Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (NOT High Elves)

[ravenmoon]

@Mace , @EnigmAddict

I think many of the night elf problems (in the eyes of the fans) boils down to them being shown as rubbish, no one would question night elven arcane aptitutde if t was shown like it was in Suramar or with the Moonguard or Farondis,

Instead it was shown to the horde in Azshara zone as naive and outdated, which fit the story lore and circumstances in that zone, but it wasn't been remedied since, then Nightborne show up but given horde, so it looks like yet another crap on alliance, Same with all these cries for savage night elves, they're really crying for night elves not been walked over, no one ones night elves turning into savage animals, not even Team Savage Kaldorei. WC3 night elves were never shown as savage, but they were tough, and kicked you around not the other way around (which happens a lot in wow. If blizzard conver nighte lves to savage because they mis-interpret what the fans actually say, then they have a comprehension

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@Mace @EnigmAddict @ravenmoon @FossilFree @matrix123mko

I wonder if... we could maybe... try to focus on what little details we could hopefully... possibly... all agree upon? :-)

I believe nobody is denying that that the Shen'dralar exist and belong with the Night Elves, as this has already happened, and it is canon.

Fact is, that

while it is undeniable that the Arcane has been at the core of the Kaldorei civilization in the past

, as this lead to a series of major Lore events,

it is also undeniable that following these events, the elven population split in relation to a ban SPECIFICALLY relating to the choice of continuing the experiments with magic

.

Whether this was right or wrong, totally exclusive or not, it does not change the fact that

it set a very specific identity trend for both factions

.

Now, the Night Elves have VERY RECENTLY allowed some groups of isolated Highborne mages to return to train some young in the Arcane. But yes, they are a minority, and yes, they were 'welcomed' with suspicion and are exceptional cases, so it is perfectly understandable for people to feel afraid that giving too much special attention to them may alter the overall Night Elves flavor bringing it dangerously too close to what has been explicitly set by Blizzard at the core of the Blood Elves and Nightborne civilizations and identity.

You're right here, but as is always the case when Night elves come up, and talking about the Highborne, or improving the Night elves in anyway that doesn't make them look savage or rural, you do have a small number of Horde fans with issues of it. Why they should, is something well covered. so yes, we should focus more on the model, Which is what this is meant to be.

Very nice set of points btw.

2. Could Blizzard add some lighter skin tones and a slimmer model to the Night Elves males without breaking their Lore?

For the skins, to me it is a yes: there are already pink and light purple options for the Night Elves females, and a few more lighter and darker shades within the same palette will hardly hurt anybody (and are already being added for most races anyway).

As for an alternate model, more work for the art team so much less likely to happen, but we have seen Blizzard implement posture changes for different races, and even give bones/no bones options for the Undead, so it would not be unheard of.

In fact, Night Elves Highborne or not, I feel that most of us could agree that many races would benefit from the addition of a choice between a bulkier and slimmer build, as we often have very silly male casters in huge muscular bodies and elegant female warriors which seem a bit too frail for the job. :-)

Regarding skin tone, I honestly don't have a problem, and nor should horde fans. If Highborne night elves are supposed to be largely paler, then we should have light skin tones that refelect this choice. We know not all of them will be or are, some are blue-tinged purple like Azshara or very dark like Xavius, they were picked on magical skill not skin-shade .

Slimmer model I now agree is unfeasible, but a toned down musculature, that might be possible - however, I think wearing robes does the job, notice the Night elf in robes, at least the male does look slimmer, especially in the legs, so no change might be necessary.

Now making them slim like Nightborne I would understand horde fans having an issue with this, but if that's what the devs do, then this is what is possible. however, I can only see Nightborne models being available for this. With Night elf ears and other features on them instead. The work is done, the question is, do you want night elves to look that way? Afterall, void elves copy the same model as the blood elves, and Nightborne are the night elfves on the horde.

It's entirely up to blizzard, but I would see how some horde fans may not like this, this is more reasonable to object with than objecting to night elves having highborne customisations or better development to the highborne and other parts of their race. But ultimately they should remember that Nightborne are a Night elf thing, just like void elve are a high/blood elf thing. They don't belong to any faction, and the devs can do as they please.

