Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (NOT High Elves)

[Mace]

Exactly, as if anyone is going to look at this:





and this:





Knowing full well it's your fave' races stuff, and be happy with it only being part of the off shoot race stuck on the enemy faction, and being told that this racial stuff is not yours any longer, it belongs exclusively to your enemy faction and you have to switch sides to be a part of that aspect of your race - and expect me to like it or agree. I think some people here are in denial that the above is Kaldorei stuff. They actually view the highborne as a horde group and the arcane aspect of the night elves as not really night elven. For real !
I want both my forests and my cities. I did like night elves only for the forest parts, I liked them for these other bits too. I am fine with Nightborne being around too, but to think that oh blizzard should give all the rcail magical and civilization stuff to the sub race, and have the main race relgated to forest and ruins eternally pwah.

I'll take my forests and my citeies and my culture and racial attributes thank you. Arcane, nature, Moon priestess and demon hunter alike.





nothing is being pushed here, you seem to be in denial that any of this is part of the night elves and feel that this aspect is developed exclusively for the horde and should remain on the horde, because night elves having it would make them clash with the horde.

It's totally ridiculous man. If blizzard didn't want the night elves to have any of that stuff, they wouldn't have given it to them in the first place. And if it was forever to be only a thing of the past, they would still have them living in forests, and exclusively druids and sentinels. But they didn't.

But then, we are letting ourselves get trolled, by a troll fan.

I read the lore books, waited to see this stuff of the night elves, when it finally came it was nice. I certainly won't be okay about blizzard going down the line saying oh, this is now exclusively Nightborne territory, Kaldorei have no part of this. I'd be like wtf.

But ofc, it's not blizzard that's saying this, it's Alanar and Tharivor who can't handle this stuff being part of the night elves, because they're use to seeing night elves in places like this




and




And are quite happy for that to be the end of that, this is where night elves belong they seem to be saying, meanwhile blood elves in pristine cities, and somehow think in their heads this must mean that civilization, and pristine cities and forest are for horde elves, because look, they gave a night elf city, but the night elf race in it was put in the horde, -- therefore it's clear blizzard want this to be a horde only thing ---- and i'm like how do you reach such a silly conclusion. Try to point out analogies with other allied/sub-races , do you think their existence somehow negates .

So it turns out that if anyone desires night elves to reconnect and advance this aspect of them, it is crossing into some mysterious taboo Nightborne/blood elf zone that is somehow not night elven at all any longer and exclusively the right and domain of blood elves and Nightborne and therefore the fans shouldn't want or desire this, no, because it's on the horde now, it belongs to the horde, because the way they view it, thnightborne on the horde means the night elves no longer have access to these things. The highborne have been deleted, arcane magic has disappeared from the night elves, and they've insted of moving forward and restoring their stuff, they've instead moved back into sleeping in trees and caves in animal forms, with their savage jaws ripping the throats out of their prey and feasting, before they go on their next wild hunt.

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I see you Like night elves, but you are realy pushing it here man.. That long vigil era is long over and the only spark thaat could light up their lazy asses was Suramar. They blew it and I don't see it return any time soon.

Now stop quoting me with the same thing over and over again, you don't need to convince me or anything.
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Then I notice you don't seem to have understood what really liking something means. If you think I'm going to like kaldorei things that look really cool and feel it cool to be annexed away from them when they are finally now showing them to us, and bringing them in-game. Ofc I am not. Why would you they do that? And why would you think they are doing that? This is what perplexes me about you, and I must no - unless you're trolling us. I am fully aware that this is not what blizzard is doing anyway. - quite the opposite actually, by bringing Suramar, and all the kaldorei lore in the broken isles, and continuing with Zin'Azshari in BFa, keeping up the presence of the arcane wielding night elves, they aren't taking anything away from the night elves, but rather showing us more, and they are giving the blood elves and the horde elves a part in it, because the Night elves are the original elf race, just like the Darkspear and other trolls are having a part in the Zandalari atm, the difference is the elves are split across the factions, and if faction separation wasn't influencing this, this conversation would not be happening.

[Tharivor]

I don't think you are accepting that the highborne are part of the present day Darnassian set up. Even though that is what the game shows and the lore shows.

I thought perhaps I would try to explain it, and even others too have, but when you make statements like that, it just seems you're refusing to accept. You think night elves have no part in the arcane side of their race own race and feel that because it was huge in the past it's not a part of them any longer despite seeing both. Yet you're wrong on both parts, highborne, and arcane night elf wielders are in the present, and their past achievements and their origin are all a part of them.

I stated several times in the post you quoted that I accepted the presence of the Shendralar Highborne in present day Darnassian society. However unlike you I also accept their current status in that society as a minority that have assimilated into wider Night Elf culture. I mean just look at the Tower of Estulan in Feralas- its the only example we have of a newly built Shendralar settlement and they chose a Darnassus style architecture to do so.

What I don't accept is the idea that because the Shendralar are present it makes sense for the Night Elves to start building huge arcane-themed cities and develop a whole arcane-based society like the Nightborne. This is because it is both not depicted in game and goes against what is depicted in game for both the present-day Shenralar and modern Night Elf society as whole.

I read the lore books, waited to see this stuff of the night elves, when it finally came it was nice. I certainly won't be okay about blizzard going down the line saying oh, this is now exclusively Nightborne territory, Kaldorei have no part of this. I'd be like wtf.

But ofc, it's not blizzard that's saying this, it's Alanar and Tharivor who can't handle this stuff being part of the night elves, because they're use to seeing night elves in places like this.

When/if Blizzard depicts modern Darnassian Night Elves (including the Shendralar Highborne) showing any interest in building arcane pre-sundering Highborne style cities then I'll believe it. Until then you just have headcanon.

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Erm, the game should reflect the races as they are intended to be. it's not one thing for the lore and another thing for the game. If it's in the lore it will be in the game even if you don't see it yet, - remember how long it took for us to have BElves properly? At first we were rarely seen night elf clones. But we came. If it's in the game its in the lore.

