a crime, so they conveniently forget about the circumstances.

dude ill save you the effort. you are arguing with @Grazrug, hes wayyyyy down the rabbit hole of faction bias. He would rather eat his own foot than admit that the faction he plays has made some mistakes.

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Nice joke.



Even bigger one.

hey man, she stopped powersliding into deathknight blades after she got raised.

thats an improvement in strategy and mental acumen.

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"Wiser and more cunning"

a.) Slides into Arthas' melee range as an archer to get owned by him.
b.) Assumes that even though she mind controls random soldiers on the battlefield when they come back, doesn't do the same to her higher ranking new resurrectees, resulting in Godfrey resurrecting and promptly capping her.
c.) Throws a tantrum and ruins her smart plan to isolate the Night Elves from the Alliance, which had already succeed, after a single Night Elf commander says she feels bad for her. Causing a huge world war and making virtually every leader on the planet want her dead. Like Garrosh.
d.) Abandons leadership of one of the two superpowers on Azeroth after Saurfang gets a single hit against her even though her remaining Warchief could have led to far, far more deaths for her plan.

Sylvanas' entire MO has been overconfidence and it blowing up in her face. Usually because she's a child who throws tantrums when 100% of her plans don't go exactly according to plan. Which is funny considering Blizzard bruteforces 99.9% of them to succeed regardless of reality anyway.

Oh but sorry for interrupting all the people whining about Humans and Anduin again, like every thread on this subforum. Resume your totally unique and never before heard commentary.

TrAItoR!

mAry sUE!

ArCANE CanON oN SHiP!

i feel like iam forgetting a couple....

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ok, i see you only learned every information about purge from alliance player comments only
all sources put casualties as "heavy" and that purge was a "bloody affair" but sure, 5 belfs died...
and they didnt attack anyone, actualy shop owners were attacked by combined SI7 and silver covenant forces for not siding with them agains their neighbours...
alliance also killed or cripled their dragonhawks so they couldnt escape the purge...

as for the "only wanted to arrest them"... yeah, first of all there was zero reason to arrest them, investigation to find the SINGLE person who actualy did something would be reasonable, arresting innocents who have no clue WHY are being arrested and attacked is a bit too much... not to mention belfs do have a bit of experience with being "just arrested" by alliance - Garithos did it and sentenced ALL of them to execution - so why would they expect any different treatment?

for Jaina changing her mind... well if it wasnt for kalec and thrall she would do it so again, she was stopped, if saurfang or someone else didnt start to bitch AFTER the tree was already burning maybe sylva would too...
not saying that sylva was right to burn teldrasil or that it was an achievment, just saying its not like alliance "heroes" and leaders are any better... take greymane for example, and his attack in stormheim, attacking allies in times of war, without any provocation or reason (well, other than vengance) AGAINST direct orders, and that was absolutely ignored after he didnt even get scolded or what

also i noticed you didnt adress the genocide of taurens in barrens, i guess its better to ignore something you cant justify no matter how hard you try :P

EDIT: just for you info, according to geneva convention following also counts as genocide:
"Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;"
so basicaly in stormheim by smashing the lamp and freeing the Eyir greymane have commited genocide

my God. Well thats it folks thread was bust before, then it became a necro and now its just even worse than before...

[Linuriel]

I'm fine with her dying.

[Raisei]

I bet she does not apppear weak for most people watching these duels, because after saurfang vs sylvanas we got bolvar vs sylvanas as intro cinematic to shadowlands, doing the exact same, without showing that emotional weakness.

And, needles to say i find this kind of screenwriting disgusting. It might be epic to see the LK again, in some way and form, but not sylvanas.....its like seeing female garrosh for the 3rd time in a row, starting with legion, at least in legion her cinematic appearance made some sense.

I agree, she is outwardly very powerful, the way she blocked Saurfangs (an Orc 3 head bigger then herself and about three times her weight in pure muscle) overhead slash with a two-handed axe with just a dagger, made it obvious that she can`t be beaten by sheer strength. Frankly, I did not expect that, I thought she'd evade to play into the classical theme of "speed over power". That she is actually the stronger one of the two was a surprise.

