Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (NOT High Elves)

[yani9841]

They use Immol'thar as their magical font. We kill it in Classic.

use of demons as font has other rammifications in literally every case.... not present in with Shen'dralar. days or moments of exposure results in drastic changes to elf biology/physiology in EVERY SINGLE OTHER CASE.

Shendralar are over there siphoning demon power for anywhere between a few centuries to a whole damn millenia or two and... nothing?

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As someone already pointed out, they fed on magic from the demon Immol'thar.

I'm sure it's been repeated. It's a major issue...

Mind you however, this magic was cleansed of fel, so they did not get tainted.

citation needed. Never seen THAT bit.

There's no retconning in the Shen'dralar being Highborne, remainly mostly unchanged (although being slightly paler as reported by Brann) and rejoining the Night Elves and serving the faction.

The issue isn't retconning in the shendralar story. It's new information fundamentally altering elf lore in general. Sometimes changing their magic source has heavy repercussions resulting in totally evolving into something new (like: thallassian, ren'dorei, Naga, Satyr, fell borne, nightborne) But Shendralar have a never fully explained "wizard did it" trope that is virtually the same as what begot us the nightborne (both sealed off from the overworld and drawing on some NON-well of eternity based magical font for unspecified years).

Oh and other non-darnassian groups popping up independent from other groups with little to no explanation...

That's how it needed be back then, because the starting area for the Night Elves had a unique storyline.

This is a fancy way of saying you're not caring about the story being told.

Sorry I don't much like people's fanfic elf stories around these parts. Blame Ravenmoon and the mage guy.

[matrix123mko]

use of demons as font has other rammifications in literally every case.... not present in with Shen'dralar. days or moments of exposure results in drastic changes to elf biology/physiology in EVERY SINGLE OTHER CASE.

He may be connected to Void too. We have no signs of elves being tainted by void magic, if they aren't void elves.

[Astranea]

Use of demons as font has other ramification in literally every case.... not present in with Shen'dralar.
Days or moments of exposure results in drastic changes to elf biology/physiology in EVERY SINGLE OTHER CASE.

Very true, but you cannot blame that one on us fans! It is Blizzard who told the story that way. First in Classic, when the Shen'dralar were shown physically unchanged, if among ruins, and then in Cataclysm when the Shen'dralar were allowed to rejoin their people and become mage trainers despite of being treated with suspicion and even open hostility by some.

>> Mind you however, this magic was cleansed of fel, so they did not get tainted.

citation needed. Never seen THAT bit.

You are right there. I was quoting/believing someone on this forum (who was actually telling me this was why the Shen'dralar in game were not tainted when I was wondering if they shouldn't have been, lol) rather than knowing my sources... and there is, indeed, no explicit talk about cleansing the energy anywhere in the lore that I could find.

As a matter of facts, however, the Adventure Guide in game reports Immol'thar as an ancient void terror, so nothing to do with Fel to start with.

Then about Dire Maul, it can be noted that the demon's Prison is a large round chamber patrolled by arcane elementals, and the center portion is blocked by a magic wall. To slay the demon, you must first destroy the pylons maintaining the prison, which are protected by energy elementals called Arcane Torrents and Mana Remnants, which are supposed - together with the shield that encloses the prison - to be maintained by the energy siphoned from the demon itself. Then there are mobs called Residual Monstrosities, and when you kill them they spawn more arcane elementals that attack with multiple AOE attacks like a mage's arcane explosion.

All of these magical elements of Arcane origin that are supposedly powered by the demon's own energy could therefore lead to believe that the demon's energy gets converted somehow, and that the reason why the Shen'dralar were not visibly tainted might possibly relate to them using said pylons to harvest some kind of raw arcane energy, rather than siphoning his demonic essence.

I am not claiming it is stated clearly, mind you. This is just a hypothesis built upon what little info/evidence is available to us. :-)

The Chronicles Volume 1, especially, gives us two very interesting points:

First of all, it explains that the Shen'dralar were using the demon's power to keep him imprisoned, other than draw from it for themselves, which would appear to support the hypotesis of raw arcane energy being siphoned seen that the prison's shield is of arcane origin and the pylons are protected by arcane elementals.

But also, very important, it explains that the magic from Immol'thar was very dark and volatile, invigorating but also more addictive than that from the Well of Eternity... implying that there WAS some major drawback from using it, despite of it not showing physically. Specifically, this may have corrupted Prince Tortheldrin's soul to the point he did not think twice about killing his own people in order to maintain the energy supply for himself. (As a true addict, one could say!)

Source:



The Shen'dralar Ancient NPC in game also speaks of addiction, clearly stating that Immol'thar's energy it was used "to feed their endless and growing magical pangs." [...]

Unfortunately I do not own the Chronicles Volume 3, but Wowpedia reports from it that when in Year 25 the majority of elves were killed by the Horde, Immol'thar was banished into the Twisting Nether. At this point, the surviving Shen'dralar fled the ruined city and wandered in the woods for years, trying to wean themselves off demonic power and feel whole again.

So they were at least suffering of withdrawal and needed to cleanse themselves of it before eventually rejoining their people in Cataclysm, even though they were not physically altered.

The issue isn't retconning in the shendralar story. It's new information fundamentally altering elf lore in general.

That's where I get a bit confused, because I do not feel there is really any new information here... but rather a need to reclaim and tie in the storyline some old information, which has mostly gone ignored until now, despite of defining a Classic dungeon and explaining how the Night Elves could suddenly return to the magical arts after the Cataclysm.

This is a fancy way of saying you're not caring about the story being told.

I am very sorry you read it that way, because it really is not what I meant. :-(

On the very contrary, I am simply hoping that Blizzard allows us players to draw from a story that was already told long ago, but has been ignored by most until now.

Also, I was drawing a comparison to what Blizzard is doing for some other races... which is why I hope you won't mind me trying to explain my point again, hoping I can do better.

As far as I understand (I may be wrong of course), with Shadowlands and the new starting zone called Exile's Reach for all new characters, Blizzard is giving players a choice to pick the background story of their character among many possible stories from the game, which may or may not be the ones that were previously told in the different starting areas.

This makes Wildhammer Dwarves playable now, where previously they only existed as NPCs but could not be customized since the starting area for the Dwarves had the Dun Morogh questline which would have not made any sense for them.

This also makes Blood Trolls and Dark Trolls playable, again races that existed as NPCs but could not be customized before, since the Troll starting area only concerned the Darkspear tribe.

Finally, it is also why/how Human ethnic looks can be implemented without bothering to give explanations even though we have never seen them before. It is just assumed they have always existed somewhere in the world, despite of not being the people we have always met around Elwynn Forest and Stormwind.

So when all of this becomes possible, why shouldn't the player be allowed to customize a Highborne Night Elf?

The Shen'dralar Highborne exist as NPCs - in fact, they are all the Night Elves' mage trainers - and it is canon lore that they have rejoined their people as of Cataclysm. Why shouldn't the player be given as much choice of different tribe when picking a Night Elf than they will get when picking a Troll or a Dwarf or even a Human?

I do not think that allowing a player to customize a Wildhammer takes away from the story of all old dwarves from Ironforge, just as I do not think that customizing a Dark Troll mean the story of the Darkspear is being dismissed. So why should the customization of a Highborne mage be any different, and take away from the story of the Night Elf youth we have seen before?

The Cataclysm lore states the Shen'dralar rejoined their people, and Since Brann reports that the Highborne are very similar to the regular Night Elves, if a little paler, it is obvious that the Highborne do not make allied race material (besides, as many point out, we really do have plenty of elves) but they could very easily be included as some kind of additional player customization, which could be as simple as some jewelry, elegant hairstyles, pretty faces, and maybe a couple of lighter skin tones.

And additional player customization for the Night Elves based on lore is all that this thread is about.

[Alanar]

That's the wrong way of looking at it. Nightboren were never going to make the highborne obsolete, or do you think because Nightborne arrived they would delete the highborne mage?

I mean, did Highmountain make Tuarne obsolete or Lightfroged make Draenei obsolete? Then why would Nightborne make highborne obsolete when their a skinny ex-addict version of a night elf, while the highborne is a fully healthy still in prime kaldorei representing thevestige of nearly lost and forgotten aspect of the night elf that once dominated the race.
.

I removed most parts of what you wrote cus you can say all those things much shirter and still have the same information.

Anyway mace.. I just flatout dissagree with what you are saying.. we know you want it so badly and it shows.. doesntt make for a fair discussion at all.
The problem is you are saying that the nightborne doesnt make the highborne absolute? Thats just bullshit.. they dont bring anything the nightborne dont. Like I said they are the evolution of the highborne with all traits still intact( pretty much) Dont be silly with stuff like you should remove night elf mages then blabla.. cmon man.. you dissagree with me I can tell, but try to keep.it real.

I said it before and I am saying it again.. the way yoi talk aboit it makes it the new high elf thing. The differences between night elf/ highborne is like blue eyes for blood elves.

I admire your passion.. but realy do we realy need another high elf debate? It would be extra silly if it was a * add this race as a new race*

My view in this case.. is that they had absolutely every intention to create the nightborne to show the player a tiny bit of old night elf aka highborne kingdom with a new faction.. as like the changed highborne, evolution like. That alone makes highborne 100% high elf discussion worthy already.

Nightborne are highborne with arcane marks ( shits happen if you are stuck in a bubble with a well like wota)

[ravenmoon]

but realy do we realy need another high elf debate? It would be extra silly if it was a * add this race as a new race*

What makes you think this is a high elf debate? (nothing wrong with debating that). Last time I checked Night elves and their highborne caste were on quite night elven and playable (on the alliance). And the high elf debate is about playable blood elves on the alliance.

It's a totally different discussion going on here, and it's not a debate about you want my elf stuff (they're not our elves), it's a presentation of doing a customisation for the highborne night elves we play similar to how the Illidari night elf has its own unique customisation.

It's not even remotely the same discussion - unless you keep thinking highborne are high elves.

I said it before and I am saying it again.. the way yoi talk aboit it makes it the new high elf thing. The differences between night elf/ highborne is like blue eyes for blood elves.

