Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (NOT High Elves)

[Mace]

A small group of Highborne assimilating into Long Vigil Night Elf society and teaching a small number of lowborn nature-worshipping Night Elves (player mages) moderate use of the arcane does not suddenly make Highborne themes central to Night Elf society, just like the addition to Dark Iron Warlocks and Wildhammer Shamans teaching the Bronzebeards in Cata didn't lead to the Ironforge Dwarves abandoning their previous culture and becoming identical to the aforementioned groups.

The fact that playable Alliance Night Elf culture in primarily Long Vigil Elune/Nature worship based (with minority exceptions such as Demon Hunters and the Shendralar) is not something I've made up- its the sole way that playable Night Elves have been depicted in every iteration of WoW from WCIII to BfA. Suramar was the first time we had ever seen intact pre-Sundering Highborne culture, and the fact that Tyrande and the Night Elves treated them with suspicion if not outright hostility proves that the modern Night Elves haven't lost their traditional values despite the entry of the Shendralar.

There is nothing wrong with this by the way- the Alliance Night Elves are awesome in their own right if written properly (which unfortunately they have not been in BfA). Tyrande, Malfurion, and the modern nature-focused Night Elf faction should be allowed to flourish in their own right, not forced to abandon their traditional values and accept those of the Nightborne

Well, I don't think I'm trying to make the arcane or highborne the central part of the playable night elves..showing it and they are a core part of the night elves and pointing out where, how and the evidence of this in the lore only shows that this is a relevant part, not the main theme. The night elves have a duality theme, it isn't totally obvious. But if you only base them on what you see and don't factor in the written lore, you won't see it. Yet at BFA, there is enough in game for you to see, and you should know by now, that just because blizzard hasn't updated their focus on any particular group doesn't mean they aren't a core or significant part regardless of their numbers.

• Numbers? Does the size of the group change anything about what I've said or the history of the night elves?
• Does the size of the group somehow remove from night elves their magical capability ?
• Does the number of demon hunters make that aspect any less night elven based, or part of night elf lore?

You can be small and very influential, powerful or loved. It doesn't change or alter your significance or the lore.

• How many Night elves are there now after WoT orf any group?
• Do you know how many Shen'dralar highborne there are?
• Do you know how many former highborne amongst the Darnassians returned to the caste after the ban?
• Do you know how many new novice night elves signed up?

DO you remember how long it took for blizzard to show even night elf hunters and wardens.. it took till Legion and BFA, before you saw some of the Wc3 units. Most of wow was night elves in classic presentation un=updated. It is is significant that the major updates they showed of them when they did update them in 6 year gaps had highborne and the arcane playing as large a role as druids and priests. Check cata, check Legion. And as for night elf units, you see a lot of night elf mages with the alliance and kirin't tor in WoD and Legion as wella s many other types of night elves.


Playable alliance night elf culture as far as I know has been shown to include, preistes, druids, thighborne, ilildari.

Why is that? Playable night elves are preresenting everything the night elves are. What their group focuses on mainly is part of an ongoing story, but that doesn't change the various aspects fo the ngiht elf race.

So players who play playable night elves, and playable highborne, who want a customisation that fits that aspect of the lore, wehther it's currently a small b it or it's a major bit, I think are within their right to desire it.

Whether small or large, it is a sginifciant part of the night elves. Are you sure you're not determining the relevance and necessity of this part based on wahty uo've seen alone. Do you at least see and concede that the arcane, the highborne, arcane wielding night elves, night elf civilization are all significant parts ot he night elves and their story race.

[ravenmoon]

But you don't play night elves, or care much about them, why would you care whether they have something different? they're not on the same faction even.

And blood elves have forests and hunting etc, does that mean forests and hunting shouldn't be on the night elves too? the statement is inherently biased and leading.

Night elves have their own version of forests, their own version of arcane magic, their own version of priesthood, their own version of cities. The night elf and high elf aren't made to be 2 completely separate and totally different races. This is why they are called elves.

This really is people not wanting their rival faction to have stuff as beautiful or potentially better than theirs. they're so happy the nightborne are on the horde or they'd be aching with jealousy. Which is all silly, because places like Suramar have and are a part of night elf lore and have been so since the very beginning. So no point.

It's not as if blizzard is suddenly deciding this is what night elves is about. They've written and laid out night elves from the very stuff, across 3 games and many books and other materials, it's not a surprise, we should know by now.

Anyone expecting night elves to not have a civilization or arcane magic because blood elves already have one are being dis-ingenious, it's like saying Forsaken wouldn't have one because humans do

@EnigmAddict - This. it's what I've been saying. The argument that night elves shouldn't have civilization, or arcane magic because blood elves have that is fake argument. that’s just a fake point, why would it be pointless, they are already different. Is it pointless fo forsaken to have cities because humans do? No, ofc not, you have forsaken having necropolis’ i.e. undead cities instead, just like night elven ones aren’t redundant or crashing in on blood elves because blood elves have that, night elf ones are different cos they’re night cities.

Blizzard from the start gave night elves a priesthood, arcane magic and mastery (showing this is where the high elves come from), it didn’t make night elf magic or civilization irrelevant or un-necssary because blood elves had that – that’s just biased people who don’t want night elves the opposite faction group to have anything amazing that they like – you know like how the jelaous person wants only the stuff he has to be the best..it’s exactly that.. wow players have a habit of things like that, in classic days there was a bunch that only wanted pure dps classes to be the only ones that could dps. Druid, Shaman, Palas had to be healers – it didn’t matter that those classes were designed with specs that were not healers, and that healing was just a part of them, not the whole thing. No, they were warrior and pure dps classes that wanted what they played to be the best and would say anything to make sure other classes had dps specs that couldn’t compete with them.

Creating false arguments and points..the biggest one being, “they’d be no reason to play rogue/hunter/mage/warrior” if the dps of hybrids were competitive – what a load of cack. It had nothing to do with the actual situation, everything to do with they wanted what they played to be the only ting good at it, and the best at it.

Same thing here. Night elves have had arcane magic and civilization a part of their lore from the outset, They just had a more interesting story that saw their introduction at the end of the pure-nature era. People, if they had bothered to read WotA by the time they started playing wow, would realise that the long vigil era, the wc3 tone was not all there was to the night elves, and just like the arcane civilization, was an era that was also in the past.
WoW saw a new era for the night elves begin, post long vigil, post isolation. They are okay with night elves coming out of isolation, but not with night elves using arcane magic that is part of their lore or actually living in their great cities. Despite the first thing you see is night elves built a new city as one of the first things in their new era. 1.1 sees the highborne, 2.0 sees the demon hunters, 4.0 sees the highborne join, 7.0 sees the demon hunter join,

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Well, I don't think I'm trying to make the arcane or highborne the central part of the playable night elves..showing it and they are a core part of the night elves and pointing out where, how and the evidence of this in the lore only shows that this is a relevant part, not the main theme. The night elves have a duality theme, it isn't totally obvious. But if you only base them on what you see and don't factor in the written lore, you won't see it. Yet at BFA, there is enough in game for you to see, and you should know by now, that just because blizzard hasn't updated their focus on any particular group doesn't mean they aren't a core or significant part regardless of their numbers.

• Numbers? Does the size of the group change anything about what I've said or the history of the night elves?
• Does the size of the group somehow remove from night elves their magical capability ?
• Does the number of demon hunters make that aspect any less night elven based, or part of night elf lore?

You can be small and very influential, powerful or loved. It doesn't change or alter your significance or the lore.

• How many Night elves are there now after WoT orf any group?
• Do you know how many Shen'dralar highborne there are?
• Do you know how many former highborne amongst the Darnassians returned to the caste after the ban?
• Do you know how many new novice night elves signed up?

DO you remember how long it took for blizzard to show even night elf hunters and wardens.. it took till Legion and BFA, before you saw some of the Wc3 units. Most of wow was night elves in classic presentation un=updated. It is is significant that the major updates they showed of them when they did update them in 6 year gaps had highborne and the arcane playing as large a role as druids and priests. Check cata, check Legion. And as for night elf units, you see a lot of night elf mages with the alliance and kirin't tor in WoD and Legion as wella s many other types of night elves.


Playable alliance night elf culture as far as I know has been shown to include, preistes, druids, thighborne, ilildari.

