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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Well, as a system it's absolutly fine. But it has some serious flaws:
    1) "The groupfinder issue" or "summoning stone issue". It's REALLY annoying when your group is full and you want to port the last slackers to the dungeon but, o well, you can't because you are in WM and the other groupmember who flew to the dungeon is not. Similar problem with raidgroups. Maybe put all members of the group be in the mode of the groupleader when they enter the group. Or mark groups in the groupfinder as WM/non WM
    2) The fact, that you get higher PvE rewards if you enter WM. That's the elephant in the room: In WM you are not rewarded for doing PvP. Heck, you are even encouraged not to do PvP. Most people with WM on are not interested in PvP at all and just want higher rewards. In general it's more efficient to mind your own business and do your worldquests than to engange in a fight.There could be simple fixes:
    Remove the flat 10-30% buff you get on gold/rep/azerite.
    Reward players for killing other players with gold/rep/azerite. Think PvP expeditions, just in the open world. You get a stacking buff the longer you are active in WM (killing other players, finishing quests, etc..) and a player killing you gets a reward based on your buff. That way camping is discouraged, because you won't get rewards for killing someone over and over. Just one example you can take.

    WM should be for PvP and not a toggle for higher PvE rewards.
    I believe this to be a good idea for all the reasons stated.

    Warmode, Faction Assaults, and marked Assassins have all been the highlights of BfA for me personally. Alternative ways to gain Conquest while being active in the open world has been a huge boon to the game.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Well, as a system it's absolutly fine. But it has some serious flaws:
    1) "The groupfinder issue" or "summoning stone issue". It's REALLY annoying when your group is full and you want to port the last slackers to the dungeon but, o well, you can't because you are in WM and the other groupmember who flew to the dungeon is not. Similar problem with raidgroups. Maybe put all members of the group be in the mode of the groupleader when they enter the group. Or mark groups in the groupfinder as WM/non WM
    2) The fact, that you get higher PvE rewards if you enter WM. That's the elephant in the room: In WM you are not rewarded for doing PvP. Heck, you are even encouraged not to do PvP. Most people with WM on are not interested in PvP at all and just want higher rewards. In general it's more efficient to mind your own business and do your worldquests than to engange in a fight.There could be simple fixes:
    Remove the flat 10-30% buff you get on gold/rep/azerite.
    Reward players for killing other players with gold/rep/azerite. Think PvP expeditions, just in the open world. You get a stacking buff the longer you are active in WM (killing other players, finishing quests, etc..) and a player killing you gets a reward based on your buff. That way camping is discouraged, because you won't get rewards for killing someone over and over. Just one example you can take.

    WM should be for PvP and not a toggle for higher PvE rewards.
    This.

    Love warmode, but the rewards should either be PVP related; or rewards should come from PvPing not completing PvE content with your PvP flag on. There should be little to zero incentive for someone who can't stand PvP to turn War mode on.

    I would even take a page out of old AV. Make players lootable. When you look a player you collect some arbitrary stackable items that you can then turn into a PvP vendor for some kind of PvP currency to allow progression toward a piece of PvP gear. Use the same kind of scaling idea @LordVargK here suggests to discourage camping players to farm these items too. I'd feel a lot better if WM allowed me to collect a big bag of gnome spines and elf ears to turn in for X% toward a piece of pvp-specific gear than I do with a bit of extra Anima or Gold.
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  3. #183
    The sign that Warmode is flawed is that they had to jack up the rewards past reasonable levels to get people to do it.

    They will not remove WM explicitly, but if they greatly scale back the reward they will have de facto removed it.
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    It would have never had to happen in the first place if there was just no warmode reward. Players said it was a bad idea during beta.

