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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosgoth View Post
    Don't strawman what I say.
    I didn't. You should not dodge what you said by pretending nonexistent argumentative devices were used. AP has been a light-touch continuous reward system (up until the too easy to reach cap.) If you're going to intimate that AP is or has been or could be expected to be some horrible grind, then I think you're playing the wrong kind of game.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    Thanks, i didn't know that the CDR caps out at 25%; Since 8.3 softcaps at 85; it's not even necessary to nerf anything just because of the point in versatility here and there. This shows even more that any grinding beyond 85 simply do not matter at all beyond what you already get naturally on AP. So in the end it's still just 2 ilvl, and that on a minor slot like the neckpiece.

    Logically it doesn't matter at all, but here people stand on their principles: theoretically it's possible: WE NEED TO ENDLESS GRIND AP, EVEN IF IT'S NOT LOGICAL TO DO SO, BUT 2 ILVL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
    Technically the soft cap is 80 now that they are making this change, but I feel that ultimately, none of this matters. If they cut out leveling after 80, giving you a 24% CDR, 1% more CDR is what, 1.5 seconds off the CD? Plus, like we've both noted, the 1-2 versatility you get every couple levels is pointless. Not to mention that the Heart gains something like 1-2 secondary and maybe 3-4 primary stat per level. When I noticed this early on in BFA it made the heart very VERY underwhelming.

    This is where the Legion Weapon operated much better. Every level unlocked something more tangible. At max, you would upgrade a stat proc, which generally you could feel the increase of. You improved the weapon power with relics (instead of the AP increases) that gave not just big Ilvl boosts, but extra perks within the artifact itself (NLC drama notwithstanding). HoA levels feel totally hollow, and the only reason we ever want to level it is because of these arbitrary break points that are being held hostage. Prior to 8.2 it was unlocking your traits, and post 8.2 it's about unlocking your essence slots. But once you get 65 right now, the next 5 levels might as well not exist.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    The "endless" AP grind that ended for all but the most casual players many many weeks ago? It may not be a great system, but anything they implement to give purpose to continuing to play your character is lambasted by the forum crowds as an "endless grind".
    Yep. Never forget that listening to these same people was what got us WoD expansion.


    That being said, the anti-corruption node is gone, but the neck still levels up. This scales your azerite powers as well as giving secondary stats. Each level is worth at least 100 dps for my spec, just based on the additional haste.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    I think there is a certain type of player that just likes to finish stuff.
    Players who don't like RPGs are free to play games they do like.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It is kind of silly this. You would have practically been done with it anyway, just getting some tiny upgrade from each point which would be meaningless, since it would be something that would take some time to get to anyway.

    Having some sort of progression is actually an incentive to play. I see it in the patches as well. Whenever people got to 50, 70 they played a lot less, fewer guildies/friends to do mythic+ with etc. If this happened in Legion it would have made more sense, because you had more to do outside getting AP; Mage Tower, Legendaries, Artifact Weapon Skins etc.

    I guess the Legendary Cloak change is an okay compromise. And the heart getting upgraded infinitely. The visions better be good.
    It sounds like killing N'zoth weekly on any difficulty will give the cloak upgrade item. So that instead of every part of the game you choose to play giving AP that gradually improves your character.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Exhuman View Post
    Faith have been restored a lil bit.

    Didn't really bother me but im happy for the people who hate endless grinds to bad im not a min and max player.

  5. #125
    Thats actually bad news.
    It reduces the amount of time players spend in the game in the last tier of the expansion which means many raids will die out faster.
    In addition to that we no longer have a possibility to endlessly "nerf" the last bosses of the raid, only a finite method. This makes clearing it also harder.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    No there's compared to
    The new system compared to the old system

    IDGAF about the grinding needed for a 2ilvl increase when I would rather spend that time on getting resistance for bigger gains

    Compared to

    I need to grind the 700k AP before progression so I can equip the corrupted piece that is a 5% increase that's been in my bag because resistance is sooooo trickled down and I need it for the next mythic boss
    Old System: if you want to use another corruption piece, you can grind as much as you want to get it. Player agency.
    New System: weekly lockout gives item that increases ability to use corrupted gear. Timegated.


    Perhaps we can tag all the pro-timegate, anti-playeragency people applauding this change.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Did they somehow make it endless in the early 8.3 builds? Cause last I checked the AP grind ended effectively at 65.
    well, at 75 you get a 3rd minor slot on the ptr, so thats something you probably would want to do. after that, you can forget about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Make weekly and daily AP quests account wide too, then? I don't know.
    as reps and essences have shown, they arent going to make things that give player power account wide. transmog and mounts and pets and shit sure. ap and essences? nope.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post

    Players who don't like RPGs are free to play games they do like.
    So players who liked World of Wacraft before Legion, where they switched the reward mechanics from one finishable hard capped grind after the next to endless grinding with soft caps, didn't like rpgs (Or, what you probably meant, MMORPGS, which actually are mostly based on grindy game mechanics)?

    That's one weird statement.
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Old System: if you want to use another corruption piece, you can grind as much as you want to get it. Player agency.
    New System: weekly lockout gives item that increases ability to use corrupted gear. Timegated.


    Perhaps we can tag all the pro-timegate, anti-playeragency people applauding this change.
    700k AP required for the +1 to resistance isn't timegated??