Why is that? Playable night elves are preresenting everything the night elves are. What their group focuses on mainly is part of an ongoing story, but that doesn't change the various aspects fo the ngiht elf race.

So players who play playable night elves, and playable highborne, who want a customisation that fits that aspect of the lore, wehther it's currently a small b it or it's a major bit, I think are within their right to desire it.

Whether small or large, it is a sginifciant part of the night elves. Are you sure you're not determining the relevance and necessity of this part based on wahty uo've seen alone. Do you at least see and concede that the arcane, the highborne, arcane wielding night elves, night elf civilization are all significant parts ot he night elves and their story race.

@Tharivor what he said.

[Mace]

I agree on the noble character part, but disagree on everything else. All the pre-sundering stuff is just that- pre-sundering. The Night Elves deliberately chose not to continue those parts of their society and there is no indication they regret that at all. Its wrong in my opinion to fundamentally trash the central theme of a race that they've had since their introduction in the WoW universe- if you want to play a pre-Sundering Highborne why not just play Nightborne and let those who want to play Night Elves as they were introduced in WCIII do that?

It is part of the race. Why did the pre-sundering stuff happen? What does it show? It shows the night elves functioning normally. The long vigils does not, the long vigil period is not life as normal (read the lore), it's a mandate period, like a great commission or task.. It defines the parameters of the night elves creation too. It shows the full breadth of them. During that period they do nature, arcane and Elune fully.. The elves know magic, and are very good at it. They built an amazing society, and the next 10,000 years of the long vigil, is lived in mourning for their great loss.

The long vigil doesn't define the ngiht elves alone. .their whole history does. The parts of the pre-sundering era they hate aren't their beautiful forests or citeis, nor their magical expertise - it was their hubris, arrogance and decadence. If they hated their magic or cities - why build Darnassus after the long vigil ends? Why ally with humans or draenei? Why not join Malygos? Because the night elves are arcane and nature loving elves made from the arcane, with great affinity in both with their philosophy dominated by their celestial goddess. They are not exclusive forest elves who despise magic totally. the developers have shown and said quite extensively what the night elves are. Let's accept their vision of them, and not imagine them to be only a fraction of what they are.

The long vigil shows us the night elves being focused on the taks of the long vigil - they didn't even develop and grow families, it was work, protect, guard, heal. THey couldn't use their arcane magic, so no cities. Look at the evidence, look at what the lore says and what we are shown.

The ruins are just that- ruins. Darnassus is also very obviously a Long-Vigil style city- nearly all the buildings are entirely made out of wood, with Long-Vigil Ashenvale style architecture rather than anything Highborne themed. The Temple of Elune is the only exception to this and even that has plants growing inside. The Night Elves were very clearly and obviously depicted as maintaining their nature-worshipping culture and anything else is just head canon. And this is not called being "stuck"- its called having a racial theme and every race in WoW has one.

The point of that statement is to say the if we are validating the argument that night elves shouldn't have civilization and cities because the horde does, if that was how blizzard thought and did things, then the horde would not have even got blood elves in the first place, and certainly not Nightborne.

I mention Daranssus as an example that night elves do civilization and cities, the highborne show they do arcane magic, the caste is not exclusively made up for Shen'dralar, many more Dranssiasn join, including 10k year highborne who put off the calling to respect the ban, and lots of new novices as cataclycsm shows.

Just because you see ruined cities and ruined forests, doesn't mean that is the forever state, especially when development shows you a move towards a restoration of some of the things that HAD to be laid aside during the long vigil.

Night elves were not eschewing society or civilization.. why mounr something you hate.? They didn't hate it, nor do they hate magic.. that is Maiev up to around Legion as Illian novel the Sundering novel at the end show you quite clearly. How the rest of the night elves feel you can see bsed on how they refer to their golden age. They mourn the loss of what was good. All those people, those cities, temples, they did stuff very well, and good, it wasn't bad. what was bad was the callous hubris that came in, there is no reason night elves would return to that attitude, but to say they won't return to .

Finally, Darnassus is not a full fledged night elf city, but it's the first they've built since before the sundering, not everything is in marble yet, but then arcane magic hasn't returned yet, and they built their cities using a combination of both, still it was an impressive first start without the highborne or the arcane employed. And is evidence night elves certainly do cities.

th of those were very clearly shown as existing as small distrusted minorities in wider traditional Night Elf society. We don't see any Highborne style architecture or culture anywhere from Cata onwards- we see a few mages and demon hunters sure but far far outnumbered by Sentinels, Priestesses, and Druids who still have all the leadership roles.

And? Illidari are playable customisations and they aren't even a part of the Darnassian faction, yet they are playable, and by implication the demon hunter hero fights for his race even though his peple aren't accepted at all.

How much more so the hightborne? who are not a distrusted minority, the night elves have moved on from that and reconciled. There were reasons the highborne were distrusted (Azshara's actions and their role in the wota? Then Darth'remar and the exiles?) - hello, addiction corruption? The Shen'dralar and Darnassian returning highborne are portrayed as group with neither of the hated hallmarks of the past. At first they are distrusted by some, but we find out they have a lot of support in Wolfheart and that most of the distrust is propaganda instigated by Maiev, they are accepted fully in the end.

But that is neither here nor there, if the illidari can be a playable customisation, why not the highborne who are fully part of the Darnassian outfit at this stage? Why shouldn't they have their own customisation? Afterall, that is what this topic isa bout?

Of course the Nightborne storyline is part of Night Elf lore- Tyrande plays a prominent role in it. But it doesn't show the Night Elves wanting to go back to pre-Sundering Highborne society, but actually the opposite- Tyrande deliberately chooses to maintain her values and look down in disdain on Nightborne society. This would be true regardless of what faction they joined- even if they went Alliance they would have to be a separate race apart from the other Night Elves because Tyrande still rejects their society.
The Azuna, Black Rook, and Cathedral of Elune Highborne are all ghosts and ruins. The Wardens are not arcane Highborne magic suers but exactly the opposite- hardcore devotees of traditional Elune-worshipping anti-arcane Night Elf culture.
Valsharah is the only zone that has large numbers of alive modern Night Elves in it and they are just as nature devoted as their Kalimdor brethren.

Yet Wrdens end up working with demon hutners, and the most prejudiced of al lMaiev, whose biased prejudiced allowed AU Gul'dan to re-enter this world and start this whole shitstorm come round.

ANd Tyrande is not shown to reject or accept the Nightborne, nor is she shown to reject the city she actually tries to save or shown to hate civilization, beautiful buildings or arcane magic... she is shown to be pissed off that they are completely and totally addicted, wants the nightwell the source of their appalling state to be destroyed and the demons the evil infesting her city to be expunged.

Tyrande does not go on a rampage insisting all night elves stop using arcane magic now because she hates, or tha thte highborne change their culture and customs, nor is she seen to despise her Goddess' beautiful temples or what the night elves build in anyway. The highborne amongst the Darnassians are uncorrupted and totally free of addiction both those who are originally Shen'dralar and those who are Darnassians returned to the order or brand new trainees.

Showing what Tyrande hates.

Stop using Tyrand'es example as som indication that night elves hate arcane magic, or hate their civilization and hate their cities and therefore don't want that. What they hate is reckless and abusive use. Even the Nightborne admit they went far too far, and their are night elves their trying t help save them.. and then blizzard writes them to join the horde :rolleyes

I don't have a "vision" of the Night Elves- I'm just stating exactly how they've consistently been depicted in game from WCIII onward. You seem to have decided that what has been shown in game is somehow incomplete and want to add elements from Night Elf history that have long since ceased to be living parts of mainstream Night Elf society.

You seem to have missed out all the time and effort shown to depict the highborne, the arcane wielding night elves, the new students, the mages in WoD and BFA, the highborne of Azsuna, the Moonguard, Suramar and the Nightborne, the Demon hunters.. and you seem to keep trying to force that they left civilization and magic behind a long time ago - when they clearly have not. Nor do they hate it.

