The Failure Warmode is going into Shadowlands?

[exochaft]

I am rather curious what the War Mode population would be without the current rewards and benefits, as I have a sneaking suspicion that you'd see a huge drop in participation (especially from Alliance). However, the resulting population isn't necessarily the goal of War Mode, as I believe the goal was to remove being locked into PvE/PvP servers by offering a choice. But if Blizz was highly concerned about participation being so low or lop-sided that they needed to add a carrot, I think PvP-oriented rewards would've been better than XP/gold/AP gains... because as it has already been stated, you feel the need to have War Mode on else your holding yourself and/or your guild/raid back by being slow. Despite that "need," you technically don't have to benefit from those at all, we just convince ourselves that we do.

Be that as it may, there's much larger issues at play when it comes to the intermingling of reward systems, and the consequences of such have trickled over into War Mode. I think the proposed Shadowland's change of the weekly cache rewards being tied to all PvE/PvP activities instead of being separated will go a long way towards encouraging people to participate in multiple facets of the game. Now, I hope Blizz avoids the pitfall of making players feel like they need to do all content in order to avoid terribly weekly loot. If anything, an 'either/or' system would likely work best, as in you can pick a PvE or PvP content, and instead of needing to do both to maximize your loot level/chances, you just need to do one activity of a certain difficulty.

A common complaint I've seen is that M+ people tend to loathe having to do rated PvP to get a second loot chest in BfA, and rated PvP people loathe having to do M+ to also get a second loot chest. I think the issue is the same mentality as the War Mode reward system: Blizz is trying to entice you do try something different, but in the end most people feel like they're forced into doing it. I think it'd be much better to have doing a M+ 15 give you the same benefit as getting 2.4k rated, but you only need to do one as you don't get more power rewards for doing both. I know I personally used to like some aspects of PvP, but I got burnt out because it felt like a chore on top of all the PvE content I was doing because I "needed" to do PvP content to help with PvE.

If anything, I think I'd support War Mode just being a toggle for PvP and that's it. If there are rewards, have it be for PvP-oriented content and rewards only. I'm not exactly sure how one could prevent extra power/progression gains needed for PvE to not be available in War Mode with an extra reward system, but I guess worst case you could just have unique War Mode transmog or items that can't work in instanced PvE. As a slight aside, I've always wanted a PvP reward system that was solely based on outdoor content versus instanced PvP content.

[Zyky]

1. The problem would still exist even if there was no warmode reward, because the horde would still drastically outnumber the alliance but the overall participation would be waaaay lower (why bother with PVP if there is no reward?) I know YOU personally do not agree with this, many other people however do, and those people will not enable warmode and this does negatively affect the playing experience of players who do.

Faction imbalance has always been a thing, PvP servers were perfectly fine with "no reward". So I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

[Alkizon]

Faction imbalance has always been a thing, PvP servers were perfectly fine with "no reward". So I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

You can't “turn off PvP server”, so your character has to live with consequences of your choice. Those, who understood this simple, but, at the same time, very important condition, had characters on both types of servers and everything worked fine to them, but there're people... who believe, that whole world should revolve around their problems with neglecting own conditions.

you, as well as devs, continue to not understand what wPvP really is - it's unorganized, not specifically motivated, unpredictable process): so about WM - either there is incentive and this is BG, or there is no incentive and this is ghost town.

= = = = simple proof from point of healthy game conditions = = = =
since, from game's adequate technical side, in order to receive rewards (and nobody needs it without rewarding), you need to participate in more or less complication-balanced activity, activity with at least some complexity (matching rewards to "labor-time"), and it can't be organized in framework of current WM design (whole world toggle)... so it have to be BG (which is only working such one here, balance&rewards, but with commitment, no choice in participation, was built for mandatory fight activity) and PvP servers (which is about no balance&rewards, but about every minute freedom of choice) should be returned. Q.E.D.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

ps. Toggles are settings, but not choice, they have no permissions to change gameplay (any part of), which, however, is equally true for any “situational” automation.

[Accendor]

Faction imbalance has always been a thing, PvP servers were perfectly fine with "no reward". So I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

That is the misconception: PVP servers were NOT fine without rewards, hence the faction imbalance. If you want to PVP, you want people to participate (and Blizzard wants you to participate), because why have warmode / pvp servers, if people can not do PVP?