    I also feel like Warmode wouldn't be considered as bad though if the players weren't scumbags about it. Groups camping flight paths or high frequency quest locations are honestly the largest problem with world PvP. It's even happening in Classic now because there are several flight paths that you can not be attacked by guards at. The reality is, world PvP has always had this problem, now its just adds incentives to the faction that has a disadvantage, which is the only way world PvP can go when the players are scumbags. At what point is the risk worth the reward, apparently for Alliance it's double the Horde reward, which is honestly fine.
    Ok, so here our opinions differ a lot, because:

    1. The problem would still exist even if there was no warmode reward, because the horde would still drastically outnumber the alliance but the overall participation would be waaaay lower (why bother with PVP if there is no reward?) I know YOU personally do not agree with this, many other people however do, and those people will not enable warmode and this does negatively affect the playing experience of players who do.

    2. You describe flight path camping and stuff like this as a problem that needs to be solved, but it really is not a problem. It even is the opposite: It annoys players so much, that they actually band together and organize counterganks to crush and "camp the campers". That is literally one of the best ways to start of group PVP fights in the open world. Yes, I understand it is VERY annoying to get killed right as you dismount on a flight path, but it is SUPPOSED to be annoying, so you feel forced to do something about it. Again, I am not defending campers, it sucks, but the RESULT from it is something good (if you like to PVP).

  5. #185
    My only hope with WM is that it becomes a weekly toggle. My experience is getting over run by huge raids of Ally on reset, they get their kills (the 25 and 10 quests) and then disappear for the week. Make it be on or off for the week, you chose but are locked into it.

  6. #186
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    I truly hope Warmode stays, cause I HATED playing on PvP realms but migrating was not an option, so to turn off world pvp without server change is fantastic!

    But I hope they also remove any and all bonuses for having it turned on. Let those who enjoy pvp use that mode, but don't punish us world pvp haters for not using it.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Exhuman View Post
    Do we know something about warmode in Shadowlands?

    Will the alliance recieve +30% bonus during the whole expansion again?
    Well they could always go back to a more "Classic" design for PvP, where there was no faction imbalance whatsoever. /s

    Face it, in modern WoW where a large percentage of the playerbase cannot even entertain the thought of playing the game for the aspect of fun, and need to min/max and quantify everything down to the most efficient drop - the community has decided that bandwagoning to the "PvP faction" in their pursuit of dominance is the preferred route. Thus in retail or Classic, you have one faction grossly outnumbering the other. Whether it's a game from 15 years ago or from today... the result of our freely made decisions stands.

    That said, in modern WoW you generally don't get farm camped as an Alliance and in my experience of being an War Mode always on Alliance player, I find that generally the amount of players present from both factions is pretty balanced. Showing up to the quests of a CoA or Tort emissary I usually find an equal number of people duking it out and am happy to join in the fray.

  8. #188
    I am rather curious what the War Mode population would be without the current rewards and benefits, as I have a sneaking suspicion that you'd see a huge drop in participation (especially from Alliance). However, the resulting population isn't necessarily the goal of War Mode, as I believe the goal was to remove being locked into PvE/PvP servers by offering a choice. But if Blizz was highly concerned about participation being so low or lop-sided that they needed to add a carrot, I think PvP-oriented rewards would've been better than XP/gold/AP gains... because as it has already been stated, you feel the need to have War Mode on else your holding yourself and/or your guild/raid back by being slow. Despite that "need," you technically don't have to benefit from those at all, we just convince ourselves that we do.

    Be that as it may, there's much larger issues at play when it comes to the intermingling of reward systems, and the consequences of such have trickled over into War Mode. I think the proposed Shadowland's change of the weekly cache rewards being tied to all PvE/PvP activities instead of being separated will go a long way towards encouraging people to participate in multiple facets of the game. Now, I hope Blizz avoids the pitfall of making players feel like they need to do all content in order to avoid terribly weekly loot. If anything, an 'either/or' system would likely work best, as in you can pick a PvE or PvP content, and instead of needing to do both to maximize your loot level/chances, you just need to do one activity of a certain difficulty.

    A common complaint I've seen is that M+ people tend to loathe having to do rated PvP to get a second loot chest in BfA, and rated PvP people loathe having to do M+ to also get a second loot chest. I think the issue is the same mentality as the War Mode reward system: Blizz is trying to entice you do try something different, but in the end most people feel like they're forced into doing it. I think it'd be much better to have doing a M+ 15 give you the same benefit as getting 2.4k rated, but you only need to do one as you don't get more power rewards for doing both. I know I personally used to like some aspects of PvP, but I got burnt out because it felt like a chore on top of all the PvE content I was doing because I "needed" to do PvP content to help with PvE.