The lore has shown many aspects of the night elves, and so has the game, and it is very hard to ignore all those other things, whether they are small in number or not. They are significant. Clearly night elf arcane magical ability and aptitude is not a thing of the distant past, and certainly neither is their city building or civilization something that is forever buried never to be a part of them, same with their highborne. All these things have returned in some measure. Small or large.. as the demon hunters show, as the void elves, as the gnomes, , as the blood elves, you don't have to be large in population to be relevant, significant or meaningful.

I agree that Horde/Alliance concerns are not the main issue here. The biggest problem is that adding all this arcane stuff to modern Night Elves would destroy the entirely the modern Night Elf lore and theme and would be wrong just because of the damage it does to Night Elf lore more than anything else.

I think its a problem only to you. Because you seem to be denying it as a part of the night elves because the biggest display of it was in the pre-sundering era. You seem to ignore why arcane magic was banned, and the fact that it has returned. You misconstrue what the night elves hate even when the evidence doesn't add up.

Let the developers show you what the night elf is, don't decide for yourself that you know what the night elves are more than they do. I have seen many a people make that mistake, including a very close friend of mine, who at least had the honesty and balls to U-turn when it was properly pointed out to him.

You are been shown this stuff because it is a part of the night elves, always has, and the developers want it to be there. THe night elf mage is not like the Tauren sunwalker, or orc mage, made an appearance and then barely ever seen since save for the cameo in class halls. THe arcane aspect of the night elves is all over their lore and part of what makes them night elves, gives their skin colour as pourle (not green) their eyes as silver (not green) , and continues to play a part clearly in their current set up, both playable and non-palyable.

I am not imganining playable night elf mages, Shen'dralar highborne, the re-instated Darnassian highborne caste, the constant visible presence of night elf mages, and night elf arcane and magical side shown in legion and BFA. Whether it's by ghosts, remnants, active groups, players or whatever, it is there.

That said now that the Nightborne have been introduced as a playable race, giving their theme to the Night Elves would also damage them as well and would be wrong. This is regardless of which faction they are on- even if they were on the Alliance it would not be fair for Night Elf or Nightborne players to give all the Nightborne themes to the Night Elves and destroy the traditional Night Elf theme in the process.

And there you go missing the point of everything this argument over the last pages is trying to tell you. The Nightborne were not made to the join the horde, they were made as part of the night elf lore story then later given to the horde. The existence of the Nightborne does not invalidate the existence of highborne, nor does the highborne aspect of the night elves being developed damage the Nightborne at all, especially now the groups have gone hteir separate ways.. any more than developing the Tauren would somehow damage the Highmountain or developing the Light part of the draenei or magic-crystal tech would somehow damage the Lightforge.

Because the Nightborne are not their to be the exclusive representation of the arcane side of the Nightborne so that only the horde can have this aspect of them. No, we have beens hown clearly and distinctly that this is part of the night elves first, has always been and still is. In Suramar blizzard aimed to show pristine night elven pre-sundering city, they did tno aim to show and give the horde night elf aspects as if to say only the horde can have these.

So why would you think the highborne would damage the Nightborne when one is night elf the other Nightborne on the other faction, now doing its thing as the new blood elf sidekicks? Why would blizzard halt showing more of Tauren culture because the Highmountain are around or show more of and develop the highborne because they gave the Nightborne to the horde? ANd I can assure you desire and popularity of the highborne is still quite high.

Of all the examples you gave only the Lightforged Draenei make sense, since I agree they are weirdly similar to vanilla Draenei. All the other races were deliberately given twists to differentiate them from their parent races, and Nightborne are no exception.

No mate, they all make sense for the point I am trying to make. Which is blizzard don't make races to be opposites of others. These allied races are there to offer customisation and show a different group with its own unique story. They are not there to make the core race redundant - so the argument I am arguing against is those who are saying that Nightborne have the night elven arcane civilization and the highborne apeprance therefore night elves shouldn't.

Blizzard didn't make Nightborne for the horde. They made Nightborne to tell and show more of the story of the pre-sundering night elves previously only in the novels. It was a good set to show because it hadn't been done before, and they hadn't shown players this part of the night elves even though it's been there. So the fact that later they give the sub-race group of altered night elves to the horde doesn't all of a sudden serve as proof or confirmation that arcane magic wielding, civilization and cities for elves are only for the horde and therefore people who want to play civilization based night elves...the Nightborne are there for you kinda thing.

You are confusing Night Elf history with present day Night Elf society. We never see a single arcane-wielding Highborne accepted in modern Night Elf society until Cataclysm, and even then they remain a small minority. We never see real intact Highborne architecture or culture alive in modern Night Elf civilisation, as shown by the fact that Suramar was so radically different from anything we had seen before.

I am not confusing anything, I am using the history to point out that this is part of the night elves. Just because it was in the pst doesn't mean it isn't relevant or a part of the race and lore. Azshara as a night elf is in the past, but she is still very much part of the race and its lore.

Darnassian kaldorei didn't stop having an aptitude, capability, talent or desire for arcane magicjust because of the l ong vigil. They didn't become less talented or less genetically capable of magic either. Theya re defined by their creation form the well of eternity and defined to have an aracne essence with a very high aptitude ofr magic as well as a very long lifespan, very hight intelligence a great love for nature too. it is part of their racial make up.

You may not be getting the point I am trying to make. the highborne are part of night elves, and the arcane is a core paart of the race. It is fitting that this is represented in the playable race, and it is fitting that the model should have customisation that reflects this section of the night elf race. just like the Illidari have a model cusotmisation that reflects that part of the night elves that does that thing.

You see it doesn't matter whether they are part of the Darnassian alliance society or not.. they didn't even have to be to playable. Having a highborne customisation will represent every arcane wielding night elf, whether highborne or Moonguard or Darnassian.

By the logic you are using here we should add Highborne customisation to the Blood Elves as well (since the Highborne are literally their ancestors), add Light-worshipping paladins to the Forsaken, give prelates of Rezan to the Darkspear, and all sorts of other nonsense. Just because something exists in a race's history does not mean its thematically appropriate to force it on the race in the present- particularly if it doesn't make lore-sense, like for the Night Elves whose leader even as late as Legion still openly disapproves of Highborne society

The blood elves aren't highborne, they are highborne descendants, it would be pointless to add highborne customisation to them because they aren't night elves. Furthermore, the blood elves are their own version of that. What would make sense for the blood elves is to add a ranger/farstrider customisation, similar to what alleria has but red tattoos and more ruddy as reflecting the blood elf instead of the high elf. Why? Because this is a part of the blood elves that the model doesn't really have a proper option for. And it doesn't mean that's all they should get.

This is all well and good, but the Nightborne already exist now as a separate playable race. So clearly Blizzard didn't feel that these aspects of the Night Elf past were part of their present, so they chose to make these themes into a new race. Trying to backtrack and shove those themes into the Night Elves doesn't really work.

YEs, so when they designed the Lightforged Draenei, they clearly didn't feel the aspects they embodied were part of the Draenei's present? or that the Highmountain Tauren or Mag'har orcs were part of the Tauren and orcs present? Or is it that blizzard aren't designing races like the Nightborne and Highmountain to make a statement that this is no longer part of the main race.. mayve they're just telling the story of a different group that has a different appearance and making it playable so you can have that appearance to play and enjoy the story of another group off one of the iconic Warcraft races you play?

Which sounds more likely to you?

I actually don't mind this. As long as there are cultural differences as well, such as these new Highborne only using their magic in moderation and still participating in mainstream nature-worshipping Night Elf society, I can see this working. Tyrande obviously rejected the decadent Highborne culture we see in Suramar but her acceptance of the Shendralar shows she is willing to tolerate them if they know their place and don't become dependant on the arcane.

I appreciate that, but this isn't about regulating the night elves or determining how the palayble group should go forward or the race even. we all have the things and aspects we like about them, and would like to see more of. If we go by what the developers are showing us, they are showing us more of all of the various groups. (more of the highborne, more of the druids, the sentinels, the wardens, the demon hunters etc)

This really is about having the player model reflect something that is already a part of the ngiht elves, it doesn't matter how influential, big or small it is. The illidari are small, yet they have a customisation amongst the night elf model, the highborne, which you play as a night elf mage, should to, particularly because it is a played faction, but also it is a very popular and well known part of the night elf - and the original model which is deisgned to reflect the outdoor humble druid or the tom boy warrior female priest - (and now the fel scarred wielding Illidari) doesn't reflect the highborne yet, and it should.