Also Warmode has a whole other problem because people can just completely opt out. If you wanted to opt out on PVP servers you had to server transfer away, which was a big barrier for many people, so they decided to stay.
However, if you want to keep warmode you have to do something about faction imbalance, because if you don't do it, at some point literally no alliance player will have it turned on and at that point why have it in the first place?

[Katie45]

Just roll alliance losers I really enjoy ganking horde and having my 30% buff

[Zyky]

That is the misconception: PVP servers were NOT fine without rewards, hence the faction imbalance. If you want to PVP, you want people to participate (and Blizzard wants you to participate), because why have warmode / pvp servers, if people can not do PVP?

Also Warmode has a whole other problem because people can just completely opt out. If you wanted to opt out on PVP servers you had to server transfer away, which was a big barrier for many people, so they decided to stay.
However, if you want to keep warmode you have to do something about faction imbalance, because if you don't do it, at some point literally no alliance player will have it turned on and at that point why have it in the first place?

There was always faction imbalance, in every aspect of the game. Servers, raiding, pvp, this was just reality.

[Alkizon]

There was always faction imbalance, in every aspect of the game. Servers, raiding, pvp, this was just reality.

And how is this related to WM? There is balance for instances activity (BG/dungeon/raid - there is complexity and adequate reward for it), at least it should be, I understand that somehow stuff like LFR goes against normal design, and dungeons, by default, now drowned in deep bowels of fetid cesspools and M+ are only something relevant in complexity, but still also goes against normal design and lives only as result of wrong itemization organizing in general and their design in particular.

PvP server is not WM, there were no rewards, you couldn't get out of it... WM must have balance in order to justify rewards system, otherwise it turns into a freebie, but since they aren't able to balance WM within its design, it means design itself is bad. On the other hand, they already have way in game to balance this - organize it even in a piecewise form, but as BG (in fact, WM itself is fail, because I can’t even imagine how to contrive in order to turn it into BG = i.e. it's inedible by definition), with bursts and in confined spaces, with a “deserter debuff” in case of leaving and corresponding rewards. But I repeat once again: this is not "PvP server", WM doesn't (can't) replace PvP server in any way, since it's organized on other conditions, which implies that PvP server needs to be returned for normal live wPvP (but this is only 1 of required components, since PvP in general additionally requires separate system of characteristics/progress and so on - these all are also separate problems).

Once again: If there are no rewards, then there's free choice, but in case of WM no one goes there (since it's not locked and is only for PvP activity = still no choice for it), if there are rewards (PvP/PvE doesn't important), then for their justification balance is required, but this can't be done in such design (doesn't have instance's rules) = paradox = system fails.
- - -
theoretically, balance problem for such situation could be solved by removing fractions, turning entire mode conditionally into death-match, but this still won't return PvP servers to those who like free choice and will certainly provoke additional bugs/exploits within proposed system, there are too many "if" for people to resist such enticement, therefore, I doubt very much, that devs will go for it

[crusadernero]

Theres a few things they need to do: Remove rewards from having WM on.

Then they could just add in pvp related achivs/titles or whatever instead. Something that does not reward players with gear,currency, AP or whatever that is part of the gearing progress.

[Cyi]

I consider it a resounding success. As someone who never really pvp’ed even though I was on pvp servers for 13 years, I was initially thrilled with having the ability to turn it off without ya omg to transfer off. Ironically, it was the ability to turn it on and get a few extra abilities that made me turn it on and to this point, leave it on.

I now actively search out pvp and it’s events. I hope they keep it.

[Zyky]

And how is this related to WM?

As I stated before, before there was no WM, only PvP servers. It was an active choice to be on whatever server you wanted to be on and you weren't rewarded for it. There shouldn't be a reward for Warmode, bottom line.

[PaladinBash]

Horde mad that in one region, they don't get the free bonus and Alliance does. Their solution isn't to give the Horde a free bonus but to remove it for the Alliance in that area. They will then insist that they bonus isn't the problem. Typical Horde crybabies as usual.

