Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (NOT High Elves)

[FossilFree]

Got one question.

Does it count for highborne? Skin tint i mean.

I think Blizzard is a bit free to determine what colors Highborne canonically have because there has never been clear word on what physical features define the Shen'dralar. Perhaps, like Nightborne, those with a large saturation of arcane energy in their bodies take on a darker hue. Azshara could be a one off, since her powers greatly exceeded any others and could have been further enhanced with water magic by her weapon Sharas'dal, Scepter of Tides.

[ravenmoon]

I think Blizzard is a bit free to determine what colors Highborne canonically have because there has never been clear word on what physical features define the Shen'dralar. Perhaps, like Nightborne, those with a large saturation of arcane energy in their bodies take on a darker hue. Azshara could be a one off, since her powers greatly exceeded any others and could have been further enhanced with water magic by her weapon Sharas'dal, Scepter of Tides.

You're righ they haven't really defined.

We know Night elves are purple because of their connection to the WEll of Eternity whose watrs are purple. Which is why many argue that when the highborne who became high elves were exiled, the severing that broke the connectons (presumably done by Cenarius and Malfurion as punishment) is why their skin tone changed.

We were told ages ago as well in the old wow enycolopedia article on eyes, that the reason the ngiht elves eyes glow silver is because of the arcane power they have within them due to their connection to the well of eternity. The high elves hold them in contempt for having had all that power for 7,000 years and doing nothing with it( save make gardens).

Peopel who keep trying to peg the night elves as forest elves only either dont know or keep forgetting. If they were meant to be forest elves only, they'd not be Kaldorei children of the stars, but Children of the Forest or Trees, and their skin would not be purple but green (like some of the Keepers of the Grove) and their eyes won't be silver but also green like Malfurion's is in Legion onwards (signifying the Emerald dream i preusme). The blue, purple and silver hair colours are all reflective of that arcane connection. Green ofc is nature. Which they have an affinity too.

How come trolls are green but not Night elves? well because night elves aren't just forest elves.

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I was certain that the dark ashen color was in reference to dark trolls, the polar opposite of Highborne options. That being said, I love it!

How'd you make that connecton? They made the dark troll skin colour purple to reflect their connecton to the night elves as far as i know. despite definignt he purple hue as due to their connection to the well, but then the Dark trolsl are the ones tha twere by the Well till they got changed into Night elves - perhaps teh skin colour changew as the first- Whiles purple does show up in trolls, most are green and blue. But then trolls are the most varied race anyway.

[Rozz]

How'd you make that connecton? They made the dark troll skin colour purple to reflect their connecton to the night elves as far as i know. despite definignt he purple hue as due to their connection to the well, but then the Dark trolsl are the ones tha twere by the Well till they got changed into Night elves - perhaps teh skin colour changew as the first- Whiles purple does show up in trolls, most are green and blue. But then trolls are the most varied race anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if some trolls were particularly dark and this resulted in some elves maintaining the color. Not all transformations are exact, especially when it comes to character customization options. The first thing I thought of when I saw a non-purple/blue hue was their ancestry.

[ravenmoon]

I wouldn't be surprised if some trolls were particularly dark and this resulted in some elves maintaining the color. Not all transformations are exact, especially when it comes to character customization options. The first thing I thought of when I saw a non-purple/blue hue was their ancestry.

Interesting.

I'd be very curious to see what each of these options was meant to represent.

[Yarathir]

Interesting.

I'd be very curious to see what each of these options was meant to represent.

"dude drow lmao"

[Astranea]

Got one question. Does it count for highborne? Skin tint i mean.

I think Blizzard is a bit free to determine what colors Highborne canonically have because there has never been clear word on what physical features define the Shen'dralar. Perhaps, like Nightborne, those with a large saturation of arcane energy in their bodies take on a darker hue. Azshara could be a one off, since her powers greatly exceeded any others and could have been further enhanced with water magic by her weapon Sharas'dal, Scepter of Tides.

At this point the only explicit info about the looks of the Highborne in comparison to that of the regular Night Elves are the supposed notes from Brann Bronzebeard from World of Warcraft: The Magazine Volume II Issue I (pic from Wowpedia below).

They state:
"Not much 'o difference between the Kaldorei 'n Highborne, physically pastier, maybe. But they consider themselves different enough."

So while this may be always changed by Blizzard, the little info we have at this point would have us point towards lighter skin colors rather than darker.



In fact, this is also supported by the evidence of the Surviving Highborne (mostly Shen'dralar used as mage trainers and reforgers) NPCs in game, which often have white hair (17/21!) and shades of pink and light purple skin (9+7) versus occasional green (2) and water blue (1) hair and skins in pink with blue hue (2), full blue (1) or darker (2). Nothing set in stone of course... but personally, I do see a pattern there. :-)

Lorekeeper Amberwind: pink skin, white hair
Archmage Aranhir Starsinger: pink with blue hue skin, white hair
Azj'Tordin: pink skin, green hair
Arcanist Delaris: pink skin, white hair
Dyrhara: light purple skin, white hair
Mordent Evenshade: pink skin, white hair
Estulan: pink with blue hue skin, white hair
Irriende: pink skin, white hair
Lorekeeper Javon: pink skin, white hair
Lorekeeper Kildrath: saturated pink skin, water blue hair
Lorekeeper Lydros: blueish skin, purple hair
Maelir: light purple skin, white hair
Daros Moonlance: darker purple skin, white hair
Karabrel Moonlance: light purple skin, white hair
Lorekeeper Mykos: pink skin, white hair
Rhyanda: pink skin, white hair
Tarelvir: light purple skin, white hair
Falrin Treeshaper: light purple skin, green hair
Arcanist Valdurian: pink skin, white hair
Aladrel Whitespire: light purple skin, white hair
Erdunor Whitespire: light purple skin, white hair

[shoc]

I have not read this thread, but I'm assuming the human-colored Night Elves are along the lines of what people were after?

[Astranea]

I have not read this thread, but I'm assuming the human-colored Night Elves are along the lines of what people were after?

Different shades of pink skins for Night Elven females have been around since the start, and indeed often used on Highborne NPCs in game.

So aye, the addition of a lighter tone for the males as well is also very welcome to anyone desiring to roll a Highborne, although I'd recommend white hair. :-)

[ravenmoon]

I have not read this thread, but I'm assuming the human-colored Night Elves are along the lines of what people were after?

I'm an authenticity fan tbh.

If highborne are supposed to have differnet shades, like near human, Azshara shade, and deep purple - then that's what I want.

But my biggest hope is that they have a distinctive enough appearance..

That hairstyle on the night elf above.. TOO druidic. bushy at the back.. it's wild (for an elf) so I would expect highborne to have some additional features.

1. Neater and styled hairstyles
2. Some indication of arcane mastery - like glowy/hands feet
3. Some extra features like hair colours that have stars
4. Rich ornamentation
5. Neat beards, designer style
6. Different stance/pose possibly attached to skin colour or face
7. New faces, or at least many of the male faces that have loads of lines to have the same face but without wrinkles.
8. Option for Silver eyes (which is the arcane indication). gold ofc, and black
9. Some less musculature options - don't know if they'll make the shoulders/chest smaller or reduce the definition. Ofc it doesn't hurt to have the more ripped bodies of the Illidari - your elf could also be an exercise freak, but the less musculature option needs to be there.

The pics Astranea and Mace link from the fan art capture the look one imagines of them. Appearance modifications that fit the description of the Highborne from the lore - "the highest caste of the nobilitiy" - from the wealthy night elf empire - these guys must be gorgeous, extravagant, beautiful, excess -it's from them the high elf penchant for beauty comes from. They need to look the part. The super arrogant attitude and addiction has gone (think of Farondis and Estulan , but the regal pose, distinction, love of beauty and perfection must remain, it's one of the things that sets them apart from other night elves.

their model must reflect this

We are being creative here, but a proper highborne look hasn't been done, they literally just use the Night elf model that is based on the druid male and since 6.0 the female has been based on the sentinel/huntress warrior woman /tomboy - she desperately needs the Highborne and Moon Priestess look like Azshara and Tyrande

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Different shades of pink skins for Night Elven females have been around since the start, and indeed often used on Highborne NPCs in game.

But aye, the addition of a lighter tone for the males as well is also very welcome to anyone desiring to roll a Highborne, although I'd recommend white hair. :-)

I fell in love with the Night elves based on what I saw in WC3 and read in the manual and WotA - this is why I am a big fan of both the long vigil druid/priest setting and the pre-sundering civilization highborne/Moonguard/Temple Priest.

I think they painted an incredible picture in their existing lore, and I want the game to reflect this. It was why I was so excited when they did Suramar properly, especially the city, the detail was incredible, and the culture fit the description in WoTA Well of Eternity to a T, but expanded on it, showing other parts. I was also grateful for Azsuna and the faronids, showing us a different side of the H ighborne lesss corrupt, closer to what I would imagine was the original nobility of the caste before the cancer of arrogant hubris and addiction spread through much of the group.


Still there are aspects of them we have yet to see, Highborne that fit the full majesty of the royal-type caste of the Night elves. I am excited for this. For even though I play druid and love it, it is the stark contrast of this.. and that is what I love night elves for. THey have this duality of contrasting ends, it's a theme, that makes them enigmatic and quite refreshing.

it's not melded all together like High elf society or the pre-sundering society where everything mixed, they're all separate, the priests stick to their temples and Elune loves, the highborne are the main ones of the cities (not the only ones) and have their arcane love, the druids stick to the forests, humbply attired and a wilder look, because they love the beauty of the forest and its complexity and richness its fullness they consider more baeautifulthan any building build by elf hands.


I love it. The final one the demon hunters when they did them, they did thems o well, they were ripped, their demonic ttatoos, even some skin tones had near scales, the horns the eyes.. well captured. it is my hopet hey do a similar thing for the Highborrne, because it is a very important part of the night elves, it adds a distinct dimension to them it is the embodiment of the dark elf side of them. and its nice to have a change of scenry in them that's not forest and ruins. But rich.

I want it because its in their lore. And it hadn't been shown properly till 7.0, but since the Nightborne went horde, they haven' shown the Night elf version, the actual original one all the lore talks off properly

This is what @

Alanar

and @

Tharivor

don't seem to be getting about many of us. This is why Nightborne aren't a substitute we would be satisfied with, nevermind being on the other faction and associated to the horde but linked more to the blood elves than their kaldorei root alienates them further, they really are not he original thanks to the change of the Nightwell. Their style is stark/bare wreathed in arcane, which is cool as they are a sub-race, are not the highborne we have described. those are night elves - Kaldorei, the best of the best in terms of arcane mastery, apperances and richness. (not the best in terms of other things)

A Nightborne won't do. Even if they were on the same faction (which I guess would have greatly reduced the desire for a proper display of Highborne), their existence on the alliance won't change or eliminate the night elf mage either or the highbonre - unless the Alilnace Nightborne had the healing effects of the Arcan'dor accelerated and they regained their night elf healthier appearance and ears - at this point they would effectively be Highborne that are from the Nightborne group, and well if their customisation were possible, your toon could be Nightborne highborne or Darnassian Highborne - only you would know based on what group you wanted your character to be.