The fan art are pics we like that we feel capture what we imagine the highborne would look like. Many of us have read night elf lore, we have expectaitions. we followed the whole history, up to the Shen'dralar, their freedom from addiction and corruption, the re-instating of the highborne, the revelation of the Moonguard remnant, the Nightborne etc. we now want the night elves we play to be able to have a model customised to match the fantasy of the highborne we play on our Nelf mages. And so it is quite silly to hear people say if we want that we should play Nightborne.

[FossilFree]

If anything, Night Elves have way more claim to the Highborne theme than Nightborne could ever hope to have. Highborne Shen'dralar have been Alliance allies since Cataclysm. Nightborne are from Legion. Highborne have both the precedent and the seniority in this case, Nightborne are the junior member fresh on the scene.

Not to mention that they aren't even the same thing. Nightborne are arcane mutants created from isolation under the dome for 10k years and the habitual drinking of Arcwine. Highborne are Night Elves than never went down the druid path. Very different origins, appearances, and themes.

It would be like if WC3 Tauren never got added in vanilla WoW and suddenly one day Highmountain Tauren were added out of the blue, and then trying to argue that the inclusion of playable Tauren is now unwarranted because their Cenarius-magic mutated cousins are already a playable option.

[Hellspawn]

Seems like night elfs are getting blond hair... not sure about that oh well...

[ravenmoon]

Seems like night elfs are getting blond hair... not sure about that oh well...

I guess the andy blond hair is the highborne part? But is that all? if that's all it would be again quite disappointing. A fullon highborne cusotimsation would have been awesome as well as extra options for the existing druid and female wariro model we have...things like druid beards for males as an example. But highborne cusotmisation would have been nice

Nice find though. Was this on wowhead?

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If anything, Night Elves have way more claim to the Highborne theme than Nightborne could ever hope to have. Highborne Shen'dralar have been Alliance allies since Cataclysm. Nightborne are from Legion. Highborne have both the precedent and the seniority in this case, Nightborne are the junior member fresh on the scene.

Not to mention that they aren't even the same thing. Nightborne are arcane mutants created from isolation under the dome for 10k years and the habitual drinking of Arcwine. Highborne are Night Elves than never went down the druid path. Very different origins, appearances, and themes.

It would be like if WC3 Tauren never got added in vanilla WoW and suddenly one day Highmountain Tauren were added out of the blue, and then trying to argue that the inclusion of playable Tauren is now unwarranted because their Cenarius-magic mutated cousins are already a playable option.

Correct !! Ofc they do, don't mind some of these people, it's like saying void elves have claim to magical aptitude because they have to be distinctive and blood elves have been shifted to teh light and farstrider presentation.

Thank you FossilFree .. the highborne is the original arcane dark elf maestro premier - the nightborne is an off shoot that has its own side story, but it's presence shouldn't supercede the original ultimate elven arcane master - which is the highborne in lore. And tehse are night elves and now available to be played on the night elves.

The Belf fans suggesting this should consider how it would feel like if blizzard decided that the alliance high elves and void elves only were going to carry on the Thalssian elf legacy, and they would get Silvermoon or a better updated version and all portrayls concerning magic and civlization would be shown through them. This is what they are essentially saying whent hey say "Nightborne are this, therefore highborne don't need to be".

Btw.. if they were to develop tension between the night elves and Nightborne, I could easily see the highborne viewing the Nightborne as sickly aberrations distorted by the arcane and needing generations for the Arcan'dor to fully heal, and looking down on them because of it. I wouldn't personally like that, but it is certainly how it looks if we were going to be nasty about it.

[Tharivor]

Well, I don't think I'm trying to make the arcane or highborne the central part of the playable night elves..showing it and they are a core part of the night elves and pointing out where, how and the evidence of this in the lore only shows that this is a relevant part, not the main theme. The night elves have a duality theme, it isn't totally obvious. But if you only base them on what you see and don't factor in the written lore, you won't see it. Yet at BFA, there is enough in game for you to see, and you should know by now, that just because blizzard hasn't updated their focus on any particular group doesn't mean they aren't a core or significant part regardless of their numbers.

Again it comes down to the past/present distinction. Was arcane magic and highborne culture a central part of the night elf past? Yes, obviously.

Is arcane magic and Highborne culture a central part of the the modern playable night elves present day culture? No, obviously.

That's not to say they aren't present at all, and that's where numbers come in- they help us understand what is a central part of the culture, and what is a minority view. And at the moment in modern Night Elf culture, Highborne and arcane themes are a regulated minority. And Tyrande's attitudes in Legion seem to indicate that this is a deliberate choice.

• Numbers? Does the size of the group change anything about what I've said or the history of the night elves?
• Does the size of the group somehow remove from night elves their magical capability ?
• Does the number of demon hunters make that aspect any less night elven based, or part of night elf lore?

Like I said the size impacts their presence and influence in present day Night Elf culture. It doesn't make sense to introduce sprawling arcane magical cities for the modern Night Elves if there aren't enough arcane practising Night Elves to fill them.

You can be small and very influential, powerful or loved. It doesn't change or alter your significance or the lore.

But they aren't influential, powerful or loved. In fact they are very explicitly not in leadership positions and generally mistrusted. It doesn't change the history, but the history also doesn't change the present.

• How many Night elves are there now after WoT orf any group?
• Do you know how many Shen'dralar highborne there are?
• Do you know how many former highborne amongst the Darnassians returned to the caste after the ban?
• Do you know how many new novice night elves signed up?

We know for an absolute fact that the vast majority of Night Elves continue their traditional ways because the vast majority of Night Elves we see continue their traditional ways. You can't just make up a headcanon and call it reality. Also I would like to see some evidence of any former Highborne "returning to the caste" after the return of the Shendralar. Is that in one of the novels?

DO you remember how long it took for blizzard to show even night elf hunters and wardens.. it took till Legion and BFA, before you saw some of the Wc3 units. Most of wow was night elves in classic presentation un=updated. It is is significant that the major updates they showed of them when they did update them in 6 year gaps had highborne and the arcane playing as large a role as druids and priests. Check cata, check Legion. And as for night elf units, you see a lot of night elf mages with the alliance and kirin't tor in WoD and Legion as wella s many other types of night elves.

At no point in the entire history of WoW do we see "the arcane playing as large a role as druids and priests" in modern Night Elf culture- please cite examples rather than just making outlandish claims. Otherwise this is just headcanon. And there is a difference between not seeing something we know exists in Night Elf society in WCIII, and headcanoning in vast cultural changes without any reference point. Is there anything even outside of the game that even hints at significant numbers of Highborne cultured Night Elf mages making decisions alongside the Priestesses and Druids? No, at best we are shown in Wolfheart that they become an accepted minority. All ruling power remains in the Tyrande, her Sisterhood, and the Sentinels- the same Tyrande who as late as Legion showed no intention of rebuilding a Suramar-style society.

Playable alliance night elf culture as far as I know has been shown to include, preistes, druids, thighborne, ilildari.

Why is that? Playable night elves are preresenting everything the night elves are. What their group focuses on mainly is part of an ongoing story, but that doesn't change the various aspects fo the ngiht elf race.

Playable Night Elves include mages, demon hunters, and death knights. This does not make arcane magic, fel magic, or necromancy anything but minority parts of modern Night Elf culture.

So players who play playable night elves, and playable highborne, who want a customisation that fits that aspect of the lore, wehther it's currently a small b it or it's a major bit, I think are within their right to desire it.

I agree as long as its proportionate with the lore.

[Pheraz]

Not only blonde hair
But also...
https://twitter.com/keyboardturn/sta...57524273926144
Blue, bright blue, golden and green eyes <3
Who the hell needs high elves. We have highborne now <3

[Tharivor]

It is part of the race. Why did the pre-sundering stuff happen? What does it show? It shows the night elves functioning normally. The long vigils does not, the long vigil period is not life as normal (read the lore), it's a mandate period, like a great commission or task.. It defines the parameters of the night elves creation too. It shows the full breadth of them. During that period they do nature, arcane and Elune fully.. The elves know magic, and are very good at it. They built an amazing society, and the next 10,000 years of the long vigil, is lived in mourning for their great loss.