    If anything, I think I'd support War Mode just being a toggle for PvP and that's it. If there are rewards, have it be for PvP-oriented content and rewards only. I'm not exactly sure how one could prevent extra power/progression gains needed for PvE to not be available in War Mode with an extra reward system, but I guess worst case you could just have unique War Mode transmog or items that can't work in instanced PvE. As a slight aside, I've always wanted a PvP reward system that was solely based on outdoor content versus instanced PvP content.
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    1. The problem would still exist even if there was no warmode reward, because the horde would still drastically outnumber the alliance but the overall participation would be waaaay lower (why bother with PVP if there is no reward?) I know YOU personally do not agree with this, many other people however do, and those people will not enable warmode and this does negatively affect the playing experience of players who do.
    Faction imbalance has always been a thing, PvP servers were perfectly fine with "no reward". So I'm not sure what you're complaining about.
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  10. #190
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Faction imbalance has always been a thing, PvP servers were perfectly fine with "no reward". So I'm not sure what you're complaining about.
    You can't “turn off PvP server”, so your character has to live with consequences of your choice. Those, who understood this simple, but, at the same time, very important condition, had characters on both types of servers and everything worked fine to them, but there're people... who believe, that whole world should revolve around their problems with neglecting own conditions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    you, as well as devs, continue to not understand what wPvP really is - it's unorganized, not specifically motivated, unpredictable process): so about WM - either there is incentive and this is BG, or there is no incentive and this is ghost town.

    = = = = simple proof from point of healthy game conditions = = = =
    since, from game's adequate technical side, in order to receive rewards (and nobody needs it without rewarding), you need to participate in more or less complication-balanced activity, activity with at least some complexity (matching rewards to "labor-time"), and it can't be organized in framework of current WM design (whole world toggle)... so it have to be BG (which is only working such one here, balance&rewards, but with commitment, no choice in participation, was built for mandatory fight activity) and PvP servers (which is about no balance&rewards, but about every minute freedom of choice) should be returned. Q.E.D.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    ps. Toggles are settings, but not choice, they have no permissions to change gameplay (any part of), which, however, is equally true for any “situationalautomation.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-11-29 at 10:24 AM.
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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Faction imbalance has always been a thing, PvP servers were perfectly fine with "no reward". So I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

    That is the misconception: PVP servers were NOT fine without rewards, hence the faction imbalance. If you want to PVP, you want people to participate (and Blizzard wants you to participate), because why have warmode / pvp servers, if people can not do PVP?

    Also Warmode has a whole other problem because people can just completely opt out. If you wanted to opt out on PVP servers you had to server transfer away, which was a big barrier for many people, so they decided to stay.
    However, if you want to keep warmode you have to do something about faction imbalance, because if you don't do it, at some point literally no alliance player will have it turned on and at that point why have it in the first place?

  12. #192
    Just roll alliance losers I really enjoy ganking horde and having my 30% buff

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    That is the misconception: PVP servers were NOT fine without rewards, hence the faction imbalance. If you want to PVP, you want people to participate (and Blizzard wants you to participate), because why have warmode / pvp servers, if people can not do PVP?

    Also Warmode has a whole other problem because people can just completely opt out. If you wanted to opt out on PVP servers you had to server transfer away, which was a big barrier for many people, so they decided to stay.
    However, if you want to keep warmode you have to do something about faction imbalance, because if you don't do it, at some point literally no alliance player will have it turned on and at that point why have it in the first place?
    There was always faction imbalance, in every aspect of the game. Servers, raiding, pvp, this was just reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
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  14. #194
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    There was always faction imbalance, in every aspect of the game. Servers, raiding, pvp, this was just reality.
    And how is this related to WM? There is balance for instances activity (BG/dungeon/raid - there is complexity and adequate reward for it), at least it should be, I understand that somehow stuff like LFR goes against normal design, and dungeons, by default, now drowned in deep bowels of fetid cesspools and M+ are only something relevant in complexity, but still also goes against normal design and lives only as result of wrong itemization organizing in general and their design in particular.