[Alkizon]

As I stated before, before there was no WM, only PvP servers. It was an active choice to be on whatever server you wanted to be on and you weren't rewarded for it. There shouldn't be a reward for Warmode, bottom line.

Then, as I said, no one will go there... well, almost no one, what will deprive any meaning of its existence.

I’d like that scenario very much, no doubt, it’s very good and cheerful with almost guaranteed following-up cutting it out *smiles maliciously looking at Ashran* ... but, I'm afraid, this is probably something, that won't fit devs

[Zyky]

Then, as I said, no one will go there... well, almost no one, what will deprive any meaning of its existence.

I’d like that scenario very much, no doubt, it’s very good and cheerful with almost guaranteed following-up cutting it out *smiles maliciously looking at Ashran* ... but, I'm afraid, this is probably something, that won't fit devs

I really don't care either way tbh. Reward or not, I'm just saying it worked with no incentives and it works currently with incentives(although Horde are crybabies after camping Alliance for months while it became a one faction feature). If there are going to be incentives, then it needs to offer the incentive the faction that has less players otherwise the overwhelming faction will just dominate and the opposite faction will just disappear from the feature. With how it is now there's obviously a fairly even spread of the factions even though its 10% vs 25%(this week anyway normally lately it's 20%). Now are there too many rewards is the question, personally I think the increase in % is enough, I don't think the quest for gear/conquest/extra AP is needed.

[munkeyinorbit]

I'm going to try turning off WM but manually flagging myself in shadowlands. Should make PvP a little more natural, but it doesn't help against lopsided shards.

So you're going to turn Wm off and then turn it on again. There is no way to manually flag yourself without going to your capital and manually turning Wm on. I hope youre other faction to me so I can destroy you. I'm pretty useless PvP but I destroy noobs.

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I even wish they'd added WM to classic.

Since not having WM really only helps the gankers.

If you didn't want to get ganked then why are you in PvP server?
Of course, your friends are there or the best players are there.
You made your decision, shut your mouth.

[Big Thanks]

Then, as I said, no one will go there... well, almost no one, what will deprive any meaning of its existence.

I’d like that scenario very much, no doubt, it’s very good and cheerful with almost guaranteed following-up cutting it out *smiles maliciously looking at Ashran* ... but, I'm afraid, this is probably something, that won't fit devs

I agree.
Without any benefits to enable Warmode it will end up empty.

Thats the reality of making "World PvP" a toggle option.

We (world pvp'ers) need fresh meat and prey to hunt on this mode.

Blizzard delivered us fresh meat via reward bribe i can only thank Blizzard for it.

[Uselessrouge]

they cant balance factions so not its never going away... until they understand that factions are crap and a outdated system

[munkeyinorbit]

What a laughably bullshit statement to make.

Warmode is the most unbalanced piece of shit out there. Why? Because Blizzards "modern technology" Sharding is absolutely fucking garbage.

Try to do 15v15. Fucking lagfest.

Here is an example of the sub 75 IQ .Doesn't bother reading post, just goes into full attack mode

For warmode, it is the most balanced piece of shit. The reason is that it is purely optional. You are not forced into PvP situations unless you choose to. In the old days you may hate world PvP but if your friends were there then you were forced into it.

Now if you are getting ganked then you can turn it off. Any complaints about WM now are just beyond stupid.

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I kinda like those proposals actually. Sound like needed changes

Might as well get rid of WM. I'm not against getting rid of it, I only use it for the buffs, but it cannot be balanced without incentives. Unless....
.
You can only enter warmode if there are allocated slots. What this means is that you can only join a wm if there open slots.
E.g.
If pop is 1 to 1 then 1 of either faction can go Wm. This produces n v n+1 situation.
Let's say horde is n+1. Horde cannot enter Wm untill an alliance jumps in to make it n v n again.
What if a whole bunch of people join up in a raid crossrealm? That realm is 40 v 2. Oh no. Unbalanced. That opens up 38 slots (+ maybe one more). This is filled by the Wm queue. Problem solved.

Then do away with rewards.