[Mace]

@Mace @EnigmAddict @ravenmoon @FossilFree @matrix123mko

I wonder if... we could maybe... try to focus on what little details we could hopefully... possibly... all agree upon? :-)

I believe nobody is denying that that the Shen'dralar exist and belong with the Night Elves, as this has already happened, and it is canon.

Fact is, that while it is undeniable that the Arcane has been at the core of the Kaldorei civilization in the past, as this lead to a series of major Lore events, it is also undeniable that following these events, the elven population split in relation to a ban SPECIFICALLY relating to the choice of continuing the experiments with magic.

Whether this was right or wrong, totally exclusive or not, it does not change the fact that it set a very specific identity trend for both factions.
snip

Well said. But do note, some of those fans are intentionally marginalising the Highborne when it is quite clear the mage wielders are not so small a minority, and as you correctly say, magic is a core part of the Night elves, has always been and was always amongst the race in all the stories and depictions of both the Pre-sunderig era and the long vigil. There is an ulterior motivation for what we see here. And it might be a fear, but I think it is more covetousness, There is a very specific type of fan that has an objection to this. Vast majority do not.

Visit the High elf threads as an example. It's a classic "It's my stuff, you can't have it" .. when it really doesn't belong to you. In this case, just because the Nightborne were given to the horde, all of a sudden, Night elves have no right to it. Interpreting that decision from the deves as some sort of proof, despite continuing night elf mage and highbonre presence proving to the contrary. Even the existence of the Nightborne and Suramar being done is proof of that, yet just because it's given to the horde, it's now a case of "it's mine you can't have it, you have forests and trees" and every excuse imaginable.

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@Mace , @EnigmAddict

I think many of the night elf problems (in the eyes of the fans) boils down to them being shown as rubbish, no one would question night elven arcane aptitutde if t was shown like it was in Suramar or with the Moonguard or Farondis,

Instead it was shown to the horde in Azshara zone as naive and outdated, which fit the story lore and circumstances in that zone, but it wasn't been remedied since, then Nightborne show up but given horde, so it looks like yet another crap on alliance, Same with all these cries for savage night elves, they're really crying for night elves not been walked over, no one ones night elves turning into savage animals, not even Team Savage Kaldorei. WC3 night elves were never shown as savage, but they were tough, and kicked you around not the other way around (which happens a lot in wow. If blizzard conver nighte lves to savage because they mis-interpret what the fans actually say, then they have a comprehension

Exactly, my point is they showed the Moonguard and Farondis as powerful and very much arcane, so @EnigmAddict might be right when he says they are there, but the problem is those aren't associated with alliance night elves, and it should

[Beloren]

Exactly, my point is they showed the Moonguard and Farondis as powerful and very much arcane, so @EnigmAddict might be right when he says they are there, but the problem is those aren't associated with alliance night elves, and it should

No it doesn't have to, that's just bragging rights, being there should be enough. You just want your night elves to be super powerful - it's your right I guess. Let's call it what it is.

[Mace]

No it doesn't have to, that's just bragging rights, being there should be enough. You just want your night elves to be super powerful - it's your right I guess. Let's call it what it is.

Nothing's wrong with that dude. So only horde elves should be powerful?

[Beloren]

Nothing's wrong with that dude. So only horde elves should be powerful?

Fine, I walked into that one, I didn't really mean it that way. , maybe you're right, Night elf fans have been feeling pretty low, with their oh so mighty race been shown as weaklings (soz, couldn't help it, you get triggered so easily). however you do QQ a lot too.

4. How about allowing a player to play a Shen’dralar Highborne rather than one of their trainees?

When Shadowlands give us the new Exile's Reach starting experience the character's story won't conflict. This is exactly like the Blood or Dark Troll customization being added despite of the old Darkspear starting area, and the Wildhammer Dwarf customization being added despite of the old Ironforge starting area: a simple aesthetic choice, so that the players can roleplay their characters as they prefer.

So while which customization to add for each race is obviously totally up to Blizzard... adding some 'Highborne' customization would not break the Lore, nor would in any way require a rework of their racial identity.

Besides, for as long as the figures of Malfurion and Tyrande remain as leaders of the Night Elves it feels rather unlikely that the Arcane will be reinstated as a prominent trait, regardless of undoubtedly belonging to the Night Elven identity in its unique way since a very distant past.