Mate, we're talking about a customisation. You do realise blue eyes/Green eyes is customisation discussion, and it is the appropriate place to have said discussion. And you full well know it's

not an "add this race as a new race" topic, cos we are talking about customisation. That you would even say this and in that way is very telling.

My view in this case.. is that they had absolutely every intention to create the nightborne to show the player a tiny bit of old night elf aka highborne kingdom with a new faction.. as like the changed highborne, evolution like. That alone makes highborne 100% high elf discussion worthy already.

Nightborne are highborne with arcane marks ( shits happen if you are stuck in a bubble with a well like wota)

Then what does that make highborne then? Don't think that because Nightborne exist, highborne don't need to be around or have their night elven assets.. it wouldn't even make sense if Nightborne were on the alliance, because the two are different groups just like the Highmountain are different group to the Mulgore Tauren, or the Lightforged to the Draenei. Do the Highmountain make the Tauren un-necessary because they have similar culture and assets? Do the Lightforged the Draenei? Then why would it be different for the Nightborne and the night elves highborne?

While the Nightborne are shown in a pristine version of the kaldorei civilization side, that does mean it suddenly is irrelevant or non-existent or doesn't need to be shown on the highborne side - remember most of the priest and druid kaldorei also come from that same city - also bearing in mind this is what already exists on the night elf side, and it is the night elf culture being shown. If they were to extend all the abundant highborne night elf and pre-sundering lore they've shown to actually showing it on the playable group - they would be perfectly right to do so. Just because the Nightborne got the full version first, but it was taken over to the horde doesn't mean somehow it isn't existent or the highborne elves and the rest of the kaldorei should now no longer have their cultural and racial assets...

it's like saying because high elves exist or void elves are now, the Thalassian assets don't need to be shown on the blood elves. Or because Highmountain exist or Lightforged Draenei, we don't need to show Draenei tech any longer, or Tauren have no need for homes and totems because the Highmountain show that aspect of them.

It's not what this is about.

Sample Debate:

Unreasonable fan

"Hey blizz, blood elves shouldn't get Farstrider customisations because the high elves and Alleria already have that look."

Me:

"Blood elves have Farstriders and rangers, just because high elves and void elves do as well, doesn't make rangers and Thalassian foraging obsolete on the blood elves, especially given that it is a core part of the blood elves too as we see - blizz it would be good if the Ranger aspect of the blood elves had customisation representation in the playable model and that this side of them is developed further - I would like to se e more of the blood elf side of this. "

Unreasonable fan:

"Hey blizz, Lightforged have a spaceship now, Draenei shouldn't get one, because you've chosen to show the space faring side of the Eredar in the Lightforged"

Me

: "Lightforged having a spaceship and being spacefaring doesn't mean draenei don't have similar. We first saw and got introduced to that aspect of the race from the Draenei. And it as the Draenei who built the Vindicaar and upgraded it anyway. It's fine that Lightforged are more focused in space, or almost entirely there, but that doesn't mean a part of the larger draenei doesn't have space travelling and building group that is comparable in its own way. It was first on the draenei. - The point of Lightforged is not to replace the draenei or make them redundant, that's now why we have these options and these stories."

It looks worse because you're a horde fan, and Nightborne are on the horde, so it is looking like you don't want night elven lore stuff to exist in it's actual prieistine lore format like it does in Surmar on the core race whose lore it is. Bottom line, because there is a faction divide, it makes it even more important. However it must be noted that even if they were on the same faction it wouldn't make the need for a highborne customisation or Kaldorei civilization asssets to be available ot the night elves, especially the highborne caste.

The purpose of races like the Nightborne, Highmountain and the other sub-races isn't necessarily to replace or remove other aspects of the core race. Just because Nightborne have it doesn't mean highborne shouldn't now not get kaldorei cultural stuff -the point of the Nightborne, and the Nightborne going horde was not to deny the night elves or their highborne from developing nor was it to annex a core part of their lore from them.

like all allied races, it was to give access to an alternative model, and show different groups of the same race. Just like void elves are a different group of the same race as blood elves or Highmountain are a different group of the same Tauren race, same culture etc except that void elves are on the opposite faction. Their existence neither makes any blood elf existing lore or expertise redundant, using the void doesn't make blood elf shadow priests a no go, and it doesn't mean because they have mages and hunters now, therefore blood elves shouldn't. Nightborne do not make highborne un-necessary anymore than Highmountain make Tauren un-necessary, or blood elves make high elves un-necessary (as much as some fans want it to be so). Their world is diverse and complex and it is good to show different groups with different stories especially in the races. Makes the race actually feel like the race, rather than a small country

[Lahis]

isn't Rasthakan king of all trolls and they answer to the zandalari?

In Ancient past Zandalari were the ruling caste of all trolls like Highborne were to Kaldorei.

Though that time is long gone, the tribes are fractured and Rastakhan never held any power beyond Zandalar during his long lifetime.

[Mace]

In Ancient past Zandalari were the ruling caste of all trolls like Highborne were to Kaldorei.

Though that time is long gone, the tribes are fractured and Rastakhan never held any power beyond Zandalar during his long lifetime.

Pretty much. Although strictly speaking, all trolls were Zandalari, then different groups emerged and broke off, devolving into what they are to day, it's more like night elves and high elves. Night elves are like the Zandalari, high elvs are like the oother troll tribes. Although their fates are quite different.

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What makes you think this is a high elf debate? (nothing wrong with debating that). Last time I checked Night elves and their highborne caste were on quite night elven and playable (on the alliance). And the high elf debate is about playable blood elves on the alliance.

It's a totally different discussion going on here, and it's not a debate about you want my elf stuff (they're not our elves), it's a presentation of doing a customisation for the highborne night elves we play similar to how the Illidari night elf has its own unique customisation.

It's not even remotely the same discussion - unless you keep thinking highborne are high elves.




Mate, we're talking about a customisation. You do realise blue eyes/Green eyes is customisation discussion, and it is the appropriate place to have said discussion. And you full well know it's

not an "add this race as a new race" topic, cos we are talking about customisation. That you would even say this and in that way is very telling.

Then what does that make highborne then? Don't think that because Nightborne exist, highborne don't need to be around or have their night elven assets.. it wouldn't even make sense if Nightborne were on the alliance, because the two are different groups just like the Highmountain are different group to the Mulgore Tauren, or the Lightforged to the Draenei. Do the Highmountain make the Tauren un-necessary because they have similar culture and assets? Do the Lightforged the Draenei? Then why would it be different for the Nightborne and the night elves highborne?

While the Nightborne are shown in a pristine version of the kaldorei civilization side, that does mean it suddenly is irrelevant or non-existent or doesn't need to be shown on the highborne side - remember most of the priest and druid kaldorei also come from that same city - also bearing in mind this is what already exists on the night elf side, and it is the night elf culture being shown. If they were to extend all the abundant highborne night elf and pre-sundering lore they've shown to actually showing it on the playable group - they would be perfectly right to do so. Just because the Nightborne got the full version first, but it was taken over to the horde doesn't mean somehow it isn't existent or the highborne elves and the rest of the kaldorei should now no longer have their cultural and racial assets...

it's like saying because high elves exist or void elves are now, the Thalassian assets don't need to be shown on the blood elves. Or because Highmountain exist or Lightforged Draenei, we don't need to show Draenei tech any longer, or Tauren have no need for homes and totems because the Highmountain show that aspect of them.

It's not what this is about.

Sample Debate:

It looks worse because you're a horde fan, and Nightborne are on the horde, so it is looking like you don't want night elven lore stuff to exist in it's actual prieistine lore format like it does in Surmar on the core race whose lore it is. Bottom line, because there is a faction divide, it makes it even more important. However it must be noted that even if they were on the same faction it wouldn't make the need for a highborne customisation or Kaldorei civilization asssets to be available ot the night elves, especially the highborne caste.

The purpose of races like the Nightborne, Highmountain and the other sub-races isn't necessarily to replace or remove other aspects of the core race. Just because Nightborne have it doesn't mean highborne shouldn't now not get kaldorei cultural stuff -the point of the Nightborne, and the Nightborne going horde was not to deny the night elves or their highborne from developing nor was it to annex a core part of their lore from them.

like all allied races, it was to give access to an alternative model, and show different groups of the same race. Just like void elves are a different group of the same race as blood elves or Highmountain are a different group of the same Tauren race, same culture etc except that void elves are on the opposite faction. Their existence neither makes any blood elf existing lore or expertise redundant, using the void doesn't make blood elf shadow priests a no go, and it doesn't mean because they have mages and hunters now, therefore blood elves shouldn't. Nightborne do not make highborne un-necessary anymore than Highmountain make Tauren un-necessary, or blood elves make high elves un-necessary (as much as some fans want it to be so). Their world is diverse and complex and it is good to show different groups with different stories especially in the races. Makes the race actually feel like the race, rather than a small country

And this is why we shouldn't give the horde, alliance things, they would start insisting that none of it should be on the alliance at all and the alliance has no right to it.. Well said. <Looks at the high elf discussion>. People are so caught up in taking faction sides, they're losing perspective on the bigger picture, descending into, "it's on my faction, therefore it belongs to me - you can't have it, or you shouldn't have it" which really makes no sense if they think about it or observe what blizzard do with the races.

@Alanar , Look, if you really want to force an alliance shouldn't have horde stuff - then you have to:
1. Actually acknowledge the reverse is true, which if we back up a little means nightborne shouldn’t be on the horde even in the first place.
2. If you still then give races like blood elves and nightborne on the horde, then they should fit the horde vibe more essentially, i.e. more war based centric, survival mode..
a) the blood elves should be more like they were in the Netherstorm, no high society , cities and civilization because that' s an alliance thing typically, we should see more of hunter side and ranger stuff, less magic, that's predominantly alliance too and has been amply shown on both night elves and high elves historically.
b) Nightborne if on the horde should be in their Nightfallen resistance state of affairs, based in a cave, not city, exiled and outcast, having to fend for themselves and needing like the other horde races -

Therefore horde versions blood elves and nightborne shouldn't be getting the more alliance themed core civilization of the night elves and high elves - but I don't see you suggesting that. All of a sudden it's wrong "or too similar" only when the alliance want their elves developed - it seems only the horde should have that because according to you, blizzard has alredy done that on the horde, so despite even night elves core being alliance, oh no, by you, they shouldn't have any of their racial stuff that's already been shown on the horde - even though, when it was shown, it was not on the horde at all, only later was it given.