[Ardenaso]

Got one question.



Does it count for highborne? Skin tint i mean.

RP it as a Dark Ranger who returns to the Alliance ala Death Knight

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Wow even on Highborne Night Elves we've had Hordes cockblocking the Alliance against it. No surprises there.

[Mace]

Wow even on Highborne Night Elves we've had Hordes cockblocking the Alliance against it. No surprises there.

Oh you noticed that too huh.

Your typical cock blocking hordie: is basically saying:

• "Only our elves are supposed to be beautiful, magical and majestic - yours should only be savage, wild and primitive" ..lol
• "We have the arcane magic thing shown first, you have nature, you can't have arcane"
• "We have magical elven cities (they don't mention forest), you can't have it too, otherwise it would be too much of the same thing." [in other words only we can have magical elf stuff], you should not have this -- it's unfair, we're the ones entitled to it. Magical elves is our thing, you can't have it"

Nevermind:

• 1. Night elves had it in their lore, and from day one too, showing it is a part of the race, and the lore squarely puts the night elves as the most prolific and advanced elven group of both arcane and nature, and
• 2. That racial feature doesn't disappear throughout the long vigil as the kaldorei do not evolve into pure nature beasties skin going green and eyes green full of nature power replacing all vestiges of their arcane heritage (now I wonder why huh) ,
• 3. Nor does it vanish because the group we play didn't practice spell casting for 10k years (story tool, hello? surely all that means is that that group is rusty with arcane spell casting - NOT that they've lost their talent or natural makeup - they are the only Elven group unchanged from that great Elf state - especially since we are told their entire period of the Long vigil they're right next to the Well of Eternity, filled with arcane power they just don't use, instead dot their lands with Moonwells bearing waters from that same source -

So ask now,

• Why would blizzard keep that alive too if they are meant to only be forest elves who've supposed to perma lost their arcane capability and can't somehow do civilization. ?
• Why would blizzard bring them out of isolation and start building cities if they're not meant to have night elven cities nevermind give them those in extravagant style in the first place in their pre-sundering era -- ?

I wonder:

• 1. I mean do these people realise if blizzard didn't mean the night elves to have any of that stuff, it would not be in their lore, it would be another race called Star elves- but then because they give star elves a strong nature side too, some peple will start thinking star elves are supposed to be forest elves only and have a go at star elf fans who want their character to match more their Star elf arcane side instead. -
• 2. They're also conveniently ignoring when blizzard keeps showing other Night elven groups that never stopped using the arcane, adn the genetic make up is still the arcane enhanced being from the very beginning.

But no, they think: Night elves have no claim or right to their arcane half, because:

• a) blood elves have it,
• b) or because Night elves banned the practice of the arcane,
• c) or Night elves are now forest elves. and the ones who use it are super tiny infinitesimally smalls (basically so it doesn't actually exist they want to portray),

In other words, you Alliance boys can't have it... nevermind every race in wow has several things, and especially those of the same species type, like Troll, human etc have similar features and strengths across their various different races but often in a different arrangement or variation, which is exactly the case with night elves who have a Night star/moon focused version of the same things the blood elves - with a different arrangement because their history and lifespans are much longer. Yet apparently, only one part is allowed for the night elves, because it's somehow stepping on blood elf toes - yes, we can't see


Remember the guy earlier on that said the fan art looked like high elves? I was like..wtf? Then I realised, Elves looking fancy/rich type of good looking i.e. majestic - that's only supposed to be blood elves. They can't be night elves if they look like that..that's encroaching on horde territory.

/rolleyes

One female elf is the only one that looked like the blood elf model, but somehow all the others were looking like high elves? Cos night elves can't look good and they cerrtainly MUST look totally different from blood elves, so if blood elves look majestic and pretty, Night elves can only look savage and primitive. /s

[ravenmoon]

Oh you noticed that too huh.

Your typical cock blocking hordie: is basically saying:

• "Only our elves are supposed to be beautiful, magical and majestic - yours should only be savage, wild and primitive" ..lol
• "We have the arcane magic thing shown first, you have nature, you can't have arcane"
• "We have magical elven cities (they don't mention forest), you can't have it too, otherwise it would be too much of the same thing." [in other words only we can have magical elf stuff], you should not have this -- it's unfair, we're the ones entitled to it. Magical elves is our thing, you can't have it"

Nevermind:

• 1. Night elves had it in their lore, and from day one too, showing it is a part of the race, and the lore squarely puts the night elves as the most prolific and advanced elven group of both arcane and nature, and
• 2. That racial feature doesn't disappear throughout the long vigil as the kaldorei do not evolve into pure nature beasties skin going green and eyes green full of nature power replacing all vestiges of their arcane heritage (now I wonder why huh) ,
• 3. Nor does it vanish because the group we play didn't practice spell casting for 10k years (story tool, hello? surely all that means is that that group is rusty with arcane spell casting - NOT that they've lost their talent or natural makeup - they are the only Elven group unchanged from that great Elf state - especially since we are told their entire period of the Long vigil they're right next to the Well of Eternity, filled with arcane power they just don't use, instead dot their lands with Moonwells bearing waters from that same source -

So ask now,

• Why would blizzard keep that alive too if they are meant to only be forest elves who've supposed to perma lost their arcane capability and can't somehow do civilization. ?
• Why would blizzard bring them out of isolation and start building cities if they're not meant to have night elven cities nevermind give them those in extravagant style in the first place in their pre-sundering era -- ?

I wonder:

• 1. I mean do these people realise if blizzard didn't mean the night elves to have any of that stuff, it would not be in their lore, it would be another race called Star elves- but then because they give star elves a strong nature side too, some peple will start thinking star elves are supposed to be forest elves only and have a go at star elf fans who want their character to match more their Star elf arcane side instead. -
• 2. They're also conveniently ignoring when blizzard keeps showing other Night elven groups that never stopped using the arcane, adn the genetic make up is still the arcane enhanced being from the very beginning.

But no, they think: Night elves have no claim or right to their arcane half, because:

• a) blood elves have it,
• b) or because Night elves banned the practice of the arcane,
• c) or Night elves are now forest elves. and the ones who use it are super tiny infinitesimally smalls (basically so it doesn't actually exist they want to portray),

In other words, you Alliance boys can't have it... nevermind every race in wow has several things, and especially those of the same species type, like Troll, human etc have similar features and strengths across their various different races but often in a different arrangement or variation, which is exactly the case with night elves who have a Night star/moon focused version of the same things the blood elves - with a different arrangement because their history and lifespans are much longer. Yet apparently, only one part is allowed for the night elves, because it's somehow stepping on blood elf toes - yes, we can't see


Remember the guy earlier on that said the fan art looked like high elves? I was like..wtf? Then I realised, Elves looking fancy/rich type of good looking i.e. majestic - that's only supposed to be blood elves. They can't be night elves if they look like that..that's encroaching on horde territory.

/rolleyes

One female elf is the only one that looked like the blood elf model, but somehow all the others were looking like high elves? Cos night elves can't look good and they cerrtainly MUST look totally different from blood elves, so if blood elves look majestic and pretty, Night elves can only look savage and primitive. /s

Look, I love the druid side of the night elves a lot. but:

1. Night elves as just druids /treehuggers is so boring and totally un-necessary. It's niche, and appeals to minority of peple, which is fine to have, because of its uniqueness and I love the lore, but it's UN-NECESSARY to be the only thing and the only major thing to the night elves
2. Night elves with sentinels + druids - is your forest elf trope. Nothing wrong with forest elves, but again it's over=used cliched, and if you were making forest elves, why call them night elves and state they were a fusion? There is nothing unique about the bog standard forest elf.

People who think this is all night elves should be...that's your opinion, but to me, they need more than this. It's great to have this, but as part of the race, not the whole thing. This is supposed to be a full fledged race, near faction and is touted as the origin of the elves.. in Warcraft lore blizzard expanded their vision

3. Night elves with dark elf high arcane users and civilization as a MAJOR part on equal footing with druids and sentinels - now this is unique. This duality and opposing contrasting themes juxtaposed. We see them totally separated, yet living together - but so distinctive. This is unique, you want more of this vein. Other fantasies don't care to do this. The majestic civilization side is at complete contrast to the rich nature and humble druid - either of these without the other makes the group feel much smaller and far more stereotypical. Only both together is uniqhe

4. Night elves with a heavens-bound celestial star and moon major part to their culture - that is linked through the arcane, to mage orders, priesthood and nature all - now this is interesting, it's also unique, fitting, and gives an element of wonder and mystique, they feel almost otherworldly and highly advanced even though it's not tech but magic - you think to yourself their magic was even reaching the lvels of calling the strs and moon.. wow.

5. The Fel wielding Illidari employing fel and demons is also quite the contrast, but the way its done is not like evil warlocks at all, though they wield fel even better being far more familiar with dmons they also use like locks, eeven being able to turn into them, but the purpose is to destroy the Legion and stop said demons from ever being a threat or destroying /harming their world or their people. Can a person using evil magic be good and noble even? The way this is done is both unique in and of itself and adding this to a group like the night elves with their noble and lawfully good benevolent druids, priests, arcane users - is a different dimension.

As you can see, Priestess, Highborne, Illidari add dimensions literally to the night elf that make the whole race very interesting. This is why I love them.

This is why I applaud blizzard showing more parts of them.

But i'm still upset that they keep touching on them too briefly and trivially. And recently despite being such a rich race, and arguably their most unique adaptation of popular fictional races ever.. that they use them so badly and ignore them. They should be shining their light, because they're one of the best things blizzard did for Warcraft.



This overall adds the

[Mace]

@ravenmoon , @FossilFree, @Ardenaso Some fans actually believe Night elves can't do arcane magic, I've seen the arguments - they do not associate the Night elf with the arcane skill or mastery or capability of the Nightborne though they're essentially the same race.

I have pointed this out when I've noticed it, does blizzard have to show Forsaken mages in the same decked halls of humans ? They're of the same race (or essentially different versions of the same race) and just as capable. What you see a human can do magic wise, know a forsaken is just as capable.

Same with Nightborne and Night elf, you don't necessarily need to see HIghborne like Estulan/Mordant or Farondis/Lothrius in Suramar or a pristine NElf city with fancy magic to know this is what they are capable. Check out what the lore says. Eldre'thalas was pristine up to 1,000 years ago, which means it was fancy like Suramar and Zin'Azshari. (and it wasn't destroyed, it just slowly fell to ruin as their numbers dwindled and their magic power source was able to sustain less and less of the city. 1,000 years is a LONG TIME, so the rate was slow and prob painful for the victims.

The Shen'dralar and Moonguard never stopped studying the arcane either, in fact the Shen'dralar are specifically noted as been fanatical about arcane research, the Nightborne are not highlighted in that regard, meanwhile the Farondis are the heart of the greates magical acadmemy of learning even in their cursed state, they'd also have the greatest repository of lost arcane knowledge should blizzard ever decide to use it for the Night elves.