    PvP server is not WM, there were no rewards, you couldn't get out of it... WM must have balance in order to justify rewards system, otherwise it turns into a freebie, but since they aren't able to balance WM within its design, it means design itself is bad. On the other hand, they already have way in game to balance this - organize it even in a piecewise form, but as BG (in fact, WM itself is fail, because I can’t even imagine how to contrive in order to turn it into BG = i.e. it's inedible by definition), with bursts and in confined spaces, with a “deserter debuff” in case of leaving and corresponding rewards. But I repeat once again: this is not "PvP server", WM doesn't (can't) replace PvP server in any way, since it's organized on other conditions, which implies that PvP server needs to be returned for normal live wPvP (but this is only 1 of required components, since PvP in general additionally requires separate system of characteristics/progress and so on - these all are also separate problems).

    Once again: If there are no rewards, then there's free choice, but in case of WM no one goes there (since it's not locked and is only for PvP activity = still no choice for it), if there are rewards (PvP/PvE doesn't important), then for their justification balance is required, but this can't be done in such design (doesn't have instance's rules) = paradox = system fails.
    - - -
    theoretically, balance problem for such situation could be solved by removing fractions, turning entire mode conditionally into death-match, but this still won't return PvP servers to those who like free choice and will certainly provoke additional bugs/exploits within proposed system, there are too many "if" for people to resist such enticement, therefore, I doubt very much, that devs will go for it
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-11-29 at 10:37 PM.
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  15. #195
    Theres a few things they need to do: Remove rewards from having WM on.

    Then they could just add in pvp related achivs/titles or whatever instead. Something that does not reward players with gear,currency, AP or whatever that is part of the gearing progress.

  16. #196
    I consider it a resounding success. As someone who never really pvp’ed even though I was on pvp servers for 13 years, I was initially thrilled with having the ability to turn it off without ya omg to transfer off. Ironically, it was the ability to turn it on and get a few extra abilities that made me turn it on and to this point, leave it on.

    I now actively search out pvp and it’s events. I hope they keep it.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    And how is this related to WM?
    As I stated before, before there was no WM, only PvP servers. It was an active choice to be on whatever server you wanted to be on and you weren't rewarded for it. There shouldn't be a reward for Warmode, bottom line.
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  18. #198
    The Lightbringer
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    Horde mad that in one region, they don't get the free bonus and Alliance does. Their solution isn't to give the Horde a free bonus but to remove it for the Alliance in that area. They will then insist that they bonus isn't the problem. Typical Horde crybabies as usual.
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  19. #199
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    As I stated before, before there was no WM, only PvP servers. It was an active choice to be on whatever server you wanted to be on and you weren't rewarded for it. There shouldn't be a reward for Warmode, bottom line.
    Then, as I said, no one will go there... well, almost no one, what will deprive any meaning of its existence.

    I’d like that scenario very much, no doubt, it’s very good and cheerful with almost guaranteed following-up cutting it out *smiles maliciously looking at Ashran* ... but, I'm afraid, this is probably something, that won't fit devs
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Then, as I said, no one will go there... well, almost no one, what will deprive any meaning of its existence.

    I’d like that scenario very much, no doubt, it’s very good and cheerful with almost guaranteed following-up cutting it out *smiles maliciously looking at Ashran* ... but, I'm afraid, this is probably something, that won't fit devs
    I really don't care either way tbh. Reward or not, I'm just saying it worked with no incentives and it works currently with incentives(although Horde are crybabies after camping Alliance for months while it became a one faction feature). If there are going to be incentives, then it needs to offer the incentive the faction that has less players otherwise the overwhelming faction will just dominate and the opposite faction will just disappear from the feature. With how it is now there's obviously a fairly even spread of the factions even though its 10% vs 25%(this week anyway normally lately it's 20%). Now are there too many rewards is the question, personally I think the increase in % is enough, I don't think the quest for gear/conquest/extra AP is needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
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