Darnassian night elves - aren't they the core night elf group? Wait I'm not even sure what point you guys are making ?


If you ask me the blood elves should be the main race all the aspects of the Thalassian elves are shown.. i don't mind if high elves show some of these or void elves some also, but if ti's Thalassian territory, it should be represented in the blood elves. I am thinking the same should be for the night elves and every core race.. especially if you're the main group.

But i'm not sure what the problem is, the Darnassians have all the night elf bits in their group, they have the druid, the priestess of elune, the Highborne, and the night elf demon hunter leader is with them, just like the blood elf demon hunter leader is with the blood elves.

How they are intended to be is how they are depicted- why would the devs do anything else? There is no conflict between in-game depiction and lore; such a conflict only exists in the minds of those who prefer headcanon over the actual lore.

And yes thats exactly my point- that the core Night Elf group keep their core themes as already depicted in game rather than undergoing a massive cultural shift to make them more like the Nightborne. I don't have any problem with more additions to flesh out Night Elf mages and Demon Hunters as they currently exist, but that shouldn't involve shifting these two groups from the fringes of Darnassian society to its centre.

Blood Elves are their own lore mess in any case- are they all Light worshippers now? is using the Fel still legal? are the more reckless attitudes towards magic adopted under Kael'thas abandoned or still practised? Visiting Silvermoon is like going through a faulty time machine. And I say this as a Blood Elf fan.

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Exactly, as if anyone is going to look at this:





and this:





Knowing full well it's your fave' races stuff, and be happy with it only being part of the off shoot race stuck on the enemy faction, and being told that this racial stuff is not yours any longer, it belongs exclusively to your enemy faction and you have to switch sides to be a part of that aspect of your race - and expect me to like it or agree. I think some people here are in denial that the above is Kaldorei stuff. They actually view the highborne as a horde group and the arcane aspect of the night elves as not really night elven. For real !
I want both my forests and my cities. I did like night elves only for the forest parts, I liked them for these other bits too. I am fine with Nightborne being around too, but to think that oh blizzard should give all the rcail magical and civilization stuff to the sub race, and have the main race relgated to forest and ruins eternally pwah.

I'll take my forests and my citeies and my culture and racial attributes thank you. Arcane, nature, Moon priestess and demon hunter alike.





nothing is being pushed here, you seem to be in denial that any of this is part of the night elves and feel that this aspect is developed exclusively for the horde and should remain on the horde, because night elves having it would make them clash with the horde.

It's totally ridiculous man. If blizzard didn't want the night elves to have any of that stuff, they wouldn't have given it to them in the first place. And if it was forever to be only a thing of the past, they would still have them living in forests, and exclusively druids and sentinels. But they didn't.

But then, we are letting ourselves get trolled, by a troll fan.

The problem is you see everything here in terms of faction. Just because Nightborne ended up on the Horde doesn't mean now Darnassian Night Elves have to become Nightborne so that you can play your preferred themes in blue. I have both Alliance and Horde characters, including Night Elves and Blood Elves- its not impossible.

[FossilFree]

I guess men are in on the markings party.

I still want jewellery. I am willing to wait to see it, but it has to make it in at some point. It's practically essential.

New hair colors, skin tones, and markings that look Highborne?

It's happening people!

[ravenmoon]

I guess men are in on the markings party.

I still want jewellery. I am willing to wait to see it, but it has to make it in at some point. It's practically essential.

The jewelry would be awesome.

I am definitely seeing the DH level of definition on the chest with chest tattoos there, while that isn't highbrone, I'm loving it for my druid, while I am 100% behind a full highborne customisation, I think the original druid types also need some new stuff too.. like bushier wilder beards and tattoos. However it would be disappointing if we only got that and no neater highborne type ones too.

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New hair colors, skin tones, and markings that look Highborne?

It's happening people!

Well the hair colour - perhaps (if you're referring to blonde), but it could easily mean the wow races can now dye their hari rather than it being a natural colour. however the black and pink are more common amongst the arcane wielding Nelves, in particular the highbonre, so .. maybe?

I'm not sure the markings look highborne though, they look more druidic, like the night elf male druids in WC3 had tattoo markings like those.

The bluish teal skin tone is definitly looking promising for the highborne customisation.


However I am really expecting a lot for night elves. especialyl making up for the lacklustre disapointment that was 6.0

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The problem is you see everything here in terms of faction. Just because Nightborne ended up on the Horde doesn't mean now Darnassian Night Elves have to become Nightborne so that you can play your preferred themes in blue. I have both Alliance and Horde characters, including Night Elves and Blood Elves- its not impossible.

Darnassian night elves do not become Nightborne by having or being highborne. Where are you coming with this from? Having and living in cities, being elite and high class , and being maestros of arcane do not make them Nightborne, this is what the highborne are. The Nightborne are modelled on that part of the night elves, not the other way around. And this is not what defines the Nightborne in comparison to the kaldorei.

What defines the Nightborne is their different night elven model, their unique history under the shield and the interaction with the nightwell. Things like Suramar, city life, elitism, high class stuff, arcane magic - all that stuff is from the night elf part of their heritage.


You seem to keep forgetting, that Darnassian Highborne are already playable and part of the blue team, and they are their first and the origin race having all these parts to them.

No one here is requesting that the highborne be Nightborne. They want the highborne to be Highborne. And I want the civilization and arcane side of the Kaldorei to show more prominently in them.

But I think @Mace is right, you seem to be missing the point of what Allied races are for. They are not replacements or substitution for core races. They are additions. Because Nightborne are around doesn't automatically mean that now all the Kaldorei civilization, and arcane magic expertise and display now belongs to the Nightborne and the Kaldorie must only have the parts of them that relate to the forest druids and priests. No.. allied races/sub races are not their to remove anything from the core races. You have been pointed out that Highmountain, Lightforged, Void elves, Kul'tirans all share the vast majority of things with their core races, they are just different versions of their core races with their own unique story, just like you would have a different nation of humans that have a different history and story, doesn't make them some new race or all of sudden mean those parts are no longer in the original race.