A couple of fans keep pointing out that Shen'dralar magic is crap because the blood elf exposes this in Azshara zone - Raven and I did some research into this many years ago, and the devs commented on this too. The night elves you fight in Azshara zone are not Shen'dralar Highborne - they are new Night elf Highborne. The Lorekeepers, like Amberwind, and the ones at Talendris point are returned Darnassian Highborne who haven't been using the arcane for 10k years, and have only restarted over the last few weeks (at that point), the night elves are short on man power, and have many new students, The Shen'dralar are not teaching all of them directly, the ones in Azsuna are been handled by the Lorekeepers who are also Highborne, and their new students are raised to the caste too.

I get it, the first impression you get is that is this all the Shen'dralar can do, cos you think it's them, and it doesn't quite add up - when thing s like that happen, you check the lore and pay particular note of what is been shown, and you find out oh, for example these Lore keepers also cast druid nature wrath spells? The Shen'dralar would never do that.. how are the shend'ralar using old magic technology which while doing the job is so easily comprised? either they don't know this about it because they haven't had to fight, - but they've been scrying on the whole world the whole time, they would know - or it's not actually them that's there... which seems far more plausible. Despite sharing the info, I noticed that same poster a few months down the line, was repeating the same garbage, and hadn't even amended their view despite the info. But sadly, using your own brain to reason things out is head canon, and ofc the devs aren't to be believed when they outright confirm it. Only what those fans have made up in their mind is true is what's true, and anyone else that says otherwise, weill, it's just head canon.

As if Night elves arcane essence and natural racial affinity some how changed during the long vigil.. even though they are the only elf group that didn't change, and they were constantly suffused by the second well of eternity all through the long vigil, handling its waters all the time for making moonwells etc.

The Darnassians never became less arcane gifted or naturally talented than they were in the pre-sundering empire, they are simply jus tout of practice, literally and the Shen'dralar are not at all

The difference between Kaldorei and Shal'dorei arcane wielder is ones body was twisted by ingesting arcane substance for food for so many years, the chronic stat.

We get to see the Nightborne in a pristine city, but you can just as well imagine it full of night elves too (like in the cinematic), they built them, most of the Darnassians are from that same city, unchanged, it's like thinking because the forsaken have only been shown in scourge ruined piles that they are somehow less capable of magic than their alive partners. Which isn't the case unless the lore actually states so. (which it doesn't)

[matrix123mko]

[*]"Only our elves are supposed to be beautiful, magical and majestic - yours should only be savage, wild and primitive" ..lol

"Only night elves have rights to druidism. Trolls are supposed to use shamanism and blood magic. Tauren too. Humans should use light and arcane."

[*]"We have the arcane magic thing shown first, you have nature, you can't have arcane"

Arcane is essential for Horde elves. Alliance elves have nature as their core. In no way they can outclass Horde elves at their own thing.

[*]"We have magical elven cities (they don't mention forest), you can't have it too, otherwise it would be too much of the same thing." [in other words only we can have magical elf stuff], you should not have this -- it's unfair, we're the ones entitled to it. Magical elves is our thing, you can't have it"

I wouldn't call these gardens full of twisted trees a forest.

[*]1. Night elves had it in their lore, and from day one too, showing it is a part of the race, and the lore squarely puts the night elves as the most prolific and advanced elven group of both arcane and nature, and

It was a part of their race that was cut off long ago. High elves are obviously more advanced than they, as they created things unimaginable to night elves, like Ban'dinoriel.

[*]2. That racial feature doesn't disappear throughout the long vigil as the kaldorei do not evolve into pure nature beasties skin going green and eyes green full of nature power replacing all vestiges of their arcane heritage (now I wonder why huh) ,

Nature magic has less visible effects on its users, unless they overindulge in it like Malfurion. Also, they still infuse themselves in magic of moonwells, pretending that they aren't addicted to arcane magic.

[*]3. Nor does it vanish because the group we play didn't practice spell casting for 10k years (story tool, hello? surely all that means is that that group is rusty with arcane spell casting

It is not that most if not all mages left them over that 10000 years.

NOT that they've lost their talent or natural makeup - they are the only Elven group unchanged from that great Elf state - especially since we are told their entire period of the Long vigil they're right next to the Well of Eternity, filled with arcane power they just don't use, instead dot their lands with Moonwells bearing waters from that same source -

Their Well of Eternity doesn't work because some idiots planted a huge tree on it. And the fact that night elves didn't evolve doesn't make them good spellcasters. Quite the opposite.

[*]Why would blizzard keep that alive too if they are meant to only be forest elves who've supposed to perma lost their arcane capability and can't somehow do civilization. ?

They love giving races more class options. Every race has priests and monks for some reasons.

[*]Why would blizzard bring them out of isolation and start building cities if they're not meant to have night elven cities nevermind give them those in extravagant style in the first place in their pre-sundering era -- ?

They were brought out of isolation to work for Human Empire. That extravagant architecture belonged to Highborne, who use it nowadays aswell, making Quel'thalas a jewel of the east.

[*]1. I mean do these people realise if blizzard didn't mean the night elves to have any of that stuff, it would not be in their lore, it would be another race called Star elves- but then because they give star elves a strong nature side too, some peple will start thinking star elves are supposed to be forest elves only and have a go at star elf fans who want their character to match more their Star elf arcane side instead. -

Orcs have story about drinking demon blood and defiling the land with powerful Fel magic. However, current orcs have very little of those. Do orc fans ask for more fel in their culture?

[*]2. They're also conveniently ignoring when blizzard keeps showing other Night elven groups that never stopped using the arcane, adn the genetic make up is still the arcane enhanced being from the very beginning.

Keep in mind that orcs have titanic origins, yet their arcane culture is very limited. Genetic make up alone doesn't make your culture arcane. Also, what night elf groups, aside from Shen'dralar practised arcane for 10000 years?

[*]a) blood elves have it,

They do. They have less and less of it, as even the Grand Magister is now blinded by the Light but they still do have it.

[*]b) or because Night elves banned the practice of the arcane,

And executed people who broke that rule.

[*]c) or Night elves are now forest elves. and the ones who use it are super tiny infinitesimally smalls (basically so it doesn't actually exist they want to portray), [*]

Their arcane users are refugees from a group that murdered eachother for 10000 years to control population. They are few, so few that they can be compared to void elves.

In other words, you Alliance boys can't have it... nevermind every race in wow has several things, and especially those of the same species type, like Troll, human etc have similar features and strengths across their various different races but often in a different arrangement or variation

Yet you hate troll and human druids for "stealing" from night elves.

which is exactly the case with night elves who have a Night star/moon focused version of the same things the blood elves

If you are speaking about lunatic theocracy, I agree that Liadrin and Rommath are as dumb as Tyrande and Malfurion.

with a different arrangement because their history and lifespans are much longer

[/B]

Their history is of the same length. This is typical Alliance thing: "Horde doesn't deserve any straw of our great night elf history which is ours. All blood elves appeared from alternate dimension after third war as totally new species with no own culture to serve the Horde decorative girls." Dath'remar must have never existed. I am sure he was born 10000 years after war of the ancients.

Yet apparently, only one part is allowed for the night elves, because it's somehow stepping on blood elf toes - yes, we can't see

Two parts. You also have priests of the moon that you don't want to share. Even Lun'alai are bashed by Alliance.

Remember the guy earlier on that said the fan art looked like high elves? I was like..wtf? Then I realised, Elves looking fancy/rich type of good looking i.e. majestic - that's only supposed to be blood elves. They can't be night elves if they look like that..that's encroaching on horde territory.

Night elves rarely dress like that. This is a privilege available only to inner circle of Sisterhood of Elune. But yes, it could be given to night elves. This one thing is lore friendly.

One female elf is the only one that looked like the blood elf model, but somehow all the others were looking like high elves? Cos night elves can't look good and they cerrtainly MUST look totally different from blood elves, so if blood elves look majestic and pretty, Night elves can only look savage and primitive.

They are a bit bigger and more masculine. This is canon. However, some night elves could look a bit more delicate, likely due to some unknown highborne ancestry and low exposure(like living far from druids, wild gods and ancients if it is possible, given the size of Malfurion's territory; I would say these elves that lived on Azuremyst could be candidates) to druidic magic. Yet then, everyone can look majestic in good clothes, if he is trained how to move in them. History had examples of dressing "savages" in noble clothes for "an experiment". Yet them, I am sure a blood elf can look majestic even in druidic leathers, as it is the matter of pose.

Also, don't accuse me of cockblocking anything. I have nothing against developing arcane side of night elves more. However, I will not allow underestimating arcane culture of Horde elves and trying to undermine it to give Alliance more of it. If night elves get more developments on arcane, blood elves deserve it too, as they never abandoned arcane and it is the essence and core of their culture. So sad that Blizzard nowadays tries to make blood elves "light elves" instead of what they are expected to be by their fans. But going back to night elf topic, I think there is place for arcane in their culture but Tyrande and Malfurion need to lose their power(or lifes) to make it happen, as these two detest arcane magic. Malfurion for night elves is what Thrall is for orcs: ultimate enforcer of nature based culture and weird social reforms.

P.S. I am aware of your(and Ravenmoon's) previous message to me and I am going to response. I just never know when to approach it as it is very long and it would take me hours to read it, analyse, check the lore and respond in understandable way. Be patient.

[Rootsbum]

Highborne looks would be awsome.
I really like male night elfs; but the colours and hip/shoulder-ratio always put me of.
Sometimes it feels like gnomes are the mlst realistic race when it comes to proportions

[Astranea]

Interesting opinion, but I think most people disagree.

It's not quite so.

Most people have to necessarily agree that the Shen'dralar exist and belong with the Night Elves, as this is canon. The issue is that they are also very much afraid that if the returning Highborne got too much special attention then the overall Night Elves flavor might shift from mostly nature-oriented, feral and savage (as explicitly represented and enforced by the figures of Malfurion and Tyrande) to civilized and grandious, which they feel nowadays belongs to the Blood Elves or Nightborne at most.

But that's not really the point, and there is no risk of that happening. The question they should ask themselves is rather:

Could Blizzard add some jewelry, pretty faces and fancy hairstyles to the Night Elves without breaking their Lore?

My personal take on the matter is that since the priesthood uses jewels and we are discussing simple aesthetics, the number of players rolling a more elegant Night Elf won't be a lore issue as long as the story of the Night Elves is being told us in whichever way Blizzard finds most appropriate, and even giving mages any specific customization would very hardly change the overall racial flavor in more dramatic ways than the addition of Fel skins and horns did in Legion for the simple reason that contrary to demon hunter, the mage class is not restricted to the Night Elves. :-)

In fact, while the discussion about who the true masters of the Arcane arts have been/are/should be which some people appear to be maintaining on this thread is obviously related, it is not at all essentially critical to the specific issue of new character customization.