I remember Metzen particularly saying, if you want to play as a 10k year old Shen'dralar you can. I also believe Danuser re-iterated this, don't let the quest text stop you, because we just can't feasibly provide unique starting areas for every group we are giving you access to play. So if that's who your character is, that is who it is, regardless of the quest text.

[Mace]

Fine, I walked into that one, I didn't really mean it that way. , maybe you're right, Night elf fans have been feeling pretty low, with their oh so mighty race been shown as weaklings (soz, couldn't help it, you get triggered so easily). however you do QQ a lot too.

Well, we have cause to, cos it sucks, - when hordies don't like what's happening with their story and focus, I see a lot of QQ....

As a NElf supporter, it sucks to always lose, it sucks to always been shown in devastated ground zero state, just forests and ruins, then your best city , you don't even access to and it is no longer associated with the elves you like, even though it is there lore. Sorry, it might be partisan, but they created this partisan feeling by stoking the divide.

when you really like something, you want it to get better and do well. The devs are partly to blame for NElf fans being so vocal, they've been trashing a race they really like. Hordies may have loved that, but it became the go to thing, and I think Nelf fans were very patient, to feel they shouldn't say something is a bit unreasonable, there is only so much bashing your fave things can take before you say something about it.

[Ardenaso]

Enough with the mental gymastics and just accept it already that there's nothing wrong with giving Night Elves Highborne look just like Ironforge Dwarves getting Wildhammer look

[ravenmoon]

Well, we have cause to, cos it sucks, - when hordies don't like what's happening with their story and focus, I see a lot of QQ....

As a NElf supporter, it sucks to always lose, it sucks to always been shown in devastated ground zero state, just forests and ruins, then your best city , you don't even access to and it is no longer associated with the elves you like, even though it is there lore. Sorry, it might be partisan, but they created this partisan feeling by stoking the divide.

when you really like something, you want it to get better and do well. The devs are partly to blame for NElf fans being so vocal, they've been trashing a race they really like. Hordies may have loved that, but it became the go to thing, and I think Nelf fans were very patient, to feel they shouldn't say something is a bit unreasonable, there is only so much bashing your fave things can take before you say something about it.

And this is why fans like @Rhlor and myself feel that elves should get along. You use to feel that way once, I remember you were the one advocating for elven corporation when Iwanted war. Part of the issue would be solved if the Nightborne and Night elves were shown to have good working relationships independent of hte horde /alliance divide, that way you don't need to build any city or prop up the Highborne or anything like that, they'd be welcome back in Suramar, they'd be easy exchange between the two - and either agree not to hate each other, or even decide to corporate together to bring peace and wisdom to the alliance and horde, like a parent would a child.




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Fine, I walked into that one, I didn't really mean it that way. , maybe you're right, Night elf fans have been feeling pretty low, with their oh so mighty race been shown as weaklings (soz, couldn't help it, you get triggered so easily). however you do QQ a lot too.

Then don't trigger him if you know that is the case, it's not a nice thing to do and is veering a good topic a bit off course.

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3. How about the addition of specific extra customization for the Night Elves mages?
I find this highly unlikely since it would be a lot of work for a minority, but it still would not need to change the overall racial flavor. In fact, Blizzard could always unlock them through a tale explaining how rare Night Elves mages are and what a hard life they have due to the prejudice and distrust they might have to face from some druids. Not going to happen... but a person can dream, right? ;-)

Night elf mages aren't rare as Mace has said. The Shen'dralar are an entire city of them, dwindled down to a few hundred, who in turn started training lots of night elf mages, both novices and returned Darnassians, they are not rare. That sentiment is coming from horde fans who hate the idea of night elf development in the arcane, and some of Team savage kaldorei . The lore shows schools of night elves, the biggest amount of students on par with the druid students.
ANd in WoT, the mages were the least affected by the genocide. As they'd have either been away on Kirin'tor business or making portals to evacuate as many people as possible.
However, I feel blizzard is moving away from special customisation for classes. I would like this also, but the new customiations seem to want access to as many clases. A mage customiation tbh makes sense as a Highborne, and it is a race that gets a customisation, the demon hunters are the Illidari half-demon night elves , the DKs are the undead night elf group - both cases it's a race thing or group thing. So it would be highobrne in this case. Except you ask yourself , why can't a warrior person, or hunter identify as a highborne? The lore has examples of highborne being warriors, hunters, rogues despite being the caste most talented with arcane magic. Furthermore the priesthood accepts anyone who wants, why can't a highborne choose to be a priest? Also the lore did say Highborne who didn't join Darth'remar switched to druidsm while the ban was up, even if many switched back, who's to say some might not go back or some never left?
As such the customiation can be available to all classes,

