a note from tanks

[op3l]

I Usually write that in group b4 we start. I also mark targets and ask ppl to wait 3-5 sec before heavy aoe. It actually works!
I dont think DPS classes like agrro. If you get aggro you cant dps well and you will die soon.
Never had any issue when I explain things that people dont know.

My druid tank in TBC, I would always mark targets each pull. My num pad is bound to each marker so I can quickly mark targets. I would also say to them to follow kill order and 95% of the time it would be a smooth run. If they manage to pull aggro, I will try my best to get them back on me(usually a taunt + maul) but if they keep topping me, well... I let them die.

Usually after a few deaths, they either cuss me out and leave(ohhh k) or they learn to stop doing that cause I'll let them die.

[erifwodahs]

Sure. But Wrath and after never taught new players to manage threat because it wasn't a thing so those who started in those expansions come to Classic, where threat IS an issue and don't get it and don't really think about using the tools they have to manage it. Should they learn? Yes, and the good ones will. But a lot are still in the "Bad tank, can't hold aggro!" mindset from retail where a tank that loses aggro to a DPS pretty much *is* bad.

Thing is, starting in Wrath good DPS players were just those who did high DPS, period. Before, it was people who could see that a mob had aggroed onto the healer and could CC it, who knew to CC in combat that mob doing scattering shot or fears and who could do high DPS by going RIGHT TO the edge of pulling threat without doing so.

Note, I said good DPS - you're totally right that not all DPS did this even in vanilla. But it was a way to tell good players from bad. Hell good DPS might even come with health pots and bandages to use during a long boss fight in raids so that healers could conserve mana. But that, too, went away in Wrath when healer mana became basically infinite and DPS didn't have to worry about their own survival.

So we are basically talking the same language. Good dps in BfA or Legion has health potions, has prepots for even trash packs, knows what spells to interrupt and what/how to dodge things. There are so many "IdK wHY diD I diE" things mobs/bosses do but it's not random, casts, charges, cleaves, shields and so on. And you can easy tell who's a good player. These kind of players are post Wrath then, because instead of threat mechanics we got mobs who have several and we have dungeon trash packs which are built specifically synergy

[clevin]

So we are basically talking the same language. Good dps in BfA or Legion has health potions, has prepots for even trash packs, knows what spells to interrupt and what/how to dodge things. There are so many "IdK wHY diD I diE" things mobs/bosses do but it's not random, casts, charges, cleaves, shields and so on. And you can easy tell who's a good player. These kind of players are post Wrath then, because instead of threat mechanics we got mobs who have several and we have dungeon trash packs which are built specifically synergy

Pretty much, yeah. it's just that if someone started in wrath or later they never learned that threat mechanics were very difference in vanilla/TBC. That's not an excuse but an explanation. And it becomes a less good one the longer that Classic is out - it' sone thing to not know a mechanic early on. Continuing to ignore it is just being bad. So, yeah.

[feellucky]

Am I the only one that likes tanking pugs and doesn't mind dps that pull? When everyone follows along and focuses its fine and I have had many pugs that did this but I dont mind when they pull. Makes it more of a challenge. As a warrior it makes me stance dance and use more abilities. If people don't pull I'm usually just jumping and pooling rage for the next pull which is kinda boring.

People typically follow marks though, haven't had any issues with marking skulls for mobs that need to be focused. Well except this one boomkin that liked to attack whatever lol, but its never caused any wipes. Game is just too ez with 1.12 talents, fixes and gear. Its not even the same game as 2004-5.

[Shaetha]

Oh grow up. Some people, like me, moved from retail to classic. Some came back. Some are new. It DOESNT FUCKING MATTER and the whining about retail vs classic is tiresome.

Bullshit. You can't start out with an insult and then say it doesn't matter. You started this shit. If you don't want to deal with, don't bring it up.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

You're dealing with Wrath babies and later who never learned about threat management or any other what to play DPS aside from going balls to the wall on damage. In combat control (sheep, Kidney Shot...)? They dont get it. Threat dumps? Likewise.


