Return to Ranged: Frost vs Fire

[Kaver]

Fire is amazing in m+ especially if you’re able to plan your combustions around the void emissaries. Having that big burst when these emissaries are placed in annoying mob-packs can be really nice. But it requires you to know when and when not to use your CD.

Frost is just nice and simple. Press stuff and do damage.

If you really want performance with no effort at all you should definitely go BM hunter though.

[Amaterasu65]

Please note that while essentially this is true, as it currently stands because of how mastery scaling works along with the Flash Freeze trait, this is not the optimal playstyle. I'm not sure how much investigation has been done with regards to the icelance change in 8.3 but as it stands this is the current frost mage rotation (assuming you have a decent mastery stat):


Frozen Orb
Frostbolt until 5 Icicles
Frostbolt until Flurry procs (or use Ebonbolt)
Glacial Spike
Flurry


The scaling is as such that currently you never use Icelance unless you are moving. That being said, you should sim yourself because it really depends on your gear.

And yes. This is the current playstyle but I wanted to point out how spells synergize with each other. Ofc simming is optimal.

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Personally I just find it super boring, even more than frost. The whole mana management thing is an okay idea, but, like jellmoo said, when a simple mistake happens, or the rng screws you over (such as a raid ability hitting you during a burn or evocation phase for example) it just gives too much of a crippling effect on your dps.

Arcane for me is a very outdated spec in terms of how raid encounters are designed. Immobile and/or specs that lack cleave or multidot are worse than the others.

[Doffen]

Personally I just find it super boring, even more than frost. The whole mana management thing is an okay idea, but, like jellmoo said, when a simple mistake happens, or the rng screws you over (such as a raid ability hitting you during a burn or evocation phase for example) it just gives too much of a crippling effect on your dps.

Totally get what you mean. Arcane in Legion was better because of more stuff interacting with each other, the Aluneth ability and I think as spec identity goes, Arcane was on top in Legion. We had Arcane Missiles on a 3-charges cooldown you could use while moving as well, now it is a PvP-ability(which they first made as Conflict and Strife ability, but no, let's give Arcane another shield..) I was a tad disappointed going into BfA. The core of it is still the same, but it lost a bit of flavor in BfA, and it really shows.

However, the play style is something I have enjoyed since I started my mage in Wrath, got two now, both Arcane. If they could continue this while giving us some flavor it would make it more fun.

[Aphrel]

I think what's bothering me with Frost right now is that it seems too simple to be true. Unless I'm really mistaken, it looks like the rotation (at its simplest) amounts to:

Frozen Orb on Cooldown
Frostbolt
Flurry when Brain Freeze procs happen
Glacial Spike when at 5 icicles

unless somethings changed since i played it in bod. You save flurry to use with glacial spike always. so its even more midnless than you suggested

[Ehrenpanzer]

Um... Okay.

One thing I'm worried about is how movement will affect me. Coming from melee DPS and tanking, I move. A lot. It's going to take some effort to remember not to be constantly moving around. Any notion as to which spec is more punishing to unscheduled movement?

Likely fire, as you will continue to damage the enemies with dots while you move. That being said, simple boss mechanic memorization will eliminate 90% of this issue and frost even with movement problems is still the far superior dps spec (for the moment)

[Thaylen]

My two cents FWIW:

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be a master of Mage. I've recently (past few weeks) just changed to focus it as my main (from S. Priest).

1) If you are doing M+, don't forget about Blizzard in your rotation. +3 mobs and you'll be using it often to reduce the CD of frozen orb.

2) I don't use Glacial Spike talent. I don't like the rotation (particularly with having to ignore the ice lance visuals) and am actually simming higher without using it with my gear. Since Ice Lance will be getting a 20% dmg increase in 8.3, I'd strongly recommend going without the GS talent to start to get the hang of the rotation for the way I assume it will go once 8.3 drops in Jan.

3) If you aren't already 120 on your mage, try arcane for leveling up via dungeons. It's an absolute blast and you'll dominate meters (assuming you are enchanting your gears) because you are essentially always in "burn phase" due to the short fights. Talent for burst and eat your mana buns immediately after trash fights to bring your mana back to top. So much fun.