Lore-wise, it is undeniable that the Arcane has been at the core of the Kaldorei civilization in a distant part, as this lead to a series of major events. It is however also undeniable that following these events, the elven population split. Mind you, this did not make each side gave up entirely on every aspects related to the other, but since the divorce was caused by a ban relating SPECIFICALLY to the choice to continue experimenting with magic, it obviously set a very clear main trend for both factions.

So it is also undeniable that despite of being slowly reintroduced as a specific Art by the Shen'dralar, allowing the player to roll a Night Elf mage trainee since Cataclysm, magic has often been treated with suspicion and at the moment is only a minor complement of the Night Elven culture.

But again, when we get back to the main issue of the customization, the question is much simpler:

Seen the canon lore of the Shen'dralar rejoining the Night Elves as mage trainers, could a player be allowed to customize and roleplay a character as a Shen'dralar mage rather than one of their younger trainees, without breaking the Lore?

My take is why not, when Shadowlands will give us the new Exile's Reach starting experience so that the story won't even conflict. :-)

In short, if a Troll player can customize and roleplay a Blood or Dark troll despite of the old Darkspear starting area, a Human can customize and roleplay a Chinese despite of the old Stormwind starting area, and a Dwarf player can customize and roleplay a Wildhammer despite of the old Ironforge starting area, then there is no reason why a Night Elf player should not be able to customize and roleplay a Shen'dralar despite of the old Teldrassil starting area.

Which customization exactly is totally up to Blizzard, although in the original post we had fun listing some we would find feasible or pleasing according to our own taste.

And to those complaining that the lighter skin tone in one of the Fan Art images of the OP does not suit the Night Elves, I shall just remember that pink has been an in-game option for Night Elves females since forever. :-P

[ravenmoon]

"Only night elves have rights to druidism. Trolls are supposed to use shamanism and blood magic. Tauren too. Humans should use light and arcane."

By implications, Nightborne should have druidsm too, and it should be a staple of all elves, as they love nature, and are magical.


Druidsm makes sense as not just a night elf thing, but an al elf thing. The high elves were never recorded as hating nature or its magic, just the state of affaris during th elong vigil of regret and fear that they felt their kin gave ito by not lifting the ban on magic, ending up expelling them for it.

Nightborne are the pre-sundering side of the night elves, whiles their particular portrayl is based on the urban culture of the invasionera, that was heavily arcane focused over everything else, yet againin we see nature magic playing a very visible role in their gardens that are also an indication of nature love. Furthermore, they are literally saved by a druid Valewalker by a true that in effect reflects the duality of the night elves and the main tennet of balance druidsm which is balance between arcane and nature.

All elves should have access to druidism I firmly support and in favour of, and it should be staple alongside mage, priest and hunter, as the magical nature love. I like that in wow nature has its s pecific magic, usually in fantasy it is all wrapped together under the one bracket. And I am quite fine with the Thalassian version being different because of their schism with the Darnassians.

There is however nothing to say that druidism should have remained Night elf exclusive. However also note that night elves were the only race given exclusive things because they were quite unique but only at first, in general a lot of things are shared. Also note that nature was not the only exclusive thing they gave night elves, nor was it the only thing to them or even the majority thing about them.

Arcane is essential for Horde elves. Alliance elves have nature as their core. In no way they can outclass Horde elves at their own thing.

You're proving his point Matrix, noooo, I expected better.

1. Anyway, you may have had some sort of point if the arcane was never a part of the Night elves, or was some new addition (not htat blizzard don't have a right to give races new things, which also invalidates that statement, afterall, blood elves WERE NOT a horde thing to start with, yet were given it, so ou think that if the arcane was a new things to night elves, they shouldn't have been given it but horde should have been?

2. As that was not the case anyway, because the arcane was a part of the Night elves make up from day one. Quite boldly stated in WC3 manual, and greatly expanded on in the WotA trilogy, as a core part of the race, who is mae from the arcane source, and naturally gifted in it first. Their skin purple because of that source, and their eyes glowing silver with the arcane power within - as stated. furthermore, their story only has them banning the practice to prevent the Legion, that's it not for any other reason - addiction did not warrant a ban and penalty on death, threat of world destruction. We all know addiction can be managed, or removed by temporary abstinence.

Their entire story begs to differ. Just because the main thrust of their initial expression is female warrior babes in a forest setting, but their lore having the arcane very much a part of them, really says something else. During the long vigil, they were constantly suffused by the Well of eternity, and took its waters all over th eland in moonwells.

They didn't change from arcane essence night elves to a new elf race that was nature based only, they just went out of practice, and then blizzard shows us, from the beginning of classic, the highborne arcane specialist night elves never died off or disappeared either, they were hiding away doing their magic in their city so focused on it, it had slipped into ruin in yet another tragic night elf state.

3. If elven magic was suppoed to be horde only, don't you think the High elves would have been killed off too? The point of the blood elves was not to say hey, we are giving the horde elven magic, it was to give the horde a pretty race, human looking enough to do magic. The Nightborne are a night elf race, and they were not created to go to the horde either, in fact they weren't going tobe playable, until payers overwhelmingly requested it, and though night elven, blizzard debated on which side to make them playable on, with the horde narrowly winning the vote. Not because "horde elves are supposed to be arcane"

I wouldn't call these gardens full of twisted trees a forest.

I think he is referring to EVERSONG Forest, which is an elven magical forest, with very wood elf like Farstriders and your classic elves and nature fantasy playing a part - Afterall, the high elves are not just one massive city. And their city portion had no gardens which puts the Nightborne as more nature orientated. However most of their land outside was a nature paradise, and they have a massive forest.

You're wrong, again.

It was a part of their race that was cut off long ago. High elves are obviously more advanced than they, as they created things unimaginable to night elves, like Ban'dinoriel.

Oh really, then

• Why are night elves using arcane magic? why do Nightborne exist? why are Moonguard, and Darnassians returning?
• why is the Well of Eternity still a part of their story
• Why aren't night elves now nature forest elves called children of the forest - since elves tend to change rather easily from magic?
• Why did the developers say they created the night elf to be the best of both the dark elves and forest elves, not wanting just your typical dark elf. What makes you think they wanted you typical forest elf instead just coloured purple?

Don't believe?

https://web.archive.org/web/20010205...667651,00.html

• Why are the best magic users in Warcraft history night elven? Queen Azshara, Illidan, and still more keep popping up, like Mordant Evenshade, Estulan, Prince Farondis, Lothrius Moonguard etc.
• Why not write the night elves to have converted the arcane well to a nature well only, why keep it in the story?

Because they are exactly what they intend them to be. WC3 is not the full expression of the Night elves, nor is classic, blizzard keep showing other parts of the race. You read their lore, it's arcane, nature, Elune, fel - in that order.

Everything shows this, their design, their progression, their story, the developers expressing their intent, it's all there, and you mean to tell me you want to still believe it is not supposed to be part of the night elves? You have arcane wielding night elves keep showing up, both pre-sundering and long vigil past eras continue to influence the night elves in their new era , and it's part of them currently, so just because one section is further back in the past it is not Night elves? I guess since they were created way back in the past, that's also not night elven too, that was a differnet race created - they 've changed into trees and morphed into a new type of elf race - but wait they didn't.

Nature magic has less visible effects on its users, unless they overindulge in it like Malfurion. Also, they still infuse themselves in magic of moonwells, pretending that they aren't addicted to arcane magic.

Oh so now they are not the original Night elf any longer, because their changes are invisible. It is the changed elves that like the High elves and Nightborne that changed and somehow sucked all the arcane magic talent, disposition and nature from the kaldorei. Well not only does all the evidence disagree with you, you should listen to what Valtrois and the Nightborne also say - if you're only going to pay attention to the elves blizzard put on the horde (that stick out like a sore thumb)

It is not that most if not all mages left them over that 10000 years.

What does that even mean? What does that even prove?
1. It's not even true, because the only group that someone left someone else, happened in only one of the Night elf groups
2. It was Darth'remar's specific highborne group that left on exile - the lore made that clear, also telling you all the Moonguard, and other Highborne stayed, most of which picked up druidsm during the period of the ban, and picked it up their magecraft when the ban was over.
3. The lore clearly shows the arcane power, ability, disposition, not leaving ANY kaldorei group, even if 1 of those grouped banned the practice, only the practice was banned, their arcane nature and side didn't leave them, nor did their arcane history and capability some how become invalidated because of it.

Their Well of Eternity doesn't work because some idiots planted a huge tree on it. And the fact that night elves didn't evolve doesn't make them good spellcasters. Quite the opposite.

Oh really, completely forgotten why the tree was planted huh. And I guess 3 dragonflights are big idiots.
FYI - the tree there doesn't break the Well of Eternity - I mean seriously, it's entire purpose, as CLEARLY stated was to MASK THE ENERGY SIGNATURE OF THE VAST SOURCE OF ARCANE POWER. Basically hide the well from the Legion and every other magic user so Legion can't find it and return or others can't use it to summon Legion by mistake or intentional leading again to end of world. WHy do you think the Night elves guarded it for 10k years.. that was the whole point of the Long vigil (the long vigil in lore did not happen because All night elves loved living in trees and hated cities and civilization - people who think that are people who don't read or pay attention to the lore), it was also the whole reason for not using the arcane - this is the one of the core parts of their story.

I know you're a Thalassian elf fan and horde fan, but the Night elf lore is there. Please read the full version, not gamepedia's paraphrased version coloured by someone's view. Blizzard wrote a summary themselves in Chronicles, but the full story is in manual and games of WC3 and WoW and their novels.

Base your point of view on what you are given and told, rather than try to fit it into the box you want to force it into, when that is not what its about.

They love giving races more class options. Every race has priests and monks for some reasons.

Yes, many got new things, but some also got things that were part of their race, that doesn't make it any less valid on either point, true to part of their lore. They had an entire book (Wolfheart) showing the re-acceptance of the Highborne - and it was all over the night elf cata zones - please show me one other "races more class options" that has so much invested in it, and follows it up with constant portrayals, and yet then massive expansion showcasing it 6 years later.

And you think it was just an off thing. "Hey lets waste nearly half of the night elf development on something we actually don't really mean to show." -Come on man, I expected better.

They were brought out of isolation to work for Human Empire. That extravagant architecture belonged to Highborne, who use it nowadays aswell, making Quel'thalas a jewel of the east.

So basically any reason to prove your point. Highborne are Night elves, they're not blood elves. Night elves! Night elves, Highborne and others built those cities. WotA states quite clearly it was built by a combination of arcnae magic wielded by the highborne and nature magic. The lore stating the cities AND forests in the pre-sundering era were extravagant and sculpted"

The duality is inserted in the race during both it's heavy arcane period and its heavy nature period - and I thought how was rather clever. They showed two extremes of the same race, and yet within each, you have the other part still there. [FyI, the Well of Eternity, Moonwells is the arcane in the Long vigil, who's entire mandate was centred around protecting arcane source still playing a major role, in a very different way. And that's just one group of night elves, the other 4 groups still continue using the arcane.[Shen'dralar, Nightborne, Moonguard and Farondis - all of which were large communtieis and were not killed off (except Farondis, but they are still around despite being dead), they all received major losses, but so did the Darnassians, does having fewer numbers left make them not night elves any longer, I guess the Illidari, daranssians, Shen'dralar and Moonguard, aren't night elves because they're few in number now - I geuss everyone that has few numbers left isn't their race anymore, or their function doesn't matter cos they are few.]

