Good News! No More Infinite AP Grind in 8.3

[Zyky]

Yes the grind is technically still there

The major driving factor is not

"2ilvl is super powerful" once you get to the point where it's 200k AP for the trait I don't think people will do it

People said the same thing about Concordance, yet there were thousands of players who were 75+ in Concordance before Blizzard started handing out the points.

[SirCowdog]

Move the "infinite" grind back to AP, but make AP account wide maybe?

Not sure if that would really solve the "infinite" problem. But it would remove the disincentive from playing alts at least.

[Velerios]

This corruption system will be a real mess.

BfA is coming at full force for WoD place on the ranks.

Now it's just you ranting and BfA. And yes, BfA is already far worse than WoD: WoD was bad because it had no content; but classes were still somehow playable. (and Warrior had Gladiator Stance; alone this makes WoD better than BfA). BfA is bad because they decide to revamp classes only in the next xpack, so they are simply unplayable now.

Still: corrupted gear is untied from the AP-Grind, and after you reach the softcap on AP, it doesn't matter anymore; nobody need to grind the heck out to get every ap possible, having them naturally from things you do is enough. Because they don't matter. And how much mess corrupted gear will be; that's i want to see. BUT:

You can remove all corrupted things on gear, that's at least to opt-out if you have too much corruption: you don't need to grind ap to get these azerite-traits, to get new slots and so on. You don't get the bonus anymore, but you are also having no mali on it.

It's a really good decision, and making BfA better. It's still bad, and as long as classes are in this stat, they can make BfA as good as they want, it will still be bad to play.

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It really is. Just because you're trying to now change your stance to "at least its not both" after being proven wrong, doesn't mean that 2 ils worth of essence increase isn't overly strong.

No it isn't. Sorry, but really, it isn't. 2 ilvl are simply not worth the hassle, especially when artefact knowledge caps again (and they will not turn it on after this), so the time you invest is simply not worth it. 2 ilvl on a minor slot like the necklace are not worth it, period. And no, it isn't overly strong, it's not even strong. It's mediocre at best having 2 ilvl more. Only the mass of levels make it so much stronger, but the invidual isn't: And you get naturally AP. But beside of this is nobody no longer forced to grind specifically AP.

The issue of AP was NEVER the increase of the 2 ilvl, the issue was always to reach the caps: first it was the azerite traits, second it was the essence slots and yes, the 3% more stamina too; it's a percentual increase; but 2 ilvl that gives you static x points more are no issue; it's simply not worth it.

[Nosgoth]

Yes it is, some grind that doesn't matter. But for the people who like this system, it's a good thing.

If it was a grind that didn't matter, people wouldn't do it in the first place.

And there is nothing to like about it. Do you need Blizzard telling you to grind some resource they just made up, just so you have an excuse to do the content? Why don't you just do the content if it's what you wanna do? Why not just do a dungeon or a world quest for the fun of it?

If you need Blizzard to invent some bullshit resource just so that you have a reason to do certain content, which you would not do without that resource, then that means the activity isn't actually fun in and of itself. So you don't actually find it fun enough to do it.

[Velerios]

Learn to read, they are removing the infinite grind on the NECK but adding an infinite grind on the CLOAK.

No they don't. You don't need infinite corruption resistance, you need a lot, but not infinite. And having a goal, having an advantage to grind this stuff rather than having to grind mindlessly ap while you chase the next level when you have it so much easier next week, and then next week and so on is completely different. GRIND was ALWAYS THE CASE OF WOW. Grind exist also in classic; even more than here. But here you can have an advantage, here you can have a goal, and you are not trying to get every source of ap you can get; you grind this stuff and that's all folks.

AP is a bad system and it's not compareable to the new corruption resistance items for the cloak.

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If it was a grind that didn't matter, people wouldn't do it in the first place.

Sorry but you are so wrong: Do you know how many people do try to get their bloodsail buccaneer-reputation to revered just for an hat? The hat simply doesn't matter, but it's presige for them. As here, the ilvl on the necklace really doesn't matter. People do simply different things, even unlogical one, simply because they can do it.

Another example: think of Doubleagent: ever expansion he grinds his way up in the Pandaren starting zone; something that simply doesn't matter at all. But he's still grinding this stuff.

So yes, some people like grinding stuff that doesn't matter, simply because they can.