The long vigil doesn't define the ngiht elves alone. .their whole history does. The parts of the pre-sundering era they hate aren't their beautiful forests or citeis, nor their magical expertise - it was their hubris, arrogance and decadence. If they hated their magic or cities - why build Darnassus after the long vigil ends? Why ally with humans or draenei? Why not join Malygos? Because the night elves are arcane and nature loving elves made from the arcane, with great affinity in both with their philosophy dominated by their celestial goddess. They are not exclusive forest elves who despise magic totally. the developers have shown and said quite extensively what the night elves are. Let's accept their vision of them, and not imagine them to be only a fraction of what they are.

The long vigil shows us the night elves being focused on the taks of the long vigil - they didn't even develop and grow families, it was work, protect, guard, heal. THey couldn't use their arcane magic, so no cities. Look at the evidence, look at what the lore says and what we are shown.

The present day Night Elves are defined by how the present day Night Elves choose to define them selves. And they have chosen to remain worshipping nature and Elune, and to refuse to go back to the old Highborne culture. This is why the vast majority of Night Elves in game from Vanilla to BfA worship nature and Elune, do not practice the arcane, and do not exhibit any signs of the old Highborne culture. This is also why the Shendralar were initially so mistrusted, because they were still very different from the rest of Night Elf society. This is also why when she met the Nightborne, Tyrande reacted with suspicion and mistrust. This is what we are shown in game and in all the novels as well.

The point of that statement is to say the if we are validating the argument that night elves shouldn't have civilization and cities because the horde does, if that was how blizzard thought and did things, then the horde would not have even got blood elves in the first place, and certainly not Nightborne.

I mention Daranssus as an example that night elves do civilization and cities, the highborne show they do arcane magic, the caste is not exclusively made up for Shen'dralar, many more Dranssiasn join, including 10k year highborne who put off the calling to respect the ban, and lots of new novices as cataclycsm shows.

Just because you see ruined cities and ruined forests, doesn't mean that is the forever state, especially when development shows you a move towards a restoration of some of the things that HAD to be laid aside during the long vigil.

Darnassus is indeed a city but its a modern nature and Elune worshipping non-arcane city. Apart from the Temple of Elune everything is made of wood and there is nothing arcane about it. So yes, the Night Elves are developing a more urban civilisation but this is not a Highborne arcane-based civilisation. This can be clearly seen in game.

Night elves were not eschewing society or civilization.. why mounr something you hate.? They didn't hate it, nor do they hate magic.. that is Maiev up to around Legion as Illian novel the Sundering novel at the end show you quite clearly. How the rest of the night elves feel you can see bsed on how they refer to their golden age. They mourn the loss of what was good. All those people, those cities, temples, they did stuff very well, and good, it wasn't bad. what was bad was the callous hubris that came in, there is no reason night elves would return to that attitude, but to say they won't return to .

They did hate arcane magic, and they are still suspicious of it now- hence why Tyrande acted the way she did when she encountered the Nightborne.

Finally, Darnassus is not a full fledged night elf city, but it's the first they've built since before the sundering, not everything is in marble yet, but then arcane magic hasn't returned yet, and they built their cities using a combination of both, still it was an impressive first start without the highborne or the arcane employed. And is evidence night elves certainly do cities.

This is just headcanon. If the Night Elves want to add arcane stuff to their cities they can. But they haven't. Just because you don't like that they haven't doesn't mean you can headcanon that they have.

And? Illidari are playable customisations and they aren't even a part of the Darnassian faction, yet they are playable, and by implication the demon hunter hero fights for his race even though his peple aren't accepted at all.

How much more so the hightborne? who are not a distrusted minority, the night elves have moved on from that and reconciled. There were reasons the highborne were distrusted (Azshara's actions and their role in the wota? Then Darth'remar and the exiles?) - hello, addiction corruption? The Shen'dralar and Darnassian returning highborne are portrayed as group with neither of the hated hallmarks of the past. At first they are distrusted by some, but we find out they have a lot of support in Wolfheart and that most of the distrust is propaganda instigated by Maiev, they are accepted fully in the end.

But that is neither here nor there, if the illidari can be a playable customisation, why not the highborne who are fully part of the Darnassian outfit at this stage? Why shouldn't they have their own customisation? Afterall, that is what this topic isa bout?

Again, I'm not against customisation- just as long as its in keeping with the lore. Maybe I've misinterpreted you, but there's a lot of talk of reconstructing huge arcane cities and cultures like in Suramar, which would be silly. But a Highborne flavor to modern Night Elf mage appearance- yeah sure I can see that.

ANd Tyrande is not shown to reject or accept the Nightborne, nor is she shown to reject the city she actually tries to save or shown to hate civilization, beautiful buildings or arcane magic... she is shown to be pissed off that they are completely and totally addicted, wants the nightwell the source of their appalling state to be destroyed and the demons the evil infesting her city to be expunged.

Tyrande does not go on a rampage insisting all night elves stop using arcane magic now because she hates, or tha thte highborne change their culture and customs, nor is she seen to despise her Goddess' beautiful temples or what the night elves build in anyway. The highborne amongst the Darnassians are uncorrupted and totally free of addiction both those who are originally Shen'dralar and those who are Darnassians returned to the order or brand new trainees.

Showing what Tyrande hates.

Stop using Tyrand'es example as som indication that night elves hate arcane magic, or hate their civilization and hate their cities and therefore don't want that. What they hate is reckless and abusive use. Even the Nightborne admit they went far too far, and their are night elves their trying t help save them.. and then blizzard writes them to join the horde :rolleyes

I never said anything about Tyrande hating temples or stone buildings or whatever. I said she distrusted the arcane-centric culture she saw in Suramar and thats exactly what the game shows. That's the whole point- she accepted the Shendralar because they are moderate, she rejected the Nightborne because she sees them, even the noble ones like Thalysra, as extreme. So Highborne features in modern night elf culture should be more like the Shendralar (minority status using their magic in moderation and working within present day Night Elf cities like Darnassus) and not like the Nightborne (big pre-Sundering style arcane cities where everyone uses arcane magic casually).

You seem to have missed out all the time and effort shown to depict the highborne, the arcane wielding night elves, the new students, the mages in WoD and BFA, the highborne of Azsuna, the Moonguard, Suramar and the Nightborne, the Demon hunters.. and you seem to keep trying to force that they left civilization and magic behind a long time ago - when they clearly have not. Nor do they hate it.

The lore has shown many aspects of the night elves, and so has the game, and it is very hard to ignore all those other things, whether they are small in number or not. They are significant. Clearly night elf arcane magical ability and aptitude is not a thing of the distant past, and certainly neither is their city building or civilization something that is forever buried never to be a part of them, same with their highborne. All these things have returned in some measure. Small or large.. as the demon hunters show, as the void elves, as the gnomes, , as the blood elves, you don't have to be large in population to be relevant, significant or meaningful.

Dead Night Elves are dead, and the Nightborne have their own culture that even Tyrande disapproves of. The sole example of present day arcane Night Elves are the Shenralar who have integrated into mainstream Night Elf society, and I have no problem with them or with us seeing them more frequently.

I think its a problem only to you. Because you seem to be denying it as a part of the night elves because the biggest display of it was in the pre-sundering era. You seem to ignore why arcane magic was banned, and the fact that it has returned. You misconstrue what the night elves hate even when the evidence doesn't add up.

Let the developers show you what the night elf is, don't decide for yourself that you know what the night elves are more than they do. I have seen many a people make that mistake, including a very close friend of mine, who at least had the honesty and balls to U-turn when it was properly pointed out to him.

I just state what I see in game, I assume thats what the developers want me to see.

You are been shown this stuff because it is a part of the night elves, always has, and the developers want it to be there. THe night elf mage is not like the Tauren sunwalker, or orc mage, made an appearance and then barely ever seen since save for the cameo in class halls.

THe arcane aspect of the night elves is all over their lore and part of what makes them night elves, gives their skin colour as pourle (not green) their eyes as silver (not green) , and continues to play a part clearly in their current set up, both playable and non-palyable.

I am not imganining playable night elf mages, Shen'dralar highborne, the re-instated Darnassian highborne caste, the constant visible presence of night elf mages, and night elf arcane and magical side shown in legion and BFA. Whether it's by ghosts, remnants, active groups, players or whatever, it is there.