Orcs have story about drinking demon blood and defiling the land with powerful Fel magic. However, current orcs have very little of those. Do orc fans ask for more fel in their culture?

Tell that to Orc warlocks - and your analogy is more akin to the Long vigil, fel magic was not in the origin of the or c race, arcane magic is in the night elf race. The long vigil, like the fel magic infestation, is a period that is not life as normal but brought about by a world changing event with a very specific goal in mind. Your orc analogy works for the long vigil era of the Darnassian group. And it doesn't mean fel magic now is not part of orc history. Warlocks are still a part of the orcs, were underground for a short period, and are normalised. Every story has different bits to it.

You don't ignore one bit because you don't like it, or want to fix it in your head to prove your theory for your fave race. It's in their story its part of their race . Both past and present, form who we are today. Night elves today are the arcane and nature dual race the devs intended them to be, and all their 10k year Long vigil, and pre-sundering eras were given as part of the race at their introduction, with WC3 ending the long vigil. Thenight elves in wow have been in a new post-Long vigil era, both the pre-sundering arcane heavy era, and the Long vigil nature heavy era, is a thing of the past to the Darnassians now.

And they are shown with arcane, nature, fel and divine magics being wielded by highborne, druids, Illidari and Preistesses - all are part of the race. Regardless of size. The genocide didn't make them extinct, so why should having low numbers make any of their attributes not valid.

Keep in mind that orcs have titanic origins, yet their arcane culture is very limited. Genetic make up alone doesn't make your culture arcane. Also, what night elf groups, aside from Shen'dralar practised arcane for 10000 years?

Orcs don't have the arcane woven into their story , part of their make up, part of their civilization and lives, the main focus of their abstinence era, and still playing a large role. Neither were orcs stated expressly by the developers to have been intended to be arcane and nature dual race.

Every race has its own set up and story. We are not just taking one bit and casting away the one we don't like. Not one night elf pro poster here has ever once denied that nature is a part of the night elves, no matter how much they may like the arcane or fel demon hunting. Yet we see horde fan posters all to happy to tell night elf fans the arcane is not part of your race having zero evidence to support this and constantly been shown otherwise.

Who's not factoring the actual story and lore?

They do. They have less and less of it, as even the Grand Magister is now blinded by the Light but they still do have it.

Shown less doesn't mean it is less. I think this is where people are erring, you are too visual based, and repeat play content to much it makes you think that things are that are not. WoW can only show you portions based on what story or aspect the devs are displaying.

However the lore tells you the picture, and the info is also in the story you play. The blood elves don't have less magic because they have more light been shown. THeLight part is been shown more, WC2 high elves were famous for being priests and mages. TBC started with an overly heavy arcane part, but there was always more to the race, and as they show more you see other aspects that are also core. You forget the Farstriders and forest love is also a major part too, but because they ain't showing many blood elves doing that currently you think it's not a part of them?

See how mistakes and wrong assertions are being made? and why.

And executed people who broke that rule.

I recall they were mostly exiled. They couldn't even kill the Satyrs they caught (knowing who they were, the druids instead putting them to sleep (Val'Sharah questline), they certainly weren't killing elves even though the ban was serious World ending serious

Their arcane users are refugees from a group that murdered eachother for 10000 years to control population. They are few, so few that they can be compared to void elves.

1. Night elves are now refuges, that makes them invalid I guess
2. The Shen'dralar, only 1 of the arcane using Night elf groups being "few" literally doesn't change any of what I've said. If few meant the night elven race had no rights to the arcane practice or lost arcane capability, then you are confusing with extinction and that would mean every other group that is few, is irrelevant because their numbers are few. let's start with the blood elves shall we, the move on to high elves, then void elves, hen Illidari, what about Gnomes who lost most of their population? Or Tauren who were hunted to the brink of extinction, or Forsaken who were a handful of scourge Sylvanas managed to break free of Arthas' control.

Few? How much is few. The Kaldorei Darnassians were genocide recently, meaning there are very few druids, sentinels, priestesses or any night elf for that matter, I guess because they are few they aren't really druids, sentinels, priestesses ay longer and don't have a claim to such.

I do recall the "few" Shen'dralar been shown and written to have recruited a lot of night elves, and many former Highborne (and I would presume Moonguard amongst them) also returned to the caste - I guess we should ignore that information too, and continue to think of them not only as few, but because they are few they are irrelevant and actually mean night elves don't do arcane nor civilization - because muh, only horde elves can.

Mace was spot on.

Yet you hate troll and human druids for "stealing" from night elves.

I don't think that statement denotes hate? Aren't you the one that stated trolls shouldn't be druids above? Should I or anyone else for that matter assume that your statement means you hate troll druids? Whenever I have brought the topic up, I have insisted that trolls should have been given an alternative or their version look very different. I am sure Mace and others have agreed, even though some have not.

Secondly, it's not the same thing, trolls never had druidism, they were given it very recently, Night elves always had the arcane and created the mage class, they are the ones that started this practice and the lore writes them to have gone the furthest in it and counts their race members as the best at it amongst the humanoid races. I didn't write the lore matrix, I'm really only joining the chorus of those actually pointing it out. This is what they put out.

They didn't want night elves a full on forest elf race, nor did they want them a full on dark elf race, they gave them both, and created 2 extreme era states for them where they max out expertise in both, but always had both as a part of them. This is their intention. Now they can create a pure forest race. The Night Fae can be, You also have the Children of Cenarius, they are pure forest. It's the same with savage race. Those who expect night elves to be savage, when they're not, like every race they can have parts that have a savagery, but as has been said many a time, when you want to do savage, you don't call the race elf. And blizzard didn't, the savage race are worgen, and to a lesser extent some of the horde races have a much higher degree of savagery in them. You really don't see night elves in Warcraft behaving like savages, or exclusively as forest elves either.

If you are speaking about lunatic theocracy, I agree that Liadrin and Rommath are as dumb as Tyrande and Malfurion.]

Their history is of the same length. This is typical Alliance thing: "Horde doesn't deserve any straw of our great night elf history which is ours. All blood elves appeared from alternate dimension after third war as totally new species with no own culture to serve the Horde decorative girls." Dath'remar must have never existed. I am sure he was born 10000 years after war of the ancients.

Somehow I doubt that was the intention of what was been said. I believe it is the horde fans that feel alliance night elf fans don't have a right to their own night elf lore. I for one, very much support the blood elves having more of night elf stuff, I love showing connection, and they are very much connected.

I have also cheered and supported horde elves getting druids, blood elves and ofc Nightborne who I have felt should do. I actually really like how they go about things in Warcraft for racial set up (though they could do a lot more to show it - I hate the neglect). I also believe Mace is fairly similar, he was a huge orc fan, and he plays both factions, I also do. Not seen him have a go at horde elves for having part of night elf history. They do, they are from night elves.

The point here is fans who think Night elves don't have a part of night elf history. Keep posting that night elves shouldn't be using arcane magic, shouldn't have cities or civilization, and often enough, only because blood elves have that - Mace is right, I've seen it too, as if only their elven groups are entitled to. That has never been my gripe.

I think you would be very hard pressed to find any alliance fan or player that says Blood elves shouldn't have forests or magic that affects nature because night elves have it. I don't think blizzard thinks like that either. Both being elves, they have similar things, Blood elves come from night elves, what they tend to do is give the night elf stuff a different expression. In this case their arcane is more intense, and its night star and moon based, their nature is more intense, huge ancient trees etc. but thinks like the Emerald dream, Arcane magic, Fel demon hunting, they are not meant exclusively for the Night elves.

The Night elves are an ancient and major race. Unlike the high elves, they were actually created to be a full race (high elves in the form of blood elves only become that in TBC), therefore Night elves are given as the origin of many elven things, their story and great age also demands that their arcane, nature of fel magic isn't going to be weak. The things they do, because they are elves, and have lived a long time, they have done to a very high level.

It really is just part of their story. People who hate the alliance may hate this, but they shouldn't every race has a story. Some have more things to them than others, some of different things. They didn't go take a cloth and cut it into perfect even pieces, and say they all have to have exactly the same amount, the same things etc.. life doesn't work like that, and it would be very disingenuous if they were creating a world and made it like that. (Reminds me of how the communists love to whitewash everything.)

Two parts. You also have priests of the moon that you don't want to share. Even Lun'alai are bashed by Alliance.

Thankfully blizzard disagrees.

Night elves rarely dress like that. This is a privilege available only to inner circle of Sisterhood of Elune. But yes, it could be given to night elves. This one thing is lore friendly.

I think the whole point of a roleplaying game is you can play your character how you olike However I think you keep thinking of druids when you think of night elves, and this is why night elves in any other role seems odd. Demon hunters don't dress like druids or priests or mages. Highborne won't dress like druids.

Night elves don't all dress exactly the same. I mean, Matrix, should I really have to point these things out to you? c'mon bud, I expect better.

They are a bit bigger and more masculine. This is canon.

More masculine? canon? Where? Bigger yes, but that is just taller. Never heard about more masculine. I guess the hunter/warrior types appear more masculine, but I always thought they were babes that could wield weapons as good as any man, but were women not men. They were not humans either, so I never felt they needed to be masculine to be able to do those things. But sure, I can see why this fits.

However, some night elves could look a bit more delicate, likely due to some unknown highborne ancestry and low exposure(like living far from druids, wild gods and ancients if it is possible, given the size of Malfurion's territory; I would say these elves that lived on Azuremyst could be candidates) to druidic magic. Yet then, everyone can look majestic in good clothes, if he is trained how to move in them. History had examples of dressing "savages" in noble clothes for "an experiment". Yet them, I am sure a blood elf can look majestic even in druidic leathers, as it is the matter of pose.

Unknown Highborne ancestry? Erm, there are living Highborne, that's not unknown, there are also temple priests, and civilians, - but I agree with you that some could look a bit more delicate, and I would say should. The classic model had them all delicate, She was based on the female Priestess. The 6.0 model rework based her on the female sentinel /hunter instead.

My hope for the customisation is that this choice will be in the players hands, so you would be able to have less defined version, the existing version and the demon hunter ripped version.

Also, don't accuse me of cockblocking anything. I have nothing against developing arcane side of night elves more. However, I will not allow underestimating arcane culture of Horde elves and trying to undermine it to give Alliance more of it. If night elves get more developments on arcane, blood elves deserve it too, as they never abandoned arcane and it is the essence and core of their culture. So sad that Blizzard nowadays tries to make blood elves "light elves" instead of what they are expected to be by their fans. But going back to night elf topic, I think there is place for arcane in their culture but Tyrande and Malfurion need to lose their power(or lifes) to make it happen, as these two detest arcane magic. Malfurion for night elves is what Thrall is for orcs: ultimate enforcer of nature based culture and weird social reforms.

