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  1. #61
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    Hi, I just want to start out by saying that i love classic, have been playing since release and don't plan on stopping anytime soon. The back to basics mmorpg is awesome. it is not for everyone and that is a good thing. that being said...

    I am a tank. I have two at 60 now (druid/warrior) and spend most of my time running instances, attaining by pre-raid bis and helping others do the same.
    there are a few things i really wish that the majority of players would realize or know, from a tanks perspective.

    -tanks require hitting targets to build aggro. a running target is not truly aggroed, or is in such a small amount that any damage from another source will pull that mob.
    -tanks build aggro at 1/5 the rate as retail. they boosted it during wrath. the amount it takes to gain aggro off a pulled mob is significantly higher as well.
    -hitting a target the same time as the tank will almost always get adds pulled to you.
    -continuing to hit mobs you have aggroed, makes pulling them off you exponentially more difficult.
    -no one seems to know that every class has an aggro dump. i would speculate less then 10% of dps actually use them.
    -single target dps is invaluable in dungeons. focusing specific targets in proper order makes tanking, healing and dpsing much easier and faster. AoE is great, but is far more siutational than people realize or play.

    I love this game. but, my server as well as a few others i have read about have a tank population issue. these are most of the reasons why there is a tank drought. if you wish to improve it, just be mindful and play the way the designers intended 15 years ago and not how they intend for retail to be played today.

    thanks/

    excelsior!
    Had a tank in SM GY Last night having trouble holding aggro. I was level 28, the enemies were level 33. The majority of my frost bolts were resisted, yet I was still pulling aggro off of him.

    One thing I really wish i'd see more tanks doing is marking targets. A simple Skull and X for first and second would be enough. Yes, the DPS should be careful, but also the Tank shouldn't assume we are mind readers either.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  2. #62
    I Usually write that in group b4 we start. I also mark targets and ask ppl to wait 3-5 sec before heavy aoe. It actually works!
    I dont think DPS classes like agrro. If you get aggro you cant dps well and you will die soon.
    Never had any issue when I explain things that people dont know.

  3. #63
    Bloodsail Admiral CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You're dealing with Wrath babies and later who never learned about threat management or any other what to play DPS aside from going balls to the wall on damage. In combat control (sheep, Kidney Shot...)? They dont get it. Threat dumps? Likewise.


    It's not really their fault, it's the way the last 11+years of the game has trained them.
    It's also illogical to ask dps to not play the game just because a core mechanic was so badly designed that if people play as they naturally think they should, everything goes to shit. It's a video game, its only purpose is to be played. Just being logged on and not doing any action is not playing. Being in a dungeon sitting in front of enemies and being forced to not take any action otherwise everything jumps you is contradictory to the whole concept of video game.

    Vanilla tanking system was objectively garbage.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  4. #64
    Honestly im so sick of that shit that im either running dungeons with 3 mages and let them aoe everything and all I do is tank bosses. Or I charge 20g for a run and hear them complain that they paid for a tank who struggles to hold aggro.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    Hi, I just want to start out by saying that i love classic, have been playing since release and don't plan on stopping anytime soon. The back to basics mmorpg is awesome. it is not for everyone and that is a good thing. that being said...

    I am a tank. I have two at 60 now (druid/warrior) and spend most of my time running instances, attaining by pre-raid bis and helping others do the same.
    there are a few things i really wish that the majority of players would realize or know, from a tanks perspective.

    -tanks require hitting targets to build aggro. a running target is not truly aggroed, or is in such a small amount that any damage from another source will pull that mob.
    -tanks build aggro at 1/5 the rate as retail. they boosted it during wrath. the amount it takes to gain aggro off a pulled mob is significantly higher as well.
    -hitting a target the same time as the tank will almost always get adds pulled to you.
    -continuing to hit mobs you have aggroed, makes pulling them off you exponentially more difficult.
    -no one seems to know that every class has an aggro dump. i would speculate less then 10% of dps actually use them.
    -single target dps is invaluable in dungeons. focusing specific targets in proper order makes tanking, healing and dpsing much easier and faster. AoE is great, but is far more siutational than people realize or play.