All of which completely ignores that. As soon as blizzard started mixing races between the factions, it made it quite clear that night elf stuff isn't exclusively belonging to the alliance, so why then should any Nightborne stuff (that's ngiht elven anyway) somehow exclusively be with horde? Same with the blood/void elves

As said above, that isn't the point of races, Nightborne existence is not meant to lock all night elven arcane and civilization whether pre-sundering, highborne, Moonguard or otherwise to the horde, just because the sub-race was given to the faction. Nightborne, like Highmountain, Dark Iron, Lightforged, Mag'har are just the story of another group of the same core race that look a little different, sometimes they vary a lot, sometimes they're quite similar or just a part, it doesn't mean night elves and highborne should get no development, and "lose" their civilization side.

[Manariel]

What's funny about the Alliance having no right to have Horde stuff is that the Zandalari are basically Night Elves done right :

An ancient civilization which has lived secluded from the rest of the world since thousands of years ? Check
A civilization which has developed a strong relation with Wild Gods ? Check
A civilization of beings taller and fiercer than their brethren in other parts of the world ? Check

But the Night Elves were never allowed to shine in WoW, as if the developers didn't knew how to make them great. Which is why, while I'm all for some Hightborn style customization, I wouldn't want it to be the norm for Kaldorei. Mages needs to remain a very distrusted and weak remnant of ages past. I'd vastly favor Blizzard fleshing out their dangerousness as soldiers and hunters, close to the natural world, than harp the Highborn looks, since they'll never be able to compete with Blood Elves and Nightborns in that regard.

And it's a testament to the sorry state of affair that has befallen the Night Elves that today, it's mostly peoples wanting them to become "more civilized" (read, more like all the other kind of Elves in WoW and elsewhere) who remains passionate about them, when people like me, who were always drawn to them because they were sauvages, ferocious and thus purer than the decadent elves elsewhere, are either silent or just so dispirited that we don't talk much noways.

[Astranea]

Which is why, while I'm all for some Hightborn style customization, I wouldn't want it to be the norm for Kaldorei. Mages needs to remain a very distrusted and weak remnant of ages past.

Nobody says they should be the norm... and as a matter of facts, personally I would be happy with the Highborne skins being reserved to the mage class only, just like the Demon Hunters get their own set of fel-corrupted skins. :-)

Then again, I don't think that allowing a player to roll Wildhammer Dwarves or Blood Trolls and Dark Trolls will ever twist and change forever the overall dwarven and troll flavor. They are just meant to be playable minorities adding some color based on side-stories from the lore, and that's what the Highborne could and should be as well, if they were implemented.

They were outcasts, and they ARE a minority. I just would like them to be included in the tale, because more options are cooler than fewer options.

[Tharivor]

Alanar, Look, if you really want to force an alliance shouldn't have horde stuff - then you have to:
1. Actually acknowledge the reverse is true, which if we back up a little means nightborne shouldn’t be on the horde even in the first place.

It is highly debatable whether Highborne have ever been part of the Alliance Night Elf theme- the core of Alliance night elves has always been nature and Elune focused Long Vigil Kaledorei culture. In fact until Cataclysm one of the defining features of the modern Kaledorei was their distrust of arcane magic which exceeded that of any other race.

2. If you still then give races like blood elves and nightborne on the horde, then they should fit the horde vibe more essentially, i.e. more war based centric, survival mode..
a) the blood elves should be more like they were in the Netherstorm, no high society , cities and civilization because that' s an alliance thing typically, we should see more of hunter side and ranger stuff, less magic, that's predominantly alliance too and has been amply shown on both night elves and high elves historically.

Blood Elves left the Alliance before WoW even started and fitted the (Eastern Kingdom) Horde vibe perfectly when they were introduced, unless you're suggesting that demonic dealings and reckless magic are Alliance traits?

And your stereotypes about Horde themes conveniently ignore the Forsaken who are not tribal or primitive in the slightest. I mean by the same token I can argue that Night Elves don't fit into the Alliance, since they are a wilderness-based society focused on nature and extremely far removed from the urban civilised light-worshipping societies of the rest of the Alliance?

b) Nightborne if on the horde should be in their Nightfallen resistance state of affairs, based in a cave, not city, exiled and outcast, having to fend for themselves and needing like the other horde races.

Ironically removing the Nightborne from Suramar and focusing them on Shal'aran and the Arcandor would make them far closer to the Alliance Night Elves than they are now. Its exactly their return to arcane-based city-life and refusal to abandon the Highborne way of life that makes them so different from the Night Elves who abandoned all of that thousands of years ago.

Therefore horde versions blood elves and nightborne shouldn't be getting the more alliance themed core civilization of the night elves and high elves - but I don't see you suggesting that. All of a sudden it's wrong "or too similar" only when the alliance want their elves developed - it seems only the horde should have that because according to you, blizzard has alredy done that on the horde, so despite even night elves core being alliance, oh no, by you, they shouldn't have any of their racial stuff that's already been shown on the horde - even though, when it was shown, it was not on the horde at all, only later was it given.

All of which completely ignores that. As soon as blizzard started mixing races between the factions, it made it quite clear that night elf stuff isn't exclusively belonging to the alliance, so why then should any Nightborne stuff (that's ngiht elven anyway) somehow exclusively be with horde? Same with the blood/void elves

As said above, that isn't the point of races, Nightborne existence is not meant to lock all night elven arcane and civilization whether pre-sundering, highborne, Moonguard or otherwise to the horde, just because the sub-race was given to the faction. Nightborne, like Highmountain, Dark Iron, Lightforged, Mag'har are just the story of another group of the same core race that look a little different, sometimes they vary a lot, sometimes they're quite similar or just a part, it doesn't mean night elves and highborne should get no development, and "lose" their civilization side.

For a start the High Elves aren't Alliance-themed- they left the Alliance in WCIII. That's all that really needs to be said about that.

And as for Nightborne, again Highborne stuff has never been central to Alliance Night Elf culture- its always been shared between Blood Elves and Night Elves who both have in interest in their Highborne past but with very different attitudes towards it. Hence why in Legion we saw both Night Elves and Blood Elves get involved, and why a group like the Shen'dralar that are were willing to change were able to rejoin Night Elf society while a group like the Nightborne who wanted to carry on like before the Sundering ended up joining the Blood Elves on the Horde.

You are right that there wouldn't be anything wrong with expending Shen'dralar style Highborne lore and customisation on the Alliance. What would be wrong however is to try and give them the same lore and customisation as the Nightborne. Not only because visually obviously there has to be some differences between the races (hence why the Nightborne were given physical changes to make them different from Night Elves), but also because lore-wise the Night Elves do not interact with their past in the same way as the Nightborne or Blood Elves do. It would be severely damaging to Night Elf lore to have then support a complete reconstruction of pre-Sundering Highborne society, and an especially bad kick in the teeth in the wake of how they've been treated in BfA.
The state of present day Blood Elf lore is a warning of what happens when you remove a key element of a race's characterisation after introducing them- its a mess.

[ravenmoon]

It is highly debatable whether Highborne have ever been part of the Alliance Night Elf theme- the core of Alliance night elves has always been nature and Elune focused Long Vigil Kaledorei culture. In fact until Cataclysm one of the defining features of the modern Kaledorei was their distrust of arcane magic which exceeded that of any other race.

Highly debatable -- dude, the highborne joined the night elves in cataclysm, and the caste is now accepted and revived amongst the Darnassians - it's not a highly debatable. we're not talking about high elves.

It's not about theme either, hihgborne are night elves, night elves are night elves, you are confusing the long vigil and druidic theme and categorising the entire race by it. you are judging things only on what you selectively asee and interprete rather than the information you are given.

Modern Kaldorei, ancient kaldorei, druid kaldorei, highborne kaldorei, Moon Priest kaldorei, Illidari Kaldorei, ruins, pristine cities, forests, ruined forests - it's ALL night elf. THe night elves aren't characterised by humble druids in Barrow dens that shapeshift into animals, that's just one part of them. You don't just washout and ignore every other thing you consistently told and shown to force your own view. Highly debatable indeed, when it's right infront of you. Or do you not realise the night elf mage we play isn't a hypothetical highly debatable highborne that we must ponder or debate whether they have ever been part of the Alliance.

If you want to only see nature and Elune long vigil night elves, and ignore half of the other lore, both in the novels and in the game. Be my guest, don't expect any of us who actually know the lore to agree with you .

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Pretty much. Although strictly speaking, all trolls were Zandalari, then different groups emerged and broke off, devolving into what they are to day, it's more like night elves and high elves. Night elves are like the Zandalari, high elvs are like the oother troll tribes. Although their fates are quite different.

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And this is why we shouldn't give the horde, alliance things, they would start insisting that none of it should be on the alliance at all and the alliance has no right to it.. Well said. <Looks at the high elf discussion>. People are so caught up in taking faction sides, they're losing perspective on the bigger picture, descending into, "it's on my faction, therefore it belongs to me - you can't have it, or you shouldn't have it" which really makes no sense if they think about it or observe what blizzard do with the races.
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The same particular cadre of fans also seem to greatly despise nightborne being like night elves, and I've seen in the past go to great length to deny the two are linked and push desperate for 0 association (change their animations, stance etc, like they are in denial that Nightborne are a version of night elves, as if blizzard would bother changing that just because they can't reconcile the Nightborne as kaldorei stock or can't envision night elves outside the druid or forest hunter image - b/c they don't know or care about night elves and are ignorant of most of its lore), you can tell that it is as if being night elf isn't good enough. They complain about the horrible casting animations and night elf animations as if to say, it's fine being horrible as long as it's only the night elf, but the nightborne should have something better. I guess nightborne sharing the same model, animation, city, history , physical attributes, habits, affinities, likes and dislikes, symbolism, religion, cutlure and identity as night elves wasn't evidence enough.



All blizzard care is when they take a race over, they make it look a little different, and if Pandaren are to go by, that isn't even exclusively the care. They are satisfied with most of the faction being different, not all of it (hence why we have void and Nightborne elves and Pandaren - the first two being alliance races also placed on the horde). And sometimes not even that - being on a faction just gives you a chance to play something there, the core identity of the factions are not in races like Elves and Pandas, Draenei or Forsaken - their identity is in humans (dwarves/gnomes) and orcs (troll/tauren).