That's not correct thinking.

[Astranea]

I honestly can't understand why the Shen'dralar Highborne being a minority within the Night Elves community would be a problem.

Isn't that a fact, for the simple reason that their number has decreased during the years of isolation, plus, Tortheldrin and his loyalists had been murdering their people in Dire Maul to save on the available magic energy from the demon they were siphoning?

But this does not mean that the Night Elves cannot get a couple of extra skins colors and jewelry.

In fact, jewelry as a feature makes sense for Night Elves despite of a noble heritage, and lighter and darker shades of skin are being already added to other races for no other reasons than variety. :-)

If anything, the skins for male Night Elves always were much darker than those for the ladies, and it would at the very least be nice if the two could see their colors equalized with the addition of lighter tones to the males and darker to the females - without this being necessarily related to the Highborne in any way.

So when there are light skin tones and jewelry a player could customize their mage character with those and call him/her a Highborne. ;-)

Then again... the Wildhammer dwarves were established with Vanilla as a isolated clan, got their story moved a little forward in Cataclysm reuniting with their kin and starting to teach the shamanic arts (sounds familiar?) and are finally seeing some customization now. This undoubtedly makes one hope that the same may happen for others as well. :-)

As for the new customization in the Alpha... not much so far, but I would not consider it done.
I can't imagine Blizzard would go through the whole process of giving Undead the unrotten skins and then just add a couple of skins to a popular race such as the Night Elves.

As for what the destruction of Darnassus is concerned... up to Blizzard to show us what the Night Elves will do next, if anything at all. I cannot truly speculate on this one, although it is easy to imagine them use the druidic arts to fold trees into temporary/emergency dwellings, simply because that takes a shorter time than building a new city in marble and stone.

[FossilFree]

Well the hair colour - perhaps (if you're referring to blonde), but it could easily mean the wow races can now dye their hari rather than it being a natural colour. however the black and pink are more common amongst the arcane wielding Nelves, in particular the highbonre, so .. maybe?

I'm not sure the markings look highborne though, they look more druidic, like the night elf male druids in WC3 had tattoo markings like those.

The bluish teal skin tone is definitly looking promising for the highborne customisation.


However I am really expecting a lot for night elves. especialyl making up for the lacklustre disapointment that was 6.0

Well the eye markings (tattoos?) do look very similar to the ones Azshara had in the Well of Eternity dungeon.

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I honestly can't understand why the Shen'dralar Highborne being a minority within the Night Elves community would be a problem.

Isn't that a fact, for the simple reason that their number has decreased during the years of isolation, plus, Tortheldrin and his loyalists had been murdering their people in Dire Maul to save on the available energy?

But does this mean that the Night Elves cannot get a couple of extra skins colors and jewelry?

Nonsense - as jewelry as a feature makes sense for Night Elves despite of a noble heritage, and lighter and darker shades of skin are being already added to other races for no other reasons than variety. :-)

If anything, the skins for male Night Elves always had much darker than those for the ladies, and it would at the very least be nice if the two could see their colors equalized with the addition of lighter tones to the males and darker to the females - without this being necessarily related to the Highborne in any way.

But then again... the Wildhammer dwarves were established with Vanilla as a isolated clan, got their story moved a little forward in Cataclysm (reuniting with their kin and starting to teach the shamanic arts - sounds familiar?) and are finally seeing some customization now... So this makes one hope that the same may happen for others as well.

I think some new hairstyles would also be great, especially a curly one.

[Hellspawn]

Tattoos:

[Yarathir]

Tattoos:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...256/image0.jpg

Looks like some sort of failed member of a Metal Band.

[Astranea]

Tattoos:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...256/image0.jpg

Well, the Team Savage Kaldorei should be happy at least. :-)

[Alanar]

Tattoos:

The markings kinda look rediculous.. idk. I guess it fits the amazon feel.

[Mace]

This kinda summs up what I was trying say to mace, my eyes rolled back when I got quoted with a essay of headcanon where my head started to hurt.

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You are not even reading what I am saying. Exactly what have I said that is head canon? This is why you're not winning any argument. You're not making sense, and you're not reading what is being said. It's obvious. I may disagree with Tharivor on the main point he is making, but he is at least reading.

If you make an incorrect claim, I point it out to you, and I explain it to you, and you don't bother to read it, but just surmise headcanon, then what is the point of even getting through to you? You are obviously not engaging to have a discussion, you've made up your mind and are ignoring the very information I am taking the time to write.

Why don't you go through the discussion, especially the points I am making with Tharivor, and read, listen. Stop trying to fix the night elves based on partial lore you've gleaned and conclusions you've made, look at what blizzard has written, what they've presented and shown, and base your conclusions on them. It'st heir story and lore, if they are showing you one thing and you imple don't even have the time to read it, but instead would rather harp on about the incomplete info you know - you're not going to persuade me or anyone in here. At least with Tharivor I can respond on a point to point basis.

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Realy? you compare all of that to the 2 ruling forces with tauren there? Where the arcane is such a small fraction of the night elves it's not ev... m8 you are overreacting.

I don't think what you are looking for is in the night elves anymore.. atleast not that prominent. You can't deny the whole Suramar campaign and it's closure to the Night elves, why would they care now? I am sorry, but you are repeating and spamming at the same time and it'not helping you here.

I see you Like night elves, but you are realy pushing it here man.. That long vigil era is long over and the only spark thaat could light up their lazy asses was Suramar. They blew it and I don't see it return any time soon.

Now stop quoting me with the same thing over and over again, you don't need to convince me or anything.

It doesn't matter whether you think the arcane is small part of the night elves or large... the Nightborne are not replacements for the highborne. They are not blizzard going "hey, the kaldorei arcane stuff is only Nightborne now" - an allied race is not replacing a core races attributes or history. Did you see them remove night elf highborne and mages after the introduction of the Nightborne? Did they change the history of Suramar and call it a Nightborne city?