It's not really their fault, it's the way the last 11+years of the game has trained them.

Soft CC (stuns/interrupts and any variations of those effect) have been FAR more important in the late expansions (CM in MoP/WoD, M+ since Legion) than it ever was before or is in Classic.

Hard CC as used in Classic and TBC back in the days (Sap/Poly/Trap) is extremely ineficcient and slows down your group massively. The only time it should ever be used is if your group simply can't complete the pack without it.

And yeah, you still want to go all out as a Dps in Classic in 99% of situations (while focusing the killtarget). If the Tank can't hold threat, he's most likely undergeared, wearing retarded gear with +defense and mitigation instead of proper tanking stats (aka stats for max threat), or he's just not pressing his buttons in the correct order. Most likely a cominbation of everything.

Yeah, there are retarded Dps who go max AoE and then try to kite mobs away from the Tank instead of just stacking on him and letting him taunt off them, but in the vast majority of situations, it's the Tank being incompetent that's the main cause of any aggro issues, not the Dps.

- - - Updated - - -

Standard operating procedure is to start slow and ramp up, using the 'focus target' feature and attacking the tank's target while tank maintains area aggro on the other mobs enough to keep them off the healer. Fury's tricky with aggro because their playstyle is very balls-out, but for example if you wait until the tank's target has three sunders on it, you should generally be ok on aggro, just be careful with Whirlwind and such.

- - - Updated - - -


Also a good point. Skull, X, Moon (for sheeping/other CC) goes far in helping group pulls go smoothly, so long as DPS coordinate on the tank's target to avoid grabbing hate. Like many other aspects of Classic, communication is key and people are having to relearn this (higher-skilled players have been able to zerg it but your average player isn't good enough for that).

Holding back is not "managing your threat", it's playing poorly to make up for an incompetent Tank. If the Tank knows what he's doing (and has gear that would realistically allow him to hold aggro), Dps will never pull aggro even when going all out.

This only changes when you get to full BWL BiS gear WITH full worldbuffs and consumables (because Dps scale better with consumables than Tanks). And good Tanks will go DW at this point, to be able to keep up with their Dps, making sure that their BiS geared Dps with full worldbuffs can STILL go all out in AQ and Naxx.

"Wait for 3 Sunders" became a meme to make fun of bad Tanks for a reason. If your Tanks can't keep up with Dps going all out from the start at current lvls of gear, the problem lies with the Tank(s), not the Dps who are doing their job properly.

[clevin]

Bullshit. You can't start out with an insult and then say it doesn't matter.

Your grasp of logic is... lacking.

You started this shit. If you don't want to deal with, don't bring it up.[/QUOTE]

I didn't start it. That's a reply. And it's accurate. People like the person I replied to always seem to want to pick at whether classic is does well or not and it's a dead topic. It's boring, it's annoying and it's been beaten to death.

[Thage]

Holding back is not "managing your threat", it's playing poorly to make up for an incompetent Tank. If the Tank knows what he's doing (and has gear that would realistically allow him to hold aggro), Dps will never pull aggro even when going all out.

This only changes when you get to full BWL BiS gear WITH full worldbuffs and consumables (because Dps scale better with consumables than Tanks). And good Tanks will go DW at this point, to be able to keep up with their Dps, making sure that their BiS geared Dps with full worldbuffs can STILL go all out in AQ and Naxx.

"Wait for 3 Sunders" became a meme to make fun of bad Tanks for a reason. If your Tanks can't keep up with Dps going all out from the start at current lvls of gear, the problem lies with the Tank(s), not the Dps who are doing their job properly.