Was he referring directly to you? I didn't get the impression that the arcane culture of horde elves was the subject of the discussion nor was it being diminished.

But Matrix haha, I do remember you insisting in some of my earlier pieces and observed in other posts you always stick up for the horde elf so that they aren't forgotten with developments. I like that, this is what fans should do.

what's really odd is when some fans come into a discussion and start mentioning other races the discussion si not about, accusing the fans of the topic for loving elves and that other races need attention, not just elves. You just wonder and think.. "why don't you go make your own topic about it and those that want other things for those races, can happily chime in with their contributions, instead of coming into elf topics and having a go at them for loving elves and wanting to improve elves. [same also goes for night elf topics in particular)

P.S. I am aware of your(and Ravenmoon's) previous message to me and I am going to response. I just never know when to approach it as it is very long and it would take me hours to read it, analyse, check the lore and respond in understandable way. Be patient.

It's okay dude, It's all part of discussion, some of the responses are so long, but they require a full response, and sometimes that takes a lot of time.

[matrix123mko]

By implications, Nightborne should have druidsm too, and it should be a staple of all elves, as they love nature, and are magical.

I would not be too sure about that love to nature. What nightborne do is full GMO.

Druidsm makes sense as not just a night elf thing, but an al elf thing. The high elves were never recorded as hating nature or its magic, just the state of affaris during th elong vigil of regret and fear that they felt their kin gave ito by not lifting the ban on magic, ending up expelling them for it.

For sure, high elves love the nature. They were pretty upset when orcs started burning trees in Quel'thalas. They also have some magical devices that are connected to moon.

Nightborne are the pre-sundering side of the night elves, whiles their particular portrayl is based on the urban culture of the invasionera, that was heavily arcane focused over everything else, yet againin we see nature magic playing a very visible role in their gardens that are also an indication of nature love.

It is not nature magic. It is pure arcane. This is why they were so surprised by power of Farodin and reveal of the story of first elven magi. Nature was for them something strange and interesting when they discovered it.

Furthermore, they are literally saved by a druid Valewalker by a true that in effect reflects the duality of the night elves and the main tennet of balance druidsm which is balance between arcane and nature.

This opens interesting opportunities for the future. Arcane apparently is more powerful combined by other cosmic forces.

All elves should have access to druidism I firmly support and in favour of, and it should be staple alongside mage, priest and hunter, as the magical nature love. I like that in wow nature has its s pecific magic, usually in fantasy it is all wrapped together under the one bracket. And I am quite fine with the Thalassian version being different because of their schism with the Darnassians.

Of course. It would be great if nightborne and blood elves got more sophisticated version of druidism. Even better if Blizzard added unique graphics but I wouldn't expect that, as Kul Tirans and trolls got only new animal forms.

There is however nothing to say that druidism should have remained Night elf exclusive. However also note that night elves were the only race given exclusive things because they were quite unique but only at first, in general a lot of things are shared. Also note that nature was not the only exclusive thing they gave night elves, nor was it the only thing to them or even the majority thing about them.

It is the most important part of night elf identity. They have sentinels and civilians too but all three groups were very important. In Warcraft 3, their buildings are treants.

1. Anyway, you may have had some sort of point if the arcane was never a part of the Night elves, or was some new addition (not htat blizzard don't have a right to give races new things, which also invalidates that statement, afterall, blood elves WERE NOT a horde thing to start with, yet were given it, so ou think that if the arcane was a new things to night elves, they shouldn't have been given it but horde should have been?

Blood elves in Horde are a political subfaction, something that can be added by one simple pact. Arcane culture is something that has to be developed over decades. For night elves, arcane magic is a new addition, as they neglected arcane for longer than they cultivated it. I am not sure if any night elf mage lives by the time of third war. Shen'dralar cannot be counted here, as they are completely different culture group. It would be like saying that blood elves are important for Horde culture, while we should argue whether something such short-lived like Horde does have a culture.

2. As that was not the case anyway, because the arcane was a part of the Night elves make up from day one. Quite boldly stated in WC3 manual, and greatly expanded on in the WotA trilogy, as a core part of the race, who is mae from the arcane source, and naturally gifted in it first.

I agree it is natural but it is not important for their culture, which

Their skin purple because of that source, and their eyes glowing silver with the arcane power within - as stated.

To be specific, their purple skin was inherited from dark trolls.

furthermore, their story only has them banning the practice to prevent the Legion, that's it not for any other reason - addiction did not warrant a ban and penalty on death, threat of world destruction. We all know addiction can be managed, or removed by temporary abstinence.

This shows that they didn't treat arcane magic as seriously as highborne. Is it really a core of a society, if it can live without it? Draenei would never abandon the Light.

Their entire story begs to differ. Just because the main thrust of their initial expression is female warrior babes in a forest setting, but their lore having the arcane very much a part of them, really says something else. During the long vigil, they were constantly suffused by the Well of eternity, and took its waters all over th eland in moonwells.

The Well of Eternity was completely disabled by Nordrassil. The moonwells, however worked still but they weren't used for arcane magic. The conclusion is that night elves needed arcane essence for their survival, like rest of the elves but they never bothered to understand it and master it.

They didn't change from arcane essence night elves to a new elf race that was nature based only, they just went out of practice

Of course. They were still absorbing arcane essence by their moonwells. They regressed to first dark trolls, beings that consumed magic while practising only druidism.

and then blizzard shows us, from the beginning of classic, the highborne arcane specialist night elves never died off or disappeared either, they were hiding away doing their magic in their city so focused on it, it had slipped into ruin in yet another tragic night elf state.

They were unlucky to not have moonwells. Quite unfair that greater power belongs to ones who don't know how to use it, while the rest starve.

3. If elven magic was suppoed to be horde only, don't you think the High elves would have been killed off too?

Honestly, I would like them to die out. I am not a fan of these traitors.

The point of the blood elves was not to say hey, we are giving the horde elven magic, it was to give the horde a pretty race

It was also a nice move from lore perspective, as Forsaken got some friends.

human looking enough to do magic.

They had humans already.

The Nightborne are a night elf race, and they were not created to go to the horde either, in fact they weren't going tobe playable, until payers overwhelmingly requested it, and though night elven, blizzard debated on which side to make them playable on, with the horde narrowly winning the vote.

Could you give me a source? I am pretty sure you made it up.

Not because "horde elves are supposed to be arcane"

Of course they are. Other elves would be unable to befriend blood elves.

I think he is referring to EVERSONG Forest, which is an elven magical forest, with very wood elf like Farstriders and your classic elves and nature fantasy playing a part - Afterall, the high elves are not just one massive city. And their city portion had no gardens which puts the Nightborne as more nature orientated. However most of their land outside was a nature paradise, and they have a massive forest.

This is a huge garden. Everything is artificial: seasons, shape of trees, colour of leaves, fauna, treants that cut the grass, lantherns. It would not be called a forest by a night elf, as the nature was altered too much. How these treants were made is a mystery, however.

But I agree about Farstriders, these are pretty nature oriented. However, they also dabble in arcane, as evidenced by spells they use in WoW. Lor'themar and Vereesa are the prime examples.

[*]Why are night elves using arcane magic? why do Nightborne exist? why are Moonguard, and Darnassians returning?

As I said multiple times, nightborne and Moonguard don't represent night elf culture. Or they do, depending on nomenclature. However, they are not the night elves that are playable in Alliance, just like playable trolls don't represent Hakkari culture of Gurubashi Empire. Similarily, many ogre tribes are completely different from Gorian Empire. To be honest, Gorian Empire is very similar to Kaldorei Empire: completely obliterated to the point of many descendants living in different culture.

[*]why is the Well of Eternity still a part of their story

Because they don't want anyone to put it to better use.

[*]Why aren't night elves now nature forest elves called children of the forest - since elves tend to change rather easily from magic?

Because stars are also important to druidism and cult of Elune. Similarly, we have jungle trolls that live on islands instead of jungle.

[*]Why did the developers say they created the night elf to be the best of both the dark elves and forest elves, not wanting just your typical dark elf. What makes you think they wanted you typical forest elf instead just coloured purple?

From dark elves they have purple skin, sexualised clothing, love of things sharp and poisoned and preference of stealth based fight styles. They wanted purple forest elves because they made purple forest elves.

[*]Why are the best magic users in Warcraft history night elven? Queen Azshara, Illidan, and still more keep popping up, like Mordant Evenshade, Estulan, Prince Farondis, Lothrius Moonguard etc.

Azshara and Illidan have specific opinions on night elves. They don't identify themselves with Malfurion, even though Illidan sees him in every mirror he looks at. Farondis happened to die before creation of modern Kaldorei society. Mordent is Shen'dralar, which is another group.

[*]Why not write the night elves to have converted the arcane well to a nature well only, why keep it in the story?

They put a giant tree on it so it exactly happened. It used to empower their druidic powers by blessing of Ysera before Archimonde burned it.

Because they are exactly what they intend them to be. WC3 is not the full expression of the Night elves, nor is classic, blizzard keep showing other parts of the race. You read their lore, it's arcane, nature, Elune, fel - in that order.

Different order. Arcane appeared after nature and Elune and later became more prominent. Then, it fell from grace.

Everything shows this, their design, their progression, their story, the developers expressing their intent, it's all there, and you mean to tell me you want to still believe it is not supposed to be part of the night elves? You have arcane wielding night elves keep showing up, both pre-sundering and long vigil past eras continue to influence the night elves in their new era , and it's part of them currently, so just because one section is further back in the past it is not Night elves? I guess since they were created way back in the past, that's also not night elven too, that was a differnet race created - they 've changed into trees and morphed into a new type of elf race - but wait they didn't.

Culturally they morphed into trees and new race. Only after Cataclysm they are slowly getting influenced by their past but that is still not their culture. For the same reason, appearance of a few ogre magi doesn't suddenly bring Goria back.

Oh so now they are not the original Night elf any longer, because their changes are invisible.

Original night elf culture leads to further mutations. If night elves didn't mutate, it means they abandoned arcane ways. If there was a warlock race that for some reasons wouldn't develop red skin and spikes over 10000 years, it would mean that they are not real warlocks. One could ask why didn't moonguard and Shen'dralar evolve but they are shown to have much higher frequency of having white hair, which may suggest that they should(budget is budget) look differently aswell. Look at highborne in Azshara short story and you will see. Even some time ago someone complained about statues on Broken Isles looking like high elves. This suggests that highborne had different build from night elves.