[Sageless]

Likely fire, as you will continue to damage the enemies with dots while you move. That being said, simple boss mechanic memorization will eliminate 90% of this issue and frost even with movement problems is still the far superior dps spec (for the moment)

Unsure which game you are playing, but in World of Warcraft expansion Battle for Azeroth frost is not the superior dps spec. Fire is approximately 10% to 20% ahead of frost in all raid difficulties. And as the frost major essence (condensed life force) will receive a nerf compared to the fire major essence and the way both specs scale, it is likely that this difference will increase in patch 8.3 and the following raid.

Unfortunately both fire and arcane suffer the same big burst dps during cooldowns playstyle, meaning small mistakes during these windows will ruin your overall damage. Frost is much more a stabile dps spec. Current raid design however is completely tailored to fire builds, meaning an average fire mage will do the same damage as an exceptional frost mage. As such if you look at numbers, fire is a safer bet.

[Video Games]

Please note that while essentially this is true, as it currently stands because of how mastery scaling works along with the Flash Freeze trait, this is not the optimal playstyle. I'm not sure how much investigation has been done with regards to the icelance change in 8.3 but as it stands this is the current frost mage rotation (assuming you have a decent mastery stat):


Frozen Orb
Frostbolt until 5 Icicles
Frostbolt until Flurry procs (or use Ebonbolt)
Glacial Spike
Flurry


The scaling is as such that currently you never use Icelance unless you are moving. That being said, you should sim yourself because it really depends on your gear.

Noil is still like 2% better next patch from what ive read

[Lollis]

Noil is still like 2% better next patch from what ive read

It's looking like Orblance may be the spec for 8.3, but I'm not sure about Icelance in the GS rotation.

[Video Games]

It's looking like Orblance may be the spec for 8.3, but I'm not sure about Icelance in the GS rotation.

Probably. Id actually really like to play it but its such a hassle to get the traits and fire is just too good now

[nickseng]

Orb Build will be the highest dps frost build.
NoIL will still be better than standard (which is what noIL+IL is anyway)

All this has already been simmed in the Mage discord.

[jellmoo]

For myself, I'm not terribly tied to sims for top performance. My biggest concern is the transition from melee to ranged which is mostly going to be retraining muscle memory. My biggest concern was making sure that the spec itself wasn't going to get in the way of it.

I'm still leveling my mage, taking advantage of the xp bonus. I've decided to level as Fire since it seems like the base rotation is pretty standard as you level (minus some nuance) and thus far it's worked. Training myself not to move when I don't need to is tough, but at least the rotation isn't getting in the way. It's fluid enough that nothing sticks out as being an issue.

I'll probably respec to Frost at around 100 to give it a go and see how the various playstyles go. I honestly hadn't though of using a build without Glacial Spike, but if it's a viable enough path that may be something to look into.

[Alvito]

Um... Okay.

One thing I'm worried about is how movement will affect me. Coming from melee DPS and tanking, I move. A lot. It's going to take some effort to remember not to be constantly moving around. Any notion as to which spec is more punishing to unscheduled movement?

Fires dmg window is instant casts, frost has you doing a long glacial spike cast. You can use shimmer to help some with that, but if shimmer isn't up or wont be enough you are gimped.

[Pigglix]

So..im kinda on the same boat of the OP, been maining a melee for years and now i really want try a ranged class for real and i think mage is the one that i enjoyed most.

Anyway, my biggest problem and doubt with mage is that i really enjoy frost and sometimes i raid mythic as a guest. The RL already told me to feel free to play what i enjoy the most instead of worrying about the FoTM stuff and what not.

Here is my doubt, i really dislike Glacial Spike beacuse of the long cast and because i cant be trigger happy with flurry procs and unless im mistaken, the spec dosent care about haste right? it's just mastery all the way then crit until certain point then haste. Anyway, thing is, if i follow any of the recommended builds, but ignoring glacial spike and going with Thermal void instead, how much hard i would be gimping myself?

Would be that hard as in anything above 3-5% or it would be okayish being gimped below those values? (granted, this is to me, im okay being below 3-5% perfomance of the top build, i know some people would hate to be even below 1%, but to me, its ok).

Because so far i really enjoy the lore of the class, the feel of the specs, so is mage a class thaat if i play what spec and build i enjoy the most would be okay or i have to follow the top stuff to not end being a dead weight to the raid?