Since Saurfang was probably one of the most powerful warriors at that time, maybe even the most powerful after Varians death, this shows a clear image. We won`t beat her with strength alone. It remains to be seen if magic or the Light/Shadow/Fel can still harm her.

Generally I did not mind the fact that she won against Bolvar, she was favoured in this fight by being undead and thus immune to many of the things Bolvar could do (Frost and Unholy basically do nothing, lorewise), I am just pissed by HOW EASY she won. At least let him get one decent smack with that hammer in so she drops her insufferable smug smirk.

But the difference of the fight with Saurfang is, that she actually HAD to evade the hammer. So there is a limit to her physical strength. It is just way above anything we can hope to achieve at the moment (we needed more then 10 people + Anduin, Genn and Alleria to take down even Saurfang). If we want to destroy her we have to target her weakspot and that is her emotional instability.

It is a running theme that Sylvanas cannot deal with emotions, especially negative ones that result from remembering her past. Probably a result of being an undead for many years and thus cut off from her emotions. She is actively trying to mask any lingering feelings but that mask is getting cracks now and then. Like in War Crimes after Vareesa decided against poisoing Garrosh. Sylvanas was completely out of control, the feeling of betrayal nearly wiped out her sanity to the point that she went through a forest and just killed any animal she could find, including tearing the head of a bear with her bare hands.

If we can somehow use this to our advantage we can win, no matter what Jailer death powers she possesses.

[Terongor]

Yeah, no, she absolutely did not become wise when she became undead, even back in WC3 she was an absolute idiot.

Did you wc3 RoC sylvanas was an idiot during whole RoC campaign she became alot smarter than she was in life.

[Lolites]

Only one of them is actually legit and its a tauren tribe. Attack on Sunreavers during the purge wasnt a racial cleansing, it was attack on a political/military group, or even a sect if you can call it that way. Like if somebody decided to wipe out Mormons or something. And thats if we actually go to the deepest end and assume that she wanted them all dead (which she didnt, most of them got jailed). And Jaina didnt wiped out Orgrimmar, and she wouldnt be stopped if she didnt found it in her to stop. Sylvanas simply went and killed hundreds of thousands of people out of hatred to all life and weird, misguided quest to overfeed a Jailer.

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Pure evil dosent balance out pure good. It just makes narrative worse.

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Undead or Forsaken specifically are not a race, its a condition. You sound like one of those who argue that curing deafness is “genocide of deaf culture and sign language”.

from UN definition genocide is: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", sunreavers are ethnic group, you might argue it wasnt genocide (i think it was but ok) but however you twist it it was ethnic purge, massacre at best...

"curing deafness is “genocide of deaf culture and sign language”" - im pretty sure sterilizing (a.k.a. making them unable to procreate) deaf people wouldnt cure them... and neither it cures undead, so again, twist it how you want, definition disagrees with you on this one completely...

as for Jaina, she was persuaded to stop, yes she changed her mind but it wasnt on her own, so at minimum she wanted to commit genocide, before SOMEONE ELSE (and not alliance members) changed her mind

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my God. Well thats it folks thread was bust before, then it became a necro and now its just even worse than before...

why is that? you think i shouldnt bring definition from UN (geneva convention) into game i assume? well, but then burning teldrasssil WASNT genocide, as there is no law in azeroth stating what genocide is

so we can either use real world definitions (we already use real world morality anyway) or there NEVER was any genocide in azeroth...
i prefer to use real world definition, rather than normal forum attitude "horde killing alliance is genocide, alliance killing horde is justified action" which is stupid hypocrisy...

[Raisei]

from UN definition genocide is: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", sunreavers are ethnic group, you might argue it wasnt genocide (i think it was but ok) but however you twist it it was ethnic purge, massacre at best...

Yes, this definition is extremly stupid. Thank you, UN. Think about it. You can use this definition to assign the word genocide to even the killing of ONE person, since it says "in parts". Every person alive belongs to some national, ethical, religious or racial group. If killing "parts" of such a group is genocide then the Death Sentence in Texas is genocide.
Obviously no one in their right mind would say that, as with most "clear" definitions made by politicians, this one can encompass everything and nothing. But as thinking people we know that the word genocide is reserved for big horrible acts, such as the Holocaust, the murder of Native Americans and similar things. Acts that intentionally try to "destroy a population", as it says in another definition.