But for the progression it simply doesn't matter.

[Zyky]

No it isn't. Sorry, but really, it isn't. 2 ilvl are simply not worth the hassle, especially when artefact knowledge caps again (and they will not turn it on after this), so the time you invest is simply not worth it. 2 ilvl on a minor slot like the necklace are not worth it, period. And no, it isn't overly strong, it's not even strong. It's mediocre at best having 2 ilvl more. Only the mass of levels make it so much stronger, but the invidual isn't: And you get naturally AP. But beside of this is nobody no longer forced to grind specifically AP.

The issue of AP was NEVER the increase of the 2 ilvl, the issue was always to reach the caps: first it was the azerite traits, second it was the essence slots and yes, the 3% more stamina too; it's a percentual increase; but 2 ilvl that gives you static x points more are no issue; it's simply not worth it.

Are you actually that dense? The best example is the Vision minor which is increased .3% every neck level. That's a huge increase, the reality is that you refuse to acknowledge it. It is strong, that's the bottom line fact.

[Evaddon]

I definitely hope so!

[Sondrelk]

Move the "infinite" grind back to AP, but make AP account wide maybe?

Not sure if that would really solve the "infinite" problem. But it would remove the disincentive from playing alts at least.

Making AP account wide would certainly incentivize alts, in fact it might incentivize it too much.
AP at the moment works on the system of diminishing returns, each day you get an easy allotment, same with every week.
If Blizzard made it so this is farmable account wide then the ideal setup would be 49 alts doing the weekly island quest and all the AP emissaries, which then leaves Blizzard with a conondrum, do they balance around players having several alts all of whom are farming, making the grind unbearable for players with only a main, or do they balance around a single character and watch the dedicated Bleeding edge players instantly max out their artifact.

Sure, you could make it so you could only farm up a single characters worth each week or whatever, or even make the quests themselves account wide, but that has its own set of problems.


Honor worked as an account wide grind because there were no power gains from farming a high amount, only prestige. And even then there is not that much more effective to farm the weekly quests on 50 alts as it is to farm BGs on a single character.

[Velerios]

Are you actually that dense? The best example is the Vision minor which is increased .3% every neck level. That's a huge increase, the reality is that you refuse to acknowledge it. It is strong, that's the bottom line fact.

If this would really matter, why does mythic raiders have not their neckpieces on cap: because it simply doesn't matter. 0.3% does not matter when you reach a point where you need to grind so much ap, that you could do x things that increase your damage by a huge amount. Also i would not be surprised if this essence will get hit with the nerf-coil in the next patch.

But even if it stays unnerfed, it still doesn't matter: you still get naturally ap, and you still will level up your necklace, but running behind every ap-source is no longer necessary compared to the corruption-resistance. Because as said again and again: it doesn't matter. And you will reach a cap where it's not worth it, 0.3% more or less. It simply doesn't matter.

[Zyky]

Move the "infinite" grind back to AP, but make AP account wide maybe?

Not sure if that would really solve the "infinite" problem. But it would remove the disincentive from playing alts at least.

The problem they tried to correct with character progression grinds like this is so people can't use alts freely during the world first race or to class stack specific encounters without investing a ton of extra time. While it does work for situations like that, it doesn't work for 95% of the playerbase who just wants to enjoy an alt, but feels that his time is being wasted if it's content not done on his main.

[zlygork]

I never grinded it and I am almost done with lvl 69 lol. Maybe you should just try enjoying more the game if youre not top 1%

[Velerios]

The problem they tried to correct with character progression grinds like this is so people can't use alts freely during the world first race or to class stack specific encounters without investing a ton of extra time. While it does work for situations like that, it doesn't work for 95% of the playerbase who just wants to enjoy an alt, but feels that his time is being wasted if it's content not done on his main.

Yes, this is definitively an issue blizzard needs to face in the next expansion: The good thing is: Next xpack blizzard really helps the leveling-experience by changing the leveling-system in a good way. I think that this alone makes Shadowlands much more alt-friendly than anything we had in the last 2 xpacks. And if they don't talk bullshit, Anima Power only requires a soft-cap for power progression as were Valor points; but there is still a way tro grind endlessly for customizations whitch as ap after 85 in 8.3 simply doesn't matter. Soulbinds seems to depend on items like Artefact-Relicts, and you should have a more horizontal progression (althrough i'm sure it will be more diagonal, but at least it's a step in the right direction)

So yes, BfA is probably the most alt-unfriendliest expansion ever, especially with the low amount of gold we get. Professions are completely dead in BfA, so also all ways to earn some money.
At least in earlier expansions sometimes a professions made you earn some gold, this time except alchemy there's nothing. Hopefully blizzard finally gets their things together, make professions useful again and allow us to make some money through it; this ist the most alt-friendliest thing they can do.