Did they delete the night elf mage option? Did they come out with a statement saying that now the night elves are no longer arcane users, and no longer have access to their heritage, we are removing the highborne order cos the Nightborne doe everything?

Yet, you reach this conclusion and say what I am saying is headcanon?

You make an assumption, not based on fact, with evidence to the contrary, and you call the other person's statements headcanon. Oh yes.. I guess my night elf toon is headcanon… all the night elf highborne and mages in game are headcanon.

I make a valid comparison to the Highmountain tauren, the Lightforged, others join in, pointing out the void elves, the Kul'tirans, explaining to you Nightborne nor any allied race are not meant as replacements for any core race.. but in your head, Nightborne are replacements only for night elves, because you don't see night elves as having anything to do with their ow n magic and lore --it's small you say, it's in the past you say, none of which matter, none of which change - the presence and validity of the night elves and their arcane side, the presence , playability and existence of the highborne, and the fact that Suramar, Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, Darnassus are all night elven, night elven lore and part of the race and are all present in the game whether in ruins or pristine, whether in large amounts or small amounts.

But no, alliance players are somehow having headcanon issues or crazy to want what you claim is horde stuff now, and belonging to the Nightborne, as if it is some exclusive property deemed for the Nightborne (whether they are in the horde or not)

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I honestly can't understand why the Shen'dralar Highborne being a minority within the Night Elves community would be a problem.

It is mostly an issue with some horde fans, not all, not most, just a handful - I suspect it's some sort of jealousy thing , spill over from high elves. something goes horde and all of a sudden, it's all there, they would fight tooth and nail in pointless argumetns that don't change anything why somehow it is invalid for alliance players, the arguments anre baseless and unreasonable, they fail to counter any of the points and just bring up useless biased information.

As I said minority. There are some alliance players also opposed, they are definitely in the vast minority, they are either ones who hate elves, or night elf lovers who love one particular aspectofof the night elves and want the entire race soley focused on that. Also quite unreasonable, as if the race can't have several things tot hem, like every other race in Warcraft. These typically seem to be die hard fans of the female warrior/sentinel aspect of the night elves - they criticise the druidic portrayl heavily and come down on anyone that suggests Night elves should continue to have a role in their arcane half. They think all of wow's night elf lore is a mistake - and use the bad portrayal and neglect of blizzard updating the night elves as some sort of validation that all the other additions and lore from cataclysm, whether druidic or arcane is some sort of big mistake. In essence, anything that is not 100% WC3 (which they really enjoyed and played many times) is unacceptable to them. Fact is they didnt' even read the very night elf introduction in the WC3 manual, and I am certain they tossed aside WotA trilogy, Wolfheart, Illidan - basically claiming all the night elf lore, but the one they liked and played is trash.


You can't reason with such people., you sit them down, point out the truth to them, correctly. But they won't listen, tey'd argue, make noise. You repeat, they still won't listen. Because they don't want to, Truth is they want what they want, and everyone else who has an alternative desire be damned.


Rest assured the lore is on your side. because Shen'dralar, highborne are very much a part of the night elves currently and in the past. It's a huge part of their lore, and current highborne group is no small minority like some of the like to think. Yes, they like to think, they say it is only a handful of shen'drlaar, but fail to give any solid account of how small or large the numbers are given that it was an entire city section evacuated. They also fail to account all the Darnassians that joined them, those who were formely highborne, and those who are brand new novices. Ignore the quite considerable number of nobbvices and returned highborne in Azxshara and those in Feralas - as well as the night elf mages accounting for not small and not insignificant number of night elven units in WoD, the vast quantity in legion and ofc those that show up in the assaults with the alliance troops and 7th legion.

Do not let them get to you. at all.


The fact is, whether a minority or majority, however numbers is (it's not like that has ever mattered in wow), they are there. Void elves, Illidari, Gnomes, , (night elves now), even blood elvs, were all greatly minority races. Especially the first 2, that doesn't diminish their significance nor does it mean they're not there. Same with the high elves, we have no idea wht their numbers are, they are small, but they are there, and they keep showing up much to the chagrin of haters. Greatly loved by many a folk, especially on the alliance, but despised by some hordies, they'd be all too delighted if high elves were deleted, because they want the race exclusively to themselves on the faction they identify with, unable to look beyond the faction divide.

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The markings kinda look rediculous.. idk. I guess it fits the amazon feel.

They are indeed, I noticed the males don't have eyebrows still.. I mean, it just gets disappointing again and again. Maybe I should switch my affections back to the orcs.

[matrix123mko]

They are indeed, I noticed the males don't have eyebrows still.. I mean, it just gets disappointing again and again.

It is not that difficult to add. Go on official forums and ask for that before we go out of Alpha.

[ravenmoon]

The markings kinda look rediculous.. idk. I guess it fits the amazon feel.

I like em. It's gonna look great on my druid.

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They are indeed, I noticed the males don't have eyebrows still.. I mean, it just gets disappointing again and again. Maybe I should switch my affections back to the orcs.

I think they look really cool.


p.s. you could also tone it down a tad, I thought you wre the cool headed one. He's not against highborne oh such, he just htinks they're so small a part of the playable kaldorei they don't warrant anything been done, And Tharivor feels nothing should be done because the Nightborne already do that now.

I ofc disagree. But that's hwo they feel, I concur the evidence paints a different picture, and hope that the Kaldorei arcane legacy continues just as strongly in their highborne caste as it is shown through the Nightborne. I don't think because Nightborne are around like that means there is no place for that part of the Kaldorei in the actual kaldorei themselves, and I also strongly feel that the Kaldorei should have the bigger display, because this is their lore primarily and they're the core race. it is also the Nightborne lore being a sub-race of said Kaldorei, and I also feel the Nightborne should have a measure of druidsm and Elunism in them too - I'm okay if they don't, but it's part of their identity, or at least was until 7.3. 5 -

That's my opinion. At the end of the day, Night elf mages and highborne aren't going anywhere. And the lore is still night elf lore, Nightborne don't change that. Like all allied races, they are good to have, but void elves won't remove the advancement of blood elves, no would Highmountain substitute the nature shamanism in the Tauren. I agree.