Which is why we are seeing some level of mixture on the other races, and why despite their large population, the blood elves are not dominating the ambience or direction of the horde. Because the horde is not about them, they're their primarily to give the players a pretty model to play there, not to change or redefine the horde. That's why horde stuff like Garrisons, meeting points etc, never really have Silvermoon or Belf tuff, it's orc based, troll stuff etc, but for now they at least allow citie like Silvermon and now Suramar to be there so players can have the fine tings of the night elves and high elves also there. But these aren't there to stop the night elves from having their own stuff, nor should they be used as an excuse to somehow never associate Thalassians with the alliance.

The way it is currently is the limit blizzard is willing to go, because despite Belves/Nightborne being on the horde, the core horde race focus is still strong enough and the one primarily used largely keeping the identity of the horde intact. They want it that way. This is why Blood elves and Nightborne will always be second rate members until they decide to change the horde totally. and it remains to be seen whether they would.

[Mace]

Blood Elves left the Alliance before WoW even started and fitted the (Eastern Kingdom) Horde vibe perfectly when they were introduced, unless you're suggesting that demonic dealings and reckless magic are Alliance traits?

And your stereotypes about Horde themes conveniently ignore the Forsaken who are not tribal or primitive in the slightest. I mean by the same token I can argue that Night Elves don't fit into the Alliance, since they are a wilderness-based society focused on nature and extremely far removed from the urban civilised light-worshipping societies of the rest of the Alliance?

No they don't fit in the alliance on the basis of their wilderness theme, but that's not all there is to them, they have this civilization side to them, and arcane, even if you didn't see it, blizzard always did, they also have this goodly honourable character, nobility, etc - even though they're from a different world.

I don't think they should have been in the alliance, they really are a faction of their own, not just based on the WC3 assets, but the whole picture, both long vigil and pre-sundering, both civilisation and forest, arcane and nature, night, star/moon stuff - the entire history, set up, it's distinctive enough for a full race with a full range of assets, faction level of depth.

But if they were to add to one faction, it would be the alliance. They are similar to how I view the Zandalari, too big to fit in the horde, but if it was one faction it would be the horde. Even now, I think the night elves should be detached mostly independent like the Zandalari, and they sort of have

Ironically removing the Nightborne from Suramar and focusing them on Shal'aran and the Arcandor would make them far closer to the Alliance Night Elves than they are now. Its exactly their return to arcane-based city-life and refusal to abandon the Highborne way of life that makes them so different from the Night Elves who abandoned all of that thousands of years ago.

Actually, if they were sticking to alliance motifs, the night elves would have received a lot of their own civilization back, and the Nightborne wouldn't be on the horde. You forget that Suramar, Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, and all the ruins about them are all Night elven, you also forget that classic started showing the night elves coming out of the Long vigil, and re-establishing themselves.

1. The first came the first city and temple in 10,000 years... this is not a forest nor a cave, this is an active move that reflects the story progression of the race. Unlike what you may want to believe, night elves were not written to be stuck only as forest elves in long vigil mode. This was made clear in their very introduction in WC3 manual, and the subsequent WotA trilogy that was 3 volume book on their civilization.

2. That was followed by in-game beginning to show you those parts of the night elves, first in the city and temple, then in the return of the highborne (see one group of them first in 1.1, then in 4.1

3. Blizzard continue to show us non-druid and non-Elune order aspects of the night elves after 4.0, which incidentally has a 4th book talking about highborne and showing the re-integration and return of daranssian highborne to rejoin the Shen'dralar. We see night elf mages in WoD (check your garrison, Ashran, Talador), and we also see demon hunters - check TBC, cata remake

4. Legion arrives showing you night elf civilization in its pristine state, are you then to assume that somehow because the Nightborne sub-race eventually goes horde that somehow Suramar is not a night elf thing or night elf lore? Do you ignore the highborne of Azsuna too, as well as the Moonguard, shown alongside a lot of night elf demon hunters (yes there are blood elf ones too, but the majority in the videos are NElf), and Druids in Val'Sharah "birthplace of druidsm" as well as WArdens, Temples and Cathedrals of Elune, and the night elf fortress Black Rook hold the focal point of the resistance in history as well as little flashback with illidan and Thalyssra in BRH and Suramar.

Even if you've never read the books which being 6 volumes long (4 heavily involving the arcane side of the night elves, one soley focused on druidsm and the Emerald dream, 1 soley focused on the Illidari) which have a ton more info on the night elves than in game) Do you still find it hard to see night elves outside druidic robes and barrow dens?


Maybe you're not basing your vision of night elves based on what is clearly been shown? Are you only focusing on the 1 event of WC3 or the levelling sequence of classic to define your impression of the entire race?

Blood Elves left the Alliance before WoW even started and fitted the (Eastern Kingdom) Horde vibe perfectly when they were introduced, unless you're suggesting that demonic dealings and reckless magic are Alliance traits?

And your stereotypes about Horde themes conveniently ignore the Forsaken who are not tribal or primitive in the slightest. I mean by the same token I can argue that Night Elves don't fit into the Alliance, since they are a wilderness-based society focused on nature and extremely far removed from the urban civilised light-worshipping societies of the rest of the Alliance?

I think you've strayed off the point I was making to Alanar based on Ravenmoon's comment that some fans' angst against highborne and by extnension high elves because a form of it exists on the horde somehow atuomatically means said night elves and the alliance lose any right, claim to have that aspect of their own lore shown - is downright silly and not what the races and sub-races are about anyway. If you are going to say that, because it's on the horde, it shouldn't be on the alliance, then you should say that for all the alliance things they've ported over to the horde which would mean Nightborne and blood elves shouldn't even be their in the first place. Please re-read and understand.

i.e. its silly and I suspect jealous bias coming out when some fans say highborne shoudlnt look like highborne are described to be because they're nighte lves or alliance, or they shouldn't have night elf cities or wielding arcane magic, for the dumbest reason because they're on the horde.. if that was true, then blood elves shouldn't even be on the horde, because high elves and high elven civilization are predominantly alliance and alliance related themes. And night elves are also that. i.e. such an argument doesn't work.

Blizzard is quite fine with giving high elves to the horde, and night elves also, just because blood elves are there, doesn't mean high elves or void elves shouldn't exist (high elves ofc came first), just because Nightborne are there doesn't mean highborne shouldn't exist or have kaldorei civilization assets and themes - the response is quite clear. Just read. Lightforged Draenei don't make Draenei redundant just because both love the light, and do tech, nor do Highmountain tauren somehow mean normal tauren shouldn't be close to nature or be shamanistic - would you then say that if LF were on the horde or Highmountain on the alliance? Ofc not, you don't even say that with void elves on the alliance.. why? cos void elves didn't get the pretty city and assets, just dumped, you have a problem if the alliance elves look good?

Is that the case? This is exactly the unreasonable bias we are talking about.

For a start the High Elves aren't Alliance-themed- they left the Alliance in WCIII. That's all that really needs to be said about that.

And as for Nightborne, again Highborne stuff has never been central to Alliance Night Elf culture- its always been shared between Blood Elves and Night Elves who both have in interest in their Highborne past but with very different attitudes towards it. Hence why in Legion we saw both Night Elves and Blood Elves get involved, and why a group like the Shen'dralar that are were willing to change were able to rejoin Night Elf society while a group like the Nightborne who wanted to carry on like before the Sundering ended up joining the Blood Elves on the Horde.

Don't get it do you, night elf stuff has never been central to the alliance, stuff central to the alliance is human stuff. Blood elf stuff has never been central to the horde, why are you jealously protecting it so?

Highborne and night elven arcane stuff has always been established from the start, and is a core part of the night elf whole. Just because this is the part blood elves come from doesn't unmake the history or make it not-night elven. Azshara isn't less night elven or part of night elf history because she became a naga or because night elves hate her. Any more than Kael'thas is less a part of blood elf history.

Just because the Darnassian kaldorei did a 10k year long vigil and have a strong nature devoted element through their druids which is a good 3rd of their identity, doesn't make the arcane nature, history and part of the night elves, nor the shen'drlaar, Farondis, Moonguard, or Suramar night elves any less a part of the night elves, nor their great arcane mastery and natural aptitutde, they don't stop having all these things a part of their race just because they've had the Long vigil. It was just not a part of the long vigil group during the long vigil - that's it... just like the Outland Mag'har were not part of the oricsh horde on Azeorth because they were not there, it doesn't make them less orcish.

Just because a story has a race having differnet parts and aspects to it, doesn't make those aspects any less a part of that race because you're not familiar with it or can't imagine it, especially when it's shown right in you face (go play cata/read Wolfheart and go play legion). Worse is that this is night elf lore.

I know it seems hard for you to understand this, but there are more than druids and Elune to night elves, the arcane is at the core of them just as nature and the goddess, and they have the history and current progression to show it. Just read their actual lore, not the gamepedia summary, which hasn't really been updated since classic. Go read the actual books. War of the Ancients Trilogy, Wolfheart and Illidan - has a lot of non night elf druids and priests.

You are right that there wouldn't be anything wrong with expending Shen'dralar style Highborne lore and customisation on the Alliance. What would be wrong however is to try and give them the same lore and customisation as the Nightborne. Not only because visually obviously there has to be some differences between the races (hence why the Nightborne were given physical changes to make them different from Night Elves), but also because lore-wise the Night Elves do not interact with their past in the same way as the Nightborne or Blood Elves do. It would be severely damaging to Night Elf lore to have then support a complete reconstruction of pre-Sundering Highborne society, and an especially bad kick in the teeth in the wake of how they've been treated in BfA.
The state of present day Blood Elf lore is a warning of what happens when you remove a key element of a race's characterisation after introducing them- its a mess.

There is nothing wrong , firstly it's not giving the Nightborne lore and customisation to them, and you are not getting that the fvast majroiry of Nightborne lore is night elf lore, the only bit that isn't is the events under the shield.. the arcane mastery, the Suramar civilisation and city, arcane magic etc, that's all also highborne and night elven.