Erm... isn't that exactly what night elf mages are like? Can you show me where we've seen preset day Night Elf mages more commonly than Tauren sunwalkers? The only ones I can remember are the novices killed by the Horde in Azshara and the Tower in Feralas where there is a whole thing from an ex-priestess about how the arcane should be practised in moderation and how shes faced rejection by her fellow priestesses for her choice to become a mage. In Legion we got the Archmage with a cameo in the class hall, and the siblings who give the quest to find the ghost of their parents in Azsuna. Am I missing something? Also again dead night elves are dead, its the living ones that define the present day culture.

And there you go missing the point of everything this argument over the last pages is trying to tell you. The Nightborne were not made to the join the horde, they were made as part of the night elf lore story then later given to the horde. The existence of the Nightborne does not invalidate the existence of highborne, nor does the highborne aspect of the night elves being developed damage the Nightborne at all, especially now the groups have gone hteir separate ways.. any more than developing the Tauren would somehow damage the Highmountain or developing the Light part of the draenei or magic-crystal tech would somehow damage the Lightforge.

Because the Nightborne are not their to be the exclusive representation of the arcane side of the Nightborne so that only the horde can have this aspect of them. No, we have beens hown clearly and distinctly that this is part of the night elves first, has always been and still is. In Suramar blizzard aimed to show pristine night elven pre-sundering city, they did tno aim to show and give the horde night elf aspects as if to say only the horde can have these.

The Nightborne were made to be Nightborne, and Suramar was made for the Nightborne. They depict something similar to what was once in the Night Elf past, yes but thats it. And they weren't given to the Horde- they joined the Horde largely because Tyrande, the Night Elf leader, didn't approve of them. This is all in game.

So why would you think the highborne would damage the Nightborne when one is night elf the other Nightborne on the other faction, now doing its thing as the new blood elf sidekicks? Why would blizzard halt showing more of Tauren culture because the Highmountain are around or show more of and develop the highborne because they gave the Nightborne to the horde? ANd I can assure you desire and popularity of the highborne is still quite high.

They will only damage Nightborne if they are made into copies of them. Modern Shendralar style Highborne integrated into modern nature-focused Night Elf society makes sense and doesn't step on anyone toes. Building Suramar 2.0 both steps on the theme of an existing race and, more importantly, makes no sense since Tyrande didn't like what she saw in Suramar.

No mate, they all make sense for the point I am trying to make. Which is blizzard don't make races to be opposites of others. These allied races are there to offer customisation and show a different group with its own unique story. They are not there to make the core race redundant - so the argument I am arguing against is those who are saying that Nightborne have the night elven arcane civilization and the highborne apeprance therefore night elves shouldn't.

Blizzard didn't make Nightborne for the horde. They made Nightborne to tell and show more of the story of the pre-sundering night elves previously only in the novels. It was a good set to show because it hadn't been done before, and they hadn't shown players this part of the night elves even though it's been there. So the fact that later they give the sub-race group of altered night elves to the horde doesn't all of a sudden serve as proof or confirmation that arcane magic wielding, civilization and cities for elves are only for the horde and therefore people who want to play civilization based night elves...the Nightborne are there for you kinda thing.

They make each race to be distinct, not for a certain faction- especially the allied races who are often deliberately out of step with the dominant faction themes. The Nightborne were not made for the Horde- they were made for people who like the Nightborne. If you liked everything you saw in Suramar you should just play a Nightborne.

I am not confusing anything, I am using the history to point out that this is part of the night elves. Just because it was in the pst doesn't mean it isn't relevant or a part of the race and lore. Azshara as a night elf is in the past, but she is still very much part of the race and its lore.

Darnassian kaldorei didn't stop having an aptitude, capability, talent or desire for arcane magicjust because of the l ong vigil. They didn't become less talented or less genetically capable of magic either. Theya re defined by their creation form the well of eternity and defined to have an aracne essence with a very high aptitude ofr magic as well as a very long lifespan, very hight intelligence a great love for nature too. it is part of their racial make up.

You may not be getting the point I am trying to make. the highborne are part of night elves, and the arcane is a core paart of the race. It is fitting that this is represented in the playable race, and it is fitting that the model should have customisation that reflects this section of the night elf race. just like the Illidari have a model cusotmisation that reflects that part of the night elves that does that thing.

You see it doesn't matter whether they are part of the Darnassian alliance society or not.. they didn't even have to be to playable. Having a highborne customisation will represent every arcane wielding night elf, whether highborne or Moonguard or Darnassian.

The blood elves aren't highborne, they are highborne descendants, it would be pointless to add highborne customisation to them because they aren't night elves. Furthermore, the blood elves are their own version of that. What would make sense for the blood elves is to add a ranger/farstrider customisation, similar to what alleria has but red tattoos and more ruddy as reflecting the blood elf instead of the high elf. Why? Because this is a part of the blood elves that the model doesn't really have a proper option for. And it doesn't mean that's all they should get.

My point is that history doesn't define the present, it just informs it. Just because Highborne culture used to be central to the Night Elves, doesn't make modern Darnassian Night Elves "incomplete" because they don't practice it. It doesn't "need" representation- there are already Night Elves mages that show the re-introduced education of the Shenralar while still staying true to the core theme. Could they have more customisation? Yeah sure, as long as it doesn't take away from the overall theme

YEs, so when they designed the Lightforged Draenei, they clearly didn't feel the aspects they embodied were part of the Draenei's present? or that the Highmountain Tauren or Mag'har orcs were part of the Tauren and orcs present? Or is it that blizzard aren't designing races like the Nightborne and Highmountain to make a statement that this is no longer part of the main race.. mayve they're just telling the story of a different group that has a different appearance and making it playable so you can have that appearance to play and enjoy the story of another group off one of the iconic Warcraft races you play?

Again apart from Lightforged, all the others are "twists" on the origional races. Otherwise they would just ahve been a cosmetic option like we're getting in Shadowlands.

I appreciate that, but this isn't about regulating the night elves or determining how the palayble group should go forward or the race even. we all have the things and aspects we like about them, and would like to see more of. If we go by what the developers are showing us, they are showing us more of all of the various groups. (more of the highborne, more of the druids, the sentinels, the wardens, the demon hunters etc)

This really is about having the player model reflect something that is already a part of the ngiht elves, it doesn't matter how influential, big or small it is. The illidari are small, yet they have a customisation amongst the night elf model, the highborne, which you play as a night elf mage, should to, particularly because it is a played faction, but also it is a very popular and well known part of the night elf - and the original model which is deisgned to reflect the outdoor humble druid or the tom boy warrior female priest - (and now the fel scarred wielding Illidari) doesn't reflect the highborne yet, and it should.

The fan art are pics we like that we feel capture what we imagine the highborne would look like. Many of us have read night elf lore, we have expectaitions. we followed the whole history, up to the Shen'dralar, their freedom from addiction and corruption, the re-instating of the highborne, the revelation of the Moonguard remnant, the Nightborne etc. we now want the night elves we play to be able to have a model customised to match the fantasy of the highborne we play on our Nelf mages. And so it is quite silly to hear people say if we want that we should play Nightborne.

The game should reflect Darnassian Night Elves as they exist in game. Yes, including minorities, but as just that- minorities; like how Demon Hunters are depicted. I don't think its the right thing to make every race in game a repository of characters from every part of their history- it makes it unrealistic because you'll end up with characters who have no connection with the present day culture of the race like they've just stepped out of a time machine.

[Hellspawn]

Three new night elf skin colors:


I guess the blue/dark one could fit the bill to have a Azshara like skin.

[Yarathir]

I guess men are in on the markings party.

I still want jewellery. I am willing to wait to see it, but it has to make it in at some point. It's practically essential.

[Alanar]

Again it comes down to the past/present distinction. Was arcane magic and highborne culture a central part of the night elf past? Yes, obviously.

Is arcane magic and Highborne culture a central part of the the modern playable night elves present day culture? No, obviously.