Jaina never intended to wipe out the Blood Elf race, she just wanted them out of Dalaran because some of them betrayed Dalaran's neutrality and endangered a bloody continent with their leader being fully aware of this and hiding it. As I said in some other post, if Jaina had wanted to wipe them out she would have done so, easily.

as for Jaina, she was persuaded to stop, yes she changed her mind but it wasnt on her own, so at minimum she wanted to commit genocide, before SOMEONE ELSE (and not alliance members) changed her mind

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Of course she did not stop on her own, but she did not need to be overpowered is what I am saying. Also considering his ties to Jaina I am no longer sure we can count Kalec as neutral. I mean is that not what many of the Horde say about Baine for being friends with Anduin? If Baine is an Alliance lapdog then Kalec is Jaina's pet.

why is that? you think i shouldnt bring definition from UN (geneva convention) into game i assume? well, but then burning teldrasssil WASNT genocide, as there is no law in azeroth stating what genocide is

There is a very clear understanding what Genocide is. War Crimes makes that clear, when Tyrande flatout asks Varian if he is genocidal. Even if there is no UN there, there is codified law. Teldrassil definately falls under it, Jaina's purge of Dalaran does not, no matter how you tyr to twist it.

so we can either use real world definitions (we already use real world morality anyway) or there NEVER was any genocide in azeroth...
i prefer to use real world definition, rather than normal forum attitude "horde killing alliance is genocide, alliance killing horde is justified action" which is stupid hypocrisy...

I always love when Hordes use the word Hypocrasy. Every time a new atrocity from the Horde side happens, we see the same lame excuses (Dalaran, Stormheim, Taurajo). I have yet to see any act by the Alliance that claimed as many lives as the Burning of Teldrassil alone.

[BrintoSFJ]

I am also fine with her being the scum she is, no bullshit or whatsoever, straight up scum who is hellbent on destroying the world. That is a villain I can get behind.

[Lolites]

If killing "parts" of such a group is genocide then the Death Sentence in Texas is genocide.

ok, 1. unless i missed something and people in Texas are getting executed for their ethnicity rather than CRIMES, no its not... and in dalaran we are not talking about 1-2 belfs but about HEAVY casualties as stated in gamepedia, if you have better source of lore that says otherwise, please let me know

2. Jaina betrayed the neutrality first (helped alliance hide divine bell) but thats not important, if you played the q line for alliance first or one of first q was to cripple/kill sunreaver dragonhawks, so she "just" wanted them out (without authority, as she was 1of 6 leaders), but then took their means of escape... seems fishy...
as for sunreaver leader, he had a choice to let belfs be massacred by Garrosh (of who he knew he wouldnt hesitate to do it) or try to reason with Jaina, who he thought would be more reasonable... well she wasnt
and no offense, but sending soldiers against innocent, clueless mostly civilian targets, unless you are fucking retarded you have to know it will be fucking bloody...
on top of it, the alliance forces were doing things like feeding SHARKS with the arrested belfs, so fucking surprise they rather choose to fight... sure Jaina didnt order that, BUT, as a leader/commander who gave the order to attack/arrest, she IS responsible, at least partialy...

3.genocide definition in azeroth, ok, i would much rather follow that than the real worrld definition, but unless you can provide it you cant decide on your own what is and what is not a genocide according to it, without it its just your opinion not a fact...

4. cant speak for others, i never said horde havent done anything bad or that taurajo is in any means comparable to teldrasil, just that when alliance do something bad its somehow all right...

ill give you simple example, bombing theramore, which was military target, as a tactical move in war, is viewed as horrible, YET wiping whole fucking tribe of taurens in barrens, which was clearly civilian target, for no other reason than greed (archeology dig), thats never even mentioned, THAT is a goddamn hypocrisy...
and putting all blame on sylva/garrosh its stupid, i know, BUT, at least garrosh as leader was put on trial for it (well sylva would be to if she didnt escape i believe), who was the last alliance leader ever even accused of anything? lets say i admit purge wasnt genocide, but it SURELY wsnt allright, how come Jaina and i think it was Vereesa who was leading troops were never even mentioned as doing anything bad?
people always say how horrible was sylva wanted to mind control Derek, or any other forsaken for that matter, yet somehow ignore the ONLY leader we ever seen ingame to mind control his own was Anduin in pandaria, who is somehow saint to most people, whats that if not hypocrisy?