[Revamp Man]

People said the same thing about Concordance, yet there were thousands of players who were 75+ in Concordance before Blizzard started handing out the points.

That's because
1. Concordance was a proc and rather powerful compared to a 2ilvl increase
2. AP came from literally everything you did instead of 90% being in 1 form of content

With the corruption resistance moved to the cloak it means that it is similar to valor capping where you have a limited amount of resistance per week that you can get on your alts quickly

[Protean]

They have OCD, thats all, you can find a ton of 9/9M raiders who still dont have their neck on 70, maybe not even 67.

Granted I'm only 8/9 but my neck is only 65. You don't kill the boss just by having a few ilvls extra on your neck. You get the kill through coordination and mechanics.

The problem they tried to correct with character progression grinds like this is so people can't use alts freely during the world first race or to class stack specific encounters without investing a ton of extra time. While it does work for situations like that, it doesn't work for 95% of the playerbase who just wants to enjoy an alt, but feels that his time is being wasted if it's content not done on his main.

This is exactly why I refuse the AP grind. Every time I log in and don't play my main, i get a sour taste in my mouth at how i'm wasting my time. It seeps into the time I do spend on my main and makes me resentful. End up usually just AFKing in a city until I log out to play something fun.

[Velerios]

I never grinded it and I am almost done with lvl 69 lol. Maybe you should just try enjoying more the game if youre not top 1%

The issue are not the Top 1%, because as mentioned above: they also don't grind their Artefacts outside the thing they need to have, like having all minor slots open. They don't care about the 2 ilvl they get right now at all.

Because compared to real power progression this doesn't matter. The problems are people here in the forums who thinks that if not everyone is top on the ap-grindfest they are bad players and it's their fault their guild didn't managed to kill the boss, because of the 0.3%+few stat points on the necklace. They just rage for the sake of raging, not because it's actually an issue, because it isn't.

[Velerios]

Islands and WQs are the dumbest, easiest content this game has to offer. LMFAO.

Absolutely nothing against it. WQs are bad design; i rather have a daily-hub with dailys in every zone than doing world quests. Especially since normal quests always rewards you gold; and no talking heads everywhere that seems to talk with you when you fly over some zone... pah.

And Islands are crap, nothing else to say here. Nothing against some easy content; but it's simply bad.

And yes, as said before: it's good they removed the corruption-resistance from AP; no need to grind endless hours for it, now you have a fixed goal, and much much better for alts too. And you never feel: nah, today it would be stupid to grind ap, when i can do it tomorrow i'm much more efficient. AP is bad, and here you at least can get some kind of advantage, not trying to outrun the azerite knowledge train.

[themaster24]

The issue are not the Top 1%, because as mentioned above: they also don't grind their Artefacts outside the thing they need to have, like having all minor slots open. They don't care about the 2 ilvl they get right now at all.

Because compared to real power progression this doesn't matter. The problems are people here in the forums who thinks that if not everyone is top on the ap-grindfest they are bad players and it's their fault their guild didn't managed to kill the boss, because of the 0.3%+few stat points on the necklace. They just rage for the sake of raging, not because it's actually an issue, because it isn't.

It's a bit of a weird situation. Infinite levels are nice, to a degree, because you can still continue to achieve something. On the flip side, it easily can feel annoying, and the levels you get feel meaningless level to level, and hold most of the power when you look at the larger scope. The difference between 80 and 81 is small, but the difference between 80 and 100 can be quite impactful. I suspect this is going to come down to how reasonable it will be to achieve the higher levels. If they put a steep wall up at say, 85 (such as 5-6x the previous level), then I'd say this likely won't be an issue, as it would essentially soft cap HoA levels to a certain point, with the exception of the rare few who bleed AP sources dry.