So if the Nightborne group have all these things from the night elves, you think those very night elven things should somehow not be with the night elves?

Look at my post and Astranea's , we are posting descriptions and customisation based on night elf lore, what highborne are portrayed at. It's nothing to do with Nightborne, and it's okay if Nightborne have a large element of that, it's not mutually exclusive, Nightborne are based entirely on this aspect of night elf lore - the customisation is not going to look like the Nightborne model, it's a night elf and it shouldn't exclude the highborne atuomaitcally because the Nightborne are based off that. Anymore than highmoutnain or void elves having Tauren and blood elf cores, don't necessarily exclude those from the Tauren and blood elves.

The model is going to be different, because its skinnier, but Nightborne is the allied race, l like the void elf, who's model is even identical to the blood elf, they don't go oh we can't make the void elf anything like the blood elf, ofc, the void elf is based off of the blood elf, that's the whole point, a different group. One doesn't exclude the other.

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The same particular cadre of fans also seem to greatly despise nightborne being like night elves, and I've seen in the past go to great length to deny the two are linked and push desperate for 0 association (change their animations, stance etc, like they are in denial that Nightborne are a version of night elves, as if blizzard would bother changing that just because they can't reconcile the Nightborne as kaldorei stock or can't envision night elves outside the druid or forest hunter image - b/c they don't know or care about night elves and are ignorant of most of its lore), you can tell that it is as if being night elf isn't good enough. They complain about the horrible casting animations and night elf animations as if to say, it's fine being horrible as long as it's only the night elf, but the nightborne should have something better. I guess nightborne sharing the same model, animation, city, history , physical attributes, habits, affinities, likes and dislikes, symbolism, religion, cutlure and identity as night elves wasn't evidence enough.

Some fans just don't want night elves or any alliance elves having anything they view completely as horde elves. Not understanding the lore or how blizzard does races. And being too partisan.

It's nothing about it actually being the case. That people would take issue with a topic that is requesting night elves have a customisation to fit the highborne group that is a part of them that you can play - yet start thinking htat's too high elf or Nightborne - is false argument.

Ofc it isn't, they're j

[ravenmoon]

What's funny about the Alliance having no right to have Horde stuff is that the Zandalari are basically Night Elves done right :

An ancient civilization which has lived secluded from the rest of the world since thousands of years ? Check
A civilization which has developed a strong relation with Wild Gods ? Check
A civilization of beings taller and fiercer than their brethren in other parts of the world ? Check

But the Night Elves were never allowed to shine in WoW, as if the developers didn't knew how to make them great. Which is why, while I'm all for some Hightborn style customization, I wouldn't want it to be the norm for Kaldorei. Mages needs to remain a very distrusted and weak remnant of ages past. I'd vastly favor Blizzard fleshing out their dangerousness as soldiers and hunters, close to the natural world, than harp the Highborn looks, since they'll never be able to compete with Blood Elves and Nightborns in that regard.

And it's a testament to the sorry state of affair that has befallen the Night Elves that today, it's mostly peoples wanting them to become "more civilized" (read, more like all the other kind of Elves in WoW and elsewhere) who remains passionate about them, when people like me, who were always drawn to them because they were sauvages, ferocious and thus purer than the decadent elves elsewhere, are either silent or just so dispirited that we don't talk much noways.

It is quite a sorry state of affairs, and I've been saying it for years now, night elves are suffering from lack of in-game development. It is telling that most of their activity and lore is in novels, they are the race with the largest number of books focusing on them, 6 in total but in exchange almost nothing is changed in game. As a consequence most people don't see what the night elves are mostly about, they don't read or factor in the books, only play the game, don't read the in-game books or conversation and base their view on only part of the story. It's no wonder they really think of them as forest elves when that's just part of the identity. They would think differently if they read chornicles and all of the lore about them, rather than just leaving it to the level 1-20 zone experience and WC3 (which face it is an event that sees the night elves introduced at a stage in their development, to which books and further rlore down the line flesh out and properly contextualise) Blizzard themselves called them enigmacitc, knowing full well they were disseminating the necessary pieces of information, and full onctxts over several media, making the night elves puzzling if you only go by in-game.


Zandalari
However. Zandalari are not the night elves done right.. the night elves done right are if you combine the nightborne, with the night elves on the scale of the Zandalari using how they relate to the horde in a similar way, and expand the Priesthood of Elune to a similar reach that the Loa priests have. That is the level of depth in the night elf lore on the night elves.

• So far, only the druidic portion is done well in game.
• THe nightborne do the pre-sundering civilization well enough - but this needs to be on the night elves properly. It's like having the highmountain show more of the Tauren than in the tauren. which is ok if you're on the same faction and running with the core race, but when you aren't, the fans of the core race faction would like to have their proepr bits too.
• The Order of Elune has so many aspects to it from the novels and the littele things we saw in game - it's another part we need to see a lot of.

Basically the night elves have suffered from lack of development and largely being ignored, you're right, but the Moonguard, nightborne are core parts of the night elves that should also be part of the playable allliance lot, and their are aspects that need more light. Even the druids who've had the most coverage need more light shone on them.

That's my opinion. I don't think mages need to remain a very distrusted and weak remnant of ages past, that's not the set up of thier lore, or the direction the lore went with arcane magic, so it makes no sesnse to do that. I think a clear distinction betweeen what was wrong with the how Azshara eventually turned the mages versus how it should be done right is what needs to be shone. To annex the arcane part of the night elves out is the worse option, showing it develop right, this is what fans would much prefer.

I'm fine with night elves having diverse parts, and I would hate for them to only be forest druid types in ruins when the lore painted them as arcane masters, demon hunters, and priests inbeautiful and elegant temples, cities and forests.

[Mace]

Nobody says they should be the norm... and as a matter of facts, personally I would be happy with the Highborne skins being reserved to the mage class only, just like the Demon Hunters get their own set of fel-corrupted skins. :-)

Then again, I don't think that allowing a player to roll Wildhammer Dwarves or Blood Trolls and Dark Trolls will ever twist and change forever the overall dwarven and troll flavor. They are just meant to be playable minorities adding some color based on side-stories from the lore, and that's what the Highborne could and should be as well, if they were implemented.

They were outcasts, and they ARE a minority. I just would like them to be included in the tale, because more options are cooler than fewer options.

I think the night elf has suffered from the majority of its aspect not seen in game. So much so that when the arcane side finally made it, people don't even recognise it as night elven. This was exacerbated when they took the nightborne to the horde, and now you get Alanar and Tharivor thinking that highborne night elf stuff seen in the nightborne is nightborne only and that night elves don't have any claim to it.

Blizzard painted an expansive picture of the night elves over a 15,000 year period. to just take the WC3 part alone, or only the in game bits which aren't updated and take vorever to come is not representative of what most of the race is, given that (as pointed out earlier) they have 6 books based on them which is a lot of lore outside the game.

Furthermore, if people actually follow the lore they show when they actually update night elves in 4.0 and 7.0 - they will see a far more even representation between their arcane, nature, priestly and demon hunter sides, as blizzard brings out other aspects of the night elves that are very much part of them but have largely been in books.

It is so dishonest when I see fans try to paint the night elf lore and history as somehow not night elven because its in the past - i mean who does that. My history and m yorigin and make up is not mine because it happened in the past and you're use to only seeing one or 2 of my sides? But I agree with you as well, in that whether a minor part or a major part (which we can debate forever), it is an important part that needs visualisation.

[Manariel]

It is quite a sorry state of affairs, and I've been saying it for years now, night elves are suffering from lack of in-game development. It is telling that most of their activity and lore is in novels, they are the race with the largest number of books focusing on them, 6 in total but in exchange almost nothing is changed in game. As a consequence most people don't see what the night elves are mostly about, they don't read or factor in the books, only play the game, don't read the in-game books or conversation and base their view on only part of the story. It's no wonder they really think of them as forest elves when that's just part of the identity. They would think differently if they read chornicles and all of the lore about them, rather than just leaving it to the level 1-20 zone experience and WC3 (which face it is an event that sees the night elves introduced at a stage in their development, to which books and further rlore down the line flesh out and properly contextualise) Blizzard themselves called them enigmacitc, knowing full well they were disseminating the necessary pieces of information, and full onctxts over several media, making the night elves puzzling if you only go by in-game.


Zandalari
However. Zandalari are not the night elves done right.. the night elves done right are if you combine the nightborne, with the night elves on the scale of the Zandalari using how they relate to the horde in a similar way, and expand the Priesthood of Elune to a similar reach that the Loa priests have. That is the level of depth in the night elf lore on the night elves.

• So far, only the druidic portion is done well in game.
• THe nightborne do the pre-sundering civilization well enough - but this needs to be on the night elves properly. It's like having the highmountain show more of the Tauren than in the tauren. which is ok if you're on the same faction and running with the core race, but when you aren't, the fans of the core race faction would like to have their proepr bits too.
• The Order of Elune has so many aspects to it from the novels and the littele things we saw in game - it's another part we need to see a lot of.

Basically the night elves have suffered from lack of development and largely being ignored, you're right, but the Moonguard, nightborne are core parts of the night elves that should also be part of the playable allliance lot, and their are aspects that need more light. Even the druids who've had the most coverage need more light shone on them.

That's my opinion. I don't think mages need to remain a very distrusted and weak remnant of ages past, that's not the set up of thier lore, or the direction the lore went with arcane magic, so it makes no sesnse to do that. I think a clear distinction betweeen what was wrong with the how Azshara eventually turned the mages versus how it should be done right is what needs to be shone. To annex the arcane part of the night elves out is the worse option, showing it develop right, this is what fans would much prefer.

I'm fine with night elves having diverse parts, and I would hate for them to only be forest druid types in ruins when the lore painted them as arcane masters, demon hunters, and priests inbeautiful and elegant temples, cities and forests.

We have a fundamental disagreement here. The Kaldorei are not and must not be like the Nightborns or the Blood Elves. In any way, shape or form. It runs contrary to what made them great. They can have mages, but for them, the pre-Sundering civilization should remain a cautionary tale of hubris leading to world's end. I know you really love that aspect of the ancient Kaldorei, but it's a legacy that the Night Elves of today have thorougly rejected. What they need, IMHO, is not a return to this era, at all.