[Mace]

And this is why fans like @Rhlor and myself feel that elves should get along. You use to feel that way once, I remember you were the one advocating for elven corporation when Iwanted war. Part of the issue would be solved if the Nightborne and Night elves were shown to have good working relationships independent of hte horde /alliance divide, that way you don't need to build any city or prop up the Highborne or anything like that, they'd be welcome back in Suramar, they'd be easy exchange between the two - and either agree not to hate each other, or even decide to corporate together to bring peace and wisdom to the alliance and horde, like a parent would a child.

Or they can show alliance high elves as powerful and magical to just the same extent as the non-alliance ones like Moonguard/Farondis and the Nightborne too. And none of this removes the desire, importance, relevance or need for a Highborne customisation.

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Enough with the mental gymastics and just accept it already that there's nothing wrong with giving Night Elves Highborne look just like Ironforge Dwarves getting Wildhammer look

It's typical of some particular fans, have you not seen Obelisk Kai on the High Elf megathreads - anything for High Elves never to happen. Like a self assigned 1-man mission to block the alliance from getting High elves, and it's encouraged them to start imposing the same on Night elves, even though night elves and Highborne are playable.

It shows you it never had anything to do with being playable or not. Pure jealous coveteous possessiveness. The guy who buys the White Beemer and doesn't want his rival to get it at any cost, even though the rival had pre-ordered well before, and it was coming but just got delayed.

[Beloren]

Well have it your way, like I said on the High elf forum, I really don't care if alliance get high elves and what not, blizzard crossed all those imaginary lines a long time ago, and I actually don't think it would make much of a difference, only upset some of the die hards.

High elves are already available, Highborne already have an allied race, it's Nightborne, however there is nothing wrong with the actual Highborne players and NPCs also looking the part.

Just putting it out there, I won't oppose your desires. I am not the jealous type anyway, and it's just a game, if you want your Highborne toon to look the part, good for you if you get it.

[ravenmoon]

Or they can show alliance high elves as powerful and magical to just the same extent as the non-alliance ones like Moonguard/Farondis and the Nightborne too. And none of this removes the desire, importance, relevance or need for a Highborne customisation.
.

I'll agree to that, whether your way, my way, enigmaddicts way or matrix123mko's way, a highborne customisation would be good to have.
I just don't want any Nelf fan like Astranea or anyone else, feel like they have to apolgoise for liking Night elves or Highborne, and need to some how placate fans when they're being petty, or change their desire to suit them.
You have every right to desire better things of the night elves, and to want to see more of the stuff in your lore come out in game. There is nothing wrong or bad about that, and you certainly shouldn't apologise or lower your expectations or desires because theydon't want it. They're not even Night elf fans. They don't actually care about Nelves, they just don't want their rivals to look better or be better, it's pure male base competitiveness
. You're never going to please everyone, so don't apologise and don't feel bad, you are well within your rights to ask this, talk about it, imagine about it. don't let them poop your party.
And I won't say more on that issue.
No one has commented on my face comparison.

[Beloren]

I'll agree to that, whether your way, my way, enigmaddicts way or matrix123mko's way, a highborne customisation would be good to have.
I just don't want any Nelf fan like Astranea or anyone else, feel like they have to apolgoise for liking Night elves or Highborne, and need to some how placate fans when they're being petty, or change their desire to suit them.
You have every right to desire better things of the night elves, and to want to see more of the stuff in your lore come out in game. There is nothing wrong or bad about that, and you certainly shouldn't apologise or lower your expectations or desires because theydon't want it. They're not even Night elf fans. They don't actually care about Nelves, they just don't want their rivals to look better or be better, it's pure male base competitiveness
. You're never going to please everyone, so don't apologise and don't feel bad, you are well within your rights to ask this, talk about it, imagine about it. don't let them poop your party.
And I won't say more on that issue.
No one has commented on my face comparison.

My way please !!