    The item that you get from a boss kill and from horrific visions is time gated though???

    Come on dude you can't look at the system that would require soooo9oooooooo much freaking grind. The system would be ok if we could grind it multiple ways but fuuuuuuuuuuck islands and fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck islands on alts

    Compared to

    Do visions for the item and kill the boss for the item

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    Good. They are finally listening
    They always are. They just don't always agree to bend over to everyone's demands.

    Remember that when you ask for something in the game, there's high chances you are insanely wrong and selfish.

  11. #131
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We’ve heard a lot of feedback from players, and we agree, that there’s value in being able to reach a point where you’re essentially done with Artifact Power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exhuman View Post
    They agreed that the endless grind need to stop somewhere.
    That's a significant thing for the game design if they follow through on it. It didn't bother me much but I'm one of those self-contradictory players who enjoys a long trip to get somewhere but never grinds it. I mostly just play and it ends when it ends (usually surprising me when the achievement toast pops up). Having an 'end' though seems like a good thing.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Thats actually bad news.
    It reduces the amount of time players spend in the game in the last tier of the expansion which means many raids will die out faster.
    In addition to that we no longer have a possibility to endlessly "nerf" the last bosses of the raid, only a finite method. This makes clearing it also harder.
    Eh, there's other ways to nerf content. Applying aura's being just one.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It isn't you're right. But you're dealing with a community that has an "It is a 0.01% power increase and i has to do it because there's a 0.000000001% chance that me getting that boost will knock the boss over. If I don't my raid lead will yell at me!" attitude.
    This has nothing to do with getting bosses over, its more about improving your favorite character as much as you can because that makes you happy.

    Level 70 to 71 (2 ilevels increase) is 0.2% dps increase.
    I compared necks levels 85 to 86, 86 to 87, 87 to 88, etc. and each increase is approximately 0.3-0.4% dps increase per rank for a standard patchwerk sim. This is obviously for 1 class and 1 spec with current essences, but it means you get 150-200 dps per neck level or 1000 dps per 5 levels. If the trait is similar to concordance where you can reasonably grind to a level, then adding up those 15-20 levels adds up to a lot of extra dps. Not to forget the extra stamina coming from the neck which helps you get through mechanics easier.

  14. #134
    This was not really a problem, imo.

    However, it is GOOD that Blizzard is responding to some things the community wants. I have actually migrated to Destiny 2(and WoW Classic) now though, so while I do hope to see this continue and become a trend, I'm good either way. I've decided they will have to earn my money this time, honestly. I no longer have blind faith I will love their new content.

    To say that without giving specifics would be trolling, so I'll say what I'd like to see at a minimum: To get me back, they need to re-emphasize raiding(through rewards that reflect the logistical difficulty of raiding relative to other end game activities). If you say raiding is already fine as it is, I tend to disagree(unless something has changed in the last month or two), and feel it should be more rewarding for the time invested. Also, make sure we have interesting long term rewards(non-cosmetic, that last over multiple raid tiers), earned in a very interactive process, ready to grind day 1 of 9.0.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2019-11-20 at 09:26 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    It sounds like killing N'zoth weekly on any difficulty will give the cloak upgrade item. So that instead of every part of the game you choose to play giving AP that gradually improves your character.
    I think that was already implemented, from the wording of it. The thing they changed seem to be adding an item after you got those upgrades from bosses, visions etc, that will work like the endless Heart grind would provide which they now removed. It seems to be the same thing, just a bit less grind to it. Or do I read it wrong?
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  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Eh, there's other ways to nerf content. Applying aura's being just one.

    Applying Auras actually is a bad way to do it, since you are nerfing the content without player engagement. Nerfing something always feels bad, while getting better gear to overcome the challenges feels good and rewarding.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Applying Auras actually is a bad way to do it, since you are nerfing the content without player engagement. Nerfing something always feels bad, while getting better gear to overcome the challenges feels good and rewarding.
    But nerfing will auras is the best way IMO, it allows you to turn it off if you really want to. I wish they'd go back to that.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    as reps and essences have shown, they arent going to make things that give player power account wide. transmog and mounts and pets and shit sure. ap and essences? nope.
    Well, there is precedent for it. The Pathfinder achievements can be completed across any character on your account. One character can finish one rep, while another finishes the exploration part, and have it count towards the completion.

    I just figured that if sharing AP across characters caused people to feel like they MUST have many characters in order to grind, then take away the mechanic of per-character grinding and make it account wide. It seemed to make sense, but I wanted to see if people could find any flaws with it.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    The "endless" AP grind that ended for all but the most casual players many many weeks ago? It may not be a great system, but anything they implement to give purpose to continuing to play your character is lambasted by the forum crowds as an "endless grind".
    No, that had nothing of endless about it, this was once you would reach 85 neck each subsequent neck level would give you +1 corruption resistance without a cap, so basically the more corrupted items you get the more AP you had to farm to make up for it, so in theory you could be 'forced' to farm 100 neck levels just to make up for your 100 corruption.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    But nerfing will auras is the best way IMO, it allows you to turn it off if you really want to. I wish they'd go back to that.
    No, it really is a bad way, because nobody will turn it off. And why would you? There is no incentive of it. I really hope we will never see this again.

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