Quite the contrary, it's en emphasis of the wonders that they have achieved without the use of arcane magic. They are highly civilized but they eschew magic and while arrogant in some way, they are not decadent like all the other elves are.

Sadly, Blizzard took them toward the "primitive" when they removed almost all which made them a faction on equal footing with the Horde and Alliance. But even today, a new capital city for the Kaldorei could be incredible with just trees. Just imagine a whole city-sized zone, where players never touch the ground, where the streets are a maze of branches and various buildings are wholly intgrated in the trees, not trees roughly shaped like buildings. With some work and innovation, it would be absolutely stunning.

Think of a truly grandiose Temple of Elune, made not of marble, but of various trees which have grown and formed a canopy, their bark adorned with symbols of elune, as their branchs allow the light of the Mother Moon to pass through their leaves, while Moonwells glow in the underbush...

Alas, Blizzard did such a poor job with the Kaldorei while showing off the decadent splendors of the other elves so great that we are few who seems to remain and love the real Kaldorei, who whistood the Long Vigil and sacrificed all they had to stop the Legion...

And I don't begrudge you guys. You clearly love the Night Elves. But not the Night Elves I love. I truly hated Suramar, I found this zone absolutely horrible to navigate, with an horrible storyline, and terrible denizens. I was upset that they went Horde because I knew it'd be used to make the Night Elves even more pathetic by Blizzard, probably unwillingly. And I've never liked Silvermoon and the surrounding zones, for the same reasons.

I fell in love with the Warcraft III Kaldorei, the perfect blend of feorcity, honor and dedication to the Greater Good, even if they could be misguided at times. I want to see those Night Elves resplendent, able to look at the other kinds of elves to tell them that they are pathetic in their devotion to the Arcane. Alas, nowadays, peoples are calling them tree huggers, hillbillies and the like instead.

[ravenmoon]

We have a fundamental disagreement here. The Kaldorei are not and must not be like the Nightborns or the Blood Elves.

Yes we have a total disagreement here.

1. They are not like the blood elves. They are their own group with a full range of complex lore and make up -
2. There is overlap - they are all ELVES for a reason


Night elves are not some separate totally different race of elves to blood elves. They were NEVER designed that way.. if you want to make it so, you don't call them elves, or link them.

They are going to have similarities and cross overs, but they are going to each be their own unique thing. And I think this is achieved with what we have currently.

Nightborne ARE part of the night elven family, they are based ENTIRELY on the Kaldorei, their highborne and pre-sundering traditions. They have their own unique story under the shield which makes them their own people, just like void elves have their own unique story that sets them apart, and so do Highmountain. If you think Nightborne are more than this, you're not understanding what blizzard is doing with allied races, and you are not seeing the full picture of the night elves.

In any way, shape or form. It runs contrary to what made them great. They can have mages, but for them, the pre-Sundering civilization should remain a cautionary tale of hubris leading to world's end. I know you really love that aspect of the ancient Kaldorei, but it's a legacy that the Night Elves of today have thorougly rejected. What they need, IMHO, is not a return to this era, at all.

Once again, says who? What is a night elf? One event? One era? Or is it not what they have designed them to be and collectively shown. Are night elves frozen and stuck in WC3 which was just an event? or in the Long vigil era? No !

Have we not seen night elves been shown to quite clearly have other aspects outside the female warrior pirest and druid we first met? Not only in the lore books but in game. ARe not highborne, the arcane, the Well of Eternity, the Moonwells, the pre-sundering civilization, Illidan, the demon hunters, Black Rook hold, Suramar - ALL part of the night elves too? So we should say they SHOULD NOT be what they ARE presented to be? Or should you reconsider what you think they are? Look at what the game and lore has shown you?

Quite the contrary, it's en emphasis of the wonders that they have achieved without the use of arcane magic. They are highly civilized but they eschew magic and while arrogant in some way, they are not decadent like all the other elves are.

The whole magic or not magic, responsible versus irresponsible are all part of the night elf story. This is part of their racial dynamic. It's not the blood elves tha tare the irresponsible maigc users and the night elves the non-magic users. No, the recklessness of the highborne is part of the night elf story, the ban on arcane magic to prevent the Legion returning is also part of the same night elf story, the Well of Eternity is part of the night elf story, the arcane affinity and creation from it is part of the Night elf story. The return of the use of magic, befriending humans/draenei, the highborne caste - it's all part of their story.


There is overlap with the High elves, because, THEY ARE CONNECTED. They are elves. But the high elves have their own story, they would have similar things, this includes love of nature and forestry, it includes great magical aptitude, and magical civilzations, whether most of the night elves are in their past or not, whether the night elves have started rebuilding that part of their civilization (which they have as Darnassus showed, and later the efforts to reclaim and restore Eldre'thalas) or not.

Have you never considered that you are failing to consider that night elves have greatly contrasting themes juxtaposed on each other and it is a common feature of the race done intentionally as part of "this is what we will do with night elves"?

Consider that maybe blizzard design their races, build their stories based on that, and run the course with them. Absolutely nature, arcane, Elune are all part of the night elves, and fel too.. they show up in the night elf way based on how the night elf story is told. It's not going to be like it does with the blood elves, it doesn't have to be, the blood elves have their own story, there will be times there is overlap, other times great divulgence, this is how you write and build races up.

Sadly, Blizzard took them toward the "primitive" when they removed almost all which made them a faction on equal footing with the Horde and Alliance. But even today, a new capital city for the Kaldorei could be incredible with just trees. Just imagine a whole city-sized zone, where players never touch the ground, where the streets are a maze of branches and various buildings are wholly intgrated in the trees, not trees roughly shaped like buildings. With some work and innovation, it would be absolutely stunning.

No doubt it would or could be stunning, but that has not been the whole of the night elves.. It never has been. We should be careful of importing other franchise elves to warcrafts own and not factoring what blizzard has made their own elves to be.

Blizzard designed and intended the night elf to be a combination of the best of the magical dark elves and the nature loving forest elves
https://web.archive.org/web/20010205...667651,00.html

THey have said as much, and showed as much, both in the history of the night elves and their two major eras, and how they progressed the night elves in the current era. Did you not notice the Teldrassil was a huge tree, but Darnassus was a proper night city based in a tree? not a tree city? Why? because trees is not all their is to night elves, never was. The druid part of the night elves has that. So when they showed druid homes and places in Val'Sharah, that's all they were. Night elves in the long vigil did not use the arcane so that's how they built, so you see that, night elves in the pre-sundering era, used the arcane with nature together, and built things that were far more breathtaking, you also see the ruins of those that came about from the destruction of the legion.

But when they start their new era, coming out isolation, no need for a long vigil, they start rebuilding their own stuff, they look to restore their own civilizaiotn, Temples of Elune like in the pre-sundering era, restoration of Eldre'thalas etc. What is that telling you? It tells me night elves have cities and arcane magic as well as forests and nature magic, and both are part of night elves.

I don't feel night elves should only be massive sprawling tree homes, because I am paying attention to what blizzard has shown ngiht elves to be and the story they've told about them from WC3 manual to present. And it shows me arcane, nature, fel, priestly , night, moon, stars, forest in both high and low state. THis is an incredibly long lived people, and they have the appropriate lore to match.

Think of a truly grandiose Temple of Elune, made not of marble, but of various trees which have grown and formed a canopy, their bark adorned with symbols of elune, as their branchs allow the light of the Mother Moon to pass through their leaves, while Moonwells glow in the underbush...

Could be wonderful, but that's not what the night elves have. Besides, the Temples of Elune, especially the Cathedral of Eternal night are quite amazing as they are. Something like what you're describing can be placed for a forest peoples race. Like one of those peoples from Ardenweald in shadowlands or the dryads/keeper half elves. They could be that. Just like the Worgen are the feral savage race another bunch of mostly horde fans want night elves to be. When you look at the night elf fans, most actually quite like that night elves have priests, druids, and mages, they like different aspects, some like all the aspects, some are Illidari demon hunter types, some are arcane highborne/mage magic types, some are tree hugger nature lover types, some are female warrior types, and you have sometimes fans competing saying night elves should be the one they like the most. But night elves are all those things.

Their lore is made rich and diverse. They are meant to be an epic race. WC3 manual describes them as titanic.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/

Alas, Blizzard did such a poor job with the Kaldorei while showing off the decadent splendors of the other elves so great that we are few who seems to remain and love the real Kaldorei, who whistood the Long Vigil and sacrificed all they had to stop the Legion...

I get that, I really do. I love that about the night elves, but we see things differently. TO me, the current night elves, including the highborne, are valiant, not given to the reckless mistakes of the past, but maintain their true identity, and have learnt from their mistakes.

To me, having a city or wielding arcane magic is not a mistake, nor is having rich, intricate and beautiful things either. That's not the moral of the story. It's not magic that was the problem, but reckless abuse of it. it's not beautiful cities and civilizaiton that hated, and those things didn't fall because they were those things, it's the attitude of arrogance and addiction that led to that.

So in my book, I feel the night elven highborne group are a civilization loving group, that love magic but hate the reckless mistakes of the past they are keen not to repeat. It's not the magic the night elves hated, but their hubris. You don't mourn a civilization so greatly if you hated it and hated cities etc. That's not the story been told. And now it's been 10k years since all that, and the duty of the long vigil is ended. THe night elves of Warcraft have not been written to have turned into some green blooded, green skinned, nature forest elves, called Tree-dorei or the Forest-dorei, they are still called and remain the Kaldorei - the full original elf, embodying and spanning several aspects that blizzard has shown us about them.

And I don't begrudge you guys. You clearly love the Night Elves. But not the Night Elves I love. I truly hated Suramar, I found this zone absolutely horrible to navigate, with an horrible storyline, and terrible denizens. I was upset that they went Horde because I knew it'd be used to make the Night Elves even more pathetic by Blizzard, probably unwillingly. And I've never liked Silvermoon and the surrounding zones, for the same reasons.

I fell in love with the Warcraft III Kaldorei, the perfect blend of feorcity, honor and dedication to the Greater Good, even if they could be misguided at times. I want to see those Night Elves resplendent, able to look at the other kinds of elves to tell them that they are pathetic in their devotion to the Arcane. Alas, nowadays, peoples are calling them tree huggers, hillbillies and the like instead.