However blizzard yet have to show they are serious about developing the highborne in the night elves, and you know them, it might take a while.

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Well, the Team Savage Kaldorei should be happy at least. :-)

I'm not team savage Kaldorei, well maybe I am half, and I like it. I would be disappointed if this was all therew as for night elves. Even for the druidic male type set,, where are my bushy Malfurion-esque beards?

Like you, I'd also be disappointed if no highborne cusotmisation came, I think it is appropriate and quite cool if the night elf had an Illidari like treatment but for the highborne.. that goes beyond just blond hair dye or an Azshara skin tone.

I'm talking new faces, neat trimmed different beard styles,, new hairstyles, and arcane features like Mace was describing.. a package, set to the mage class in character creation, but having all the extra options apart from the arcane features available in the barbershop. That's what my wish is.

You see how limited the male face options are, overly lined the vast majority, limited beard and hair optons, none representing the highborne, and not enough bushy wild ones either but at least all the present ones fit the druid theme, however only 1 can be said to fit the highborne theme amongst the male, and 2 amongst the female, that's not nearly enough.

The most pronounced changes would be if theNElf highborne cusotmisaton wehther via skin option or arcane features would provide a different idle stand pose.

It's a lot to expect which usuall y = dispaointment.

but so far, I really like the tattoo for the male.

[Mace]

I like em. It's gonna look great on my druid.


I think they look really cool.

Good for you, they do not. What are they trying to show? They don't even have eyebrows fixed properly yet, and are lacking proper representation for the highborne group, and this is what they're focusing on doing?

Sorry, not impressed. good for you if you like it. It is early days, and more is to come, but we've heard that before, many times, and NOTHING came. While all the detail was poured into Blood elves, humans, Dwarves, Orcs and all time favourites Undead etc.

p.s. you could also tone it down a tad, I thought you wre the cool headed one.

Why should I , he's the one in the wrong and calling what I have written headcanon, when the things I've stated in the game and in the lore. He is stating head canon if he thinks the Nightborne substitute or replace the Highborne - blizzard have never shown or stated that. If they were, you would not see anymore Highborne, and night elf mages would be removed. You also see across every other allied race, that they reflect their core races, not one of them is substituting or replacing them. Who here is spouting head canon?

He's not against highborne oh such, he just htinks they're so small a part of the playable kaldorei they don't warrant anything been done, And Tharivor feels nothing should be done because the Nightborne already do that now.

I ofc disagree. But that's hwo they feel, I concur the evidence paints a different picture, and hope that the Kaldorei arcane legacy continues just as strongly in their highborne caste as it is shown through the Nightborne. I don't think because Nightborne are around like that means there is no place for that part of the Kaldorei in the actual kaldorei themselves, and I also strongly feel that the Kaldorei should have the bigger display, because this is their lore primarily and they're the core race. it is also the Nightborne lore being a sub-race of said Kaldorei, and I also feel the Nightborne should have a measure of druidsm and Elunism in them too - I'm okay if they don't, but it's part of their identity, or at least was until 7.3. 5 -

That's my opinion. At the end of the day, Night elf mages and highborne aren't going anywhere. And the lore is still night elf lore, Nightborne don't change that. Like all allied races, they are good to have, but void elves won't remove the advancement of blood elves, no would Highmountain substitute the nature shamanism in the Tauren. I agree.

However blizzard yet have to show they are serious about developing the highborne in the night elves, and you know them, it might take a while.

Nightborne and Suramar ARE the evidence that blizzard was seriously developing the Highborne and arcane culture of the Night elf. Look at the effort put into it. It's lifted off the pages of WotA and fits the vibe of the Night elves' pre-sundering culture but around the famous invasion period. The Azsuna Farondis model the Kaldorei as they were before addiction, because Farondis, through wise leadership, led his people well and didn't succumb to the madness going on in Zin'Azshari.

Both are night elven.. it's not just the good parts, or the good Highborne, or the druids or the priests that are night elven, the bad parts are too, the insufferable arrogance of the kaldorei, especially the Highborne, is what you see in Suramar, this is exactly how the night elven caste was written as.

This is blizzard writing the night elf lore, just because the Nightborne go horde doesn't change any of that, or what they are. Anymore than it eliminates the need or the validity of the Highborne on the alliance side. [If anything the Nightborne are the cocky highborne side of the night elves , the current Highborne are the original vein of the cast, the once arrogant but now redeemed. This is how they differe, not some imaginary substitution.

They are the same people but looking totally different. Sort of like High elves and blood elves if High elves were to be skinnier and paler. The Highborne amongst the Darnassians are the redeemed cadre of the caste, they have Shen'dralar who are now uncorrupted having broken free of arcane addiction and demonic corruption, and the Darnassian Highborne joining them who have been 10k years free of addiction. Their mindset is going to be different from the Nightborne because of what they've endured, living outside a bubble, this is how they a different psychologically, even though they are also the same group/people.

Just like Blood elves have taken a philosophically different stance to their former high elf selves, which the high elves still maintain. Yet while the same people they are different.

you can't then come and say that because Nightborne exist, the other group that also exists (and unlike high elves, are actually playable), have no relevance to the part of the lore they are all about.

Suramar shows blizzards commitment to this, and expecting or desiring the Night elf model highborne to reflect better the look and feel of the highborne caste is not unreasonable, nor is it demanding to be identical to the Nightborne. It is what the highbonre are, and they are already different from the Nightborne because they have the more whole/healthy Night elf bodies and were exposed to the post sundering world and have had much more time to deal with it than the Nightborne have. They are closer to the Farondis type display, while the nighitborne have only just got a taste of humble pie, but really haven't had to face the realities the highborne and kaldorei have had around for 10k years in a post sundering world or the shen'drlar for a few ywears, outside their fancy cities and magical conveniences.

