Return to Ranged: Frost vs Fire

[jellmoo]

Hi Mages,

A little background: the last time I played ranged DPS would have been during the first half of WoD where I was playing a Destruction Warlock. Since then, I've pretty much been playing either melee DPS (Fury and Ret) or tanking (BrM).

I'm looking to get back into the groove of things, and want to pivot back to ranged DPS. I've settled on playing a Mage as it will be a relatively new experience for me class wise (I've leveled Mage alts over the years but never mained one for any length of time). I'm very much a casual style player, my peak content will be Mythic + and Rated BGs. I'm definitely not considered with meta or anything, just having some fun.

My question is: Which playstyle is easier to pick up and run with? Not necessarily master, but start to understand and dig into without throwing out embarrassing numbers: Frost or Fire?

Mastering the spec will come with time, I'm looking to find the spec that is least likely to stump me in the short term as I try to shift to a ranged mindset.

From what I've gathered, Frost seems more like a planning spec, whilst Fire seems more reactionary. Weirdly, I think I find myself understanding the core concept of chasing crits with Fire a little better, as I'm not entirely sure I grasp the notion of the Glacial Spike playstyle of Frost.

One caveat: I do suffer from some visual impairment, which means I need addons to help me with procs and the like. This is largely a non-issue, but it does mean that I need to setup my UI specifically for each class/spec I play.

Any advice/thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Ehrenpanzer]

Frost is by far the easier spec

[jellmoo]

Frost is by far the easier spec

I think what's bothering me with Frost right now is that it seems too simple to be true. Unless I'm really mistaken, it looks like the rotation (at its simplest) amounts to:

Frozen Orb on Cooldown
Frostbolt
Flurry when Brain Freeze procs happen
Glacial Spike when at 5 icicles

[Ehrenpanzer]

I think what's bothering me with Frost right now is that it seems too simple to be true. Unless I'm really mistaken, it looks like the rotation (at its simplest) amounts to:

Frozen Orb on Cooldown
Frostbolt
Flurry when Brain Freeze procs happen
Glacial Spike when at 5 icicles

thats basically it.... get gear... top meters....lullz ensue

[jellmoo]

thats basically it.... get gear... top meters....lullz ensue

Um... Okay.

One thing I'm worried about is how movement will affect me. Coming from melee DPS and tanking, I move. A lot. It's going to take some effort to remember not to be constantly moving around. Any notion as to which spec is more punishing to unscheduled movement?

[clevin]

Um... Okay.

One thing I'm worried about is how movement will affect me. Coming from melee DPS and tanking, I move. A lot. It's going to take some effort to remember not to be constantly moving around. Any notion as to which spec is more punishing to unscheduled movement?

This is something I wouldn't do (look for a spec that accommodates movement). It's not a bad idea per se, but you want to train yourself to not move unless there's a reason for it. I know how hard that can be as I play melee too, but you really want to get into good habits vs indulging bad ones. Eventually you'll switch between "Must stand still" and "gotta move to keep right position" mindsets pretty easily.

[Heffladin]

This is something I wouldn't do (look for a spec that accommodates movement). It's not a bad idea per se, but you want to train yourself to not move unless there's a reason for it. I know how hard that can be as I play melee too, but you really want to get into good habits vs indulging bad ones. Eventually you'll switch between "Must stand still" and "gotta move to keep right position" mindsets pretty easily.

True, fire is very good with movement heavy fights atleast.

[Amaterasu65]

I think what's bothering me with Frost right now is that it seems too simple to be true. Unless I'm really mistaken, it looks like the rotation (at its simplest) amounts to:

Frozen Orb on Cooldown
Frostbolt
Flurry when Brain Freeze procs happen
Glacial Spike when at 5 icicles

Frost isn't as easy as it sounds. Most important thing is spell sequence as Frost. When you get Brain Freeze, you cast the next Frostbolt and when the cast ends you release Flurry and you make your Frostbolt crir. Then throw immediately an Ice Lance (without FoF) and kt will crit too. The same synergy happens with GS. Around 3 icicles you keep a Flurry proc til you get 5 icicles, then cast GS + throw Flurry proc at the same time and GS will crir. Then throw an IL because it will crit too thanks to Flurry.

Fire is more of a reaction based spec. Frost is easier though and more efficient for most players in raids and m+.

I use TMW to track procs and buffs depending on spec.

[jellmoo]

This is something I wouldn't do (look for a spec that accommodates movement). It's not a bad idea per se, but you want to train yourself to not move unless there's a reason for it. I know how hard that can be as I play melee too, but you really want to get into good habits vs indulging bad ones. Eventually you'll switch between "Must stand still" and "gotta move to keep right position" mindsets pretty easily.

You're absolutely not wrong here. I'm just worried about embarrassing myself as I try and shift to a ranged mentality.

The other part is how emergency movement is handled. Playing melee, I'm so used to continuing to move when I trigger a movement ability like Roll or Heroic Leap. Training myself not to do that and immediately go to cast is going to take some doing.