[Talrath]

The faction war in general, especially this one can best be embodied by the two leaders, Sylvanas and Anduin.

The Horde had a perfect setup for a dramatic redemption arc now that we have seen just how low races of teh Horde, especially orcs are willing to go for what they percieve as the greater good.
The Alliance similarly has the perfect setup for a story revolving around the moral dilemma of how many chances you give someone when you know that they can be better. Do you take them at face value as the psychotic murderers they seem to be, or do you try to look past that and salvage teh good from it.

But of course, the leaders were Sylvanas and Anduin.

The Horde having Sylvanas as a leader meant that all moral complexity and Saurfang guilt got thrown to the wayside because Sylvans betrayed teh Horde and the orcs Dundu nuffin.
The Alliance having Anduin as a leader meant they could not truly explore the harsh vengeance angle that the entire Alliance should be onboard with given how many times the Horde has attacked them unprovoke,d kill thousands, offed a corrupt leader then walked away scot-free.


At least the faction waris hopefully over now, Blizzard clearly has no intention of making that story with any levels of depth.

Hope they dont go this way anymore. Since no horde leader had any problem with the burning of almost an entire race. This is what ticked me off. Im 100% sure the nightborn would have left the horde and the bloodselves aswell because of the burning. The nightborn could just say that they made a mistake while for the bloodelves it would be a strategic desicion to join the alliance, after all, you dont want to be alone in the eastern kingdoms. Its just stunningly how blizzard would overlook the consequences of a certain action. The horde vs alliance should always be on the background and never an expansion itself.

In Shadowlands however I hope blizzard will show the splintering of the alliance, afterall, the alliance consists of many people and they arent as naive and misguided as Anduin.

Also, Shadowland will be the first expansion that i wont buy. I think id rather watch the lore videos of bellular or nobble. Blizzard just really went bad in bfa.

[Minikin]

from UN definition genocide is: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", sunreavers are ethnic group, you might argue it wasnt genocide (i think it was but ok) but however you twist it it was ethnic purge, massacre at best...

"curing deafness is “genocide of deaf culture and sign language”" - im pretty sure sterilizing (a.k.a. making them unable to procreate) deaf people wouldnt cure them... and neither it cures undead, so again, twist it how you want, definition disagrees with you on this one completely...

as for Jaina, she was persuaded to stop, yes she changed her mind but it wasnt on her own, so at minimum she wanted to commit genocide, before SOMEONE ELSE (and not alliance members) changed her mind

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why is that? you think i shouldnt bring definition from UN (geneva convention) into game i assume? well, but then burning teldrasssil WASNT genocide, as there is no law in azeroth stating what genocide is

so we can either use real world definitions (we already use real world morality anyway) or there NEVER was any genocide in azeroth...
i prefer to use real world definition, rather than normal forum attitude "horde killing alliance is genocide, alliance killing horde is justified action" which is stupid hypocrisy...

1. If you think that only alliance houses biased posters then you have no idea what the word "hypocrisy" even means. Both factions have people who are biased beyond belief.

2. Bringing real world laws is not the same as using a word in a language. When the convention can start including trees that heal people and birds that shoot lazers then youd have a leg to stand on, until then you just look dumb bringing that into a game. And if your argument is trying to pillar itself on "genocide cant be used! its a real world term!" then I guess we cant use english in the game at all, cuz you know thats a real world language.

3. If you really want to complain perhaps you should turn about and aim your statements at blizzard about how the horde is set on a villainous cycle cuz of its leader instead of weeping that the alliance is bad too.

[Varodoc]

What's the source for the Sunreavers being an ethnic group? That sounds rather absurd, to me they just seem like a pro-Kirin Tor political party.