[ravenmoon]

Good for you, they do not. What are they trying to show? They don't even have eyebrows fixed properly yet, and are lacking proper representation for the highborne group, and this is what they're focusing on doing?

Sorry, not impressed. good for you if you like it. It is early days, and more is to come, but we've heard that before, many times, and NOTHING came. While all the detail was poured into Blood elves, humans, Dwarves, Orcs and all time favourites Undead etc.

Why should I , he's the one in the wrong and calling what I have written headcanon, when the things I've stated in the game and in the lore. He is stating head canon if he thinks the Nightborne substitute or replace the Highborne - blizzard have never shown or stated that. If they were, you would not see anymore Highborne, and night elf mages would be removed. You also see across every other allied race, that they reflect their core races, not one of them is substituting or replacing them. Who here is spouting head canon?


Nightborne and Suramar ARE the evidence that blizzard was seriously developing the Highborne and arcane culture of the Night elf. Look at the effort put into it. It's lifted off the pages of WotA and fits the vibe of the Night elves' pre-sundering culture but around the famous invasion period. The Azsuna Farondis model the Kaldorei as they were before addiction, because Farondis, through wise leadership, led his people well and didn't succumb to the madness going on in Zin'Azshari.

Both are night elven.. it's not just the good parts, or the good Highborne, or the druids or the priests that are night elven, the bad parts are too, the insufferable arrogance of the kaldorei, especially the Highborne, is what you see in Suramar, this is exactly how the night elven caste was written as.

This is blizzard writing the night elf lore, just because the Nightborne go horde doesn't change any of that, or what they are. Anymore than it eliminates the need or the validity of the Highborne on the alliance side. [If anything the Nightborne are the cocky highborne side of the night elves , the current Highborne are the original vein of the cast, the once arrogant but now redeemed. This is how they differe, not some imaginary substitution.

They are the same people but looking totally different. Sort of like High elves and blood elves if High elves were to be skinnier and paler. The Highborne amongst the Darnassians are the redeemed cadre of the caste, they have Shen'dralar who are now uncorrupted having broken free of arcane addiction and demonic corruption, and the Darnassian Highborne joining them who have been 10k years free of addiction. Their mindset is going to be different from the Nightborne because of what they've endured, living outside a bubble, this is how they a different psychologically, even though they are also the same group/people.

Just like Blood elves have taken a philosophically different stance to their former high elf selves, which the high elves still maintain. Yet while the same people they are different.

you can't then come and say that because Nightborne exist, the other group that also exists (and unlike high elves, are actually playable), have no relevance to the part of the lore they are all about.

Suramar shows blizzards commitment to this, and expecting or desiring the Night elf model highborne to reflect better the look and feel of the highborne caste is not unreasonable, nor is it demanding to be identical to the Nightborne. It is what the highbonre are, and they are already different from the Nightborne because they have the more whole/healthy Night elf bodies and were exposed to the post sundering world and have had much more time to deal with it than the Nightborne have. They are closer to the Farondis type display, while the nighitborne have only just got a taste of humble pie, but really haven't had to face the realities the highborne and kaldorei have had around for 10k years in a post sundering world or the shen'drlar for a few ywears, outside their fancy cities and magical conveniences.

Hey, I'm with you on this one, well mostly. The issue with night elves, is that the in-game portrayal early levelling experience and the WC3 one had a heavy Wood elf focus, and men a driven primarily by what they see, without the context of the books, these guys have fallen into the trap and felt that night elves are all or mostly about the forest life and nature when in actual fact it's only part (about half) of their make up.

But if they took the time to look closely, like you've done, and others, they'd see actually, the forest and wood elf bits are about 1/3 of all the stuff about night elves. TBC and WotLK expansions only ever had night elves show up when druid stuff was being seen. This was the first 6 years of wow, and you know what they say about 1st impressions.

I think it really has set in the minds of a lot of older players who haven't been focused on this race, to categorise them such and no further. I mean the stuff with D.E.H.T.A and the Cenarion Expedition had nothing to do with the Night elves, it was druid thing through and through. But blizzard never showed night elves in any quantity in any other capacity. You never saw the Priestesses of Elune calling down stars and evangelising for the goddess spreading the doctrines of Elune, you didn't see the sentinels and huntresses do anything save acta as guards - they weren't involved in any racial activity.

The Highborne showed up in 1.1 and everyone could gain reputation with them, they wouldn't join the night elves and rebuild the caste till 4.0 by which time most people weren't levelling for story, but to breeze through to get to end game.

Right now you think of Ardenweald and Night Elves come to mind, when it should be druids that come to mind. Which is why when they think of Suramar and Zin'Azshari, blood elves and high elves come to mind, when it should also be Night elves coming to mind. The ever so slight altered appearance of the Nightborne (not blizzards fault really), had the fans totally overshooting the Nightborne as a 3rd elven category than the far more obvious Night elf sub-race entirely based on Night elf lore that they are. Why? Because they don't associate magic, or civilization with night elves, only nature and forests. Why? Because they don't pay attention to the lore, they are going on their levelling experience..

Wanna bet the same feel the Highborne returning is wrong, it's not night elf lore, it doesn't belong there? No basis for this.. it's feeling more than anything and it's because of all this.

"...But why would blizzard design all that forest stuff for the night elves and not cities and arcane magic if that's what they intended?" Blizzard told you about the cities, the arcane magic, the Well of Eternity, ..these were all central themes to the night elves.. you didn't get to see Hyjal till 4.0 and the famous well of Eternity till then, - they simply took a while to show you everything but they spoke about everything in their night elf books.

They started with the forest thing cos that was the set they wanted for WC3, and it comes at the end of the Night Elves' long vigil, so it's 10k years after there civilization, and they've been living in their post-Utopian era in a grim reality watching out for a malevolent evil that is responsible for why they aren't using their magic. (which blizzard is saving for later - I guess they never heard of long term planning or spacing - FYI, those who don't believe need to read that Dev interview, and need to pay attention that these other aspects of the night elves were part of the race in planning from the start. The WC3 manual itself sets it up. WotA trilogy was commissioned when WC3 was being designed and it was written over the years leading up to WoW's release.