It's okay to hate Suramar, many people did, but it was questing there most people hated. I hated the attitude of the Nightborne in Suramar, it is how the night elves were in invasion period of the pre-sundering era. However I loved the city immensely and thought it was finally a visual representation that matched the lore and novels description of the fabled night elf civilizaiton. A true night city and realised well

The modern night elf I can easily see occupying their cities again, I don't see them becoming like the naga or how they were in that stage. Because they've learnt a tough lesson. That lesson has nothing to do with cities and the use of arcane magic..but everything to do with the attitude and recklessness of wielding very powerful forces without proper respect.

If you read WotA, which was commissioned when WC3 was been designed, and released afterwards, you would see that Suramar is lifted from the Suramar in those pages. Because blizzard was wanting to show you more of the night elf race, their history. This is how night elves use to behave. This doesn't mean that night elves don't do cities or don't do arcane magic. SOme don't, but some do, in the past, they had horrible attitude that became stark contrast with their beautiful forms and surroundings.

The elves that were most like that got turned into forms that reflected that - Satyr and Naga, and ended up creating habitats that marched the degeneration they had sunk to. A fitting fate if you ask me.

Meanwhile, what shall it be said of those who remained faithful and did right? Should they never recover or rebuild? Well for a while the Long vigil cause , tha tera demanded a cessation, but now that it's ended, some night elves will restore and rebuild (highborne/temple priest types), some would remain in the forests (druids, hunter priest types). It's okay to have several things and parts. Big races are not meant to be only about one thing.

You love forests, the druids and hunters are there for you. Love cities and temples, the highborne and preists are there for you.

The way night elves do those things are very different from how blood elves do. And Nightborne are a reflection of night elves, just as void elves are of blood elves or Highmountain of Tauren, or Lightforged of Draenei.

Warcaraft has defined its night elves quite extensively, you may want a pure forest race, but until blizzard provides one, you have the druids. You may want a pure savage feral race, but that's not night elves, you have worgen. Sentinels and Demon hunters have a savage ferocity to them, so you can live out that part. You may want a pure city/magic race of elves, that is not on the alliance, but the night elves do have highborne which have that aspect of the night elves to them, so you can enjoy that. otherwise you would have switch faction and use the Nightborne - but hey, you spend most of your time around the world, so it's a bit pointless.

[Beloren]

Pretty much. Although strictly speaking, all trolls were Zandalari, then different groups emerged and broke off, devolving into what they are to day, it's more like night elves and high elves. Night elves are like the Zandalari, high elvs are like the oother troll tribes. Although their fates are quite different.

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And this is why we shouldn't give the horde, alliance things, they would start insisting that none of it should be on the alliance at all and the alliance has no right to it.. Well said. <Looks at the high elf discussion>. People are so caught up in taking faction sides, they're losing perspective on the bigger picture, descending into, "it's on my faction, therefore it belongs to me - you can't have it, or you shouldn't have it" which really makes no sense if they think about it or observe what blizzard do with the races.

@Alanar , Look, if you really want to force an alliance shouldn't have horde stuff - then you have to:
1. Actually acknowledge the reverse is true, which if we back up a little means nightborne shouldn’t be on the horde even in the first place.
2. If you still then give races like blood elves and nightborne on the horde, then they should fit the horde vibe more essentially, i.e. more war based centric, survival mode..
a) the blood elves should be more like they were in the Netherstorm, no high society , cities and civilization because that' s an alliance thing typically, we should see more of hunter side and ranger stuff, less magic, that's predominantly alliance too and has been amply shown on both night elves and high elves historically.
b) Nightborne if on the horde should be in their Nightfallen resistance state of affairs, based in a cave, not city, exiled and outcast, having to fend for themselves and needing like the other horde races -

Therefore horde versions blood elves and nightborne shouldn't be getting the more alliance themed core civilization of the night elves and high elves - but I don't see you suggesting that. All of a sudden it's wrong "or too similar" only when the alliance want their elves developed - it seems only the horde should have that because according to you, blizzard has alredy done that on the horde, so despite even night elves core being alliance, oh no, by you, they shouldn't have any of their racial stuff that's already been shown on the horde - even though, when it was shown, it was not on the horde at all, only later was it given.

All of which completely ignores that. As soon as blizzard started mixing races between the factions, it made it quite clear that night elf stuff isn't exclusively belonging to the alliance, so why then should any Nightborne stuff (that's ngiht elven anyway) somehow exclusively be with horde? Same with the blood/void elves

As said above, that isn't the point of races, Nightborne existence is not meant to lock all night elven arcane and civilization whether pre-sundering, highborne, Moonguard or otherwise to the horde, just because the sub-race was given to the faction. Nightborne, like Highmountain, Dark Iron, Lightforged, Mag'har are just the story of another group of the same core race that look a little different, sometimes they vary a lot, sometimes they're quite similar or just a part, it doesn't mean night elves and highborne should get no development, and "lose" their civilization side.

Even if it might seem unreasonable, you can see where they are coming from. Elven cities, magic are already done on the horde with the blood elves, wouldn't it be better to do something else on the night elves? So they just don't want the same thing on the night elves.

[Tharivor]

Highly debatable -- dude, the highborne joined the night elves in cataclysm, and the caste is now accepted and revived amongst the Darnassians - it's not a highly debatable. we're not talking about high elves.

It's not about theme either, hihgborne are night elves, night elves are night elves, you are confusing the long vigil and druidic theme and categorising the entire race by it. you are judging things only on what you selectively asee and interprete rather than the information you are given.

Modern Kaldorei, ancient kaldorei, druid kaldorei, highborne kaldorei, Moon Priest kaldorei, Illidari Kaldorei, ruins, pristine cities, forests, ruined forests - it's ALL night elf. THe night elves aren't characterised by humble druids in Barrow dens that shapeshift into animals, that's just one part of them. You don't just washout and ignore every other thing you consistently told and shown to force your own view. Highly debatable indeed, when it's right infront of you. Or do you not realise the night elf mage we play isn't a hypothetical highly debatable highborne that we must ponder or debate whether they have ever been part of the Alliance.

If you want to only see nature and Elune long vigil night elves, and ignore half of the other lore, both in the novels and in the game. Be my guest, don't expect any of us who actually know the lore to agree with you .

A small group of Highborne assimilating into Long Vigil Night Elf society and teaching a small number of lowborn nature-worshipping Night Elves (player mages) moderate use of the arcane does not suddenly make Highborne themes central to Night Elf society, just like the addition to Dark Iron Warlocks and Wildhammer Shamans teaching the Bronzebeards in Cata didn't lead to the Ironforge Dwarves abandoning their previous culture and becoming identical to the aforementioned groups.

The fact that playable Alliance Night Elf culture in primarily Long Vigil Elune/Nature worship based (with minority exceptions such as Demon Hunters and the Shendralar) is not something I've made up- its the sole way that playable Night Elves have been depicted in every iteration of WoW from WCIII to BfA. Suramar was the first time we had ever seen intact pre-Sundering Highborne culture, and the fact that Tyrande and the Night Elves treated them with suspicion if not outright hostility proves that the modern Night Elves haven't lost their traditional values despite the entry of the Shendralar.

There is nothing wrong with this by the way- the Alliance Night Elves are awesome in their own right if written properly (which unfortunately they have not been in BfA). Tyrande, Malfurion, and the modern nature-focused Night Elf faction should be allowed to flourish in their own right, not forced to abandon their traditional values and accept those of the Nightborne

[Mace]

Even if it might seem unreasonable, you can see where they are coming from. Elven cities, magic are already done on the horde with the blood elves, wouldn't it be better to do something else on the night elves? So they just don't want the same thing on the night elves.

But you don't play night elves, or care much about them, why would you care whether they have something different? they're not on the same faction even.

And blood elves have forests and hunting etc, does that mean forests and hunting shouldn't be on the night elves too? the statement is inherently biased and leading.

Night elves have their own version of forests, their own version of arcane magic, their own version of priesthood, their own version of cities. The night elf and high elf aren't made to be 2 completely separate and totally different races. This is why they are called elves.

This really is people not wanting their rival faction to have stuff as beautiful or potentially better than theirs. they're so happy the nightborne are on the horde or they'd be aching with jealousy. Which is all silly, because places like Suramar have and are a part of night elf lore and have been so since the very beginning. So no point.

It's not as if blizzard is suddenly deciding this is what night elves is about. They've written and laid out night elves from the very stuff, across 3 games and many books and other materials, it's not a surprise, we should know by now.

Anyone expecting night elves to not have a civilization or arcane magic because blood elves already have one are being dis-ingenious, it's like saying Forsaken wouldn't have one because humans do

[Tharivor]

No they don't fit in the alliance on the basis of their wilderness theme, but that's not all there is to them, they have this civilization side to them, and arcane, even if you didn't see it, blizzard always did, they also have this goodly honourable character, nobility, etc - even though they're from a different world.

I don't think they should have been in the alliance, they really are a faction of their own, not just based on the WC3 assets, but the whole picture, both long vigil and pre-sundering, both civilisation and forest, arcane and nature, night, star/moon stuff - the entire history, set up, it's distinctive enough for a full race with a full range of assets, faction level of depth.

But if they were to add to one faction, it would be the alliance. They are similar to how I view the Zandalari, too big to fit in the horde, but if it was one faction it would be the horde. Even now, I think the night elves should be detached mostly independent like the Zandalari, and they sort of have.

I agree on the noble character part, but disagree on everything else. All the pre-sundering stuff is just that- pre-sundering. The Night Elves deliberately chose not to continue those parts of their society and there is no indication they regret that at all. Its wrong in my opinion to fundamentally trash the central theme of a race that they've had since their introduction in the WoW universe- if you want to play a pre-Sundering Highborne why not just play Nightborne and let those who want to play Night Elves as they were introduced in WCIII do that?

Actually, if they were sticking to alliance motifs, the night elves would have received a lot of their own civilization back, and the Nightborne wouldn't be on the horde. You forget that Suramar, Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, and all the ruins about them are all Night elven, you also forget that classic started showing the night elves coming out of the Long vigil, and re-establishing themselves.