It is the changed elves that like the High elves and Nightborne that changed and somehow sucked all the arcane magic talent, disposition and nature from the kaldorei. Well not only does all the evidence disagree with you, you should listen to what Valtrois and the Nightborne also say - if you're only going to pay attention to the elves blizzard put on the horde (that stick out like a sore thumb)

They are surely talented. However, blood elves and nightborne are more talented due to further mutations. But of course, a night elf sorcerer would likely mutate himself during 10000 years of arcane use.

What does that even mean? What does that even prove?
1. It's not even true, because the only group that someone left someone else, happened in only one of the Night elf groups

The one group we are talking about, to be specific.

2. It was Darth'remar's specific highborne group that left on exile - the lore made that clear, also telling you all the Moonguard, and other Highborne stayed, most of which picked up druidsm during the period of the ban, and picked it up their magecraft when the ban was over.

What other highborne? It is stated only that highborne under Dath'remar left, suggesting that all of them left. Moonguard was split into two groups, one that stayed near Suramar and remained a secret for 10000 years and second group that became druids weren't said to have members that returned to arcane after Cataclysm.

3. The lore clearly shows the arcane power, ability, disposition, not leaving ANY kaldorei group, even if 1 of those grouped banned the practice, only the practice was banned, their arcane nature and side didn't leave them, nor did their arcane history and capability some how become invalidated because of it.

Arcane magic is also natural to orcs. This is however underexplored.

Oh really, completely forgotten why the tree was planted huh. And I guess 3 dragonflights are big idiots.

They are. All other elven groups managed to hide themselves from Legion in less expensive way.

the tree there doesn't break the Well of Eternity

It does. Highborne rioted because they couldn't access arcane power of Well of Eternity, which was blocked by a tree.

I mean seriously, it's entire purpose, as CLEARLY stated was to MASK THE ENERGY SIGNATURE OF THE VAST SOURCE OF ARCANE POWER. Basically hide the well from the Legion and every other magic user so Legion can't find it and return or others can't use it to summon Legion by mistake or intentional leading again to end of world. WHy do you think the Night elves guarded it for 10k years.. that was the whole point of the Long vigil (the long vigil in lore did not happen because All night elves loved living in trees and hated cities and civilization - people who think that are people who don't read or pay attention to the lore), it was also the whole reason for not using the arcane - this is the one of the core parts of their story.

As I said idiots. It was not that hard to mask the use of arcane in different ways.

I know you're a Thalassian elf fan and horde fan, but the Night elf lore is there. Please read the full version, not gamepedia's paraphrased version coloured by someone's view. Blizzard wrote a summary themselves in Chronicles, but the full story is in manual and games of WC3 and WoW and their novels.

Base your point of view on what you are given and told, rather than try to fit it into the box you want to force it into, when that is not what its about.

I have read the Chronicles, don't worry.

Yes, many got new things, but some also got things that were part of their race, that doesn't make it any less valid on either point, true to part of their lore. They had an entire book (Wolfheart) showing the re-acceptance of the Highborne - and it was all over the night elf cata zones - please show me one other "races more class options" that has so much invested in it, and follows it up with constant portrayals, and yet then massive expansion showcasing it 6 years later.

Simple, tauren Sunwalkers. They got some short stories, some questlines and it was forshadowed in expansion before.

So basically any reason to prove your point. Highborne are Night elves, they're not blood elves.

All blood elves are highborne. Only some night elves are highborne.

Night elves! Night elves, Highborne and others built those cities. WotA states quite clearly it was built by a combination of arcnae magic wielded by the highborne and nature magic.

Retconned in Chronicles and artifact stories to be built by Azshara and her arcane magic.

The lore stating the cities AND forests in the pre-sundering era were extravagant and sculpted"

Malfurion would not approve of sculpring forests.

The duality is inserted in the race during both it's heavy arcane period and its heavy nature period - and I thought how was rather clever. They showed two extremes of the same race, and yet within each, you have the other part still there. [FyI, the Well of Eternity, Moonwells is the arcane in the Long vigil, who's entire mandate was centred around protecting arcane source still playing a major role, in a very different way. And that's just one group of night elves, the other 4 groups still continue using the arcane.[Shen'dralar, Nightborne, Moonguard and Farondis - all of which were large communtieis and were not killed off (except Farondis, but they are still around despite being dead), they all received major losses, but so did the Darnassians, does having fewer numbers left make them not night elves any longer, I guess the Illidari, daranssians, Shen'dralar and Moonguard, aren't night elves because they're few in number now - I geuss everyone that has few numbers left isn't their race anymore, or their function doesn't matter cos they are few.]

As I said multiple times, Darnassian night elves are not Illidari or Shen'dralar. It is like saying that orc culture, the one of Thrall's orcs, is fel one because of Shadow Council remmants that live in caves.

Tell that to Orc warlocks - and your analogy is more akin to the Long vigil, fel magic was not in the origin of the or c race, arcane magic is in the night elf race.

It is a bit. Fel mutated orcs a lot. However, Grommash changed them again.

The long vigil, like the fel magic infestation, is a period that is not life as normal but brought about by a world changing event with a very specific goal in mind. Your orc analogy works for the long vigil era of the Darnassian group. And it doesn't mean fel magic now is not part of orc history. Warlocks are still a part of the orcs, were underground for a short period, and are normalised. Every story has different bits to it.

Warlocks are a disliked minority that was persecuted by warchiefs twice. They are a part of orc culture in the same matter as void users of blood elf culture.

You don't ignore one bit because you don't like it, or want to fix it in your head to prove your theory for your fave race. It's in their story its part of their race . Both past and present, form who we are today. Night elves today are the arcane and nature dual race the devs intended them to be, and all their 10k year Long vigil, and pre-sundering eras were given as part of the race at their introduction, with WC3 ending the long vigil. Thenight elves in wow have been in a new post-Long vigil era, both the pre-sundering arcane heavy era, and the Long vigil nature heavy era, is a thing of the past to the Darnassians now.

Yet it takes a lot to change a culture. Their culture is not arcane yet. They have to work for it first.

Orcs don't have the arcane woven into their story , part of their make up, part of their civilization and lives, the main focus of their abstinence era, and still playing a large role.

But they are more arcane than night elves. They are born from arcane.

Neither were orcs stated expressly by the developers to have been intended to be arcane and nature dual race.

Nor were the night elves.

Every race has its own set up and story. We are not just taking one bit and casting away the one we don't like. Not one night elf pro poster here has ever once denied that nature is a part of the night elves, no matter how much they may like the arcane or fel demon hunting. Yet we see horde fan posters all to happy to tell night elf fans the arcane is not part of your race having zero evidence to support this and constantly been shown otherwise.

I use arguments to dissolve all proof of arcane culture of night elves.

Who's not factoring the actual story and lore?

Not me.

Shown less doesn't mean it is less. I think this is where people are erring, you are too visual based, and repeat play content to much it makes you think that things are that are not. WoW can only show you portions based on what story or aspect the devs are displaying.

Of course. However, I would like the game to stick to lore more and not try to change my favourite race into something else.

However the lore tells you the picture, and the info is also in the story you play. The blood elves don't have less magic because they have more light been shown. THeLight part is been shown more, WC2 high elves were famous for being priests and mages.

They have less magic. It is explicitly shown how Grand Magister himself decides to abandon research because of the Sunwell. Of course, he may be worried about risking arcane source of Sunwell but real mage would go research safer methods of new magic. Dar'khan didn't stop because of fear of destroying entire planet, he quickly devised a plan to use arcane safely. Also, priests were trained in Arcane Sanctum and used arcane(look at visuals) spells too. In Warcraft 3 beta, they were called mage-priests.

TBC started with an overly heavy arcane part, but there was always more to the race, and as they show more you see other aspects that are also core.

Light was not core. It came later with humans and even then, it didn't bear much of importance aside from there being a high priest in Convocation of Silvermoon.

You forget the Farstriders and forest love is also a major part too, but because they ain't showing many blood elves doing that currently you think it's not a part of them?

These Farstriders are also connected to arcane, as evidenced by Vereesa and others. Their love to forest is weird, as they particularly love their forest, which has unnatural shape.

I recall they were mostly exiled. They couldn't even kill the Satyrs they caught (knowing who they were, the druids instead putting them to sleep (Val'Sharah questline), they certainly weren't killing elves even though the ban was serious World ending serious

It was the penalty by night elf law. Who knows how seriously they treated it? Maybe they didn't.

1. Night elves are now refuges, that makes them invalid I guess

Refugees from a huge group is something different than refugees from a small group. Compare population of Stormwind(refugees from Stormwind+refugees from Lordaeron and Dalaran) to population of void elves, who are small group of blood elves who were only 10% of original population of Quel'thalas.

2. The Shen'dralar, only 1 of the arcane using Night elf groups being "few" literally doesn't change any of what I've said. If few meant the night elven race had no rights to the arcane practice or lost arcane capability, then you are confusing with extinction and that would mean every other group that is few, is irrelevant because their numbers are few. let's start with the blood elves shall we, the move on to high elves, then void elves, hen Illidari, what about Gnomes who lost most of their population? Or Tauren who were hunted to the brink of extinction, or Forsaken who were a handful of scourge Sylvanas managed to break free of Arthas' control.

Tauren are a small group but it is sufficient size when we are defining tauren culture by them because few/few=100%. If you are describing night elf culture, Shen'dralar are insignificant, as few/many is still few. I could risk to say that they are below 5% of night elves. However, if you want to talk about Shen'dralar culture, that small group is around 100% of Shen'dralar.

Few? How much is few. The Kaldorei Darnassians were genocide recently, meaning there are very few druids, sentinels, priestesses or any night elf for that matter, I guess because they are few they aren't really druids, sentinels, priestesses ay longer and don't have a claim to such.

populacy of Teldrassil after War of Thorns=percentage killed by Sylvanas*(Shen'dralar+Darnassians) Shen'dralar*percentage killed by Sylvanas/(percentage killed by Sylvanas*Darnassians)=Shen'dralar/Darnassians

Still low percentage.

I do recall the "few" Shen'dralar been shown and written to have recruited a lot of night elves, and many former Highborne (and I would presume Moonguard amongst them) also returned to the caste - I guess we should ignore that information too, and continue to think of them not only as few, but because they are few they are irrelevant and actually mean night elves don't do arcane nor civilization - because muh, only horde elves can.

Who are these former Highborne? I cannot find any information about their presumed existence.

I don't think that statement denotes hate? Aren't you the one that stated trolls shouldn't be druids above? Should I or anyone else for that matter assume that your statement means you hate troll druids? Whenever I have brought the topic up, I have insisted that trolls should have been given an alternative or their version look very different. I am sure Mace and others have agreed, even though some have not.

No. That was a mockery of these posters that think that druidism should be night elf exclusive. There are some.

Secondly, it's not the same thing, trolls never had druidism, they were given it very recently,

Darkspear yes, trolls not. Other troll tribes, like Amani or Zandalari had that before night elves came to existence.

Night elves always had the arcane and created the mage class, they are the ones that started this practice and the lore writes them to have gone the furthest in it and counts their race members as the best at it amongst the humanoid races.

Because now eredar don't exist.