Another doubt is, how mage is historicaly regarding build choices? has been mages okay in the past to allow players choose whatever build they enjoy more and still let them perform well? Asking this because if i main a mage, its going to be for mid 8.3 or pre patch/shadowlands+, i just want to make sure i wont be locked to one spec and one build of that spec if i want to be good for the raid.

I know i could check WCL, but i dont trust that place to measure spec perfomance since i played outlaw SnD rogue back in nighthold and then in antorus and if i remember correctly, WCL said the spec was trash aand i did well with it. Wich led me to believe on Ion words when he said that place is more of a popularity show rather than how well a class/spec is doing.

Sorry for the big wall of text btw >.<'

[jellmoo]

I mean if you're into moving a lot BM Hunter might be for you, lots of instant cast ranged abilities. It's interesting enough with maximizing damage during Beastial Warth and that other cooldown it has.

As for mage I'd go with Fire, it feels great to play if you ask me. The core gameplay loop which is fireball into fireblast into pyroblast is very aggressive, violent and satisfying compared to Frost which is just chucking icicles at people.

It's not so much that I like moving, as it is that after 2+ expansions of playing melee DPS and tanking that I've gotten incredibly used to always being on the move. It's mostly a matter of retraining myself.

And I find myself agreeing with your assessment of Fire as I am leveling one up now. It does feel aggressive and there is a sort of cathartic joy as you unleash those bursts of damage.

[nickseng]

So..im kinda on the same boat of the OP, been maining a melee for years and now i really want try a ranged class for real and i think mage is the one that i enjoyed most.

Anyway, my biggest problem and doubt with mage is that i really enjoy frost and sometimes i raid mythic as a guest. The RL already told me to feel free to play what i enjoy the most instead of worrying about the FoTM stuff and what not.

Here is my doubt, i really dislike Glacial Spike beacuse of the long cast and because i cant be trigger happy with flurry procs and unless im mistaken, the spec dosent care about haste right? it's just mastery all the way then crit until certain point then haste. Anyway, thing is, if i follow any of the recommended builds, but ignoring glacial spike and going with Thermal void instead, how much hard i would be gimping myself?

Would be that hard as in anything above 3-5% or it would be okayish being gimped below those values? (granted, this is to me, im okay being below 3-5% perfomance of the top build, i know some people would hate to be even below 1%, but to me, its ok).

Because so far i really enjoy the lore of the class, the feel of the specs, so is mage a class thaat if i play what spec and build i enjoy the most would be okay or i have to follow the top stuff to not end being a dead weight to the raid?

Another doubt is, how mage is historicaly regarding build choices? has been mages okay in the past to allow players choose whatever build they enjoy more and still let them perform well? Asking this because if i main a mage, its going to be for mid 8.3 or pre patch/shadowlands+, i just want to make sure i wont be locked to one spec and one build of that spec if i want to be good for the raid.

I know i could check WCL, but i dont trust that place to measure spec perfomance since i played outlaw SnD rogue back in nighthold and then in antorus and if i remember correctly, WCL said the spec was trash aand i did well with it. Wich led me to believe on Ion words when he said that place is more of a popularity show rather than how well a class/spec is doing.

Sorry for the big wall of text btw >.<'

you're in luck, in that Frost has a couple of viable builds. If you're not keen on GS, you can try the Orb build

https://www.altered-time.com/forum/v...php?f=5&t=6894

Read the section about the Frozen Orb build

[bigsuirlife]

Imho fire it's the way to go.
more more funny then frost and a decent dps single /AOE in Mythic+

[Kaver]

Imho fire it's the way to go.
more more funny then frost and a decent dps single /AOE in Mythic+

Fire is just a one of those specs where the group should play around it in m+. The tank should adapt his pulls for when combustion is ready. This however requires communication which makes it harder to use the full potential of fire in pugs.

But if you have a team on discord then fire is extremely fun and good

[Shakana]

Yeah, Frost is stupid easy and effective in everything else too like questing, soloing, and PVP on top of PVE.

Sorry but, arcane is way easier than those 2 xD

[bigsuirlife]

yestarday on 420 ilvl range on +8 Mythic , a fire mage does really really decent damage and seems funny to play.