[Kyphael]

Yeah, Frost is stupid easy and effective in everything else too like questing, soloing, and PVP on top of PVE.

[clevin]

You're absolutely not wrong here. I'm just worried about embarrassing myself as I try and shift to a ranged mentality.

The other part is how emergency movement is handled. Playing melee, I'm so used to continuing to move when I trigger a movement ability like Roll or Heroic Leap. Training myself not to do that and immediately go to cast is going to take some doing.

Remember you have Blink, so if you are in a fight where crap can spawn under you and you need to move you'll have an instant get out of fire spell. Then it's just practice to reorient to the boss if you need to and cast again.

BTW it's not BAD to use a spec that's more tolerant of movement... it's just that you want to avoid trying top fit your melee style onto a caster.

[jellmoo]

Remember you have Blink, so if you are in a fight where crap can spawn under you and you need to move you'll have an instant get out of fire spell. Then it's just practice to reorient to the boss if you need to and cast again.

BTW it's not BAD to use a spec that's more tolerant of movement... it's just that you want to avoid trying top fit your melee style onto a caster.

It's exactly Blink that I'm thinking of. With melee DPS I'm so used to Rolling, for example, but then continuing the move to a new position. Here I'm going to have to train myself to Blink, pivot, and cast as needed. It's an interesting thing to adapt to.

I think ultimately the challenge will be there with a calss/spec that hard casts most of their spells, regardless of whether I go Frost or Fire. It will take an adjustment, which is actually kind of refreshing.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

I think what's bothering me with Frost right now is that it seems too simple to be true. Unless I'm really mistaken, it looks like the rotation (at its simplest) amounts to:

Frozen Orb on Cooldown
Frostbolt
Flurry when Brain Freeze procs happen
Glacial Spike when at 5 icicles

tis is very true. very very true

[jellmoo]

This is going to sound ridiculous, given what I've asked, but it may be that the Frost rotation will bore me. Granted, I'm coming from playing Ret, so I'm used to boring, but I do like *some* urgency in my DPS priority list.

Also, maybe I'm nuts, but I feel like the current Frost rotation isn't intended? If that makes sense? Like, they're a hotfix away from changing how the spec plays.

[Doffen]

Arcane ^^

Sorry, but that's my suggestion! Too much of a straight forward rotation maybe?

[jellmoo]

Arcane ^^

Sorry, but that's my suggestion! Too much of a straight forward rotation maybe?

Honestly? There's just something about Arcane that stresses me out. I get that it isn't hard, but I don't like the fact that a mistake will absolutely wrech your DPS.

[Aggrophobic]

This is going to sound ridiculous, given what I've asked, but it may be that the Frost rotation will bore me. Granted, I'm coming from playing Ret, so I'm used to boring, but I do like *some* urgency in my DPS priority list.

Also, maybe I'm nuts, but I feel like the current Frost rotation isn't intended? If that makes sense? Like, they're a hotfix away from changing how the spec plays.

It's not ridiculous, frost can be boring if you're not into thoes very basic specs. It's not for everyone.
But if you really want to be good at a class, pick one where you like (or at least can bring yourself to play) all the specs. There will be times where one spec is so much better than the others that you'll feel more or less forced to pick that.

[Lollis]

When you get Brain Freeze, you cast the next Frostbolt and when the cast ends you release Flurry and you make your Frostbolt crir. Then throw immediately an Ice Lance (without FoF) and kt will crit too. The same synergy happens with GS. Around 3 icicles you keep a Flurry proc til you get 5 icicles, then cast GS + throw Flurry proc at the same time and GS will crir. Then throw an IL because it will crit too thanks to Flurry.

Please note that while essentially this is true, as it currently stands because of how mastery scaling works along with the Flash Freeze trait, this is not the optimal playstyle. I'm not sure how much investigation has been done with regards to the icelance change in 8.3 but as it stands this is the current frost mage rotation (assuming you have a decent mastery stat):


Frozen Orb
Frostbolt until 5 Icicles
Frostbolt until Flurry procs (or use Ebonbolt)
Glacial Spike
Flurry


The scaling is as such that currently you never use Icelance unless you are moving. That being said, you should sim yourself because it really depends on your gear.

[Doffen]

Honestly? There's just something about Arcane that stresses me out. I get that it isn't hard, but I don't like the fact that a mistake will absolutely wrech your DPS.

Yeah, planning ahead and noticing timers etc on fights is very important. Lot's of the damage is centered around a short but powerful burst, which I like, but I can see that it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[Lollis]

Yeah, planning ahead and noticing timers etc on fights is very important. Lot's of the damage is centered around a short but powerful burst, which I like, but I can see that it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Personally I just find it super boring, even more than frost. The whole mana management thing is an okay idea, but, like jellmoo said, when a simple mistake happens, or the rng screws you over (such as a raid ability hitting you during a burn or evocation phase for example) it just gives too much of a crippling effect on your dps.