They didn't want night elves a full on forest elf race, nor did they want them a full on dark elf race, they gave them both, and created 2 extreme era states for them where they max out expertise in both, but always had both as a part of them. This is their intention. Now they can create a pure forest race. The Night Fae can be, You also have the Children of Cenarius, they are pure forest. It's the same with savage race. Those who expect night elves to be savage, when they're not, like every race they can have parts that have a savagery, but as has been said many a time, when you want to do savage, you don't call the race elf. And blizzard didn't, the savage race are worgen, and to a lesser extent some of the horde races have a much higher degree of savagery in them. You really don't see night elves in Warcraft behaving like savages, or exclusively as forest elves either.

Worgen are very civilised at most of circumstances. And their culture is clearly above whatever Tyrande created. Night elves are as savage as Zandalari. This comparison is so great that Zandalari even have an insignificant minority of arcanitals who are more civilised. However, I think caste of Zandalari priests is a bit bigger than Priesthood of Elune but this is difficult to measure.

Somehow I doubt that was the intention of what was been said. I believe it is the horde fans that feel alliance night elf fans don't have a right to their own night elf lore. I for one, very much support the blood elves having more of night elf stuff, I love showing connection, and they are very much connected.

There are some people trying to prevent Horde from having their own lore. It was visible when they added Nazjatar.

I have also cheered and supported horde elves getting druids, blood elves and ofc Nightborne who I have felt should do. I actually really like how they go about things in Warcraft for racial set up (though they could do a lot more to show it - I hate the neglect). I also believe Mace is fairly similar, he was a huge orc fan, and he plays both factions, I also do. Not seen him have a go at horde elves for having part of night elf history. They do, they are from night elves.

Exactly. Blood elves deserve every bit of pre Sundering elf story. They also have ties with naga.

The point here is fans who think Night elves don't have a part of night elf history. Keep posting that night elves shouldn't be using arcane magic, shouldn't have cities or civilization, and often enough, only because blood elves have that - Mace is right, I've seen it too, as if only their elven groups are entitled to. That has never been my gripe.

I would say a bit different. Night elves need time and change in leadership to do that. Hopefully Shadowlands will give us time skip, which is hinted by one major character in the Maw.

I think you would be very hard pressed to find any alliance fan or player that says Blood elves shouldn't have forests or magic that affects nature because night elves have it. I don't think blizzard thinks like that either.

I can afford losing forests. I don't like losing fel, however.

Both being elves, they have similar things, Blood elves come from night elves, what they tend to do is give the night elf stuff a different expression. In this case their arcane is more intense, and its night star and moon based, their nature is more intense, huge ancient trees etc.

Blood elf arcane is very intense. Too intense for Rhonin.

but thinks like the Emerald dream, Arcane magic, Fel demon hunting, they are not meant exclusively for the Night elves.

I am not a fan of Emerald Dream given to blood elves. I would like them to have more sophisticated druidism. Just like with the Light, I would prefer tapping into Sunwell(some paladins do that without worship) over revering the Light(like Liadrin and many of her followers).

The Night elves are an ancient and major race. Unlike the high elves, they were actually created to be a full race (high elves in the form of blood elves only become that in TBC), therefore Night elves are given as the origin of many elven things, their story and great age also demands that their arcane, nature of fel magic isn't going to be weak. The things they do, because they are elves, and have lived a long time, they have done to a very high level.

Keep in mind that their arcane and fel developed in prisons.

I think the whole point of a roleplaying game is you can play your character how you olike However I think you keep thinking of druids when you think of night elves, and this is why night elves in any other role seems odd. Demon hunters don't dress like druids or priests or mages. Highborne won't dress like druids.

As I said, priestesses of Elune. Sentinels and civilians don't dress like that. They have more practical clothes. A highborne mage could dress like that too.

Night elves don't all dress exactly the same. I mean, Matrix, should I really have to point these things out to you? c'mon bud, I expect better.

I divided it by castes. You misinterpret me on purpose to call me dumb.

More masculine? canon? Where? Bigger yes, but that is just taller. Never heard about more masculine. I guess the hunter/warrior types appear more masculine, but I always thought they were babes that could wield weapons as good as any man, but were women not men. They were not humans either, so I never felt they needed to be masculine to be able to do those things. But sure, I can see why this fits.

Masculine in more of an aesthetical term. More square-like faces, more musculature, greater height. I think you know what I am talking about. Blood elves are more feminine. They are less buff, more delicate, have smaller noses, etc.

Also, I was talking about entire race, not only females. Sorry for not being specific.

Unknown Highborne ancestry? Erm, there are living Highborne, that's not unknown, there are also temple priests, and civilians, - but I agree with you that some could look a bit more delicate, and I would say should. The classic model had them all delicate, She was based on the female Priestess. The 6.0 model rework based her on the female sentinel /hunter instead.

Highborne, and on that matter people brought up in less harsh environments, tend to look more delicate. Highborne, as evidenced by Blizzard art have a bit different appearance than night elves, which was mentioned by Mace thousands of times. A night elf that would have greater family ties to highborne and blood elves would look more delicate.

what's really odd is when some fans come into a discussion and start mentioning other races the discussion si not about, accusing the fans of the topic for loving elves and that other races need attention, not just elves. You just wonder and think.. "why don't you go make your own topic about it and those that want other things for those races, can happily chime in with their contributions, instead of coming into elf topics and having a go at them for loving elves and wanting to improve elves. [same also goes for night elf topics in particular)

I am talking about elves in elf topics. I like coming to your threads because you are often asking for things that I want for Horde, so I come to say "Blizzard, give this to both of us". It leaves some forum space.

Done. Now I can reply to your replies.

[Mace]

Posture adjustments to the Neck:




I am hoping they adjust this too, the old model posture is much more likeable to the new model, look at the neck on the males in particular.


Faces - Translating better versions from the old

Now they can add new male night elf faces, by doing a better job of translating form the old. Now two of the old male faces I like very much, and it is my opinion hat the fan artists modelled their night elves ont hat. Check it out:



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AND

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These 2 faces from classic don't really have an equivalent in the WoD remake - the fanartists take the classic face and give it the sort of lift or translation to HD I had hoped for in the new models of 6.0. 3 expansions later in 10.0, well I would be happy with them making those faces from classic, translate to good looking ones on live.




Matrix123mko Response is long but

Ravenmoon's reply to Matrix123mko even longer, I don't think I could add any more to that. it is sufficient, I'll skip to some of the points I've noticed you make.

As I said multiple times, Darnassian night elves are not Illidari or Shen'dralar. It is like saying that orc culture, the one of Thrall's orcs, is fel one because of Shadow Council remmants that live in caves..

As I said multiple times, nightborne and Moonguard don't represent night elf culture. Or they do, depending on nomenclature. However, they are not the night elves that are playable in Alliance, just like playable trolls don't represent Hakkari culture of Gurubashi Empire. Similarily, many ogre tribes are completely different from Gorian Empire. To be honest, Gorian Empire is very similar to Kaldorei Empire: completely obliterated to the point of many descendants living in different culture.

I think there is your problem, you are saying night elven cultures aren't night elf culture.

The race has many cultures, when you play a night elf, you are playing druidic culture , priest culture, Illidari culture, Highborne culture - the race has all of these in it, and you are playing an aspect of it as you choose.

If a group of night elves are living that way , it is a night elf culture. No buts, no exception. What you are doing is picking and choosing to fit only your narrative.

Oh but that's not the Darnassian culture - or really, Present day Darnassian society IS NOT a long vigil society. It is not in isolation, it uses arcane magic, it has allies, friends, it has Highborne, even the Illidari are taking part, there are undead too. The druid culture is also different from the priest culture.

Yes, they are not the same, they are two different cultures, Priests aren't dwelling in forests, revering and fixing nature. They're in Temples or patrolling they have their distinct customs.

Sorry, but it seems you have decided Night elven culture is anything but stuff that deals with the arcane, and that's just laughable.

It is the most important part of night elf identity. They have sentinels and civilians too but all three groups were very important. In Warcraft 3, their buildings are treants.

That is your opinion. Saying its the most important is opinion. Please have the honesty to recgonise it as such and not make it what it isn't.

What is fact is that it is the most prominently SHOWN part of the Darnassian society during WC3. An era that ends SPPECTACULARLY in the very series it was shown in.

1. It was not the only idnentity or aspect of the Night elves, their empire was global, that is the bigger one
2. It ended, just because it is the first shown, doesn't mean its the most important. All we know is that it is prominent. But it is not the only iconic or promientn one, nor is it

Their current one is taking a new shape that is already vastly different from the all exclusive nature one.

If the game starts showing you one thing, but then has novels that tell another, then every successive iteration they show you more of the night elf cultures, and go to great lengths.

WC3 may have only been trees and buildings, but that was just the stage of the story.. the novels and development tell you directly that wasn't all.

Later wow, then 4.0, then 7.0 show you more.

In fact.. if you take your reference point from any of it, then you should from 7.0 (as opposed to WC3), they spent the most time on it and it is the biggest show of night elves in the game, eclipsing the WC3 effort and classic. For showing the Night elf peoples and their cultures. It is far more comprehensive of the whole picture, and shows things in the lore from day one.

Notice the plural, cultures. And notice I don't say one is the most important. to druids, nature is the most important, and that culture. To priests its Elune and the temples, to Highborne/Moonguard it's the arcane and cities. To Illidari its fel and demons. They are all important, and they are ALL Night elven.

Just because one stands out to you the most, don't try to make it as if its the only important one. They are all important.

Tbh, I just see this as denial of the dark elf side of the Night elf in a horde only fan's belief that arcane mastery and elven civilization are the exclusive purview and right of the horde and its elves only. So how dare Night elf fans muscle in on our territory.

• No, it's not your territory, it is not exclusive property of you or the horde, the very blood elves and Nightborne are alliance races ported over,
• They are not there to rob the night elves or transfer half of their identity to the other faction.
• They are merely another people group for you to play a different looking type of night elf and experience some of what the Kaldorei have on the horde.

It wouldn't matter to me one bit if the Nightborne added druidism and Elunism, it is in their racial heritage, why would I have a problem. Why should you have a problem with something that is a part of the night elves from day one still being a part of the night elves and actually getting decent development.

What makes you think night elf fans ONLY ever want druid and nature upgrades, and don't care or desire about their arcane side or their civilization and cities that are part of the lore? Such drew and attracted many to the night elves including myself. I'm not a forest person, they're pretty or can be, but that's what they. For me, peoples, cultures, civilizations now this is what interests me the most.

It's never just been about forests and nature for night elves. Its always been about the arcane, Elune and nature at the core, with Fel developing during the invasion of the legion. and now all 4 are majoar tenets of the race.

[FossilFree]

Posture adjustments to the Neck:




I am hoping they adjust this too, the old model posture is much more likeable to the new model, look at the neck on the males in particular.

Well Alliance is technically owed one posture change to match what the orcs got. Unless it's Horde favoritism rearing its ugly head again?