It's not some change to the night elves, and the forest start we get was not meant to be the be all or the MAIN thing of the race, it was just the bit they showed first. And were careful in their introduction to set the initial stage. The first to study magic and release it over the world.. a great magical civilization...)


It is neither your fault, nor mine if people refuse to see what is clearly in front of them, or choose to deny the existence of that side of the night elves because it doesn't fit their narrative. One of the guys thinks "it's in the past" - so therefore it's not a part of them. Then on rebuttal, makes the excuse "but they're a tiny near nothing section of the night elves" - greatly diminishing their size and thus there relevance as it changes their presence, their impact and the clear evidence of their continual inclusion in the affairs of the race. The next thing they do is then take all the night elf lore in Suramar and the Nightborne and annex it from the night elves. "This is no longer the Night elves they say, it's the Nightborne now" - see? Notice a trend, nothing that's civilization, or arcane magic is night elves, no matter what the reasoning or explanation somehow it is something else they're all too happy to make an excuse to provide and mis-represent what is shown.

but hey, the information is all there, Suramar central Night elf city to the Kaldorei Darnassians, and all that we see in the broken Isles is the history of not just the Night elves, but the Darnassians. This is the homeland of the heroes of the War of Ancients. Suramar the city Tyrande was born in, Malfurion and Illidan lived in and were a part of, Jarod and Maiev Shadowsong come from. Black Rook Hold, where the Night elf Resistance comes together to fight the Demons, Azsuna the place of the first night elves to rebel, severely punished, providing a possible explanation why groups like the Shen'dralar and others took so long. Val'Sharah the birth place of druidism, the very forest Malfurion, a citizen of Suramar, born in the forest when his parents were on the way back to the city, meets Cenarius.


The Nightborne looking different or going horde, doesn't change any of that. Yet I witness people fight and argue tooth and nail to prove the Nightborne have nothing to do with the Night elves, and the Night elven arcane side is not night elven, but instead belongs to the High elves. So you have blood elf fans now considering themselves as Highborne - and I laugh.

I laugh because I was the very one about 10 years ago, presenting the case that the High/blood elves may still consider themselves Highborne. But when the ruins of Eldre'thalas and the many ruins around the world were all there was to show of the Highborne and the arcane civilization of the Night elves, they were very quick to point out they don't, they see themselves as High elves, even though Quel'dorei is the same name, they argued that it's Quel'dorei in Thalassian, which means high elf, not Highborne - that's a night elf thing.

Such a reversal now, now they can't stop comparing the Nightborne to the Blood elves, and all the teeth come out when people like me, touted as alliance fans say , no it's a night elf thing, it's night elf lore - Head canon they say - yes I get that too- the term they use when an opinion or explanation is given that they don't like or when they refuse to acknowledge the information they're given and notice how they never actually prove or show what is headcanon - note, and you'd waste your time explaining to them, they'd just not read it, yet feel entitled for their ignorant response to be taken seriously.

So I get it, I really do. I notice trends, like how it's usually the same lot, horde centric fans, who somehow feel that night elves should be primitive and wild only and that civilization and high magical fantasy is a blood elf thing only, who have taken the night elven Highborne lore and arcane civilization and feel it is blood elf lore only not night elf lore - because Blood elves came from Highborne, and night elves abandoned magic - You hear it all the time, it never occurs to them to think for a moment how clearly biased they are being, that in this story , high elves come from Night elves, and Highborne is the where the connection is, this doesn't make Highborne blood elf lore and somehow annexed from Night elf lore, Highborne are 100% part of Night elf lore, they're ALL NIGHT ELVEN. Furthermore they ignore that the current Highborne are still around, still playing a role, and you keep seeing more show up. Now a city with a lot of them shows up , they get a new look, but all of a sudden, that makes them not night elf related. - Notice the trend?


It's anything to avoid acknowledging Night elves have this part of their race, and its theirs, Anything to claim that they have no right to it, so Night elves should only have forest, druids and ruins, while it's the blood elves and the horde elves that should have lovely elven magical cities and all the good stuff o the night elf lore.

It goes beyond them to think that hey Night elf Highborne can and have always been intended to be a part of the night elves, for better of for worse, the story that is written to see the reason night elves stopped using arcane magic in the Darnassus group only (cos this wasn't the case for the Shen'dralar or Broken Isle Suramar groups) just happened to end on the very first game of their introduction when the MMO was been planned and design. Another clue that should tell them, night elves staying away from magic forever was never the plan, their reason for that ends with the return of the Legion and the end of the Long vigil.

How can you then say Highborne, the arcane, and night elf cities are not part of them, when Darnassus was one of the first things shown and the Shen'dralar re-joined in 4.0, with Suramar and Azsuna large as life in 7.0?


The evidence is there, it is actually quite well liked. Loko at how many of them are fawning over Suramar and the Nightborne. . Night elf lore is loved, and ofc, the partisan mind of fans wants only their side to posses it alone.

So here I am, advocating for more of this for the alliance alongside yourself, Astranea, Fossilfree and others, not the removal of it form the horde, and look at them having telling us all that this shouldn't be a part of the Night elves - as if they're really interested in night elves or have really followed the race.

[Astranea]

Well, at least the lighter skin tone for the males (source: wowhead) could be of some use for a Highborne, despite of the overly muscular build. And I really like the dark, drow-like skins as well. If they make those tattoos available in white it would be a nice contrast.

But I can't help feeling this is really just a very rough alpha preview, seeing how much more has come for other races, of much higher quality.

[Yarathir]

But I can't help feeling this is really just a very rough alpha preview, seeing how much more has come for other races, of much higher quality.

It is. This stuff isn't even usable ingame yet and Blizzard has said official early tests of the new customization will come in a little bit, with even more customization in builds after that.