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Warmode has been a success in my opinion in that it allows players (like me) to be on a server with friends who chose to go into a pvp realm even though I myself do not enjoy it. Now they can essentially be on a pvp realm and I pve yet still be able to give each other stuff such as gold and crafted items without hating the experience of being on a server type one doesn't care for.

Personally I don't like the Wm.

I liked being in on an unbalanced server. In the old days a 2 to 1 unfavorable server was awesome. Always danger, sometimes you just got rolled by a 5 man but it was acceptable. There was room to gank without being overwhelmed constantly. Then they made PvP servers able to have both factions and it was over. Great move by blizzard to up the revenue but it destroyed most PvP servers. Where there was slight unbalance turned into big imbalance. It forced a server change from me be guild to a favourable server. Not as awesome as the old days but still allowed PvP on my terms. It was great.

But with wm, it is great for people who were "forced" onto PvP servers to opt out. I hail that as blizzards admission that opening up servers to transfers as wrong but at least it makes PvP optional.

I don't like it because I liked being an a positive unbalanced server where the old "I want to attack someone without being attacked" mantra was alive. But wm is far from a failure.

- - - Updated - - -

Warmode has been a success in my opinion in that it allows players (like me) to be on a server with friends who chose to go into a pvp realm even though I myself do not enjoy it. Now they can essentially be on a pvp realm and I pve yet still be able to give each other stuff such as gold and crafted items without hating the experience of being on a server type one doesn't care for.

Personally I don't like the Wm.

I liked being in on an unbalanced server. In the old days a 2 to 1 unfavorable server was awesome. Always danger, sometimes you just got rolled by a 5 man but it was acceptable. There was room to gank without being overwhelmed constantly. Then they made PvP servers able to have both factions and it was over. Great move by blizzard to up the revenue but it destroyed most PvP servers. Where there was slight unbalance turned into big imbalance. It forced a server change from me be guild to a favourable server. Not as awesome as the old days but still allowed PvP on my terms. It was great.

But with wm, it is great for people who were "forced" onto PvP servers to opt out. I hail that as blizzards admission that opening up servers to transfers as wrong but at least it makes PvP optional.

I don't like it because I liked being an a positive unbalanced server where the old "I want to attack someone without being attacked" mantra was alive. But wm is far from a failure.

- - - Updated - - -

Warmode has been a success in my opinion in that it allows players (like me) to be on a server with friends who chose to go into a pvp realm even though I myself do not enjoy it. Now they can essentially be on a pvp realm and I pve yet still be able to give each other stuff such as gold and crafted items without hating the experience of being on a server type one doesn't care for.

Personally I don't like the Wm.

I liked being in on an unbalanced server. In the old days a 2 to 1 unfavorable server was awesome. Always danger, sometimes you just got rolled by a 5 man but it was acceptable. There was room to gank without being overwhelmed constantly. Then they made PvP servers able to have both factions and it was over. Great move by blizzard to up the revenue but it destroyed most PvP servers. Where there was slight unbalance turned into big imbalance. It forced a server change from me be guild to a favourable server. Not as awesome as the old days but still allowed PvP on my terms. It was great.

But with wm, it is great for people who were "forced" onto PvP servers to opt out. I hail that as blizzards admission that opening up servers to transfers as wrong but at least it makes PvP optional.

I don't like it because I liked being an a positive unbalanced server where the old "I want to attack someone without being attacked" mantra was alive. But wm is far from a failure.

[rhorle]

So you're going to turn Wm off and then turn it on again. There is no way to manually flag yourself without going to your capital and manually turning Wm on. I hope youre other faction to me so I can destroy you. I'm pretty useless PvP but I destroy noobs.

Just type "/pvp". Most if not all of the other ways still flag you for PvP.

[maccajoe]

Try playing on Oceania Horde where Alliance get the 30% buff yet Oceania is tilted heavily to Alliance not Horde like it is on NA or EU.

[Kallisto]

Pro tip: move to an Alliance-favoured server with a high overall population. Then the Alliance do get a free 30% bonus!

Why they made it game-wide and not realm-wide is beyond me. Even with some sharding, on Alliance-favoured realms, there's not nearly enough Horde to justify having any bonus at all!

Only us server that works on is Moon guard as rp realms are closed off entirely from others (including other rp realms). All other realms are linked up.