    I love this game. but, my server as well as a few others i have read about have a tank population issue. these are most of the reasons why there is a tank drought. if you wish to improve it, just be mindful and play the way the designers intended 15 years ago and not how they intend for retail to be played today.

    thanks/

    excelsior!
    you're channeling my tank drought thesis. wp. good luck out there brother.

  6. #66
    This whole thread is testament as to why retail is starting to lean into role agnostic content, and as a guild-only tank of every class designated as a tank, I’m so happy it’s going that way. Role agnostic=tank owned.

    To the OP: you’re going the gods’ work with your words, even though they’re being spoken against a windstorm. I wish you luck!

    Be kind to each other, or consign yourselves to a solo experience... and good luck soloing in the outdated design ethics of classic!
    Last edited by Omedon; 2019-11-19 at 03:27 PM.

  7. #67
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    What's my Shaman's Threat Dump?

    What about my Fury Warrior I've been quietly working on what's his threat dump?

    And before you say "stop attacking", No
    Standard operating procedure is to start slow and ramp up, using the 'focus target' feature and attacking the tank's target while tank maintains area aggro on the other mobs enough to keep them off the healer. Fury's tricky with aggro because their playstyle is very balls-out, but for example if you wait until the tank's target has three sunders on it, you should generally be ok on aggro, just be careful with Whirlwind and such.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Had a tank in SM GY Last night having trouble holding aggro. I was level 28, the enemies were level 33. The majority of my frost bolts were resisted, yet I was still pulling aggro off of him.

    One thing I really wish i'd see more tanks doing is marking targets. A simple Skull and X for first and second would be enough. Yes, the DPS should be careful, but also the Tank shouldn't assume we are mind readers either.
    Also a good point. Skull, X, Moon (for sheeping/other CC) goes far in helping group pulls go smoothly, so long as DPS coordinate on the tank's target to avoid grabbing hate. Like many other aspects of Classic, communication is key and people are having to relearn this (higher-skilled players have been able to zerg it but your average player isn't good enough for that).
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  8. #68
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post

    Stop attacking
    You got it, I see. See how much threat can your tank generate, and adjust your output accordingly. Otherwise you'll have to stop attacking (omg the world is ending) or kiss the ground, possibly getting a couple of teammates killed as well.

    In other words, stop with your meter obsession and play as a team. You'll be fine
    "This world is a prison!"

  9. #69
    The best thing to do as a tank is get a guild or a group of friends, and only run with them, especially with a good healer. The more you run with the same people, the better you understand each others' tendencies, the smoother your runs get. I main a feral tank and my wife mains a disc priest. We're both less than pre-raid bis (though she has a couple of raiding epics). No matter who we take as dps, no matter which classes, no matter how geared or undergeared they are, the result is always the same: smoothest and fastest runs, because nothing beats a good tank/healer duo.

  10. #70
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Also a good point. Skull, X, Moon (for sheeping/other CC) goes far in helping group pulls go smoothly, so long as DPS coordinate on the tank's target to avoid grabbing hate. Like many other aspects of Classic, communication is key and people are having to relearn this (higher-skilled players have been able to zerg it but your average player isn't good enough for that).
    True indeed. I've been making sure to keep a line of communication open in the groups I join. It really helps, and also keeps the group in good spirits knowing that people are willing to work together to make the run successful, rather than just staying quiet and making assumptions on how things should go.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  11. #71
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Idk mate, people I play with are doing just fine on skittish weeks. The players who do not care to learn are the trouble and these are not wrath babies. You had em during vanilla, you have them now. It's not that everyone used aggro resets or did threath management just because it was a thing
    Sure. But Wrath and after never taught new players to manage threat because it wasn't a thing so those who started in those expansions come to Classic, where threat IS an issue and don't get it and don't really think about using the tools they have to manage it. Should they learn? Yes, and the good ones will. But a lot are still in the "Bad tank, can't hold aggro!" mindset from retail where a tank that loses aggro to a DPS pretty much *is* bad.

    Thing is, starting in Wrath good DPS players were just those who did high DPS, period. Before, it was people who could see that a mob had aggroed onto the healer and could CC it, who knew to CC in combat that mob doing scattering shot or fears and who could do high DPS by going RIGHT TO the edge of pulling threat without doing so.