That's not to say they aren't present at all, and that's where numbers come in- they help us understand what is a central part of the culture, and what is a minority view. And at the moment in modern Night Elf culture, Highborne and arcane themes are a regulated minority. And Tyrande's attitudes in Legion seem to indicate that this is a deliberate choice.
Like I said the size impacts their presence and influence in present day Night Elf culture. It doesn't make sense to introduce sprawling arcane magical cities for the modern Night Elves if there aren't enough arcane practising Night Elves to fill them.

This kinda summs up what I was trying say to mace, my eyes rolled back when I got quoted with a essay of headcanon where my head started to hurt.

The point is.. with the Nightborne included is that the Arcane culture is not something that is with the current night elves of any priority, we already have the blood elves and now Nightborne who continue on that path. The nightborne made highborne absolute for that matter. I don't see any room for more of the same with Night elf mages taking over?what would be the point?
The Night elves lost most of their folks in the damn tree, last thing you should care about it the guy waiting for hes audience who happens to be one of the 3 night elf mages there. It's a class for night elves now, not a lifestyle like it used to be.

[Beloren]

The game should reflect Darnassian Night Elves as they exist in game. Yes, including minorities, but as just that- minorities; like how Demon Hunters are depicted. I don't think its the right thing to make every race in game a repository of characters from every part of their history- it makes it unrealistic because you'll end up with characters who have no connection with the present day culture of the race like they've just stepped out of a time machine.

Erm, the game should reflect the races as they are intended to be. it's not one thing for the lore and another thing for the game. If it's in the lore it will be in the game even if you don't see it yet, - remember how long it took for us to have BElves properly? At first we were rarely seen night elf clones. But we came. If it's in the game its in the lore.

Darnassian night elves - aren't they the core night elf group? Wait I'm not even sure what point you guys are making ?


If you ask me the blood elves should be the main race all the aspects of the Thalassian elves are shown.. i don't mind if high elves show some of these or void elves some also, but if ti's Thalassian territory, it should be represented in the blood elves. I am thinking the same should be for the night elves and every core race.. especially if you're the main group.

But i'm not sure what the problem is, the Darnassians have all the night elf bits in their group, they have the druid, the priestess of elune, the Highborne, and the night elf demon hunter leader is with them, just like the blood elf demon hunter leader is with the blood elves.

[Mace]

The game should reflect Darnassian Night Elves as they exist in game. Yes, including minorities, but as just that- minorities; like how Demon Hunters are depicted. I don't think its the right thing to make every race in game a repository of characters from every part of their history- it makes it unrealistic because you'll end up with characters who have no connection with the present day culture of the race like they've just stepped out of a time machine.

I don't think you are accepting that the highborne are part of the present day Darnassian set up. Even though that is what the game shows and the lore shows.

I thought perhaps I would try to explain it, and even others too have, but when you make statements like that, it just seems you're refusing to accept. You think night elves have no part in the arcane side of their race own race and feel that because it was huge in the past it's not a part of them any longer despite seeing both. Yet you're wrong on both parts, highborne, and arcane night elf wielders are in the present, and their past achievements and their origin are all a part of them.

- - - Updated - - -

This kinda summs up what I was trying say to mace, my eyes rolled back when I got quoted with a essay of headcanon where my head started to hurt.

The point is.. with the Nightborne included is that the Arcane culture is not something that is with the current night elves of any priority, we already have the blood elves and now Nightborne who continue on that path. The nightborne made highborne absolute for that matter. I don't see any room for more of the same with Night elf mages taking over?what would be the point?
The Night elves lost most of their folks in the damn tree, last thing you should care about it the guy waiting for hes audience who happens to be one of the 3 night elf mages there. It's a class for night elves now, not a lifestyle like it used to be.

Of any priority? because of Nightborne? Is like saying because of Highmountain, shamanism and druidsm is not of any priority with the Tauren, despite both been shown first in the Tauren and both having a role int eh current.

You just don't want night elves having high class magic wielding highborne made more apparent. What do you care? You play horde and like that faction.


Let's hear what you are really saying.

The Highmountain made Tauren obsolete for that matter. I don't see any room for more of the same with Tauren shaman and druids taking over?what would be the point?

Don't see it yet: how about

The Lightforged made Daraenei obsolete for that matter. I don't see any room for more of the same with Draenei Light Priests or space tech masters taking over?what would be the point?

You know why? I'll say it again, the point of the Nightborne, like every other sub-race was never to make obsolete any core race, or take over their role.
the point of the Nightborne, like every other sub-race was never to make obsolete any core race, or take over their role.
the point of the Nightborne, like every other sub-race was never to make obsolete any core race, or take over their role.
the point of the Nightborne, like every other sub-race was never to make obsolete any core race, or take over their role.
the point of the Nightborne, like every other sub-race was never to make obsolete any core race, or take over their role.
the point of the Nightborne, like every other sub-race was never to make obsolete any core race, or take over their role.
the point of the Nightborne, like every other sub-race was never to make obsolete any core race, or take over their role.


That's not the purpose they serve or are created for. In fact they all share things from their core races, they are mainly different off shoots of the core races with different stories so you can have a different version model of the core race to play.

They do not remove the need for customisations on the core race, or make any part of the core race no longer important or relevant.

Like has been said before. Blizzard aren't going to delete Night elf mages or the Highborne. Notice how the highborne caste were the least affected by the War of thorns, there are probably more of them now than any other night elf group.
Funny enough this thing predominatnly comes from horde fans over elves.. if you felt that way, go tell blizzard that to delete the Loa focus on in Darkspears because the Zandalari make them pointless and redundant.

The Night elves lost most of their folks in the damn tree, last thing you should care about it the guy waiting for hes audience who happens to be one of the 3 night elf mages there. It's a class for night elves now, not a lifestyle like it used to be.

I thought we were talking about customisation here, I know I was defending the right and necessity for night elves to have said customisations, available. If your argument held even a shred of water, night elves would not be Demon hunters at all, because hey, they're are such a minority and are not even part of the Darnassian playable faction, yet somehow Highobrne who are, and blizzard has shown it.

[ravenmoon]

@Tharivor and @Alanar I love night elf lore, this includes both the arcane civilziation and the long vigil era stuff. Just love it the whole night angle, moon and stars, arcane and nature magic, silver and purple, civilised and wild.

I want to play in Zin'Azashri or Suramar as a night elf highborne or Moonguard, as well as play in Val'sahrah or Ashenvale as a druid or sentinel hunter. Whether Eldre'thalas, Dranssus, Suramar or Zin'Azshari.. Ashhenvale, val'sharah, Teldrassil or Feralas - they are both aspects of the night elves and i love them.

I wouldn't be requesting that blood elves only get to enjoy Silvermoon because high elves or void elves have to be the farstrider ranger types, when both are part of blood elf lore. Nor would I be requesting humans to not have boats and a navy because Kul'tirans have that instead. Seeing that its' part of the stormwind human package.

You may not like it, I do, and evidently many who play night elves love that stuff. And if they like demon hunter night elves, or highborne night elves or druid night elves or moon priestess night elves - well that's part of their race package.

Why are we arguing over things night elves already have? It's a bit silly.. they have highborne, they have the arcane, they have their civilization lore and parts, this is not a debatable "what if" thing, it's there. If a hore player wants them to have more forest, wild bits, but an alliance player wants to have more city bits - cool story bro, I'm sure blizzard doesn't want night elves to stay stagnant or only half of what they meant them to be. They'll keep adding more stuff. And from what I've noticed in WoD, Legion and BFA - every aspect of the night elves - from arcane, and civilization, to druid and forest, sentinel , priestess and temple, Demon hunters and Wardens have all seen action, updates, inclusion, and more of each. So eveyrone should be happy about that.

If a player wants more of one thing, it's their right to desire it, who are any of you to say they shouldn't get it because... you feel it steps on your faction elves' toes.. I mean seriously. they are elves, they have many things in common, we're not cutting of the arcane and rangers from blood elves because it exists in the void elves and high elves now are we.

In the same way we are not cutting off the arcane and kaldorei civilization in the night elves because it exists in the Nightborne.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Three new night elf skin colors:


I guess the blue/dark one could fit the bill to have a Azshara like skin.

Really like the darkest new skin tone, reminds me of one of the nightborne NPC skin colors. Wish there was another as dark, but richer -I like the new three skin tones, but they seem a bit dull and I was hoping for a dark, but rich one- nonetheless, I already know what character will use that darker skin tone

[Beloren]

This kinda summs up what I was trying say to mace, my eyes rolled back when I got quoted with a essay of headcanon where my head started to hurt.