All we see right now is new textures that can show us new skins and a few new tattoos, and I will assume that even those aren't complete. We see no new hairstyles or anything like that yet.*

*There are "new" hairstyles in the char creation, but they aren't new. These have existed either since 4.2 and were updated with 6.0 but just never made available, or they were added for the first time in 6.0 and similarly never made available. The long draenei tail has also existed in the files since 6.0.

[Mace]

It is. This stuff isn't even usable ingame yet and Blizzard has said official early tests of the new customization will come in a little bit, with even more customization in builds after that.

All we see right now is new textures that can show us new skins and a few new tattoos, and I will assume that even those aren't complete. We see no new hairstyles or anything like that yet.*

*There are "new" hairstyles in the char creation, but they aren't new. These have existed either since 4.2 and were updated with 6.0 but just never made available, or they were added for the first time in 6.0 and similarly never made available. The long draenei tail has also existed in the files since 6.0.

Indeed they said that there are more customisation options coming next week, ( a lot more) and more further down the line in their time table for updates.

I towuld be really disappointing not to have eyebrows on males with no beards, or no new faces too.

- - - Updated - - -

Snip

I just don't like people going on as if Night elves and the arcane or Highborne is not part of the race and all that stuff, which I happen to really like, should only be visible on the horde, and on an allied race at that, whiles the main race with the core fans of it, have to settle with only one version of night elf - the savage / tree hugger vibe.. when every other race has multiple expressions - and we see no species type in Warcraft have such a ridiculous delineation.

Tauren - whether Mulgore, Yaungol, Highmountain etc all have lots of similarities and are essentially flavours of each other
Trolls - whether Zandalari, Darkspear, Gurubashi, Drakkari, Amani, Farakki etc, all have lots of similarities and are essentially flavours of each other
Humans - whether Stormwind, Forsaken, Kul'tiran, Gilnean - all have lots of similarities and are essentially flavours of each other

etc
When we get to Elves - it is the same thing. And it annoys me that after explaining out, he still doesn't get it. Night elves have civilization, arcane, forestry nature, ranger hunters, priesthood magic - just like Thalassians, it's just a variation. Why Night elves should suddenly be the only elf group without it's own stuff is just wow..

And Nightborne? They are part of the night elf section of elves and the Elf species group. They are showing parts of the night elves, not taking them away, they happened to be the alteration of night elves blizzard created when they spun a story for why we have Suramar preserved. They do this all the time with sub-races, this is how we get Highmountain, Light forged, Void elves, Dark Irons, Mag'har etc, but those are all part of the core race genome.

Nightborne having Suramar or Kaldorei arcane magic doesn't make Night elves somehow have no right to it, or shouldn't have the customisation, or should only be about forests and druids. . Thalassians have rangers, magisters and blood knights - that's already 3 core parts of the race shared with the high elves, and the void elves but each group ahs their own variations and story differences, sometimes it's small like Moose horns instead of bull horns, or blue yes instead of green eyes, sometimes a little bit more like skinnier with a slightly different shade(the story determining the outlook).

What is the harm in having night elf fans have a lore-appropriate customisation for something that is a part of their race and that they can play.

[Yarathir]

I towuld be really disappointing not to have eyebrows on males with no beards, or no new faces too.

I swear, after all of their bluster about separating old customization options and new ones out, night elves still can't shave their beard without losing their eyebrows, then this is all one big meme.

[ravenmoon]

I just don't like people going on as if Night elves and the arcane or Highborne is not part of the race and all that stuff, which I happen to really like, should only be visible on the horde, and on an allied race at that, whiles the main race with the core fans of it, have to settle with only one version of night elf - the savage / tree hugger vibe.. when every other race has multiple expressions - and we see no species type in Warcraft have such a ridiculous delineation.

Tauren - whether Mulgore, Yaungol, Highmountain etc all have lots of similarities and are essentially flavours of each other
Trolls - whether Zandalari, Darkspear, Gurubashi, Drakkari, Amani, Farakki etc, all have lots of similarities and are essentially flavours of each other
Humans - whether Stormwind, Forsaken, Kul'tiran, Gilnean - all have lots of similarities and are essentially flavours of each other

etc
When we get to Elves - it is the same thing. And it annoys me that after explaining out, he still doesn't get it. Night elves have civilization, arcane, forestry nature, ranger hunters, priesthood magic - just like Thalassians, it's just a variation. Why Night elves should suddenly be the only elf group without it's own stuff is just wow..

And Nightborne? They are part of the night elf section of elves and the Elf species group. They are showing parts of the night elves, not taking them away, they happened to be the alteration of night elves blizzard created when they spun a story for why we have Suramar preserved. They do this all the time with sub-races, this is how we get Highmountain, Light forged, Void elves, Dark Irons, Mag'har etc, but those are all part of the core race genome.

Nightborne having Suramar or Kaldorei arcane magic doesn't make Night elves somehow have no right to it, or shouldn't have the customisation, or should only be about forests and druids. . Thalassians have rangers, magisters and blood knights - that's already 3 core parts of the race shared with the high elves, and the void elves but each group ahs their own variations and story differences, sometimes it's small like Moose horns instead of bull horns, or blue yes instead of green eyes, sometimes a little bit more like skinnier with a slightly different shade(the story determining the outlook).

What is the harm in having night elf fans have a lore-appropriate customisation for something that is a part of their race and that they can play.

Yes, but the good news is, it is as you say in game, not as he says. Night elves do have highborne, they do play a visible role, the pre-sundering aspect of the night elves is still with them, so is the magic and its powerful.

It doesn't have the visible showing that was displayed in the nighborne, they just need a great city and all that would take is for the night elves to take Suramar or share it, or have a new capital looking like Zin'Azshari or something. they already have imba magic users in-game you see Farondis and The Moonguard as quite powerful, and while we never saw the Shen'dralar actually in action, it's the same vein, ..it's there. Any body can say whatever they like really. But bottom line is we do have highborne, and blizzard do show them both on alliance and ofc on horde via the Nightborne.