Or, I mean, you can wait for a less-skilled tank to build up aggro rather than go nuts out from the word 'go,' and getting blown up when you draw aggro. Most people running BRD and Stratholme aren't gonna be raid-quality players, my guy, aggro is going to be an issue the first few seconds in a fight until they can get a handle on things. As far as I'm concerned, "Wait for 3 Sunders" is just a decent credo to live by in dungeon pugs, 'cause I'd rather wait 30 seconds in a fight to let things rip than spend 5 minutes running back from the nearest graveyard 'cause Joe Fury slammed his face into his keyboard as soon as Mike the Warrior drew hate.

[clevin]

Soft CC (stuns/interrupts and any variations of those effect) have been FAR more important in the late expansions (CM in MoP/WoD, M+ since Legion) than it ever was before or is in Classic.

Hard CC as used in Classic and TBC back in the days (Sap/Poly/Trap) is extremely ineficcient and slows down your group massively. The only time it should ever be used is if your group simply can't complete the pack without it.

Well duh. But in Classic and TBC you had packs like that if you were geared at the level meant for the instance. If you overgear it, then no. But we're not really talking about the latter case - everyone knows that if you massively overgear things many of the mechanics don't matter.

And yeah, you still want to go all out as a Dps in Classic in 99% of situations (while focusing the killtarget). If the Tank can't hold threat, he's most likely undergeared, wearing retarded gear with +defense and mitigation instead of proper tanking stats (aka stats for max threat), or he's just not pressing his buttons in the correct order. Most likely a cominbation of everything.

Sigh. Yeah, sure. But if the DPS *is* significantly better geared then you DON'T want to go all out and any decent player will figure this out vs mindlessly going all out.

Yeah, there are retarded Dps who go max AoE and then try to kite mobs away from the Tank instead of just stacking on him and letting him taunt off them, but in the vast majority of situations, it's the Tank being incompetent that's the main cause of any aggro issues, not the Dps.

And you just don't play classic much and didnt play TBC or before. 1) Pallies have no taunt, 2) it's easy to pull threat off a tank who's equally geared if you try, especially if you are DPSing a pack.

All of this is nitpicking though - the overall point is that threat IS a consideration in Classic as it was in TBC and Vanilla... and was NOT in Wrath or later.

[Shaetha]

Your grasp of logic is... lacking.

I didn't start it. That's a reply. And it's accurate. People like the person I replied to always seem to want to pick at whether classic is does well or not and it's a dead topic. It's boring, it's annoying and it's been beaten to death.

The OP made a request, and you mention wrath babies. That is considered an insult just as calling an adult a baby is considered an insult. You brought it up. You made when players started playing a point in the discussion. That was you. No one in the thread was saying that before you. You either are completely lacking in self-awareness, or you knew what you were doing and have a victim complex.

[parcus]

Well duh. But in Classic and TBC you had packs like that if you were geared at the level meant for the instance. If you overgear it, then no. But we're not really talking about the latter case - everyone knows that if you massively overgear things many of the mechanics don't matter.



Sigh. Yeah, sure. But if the DPS *is* significantly better geared then you DON'T want to go all out and any decent player will figure this out vs mindlessly going all out.



And you just don't play classic much and didnt play TBC or before. 1) Pallies have no taunt, 2) it's easy to pull threat off a tank who's equally geared if you try, especially if you are DPSing a pack.

All of this is nitpicking though - the overall point is that threat IS a consideration in Classic as it was in TBC and Vanilla... and was NOT in Wrath or later.

This is the reason why I'm stopping tanking for pugs now. You mark Target with a skull, the retard dps focus on another target, the hunter opens with a multishot. When any sort of accident happens they are unable to use their skills to save the group from a wipe. Another thing op didn't mention is that if mobs are not hitting you, you are not generating rage and therefore generating threat becomes even harder, heals have to waste more mana => Dungeon takes longer.

[Queendom]

-no one seems to know that every class has an aggro dump. i would speculate less then 10% of dps actually use them.

Warlocks didn't have one until TBC. But hey, there's always Searing Pain.