The point is.. with the Nightborne included is that the Arcane culture is not something that is with the current night elves of any priority, we already have the blood elves and now Nightborne who continue on that path. The nightborne made highborne absolute for that matter. I don't see any room for more of the same with Night elf mages taking over?what would be the point?
The Night elves lost most of their folks in the damn tree, last thing you should care about it the guy waiting for hes audience who happens to be one of the 3 night elf mages there. It's a class for night elves now, not a lifestyle like it used to be.

I think I get where is coming from, I also would hate it if on creating void elves, and been put on the other aspects, some of my favourite aspects about Thalassian elves were now only available to the void elves, my kin but on the opposite faction, and I never get to experience that.

i would hate it if the high elves or void elves either got all the magic stuff or the farstrider ragner stuff... and blizzard decided that blood elves would be the Light only Thalassians, High elves the Farstriders, and Void elves the magic wielders.. I would hate that, becuase I happen to like the magic, the rangers and the light aspect. And the blood elf is the core race - i'm fine with void elves being magic experts too, but not with them replacing me. If they were to go by what you say, that is exactly how these guys would feel. They would not like it, even if it feels right to you and satisfies you. I notice that issue doesn't come up or exist with trolls either.
@Mace - the good news for you is that blizzard haven't deleted the highborne or stopped night elf mages no matter what others want. Things are as you say now. In fact I keep seeing night elf mages show up and kaldorei civilization ancient and present being visited in game. So obviously they're not done with it.

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Why are we arguing over things night elves already have? it's a bit silly.. they have highborne, they have the arcane, they have their civilziation lore and parts, this is not a debatable what if thing, it's there. If a hore player wnats the m to have more forest bits, but an alliance player wants to have more city bits - cool story bro, I'm sure blizzard doesn't want night elves to stay sstagnant. They'll keep adding more stuff. And from what I've noticed in WoD, Legion and BFA - every aspect of the night elves - from arcane, and civilziation, to druid and forest, sentinel , priestess and temple, Demon hutners and Wardens have all seen action, updates, inclusion, and more of each. So eveyrone should be happy about that.

If a player wants more of one thing, it's their right to desire it, who are any of you to say they shouldn't get it because... you feel it steps on your faction elves' toes.. I mean seriously. they are elves, they have many things in common, we're not cutting of the arcane and rangers from blood elves because it exists in the void elves and high elves now are we.

In the same way we are not cutting off the arcane and kaldorei civilization in the night elves because it exists in the Nightborne.

Wow, I never thought I'd be agreeing with you, but it does seem you guys have gone off tangent, I mean highborne are in the game, and night elves can be them, they even have an entire section of that - it's not that developed yet, but the way they presented it, it seemed popular and controversial amongst the night elves - which is what you would expect. They also keep showing it, so I'm not sure why you guys are arguing.

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Really like the darkest new skin tone, reminds me of one of the nightborne NPC skin colors. Wish there was another as dark, but richer -I like the new three skin tones, but they seem a bit dull and I was hoping for a dark, but rich one- nonetheless, I already know what character will use that darker skin tone

Tbh..that is what night elves should be, I don't mind there been a moon white skin tone, cos it fits the night theme, but they should have really dark skin tone options. I think this is a good move from blizzard anyway. Is that a slightly green option above? What's with that?

[Alanar]

Of any priority? because of Nightborne? Is like saying because of Highmountain, shamanism and druidsm is not of any priority with the Tauren, despite both been shown first in the Tauren and both having a role int eh current.

You just don't want night elves having high class magic wielding highborne made more apparent. What do you care? You play horde and like that faction.

Realy? you compare all of that to the 2 ruling forces with tauren there? Where the arcane is such a small fraction of the night elves it's not ev... m8 you are overreacting.

I don't think what you are looking for is in the night elves anymore.. atleast not that prominent. You can't deny the whole Suramar campaign and it's closure to the Night elves, why would they care now? I am sorry, but you are repeating and spamming at the same time and it'not helping you here.

I see you Like night elves, but you are realy pushing it here man.. That long vigil era is long over and the only spark thaat could light up their lazy asses was Suramar. They blew it and I don't see it return any time soon.

Now stop quoting me with the same thing over and over again, you don't need to convince me or anything.

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I think I get where is coming from, I also would hate it if on creating void elves, and been put on the other aspects, some of my favourite aspects about Thalassian elves were now only available to the void elves, my kin but on the opposite faction, and I never get to experience that.

What?..
Void elves I didn't mention, because they are IN the allaince and are a magic based elf as well.. if that helps?

I guess it's the continues moaning about the same things.. they moved the story forward and that didn't include high elves in bc and highborne in legion.. I guess it's a bitter pill, but it has to be swallowed.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Tbh..that is what night elves should be, I don't mind there been a moon white skin tone, cos it fits the night theme, but they should have really dark skin tone options. I think this is a good move from blizzard anyway. Is that a slightly green option above? What's with that?

That's one of the DK skin tones. There are 9 base skin tones, 3 DK ones, 5 DH ones and the lone one is the Night Warrior one. And now 3 more base ones. Wonder if the NW skin tone will remain locked to the eyes or not tho.

[ravenmoon]

I think I get where is coming from, I also would hate it if on creating void elves, and been put on the other aspects, some of my favourite aspects about Thalassian elves were now only available to the void elves, my kin but on the opposite faction, and I never get to experience that.

i would hate it if the high elves or void elves either got all the magic stuff or the farstrider ragner stuff... and blizzard decided that blood elves would be the Light only Thalassians, High elves the Farstriders, and Void elves the magic wielders.. I would hate that, becuase I happen to like the magic, the rangers and the light aspect. And the blood elf is the core race - i'm fine with void elves being magic experts too, but not with them replacing me. If they were to go by what you say, that is exactly how these guys would feel. They would not like it, even if it feels right to you and satisfies you. I notice that issue doesn't come up or exist with trolls either.
@Mace - the good news for you is that blizzard haven't deleted the highborne or stopped night elf mages no matter what others want. Things are as you say now. In fact I keep seeing night elf mages show up and kaldorei civilization ancient and present being visited in game. So obviously they're not done with it.

Exactly, as if anyone is going to look at this:





and this:





Knowing full well it's your fave' races stuff, and be happy with it only being part of the off shoot race stuck on the enemy faction, and being told that this racial stuff is not yours any longer, it belongs exclusively to your enemy faction and you have to switch sides to be a part of that aspect of your race - and expect me to like it or agree. I think some people here are in denial that the above is Kaldorei stuff. They actually view the highborne as a horde group and the arcane aspect of the night elves as not really night elven. For real !
I want both my forests and my cities. I did like night elves only for the forest parts, I liked them for these other bits too. I am fine with Nightborne being around too, but to think that oh blizzard should give all the rcail magical and civilization stuff to the sub race, and have the main race relgated to forest and ruins eternally pwah.

I'll take my forests and my citeies and my culture and racial attributes thank you. Arcane, nature, Moon priestess and demon hunter alike.

Realy? you compare all of that to the 2 ruling forces with tauren there? Where the arcane is such a small fraction of the night elves it's not ev... m8 you are overreacting.

I don't think what you are looking for is in the night elves anymore.. atleast not that prominent. You can't deny the whole Suramar campaign and it's closure to the Night elves, why would they care now? I am sorry, but you are repeating and spamming at the same time and it'not helping you here.

I see you Like night elves, but you are realy pushing it here man.. That long vigil era is long over and the only spark thaat could light up their lazy asses was Suramar. They blew it and I don't see it return any time soon.

Now stop quoting me with the same thing over and over again, you don't need to convince me or anything.

nothing is being pushed here, you seem to be in denial that any of this is part of the night elves and feel that this aspect is developed exclusively for the horde and should remain on the horde, because night elves having it would make them clash with the horde.

It's totally ridiculous man. If blizzard didn't want the night elves to have any of that stuff, they wouldn't have given it to them in the first place. And if it was forever to be only a thing of the past, they would still have them living in forests, and exclusively druids and sentinels. But they didn't.

But then, we are letting ourselves get trolled, by a troll fan.