It's definitely a better situation than having the corruption tied to it, making you feel definitely forced to continue grinding levels until you have a perfect amount of resistance, but I still feel kind of eh about it. I'd rather they Cap power at say, 85, and then allow future AP to go towards other things. It could become a currency that can be used to buy Rep/AP/Essence Tokens for your alts, or cosmetic rewards, pets, toys, etc. It would allow AP to stay relevant for many people, without it having any power whatsoever tied to it.

My other concern is how frequently you can upgrade the cloak. If you can only upgrade it once per week, meaning you either get your upgrade from Visions or Raiding, but not both, then it might not be that bad. Otherwise, if you can collect multiple per week, it's going to be another stress point for a lot of players, at least until they get enough resistance. That's another piece of information we don't have yet, either. We don't know how many of these cloak upgrades we'll need to have the "max" corruption.

[Zyky]

That's because
1. Concordance was a proc and rather powerful compared to a 2ilvl increase
2. AP came from literally everything you did instead of 90% being in 1 form of content

With the corruption resistance moved to the cloak it means that it is similar to valor capping where you have a limited amount of resistance per week that you can get on your alts quickly

As I've explained numerous times in this thread already: A 2 item level increase is more than a small amount of stats. It's also a huge increase to Azerite Essences because they scaled based off the level of your neck.

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This is exactly why I refuse the AP grind. Every time I log in and don't play my main, i get a sour taste in my mouth at how i'm wasting my time. It seeps into the time I do spend on my main and makes me resentful. End up usually just AFKing in a city until I log out to play something fun.

It's the problem with development in general(with raiding specifically). They design Mythic encounters way too hard for the average Mythic raider to do, then heavily gut the encounter months later. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to say fuck off to, literally, the .01% of raiding guilds and design content to be accessible with middle ground being between the overtuned mess and the heavily gut nerfs they later do? In the progress they kill the Mythic race which has been a "concern" they talk about, but never actually take good steps towards getting rid of.

[Velerios]

It's a bit of a weird situation. Infinite levels are nice, to a degree, because you can still continue to achieve something. On the flip side, it easily can feel annoying, and the levels you get feel meaningless level to level, and hold most of the power when you look at the larger scope. The difference between 80 and 81 is small, but the difference between 80 and 100 can be quite impactful. I suspect this is going to come down to how reasonable it will be to achieve the higher levels. If they put a steep wall up at say, 85 (such as 5-6x the previous level), then I'd say this likely won't be an issue, as it would essentially soft cap HoA levels to a certain point, with the exception of the rare few who bleed AP sources dry.

Even then it's not an big issue: as long as Artefact Knowledge is increasing, you get naturally faster levels, and when it stops there will be quickly a big gap where AP are no longer worth the hassle. Yes, 80-100 is a big gap, but i doubt that such a big gap will be the case. Because without additional Artefact/Azerite/Whatever Knowledge, the grind goes quickly uphill. If the grind is really endless, then yes, after a few levels the AP-Requirements are so hard, that it's simply not worth to get it anymore.

Don't forget: you still get natural ap, and most players will have it then on a level where getting additional ap is by far not worth the hasse, and having 2 ilvl more simply doesn't matter. As you said: it's only an issue if there is a quantity of levels to gain easily. But that will not be the case. And when you reach the soft cap, i don't believe that after 85 grinding for knowledge is worth it, because it doesn't matter anymore. You still get ap naturally, all over that is too much, and it's not worth the hassle. So yes, it's simply don't matter.

[SirCowdog]

Making AP account wide would certainly incentivize alts, in fact it might incentivize it too much.
AP at the moment works on the system of diminishing returns, each day you get an easy allotment, same with every week.
If Blizzard made it so this is farmable account wide then the ideal setup would be 49 alts doing the weekly island quest and all the AP emissaries, which then leaves Blizzard with a conondrum, do they balance around players having several alts all of whom are farming, making the grind unbearable for players with only a main, or do they balance around a single character and watch the dedicated Bleeding edge players instantly max out their artifact.

Sure, you could make it so you could only farm up a single characters worth each week or whatever, or even make the quests themselves account wide, but that has its own set of problems.


Honor worked as an account wide grind because there were no power gains from farming a high amount, only prestige. And even then there is not that much more effective to farm the weekly quests on 50 alts as it is to farm BGs on a single character.

Make weekly and daily AP quests account wide too, then? I don't know.