    Note, I said good DPS - you're totally right that not all DPS did this even in vanilla. But it was a way to tell good players from bad. Hell good DPS might even come with health pots and bandages to use during a long boss fight in raids so that healers could conserve mana. But that, too, went away in Wrath when healer mana became basically infinite and DPS didn't have to worry about their own survival.
    Last edited by clevin; 2019-11-19 at 05:37 PM.

  12. #72
    As a tank I agree it can be very frustrating however it is how the game is played now, whether we like it or not. There are things you should be trying to do if at all possible to help with larger packs that will at least buy time before DPS is pulling mobs right off of you. You should be running every thorns style buff available to you and dps items (crystal spire, oil of immolation, any gear with thorns effects, engineering bombs and items, buffs from your group and so on) as each of these items generates threat for you. It does not take long to farm enough to make a single instance run, or you can alternatively buy some of this. Unfortunately, no one wants to be running an instance for 3 hours these days, and tanking with items like that will help significantly hold aggro.

    There are many videos out there that will show you have to more effectively AOE tank as well as other sites for research. Just knowing your threat table and where your taunt buttons are no longer mean you are a good tank. You have to adapt just like the rest of the population. Took me a few frustrating runs myself to let go of my ego and realize I could do things different, and quite frankly it has been more fun since I did. In all honesty, the only time my groups CC anymore are only if a certain pull may kill me which is very rare.

    All of that said though, I definitely agree that DPS does need to slow down initially to allow you to position and get a few things down (drop grenades, use an aoe trinket etc.) then go ham. As others have pointed out, your individual abilities after that should focus on only the elites in the pack. The nons can be killed off if they peel away, those aren't going to threaten too many players and are not worth chasing and burning your taunt.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    What's my Shaman's Threat Dump?

    What about my Fury Warrior I've been quietly working on what's his threat dump?

    And before you say "stop attacking", No
    Then die and be at the bottom of the DPS meter. Threat control is a major part of playing Classic, and you should learn how. Only auto attacking for a few seconds to let the tank catch back up or stopping DPS entirely is a viable method.

    The other night our main tank had an unfortunate string of misses and our DPS would not hold off to let him catch back up and several of them died...

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    -hitting a target the same time as the tank will almost always get adds pulled to you.
    Additionally, something very few people always have been aware of: your threat increases if you're in close range to a mob. Or rather, you can do 15% more damage / threat to a mob without pulling aggro if you stay out of melee range of it.

    Threat meters were a huge requirement during raiding back in Vanilla.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Boss fights aside, who actually cares about aggro in 5mans? Are you one of those little dictator tanks who tilts when people don't do exactly what he expects them to?
    As a healer it slows the run down when I have to spam Flash heal on dps constantly and drink after every pull. Healing the tank is the most mana cost effective.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    As a healer it slows the run down when I have to spam Flash heal on dps constantly and drink after every pull. Healing the tank is the most mana cost effective.
    As a healer what else have you got to do. Sorry that we're interrupting you binge watching Ru Paul :P
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Setuzor View Post
    So much this. If you have very bad gear dual-wielding might make you take too much damage, but other than that it's very viable and effective.
    Except your threat is 20% lower than other dps i
    battle and zerk stance

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    As a healer what else have you got to do. Sorry that we're interrupting you binge watching Ru Paul :P
    Or you can do two fast runs instead of one slow.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    Or you can do two fast runs instead of one slow.
    Which depend on DPS going all out, which will result in some over-aggroing and healing required... Like, whut?
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Which depend on DPS going all out, which will result in some over-aggroing and healing required... Like, whut?
    All that is required as dps is to not let your ADHD get the better of you.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashgaan View Post
    We used to call people that SS themselves as warlocks noobs.

    To all the locks reading this, in a dungeon, you ALWAYS put soulstone on the party member that can resurrect (NOT DRUIDS) - usually is the healer. In a good comp you can get away with soulstoning the tank.
    Pfft. Only if you're PuGing or raiding. But when doing dungeons with friends, sometimes I'd SS myself or another dps for everyone to chuckle at.

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