1. The first came the first city and temple in 10,000 years... this is not a forest nor a cave, this is an active move that reflects the story progression of the race. Unlike what you may want to believe, night elves were not written to be stuck only as forest elves in long vigil mode. This was made clear in their very introduction in WC3 manual, and the subsequent WotA trilogy that was 3 volume book on their civilization.

2. That was followed by in-game beginning to show you those parts of the night elves, first in the city and temple, then in the return of the highborne (see one group of them first in 1.1, then in 4.1

The ruins are just that- ruins. Darnassus is also very obviously a Long-Vigil style city- nearly all the buildings are entirely made out of wood, with Long-Vigil Ashenvale style architecture rather than anything Highborne themed. The Temple of Elune is the only exception to this and even that has plants growing inside. The Night Elves were very clearly and obviously depicted as maintaining their nature-worshipping culture and anything else is just head canon. And this is not called being "stuck"- its called having a racial theme and every race in WoW has one.

3. Blizzard continue to show us non-druid and non-Elune order aspects of the night elves after 4.0, which incidentally has a 4th book talking about highborne and showing the re-integration and return of daranssian highborne to rejoin the Shen'dralar. We see night elf mages in WoD (check your garrison, Ashran, Talador), and we also see demon hunters - check TBC, cata remake.

Both of those were very clearly shown as existing as small distrusted minorities in wider traditional Night Elf society. We don't see any Highborne style architecture or culture anywhere from Cata onwards- we see a few mages and demon hunters sure but far far outnumbered by Sentinels, Priestesses, and Druids who still have all the leadership roles.

4. Legion arrives showing you night elf civilization in its pristine state, are you then to assume that somehow because the Nightborne sub-race eventually goes horde that somehow Suramar is not a night elf thing or night elf lore? Do you ignore the highborne of Azsuna too, as well as the Moonguard, shown alongside a lot of night elf demon hunters (yes there are blood elf ones too, but the majority in the videos are NElf), and Druids in Val'Sharah "birthplace of druidsm" as well as WArdens, Temples and Cathedrals of Elune, and the night elf fortress Black Rook hold the focal point of the resistance in history as well as little flashback with illidan and Thalyssra in BRH and Suramar.

Of course the Nightborne storyline is part of Night Elf lore- Tyrande plays a prominent role in it. But it doesn't show the Night Elves wanting to go back to pre-Sundering Highborne society, but actually the opposite- Tyrande deliberately chooses to maintain her values and look down in disdain on Nightborne society. This would be true regardless of what faction they joined- even if they went Alliance they would have to be a separate race apart from the other Night Elves because Tyrande still rejects their society.
The Azuna, Black Rook, and Cathedral of Elune Highborne are all ghosts and ruins. The Wardens are not arcane Highborne magic suers but exactly the opposite- hardcore devotees of traditional Elune-worshipping anti-arcane Night Elf culture.
Valsharah is the only zone that has large numbers of alive modern Night Elves in it and they are just as nature devoted as their Kalimdor brethren.

Even if you've never read the books which being 6 volumes long (4 heavily involving the arcane side of the night elves, one soley focused on druidsm and the Emerald dream, 1 soley focused on the Illidari) which have a ton more info on the night elves than in game) Do you still find it hard to see night elves outside druidic robes and barrow dens?

Maybe you're not basing your vision of night elves based on what is clearly been shown? Are you only focusing on the 1 event of WC3 or the levelling sequence of classic to define your impression of the entire race?

I don't have a "vision" of the Night Elves- I'm just stating exactly how they've consistently been depicted in game from WCIII onward. You seem to have decided that what has been shown in game is somehow incomplete and want to add elements from Night Elf history that have long since ceased to be living parts of mainstream Night Elf society.

I think you've strayed off the point I was making to Alanar based on Ravenmoon's comment that some fans' angst against highborne and by extnension high elves because a form of it exists on the horde somehow atuomatically means said night elves and the alliance lose any right, claim to have that aspect of their own lore shown - is downright silly and not what the races and sub-races are about anyway. If you are going to say that, because it's on the horde, it shouldn't be on the alliance, then you should say that for all the alliance things they've ported over to the horde which would mean Nightborne and blood elves shouldn't even be their in the first place. Please re-read and understand.

i.e. its silly and I suspect jealous bias coming out when some fans say highborne shoudlnt look like highborne are described to be because they're nighte lves or alliance, or they shouldn't have night elf cities or wielding arcane magic, for the dumbest reason because they're on the horde.. if that was true, then blood elves shouldn't even be on the horde, because high elves and high elven civilization are predominantly alliance and alliance related themes. And night elves are also that. i.e. such an argument doesn't work.

I agree that Horde/Alliance concerns are not the main issue here. The biggest problem is that adding all this arcane stuff to modern Night Elves would destroy the entirely the modern Night Elf lore and theme and would be wrong just because of the damage it does to Night Elf lore more than anything else.

That said now that the Nightborne have been introduced as a playable race, giving their theme to the Night Elves would also damage them as well and would be wrong. This is regardless of which faction they are on- even if they were on the Alliance it would not be fair for Night Elf or Nightborne players to give all the Nightborne themes to the Night Elves and destroy the traditional Night Elf theme in the process.

Blizzard is quite fine with giving high elves to the horde, and night elves also, just because blood elves are there, doesn't mean high elves or void elves shouldn't exist (high elves ofc came first), just because Nightborne are there doesn't mean highborne shouldn't exist or have kaldorei civilization assets and themes - the response is quite clear. Just read. Lightforged Draenei don't make Draenei redundant just because both love the light, and do tech, nor do Highmountain tauren somehow mean normal tauren shouldn't be close to nature or be shamanistic - would you then say that if LF were on the horde or Highmountain on the alliance? Ofc not, you don't even say that with void elves on the alliance.. why? cos void elves didn't get the pretty city and assets, just dumped, you have a problem if the alliance elves look good?

Is that the case? This is exactly the unreasonable bias we are talking about.

Of all the examples you gave only the Lightforged Draenei make sense, since I agree they are weirdly similar to vanilla Draenei. All the other races were deliberately given twists to differentiate them from their parent races, and Nightborne are no exception.

Don't get it do you, night elf stuff has never been central to the alliance, stuff central to the alliance is human stuff. Blood elf stuff has never been central to the horde, why are you jealously protecting it so?

Highborne and night elven arcane stuff has always been established from the start, and is a core part of the night elf whole. Just because this is the part blood elves come from doesn't unmake the history or make it not-night elven. Azshara isn't less night elven or part of night elf history because she became a naga or because night elves hate her. Any more than Kael'thas is less a part of blood elf history.

Just because the Darnassian kaldorei did a 10k year long vigil and have a strong nature devoted element through their druids which is a good 3rd of their identity, doesn't make the arcane nature, history and part of the night elves, nor the shen'drlaar, Farondis, Moonguard, or Suramar night elves any less a part of the night elves, nor their great arcane mastery and natural aptitutde, they don't stop having all these things a part of their race just because they've had the Long vigil. It was just not a part of the long vigil group during the long vigil - that's it... just like the Outland Mag'har were not part of the oricsh horde on Azeorth because they were not there, it doesn't make them less orcish.

Just because a story has a race having differnet parts and aspects to it, doesn't make those aspects any less a part of that race because you're not familiar with it or can't imagine it, especially when it's shown right in you face (go play cata/read Wolfheart and go play legion). Worse is that this is night elf lore.

I know it seems hard for you to understand this, but there are more than druids and Elune to night elves, the arcane is at the core of them just as nature and the goddess, and they have the history and current progression to show it. Just read their actual lore, not the gamepedia summary, which hasn't really been updated since classic. Go read the actual books. War of the Ancients Trilogy, Wolfheart and Illidan - has a lot of non night elf druids and priests.

You are confusing Night Elf history with present day Night Elf society. We never see a single arcane-wielding Highborne accepted in modern Night Elf society until Cataclysm, and even then they remain a small minority. We never see real intact Highborne architecture or culture alive in modern Night Elf civilisation, as shown by the fact that Suramar was so radically different from anything we had seen before.

By the logic you are using here we should add Highborne customisation to the Blood Elves as well (since the Highborne are literally their ancestors), add Light-worshipping paladins to the Forsaken, give prelates of Rezan to the Darkspear, and all sorts of other nonsense. Just because something exists in a race's history does not mean its thematically appropriate to force it on the race in the present- particularly if it doesn't make lore-sense, like for the Night Elves whose leader even as late as Legion still openly disapproves of Highborne society

There is nothing wrong , firstly it's not giving the Nightborne lore and customisation to them, and you are not getting that the fvast majroiry of Nightborne lore is night elf lore, the only bit that isn't is the events under the shield.. the arcane mastery, the Suramar civilisation and city, arcane magic etc, that's all also highborne and night elven.

So if the Nightborne group have all these things from the night elves, you think those very night elven things should somehow not be with the night elves?

This is all well and good, but the Nightborne already exist now as a separate playable race. So clearly Blizzard didn't feel that these aspects of the Night Elf past were part of their present, so they chose to make these themes into a new race. Trying to backtrack and shove those themes into the Night Elves doesn't really work.

Look at my post and Astranea's , we are posting descriptions and customisation based on night elf lore, what highborne are portrayed at. It's nothing to do with Nightborne, and it's okay if Nightborne have a large element of that, it's not mutually exclusive, Nightborne are based entirely on this aspect of night elf lore - the customisation is not going to look like the Nightborne model, it's a night elf and it shouldn't exclude the highborne atuomaitcally because the Nightborne are based off that. Anymore than highmoutnain or void elves having Tauren and blood elf cores, don't necessarily exclude those from the Tauren and blood elves.

The model is going to be different, because its skinnier, but Nightborne is the allied race, l like the void elf, who's model is even identical to the blood elf, they don't go oh we can't make the void elf anything like the blood elf, ofc, the void elf is based off of the blood elf, that's the whole point, a different group. One doesn't exclude the other.

I actually don't mind this. As long as there are cultural differences as well, such as these new Highborne only using their magic in moderation and still participating in mainstream nature-worshipping Night Elf society, I can see this working. Tyrande obviously rejected the decadent Highborne culture we see in Suramar but her acceptance of the Shendralar shows she is willing to tolerate them if they know their place and don't become dependant on the arcane.