Btw @Astranea did you do any more artwork.. I liked your picture, not so sure about the diamonds in the eyes though, How but something akin to freckles, but instead of spots, its stars? Or even better, it's like the constellations on their skin - you know Kaldorei folk being star obsessed, maybe some magic stargazing causes this

See i'm contributing.

[Ardenaso]

High elves are already available, Highborne already have an allied race, it's Nightborne, however there is nothing wrong with the actual Highborne players and NPCs also looking the part.

I'm gonna need you to stop there because I need to push my Horde Alteraci Humans

[Rhlor]

Well, we have cause to, cos it sucks, - when hordies don't like what's happening with their story and focus, I see a lot of QQ....

As a NElf supporter, it sucks to always lose, it sucks to always been shown in devastated ground zero state, just forests and ruins, then your best city , you don't even access to and it is no longer associated with the elves you like, even though it is there lore. Sorry, it might be partisan, but they created this partisan feeling by stoking the divide.

when you really like something, you want it to get better and do well. The devs are partly to blame for NElf fans being so vocal, they've been trashing a race they really like. Hordies may have loved that, but it became the go to thing, and I think Nelf fans were very patient, to feel they shouldn't say something is a bit unreasonable, there is only so much bashing your fave things can take before you say something about it.

the story of the horde is shit! civil wars, evil warchiefs, or capital constantly under siege, racial leaders deaths.

the alliance are the heroes of marvel!! the justice league!! always good and victorious!

I understand you do not like what happens to the night elves. the problem is blizzard's bad writing and faction system.

[ravenmoon]

Whether this was right or wrong, totally exclusive or not, it does not change the fact that it set a very specific identity trend for both factions.
.

Hun, it didn't set a trend, don't let them fool you. They're intentionally interpreting it as that, when there is enough evidence this is not the case. Were cities and magic ever exclusive to the horde? or alliance? Why do they feel it suddenly is to the horde?

blizzard didn't even make elves or humans for that matter exclusive to the Alliance, showing time and time again things on both sides. It's nothing new. They should know better. Alliance fans were upset blood evles went horde, and in that situationat least they had precedence, because high elves had always been alliance, this is far less severe, because night elves always had highborne, arcane magic and cities. They have no leg to stand on here. and blood elves went horde, that didn't stop alliance from having elves, ieven high elves, And why should it? Cos some people can't deal.

remember, purple skinned elves went horde 14 years later.. Not exclusive.

[Mace]

Hun, it didn't set a trend, don't let them fool you. They're intentionally interpreting it as that, when there is enough evidence this is not the case. Were cities and magic ever exclusive to the horde? or alliance? Why do they feel it suddenly is to the horde?

blizzard didn't even make elves or humans for that matter exclusive to the Alliance, showing time and time again things on both sides. It's nothing new. They should know better. Alliance fans were upset blood evles went horde, and in that situationat least they had precedence, because high elves had always been alliance, this is far less severe, because night elves always had highborne, arcane magic and cities. They have no leg to stand on here. and blood elves went horde, that didn't stop alliance from having elves, ieven high elves, And why should it? Cos some people can't deal.

remember, purple skinned elves went horde 14 years later.. Not exclusive.

Exactly. My dear and talented @Astranea , don't let any of this get to you

• At first the horde elves were "defined " by being pale skinned elves, not by having Night elf cities and Highborne night elves, nor having exclusive rights to arcane magic.
• we mustn't forget Night elves had all these things, both ancient and recent, long before the Nightborne were created, and certainly before they went horde.
• To then now say, because they took the Nightborne horde, that these things are horde therefore alliance shouldn't get them is rubbish, bad argument and very leading.
• Blizzard did not create Nightborne to steal or prevent the Night elves from being Highborne, or using arcane magic or having night elven cities - those things are not horde exclusive -
• The purple skin sure isn't alliance exclusive, druidism? Not alliance exclusive either, in fact it never has been, nor have High elves or horde elves been the only ones to have cities or arcane magic

Look at most races, most races have cities, magic, priesthoods etc, in fact what they vary on is the theme, not having these things. And allied race, allied race don’t' steal from main races, they are just versions of main races across the board, whether Highmountain or Lightforged o r Void elf, Nightborne, Mag'har .. it's the same thing.. they haven't suddenly made an exception for Night elves because the Nightborne are more on the horde. It's more a case of horde fans don't want you.

They just want all the cool stuff, even if it's part of your races stuff, and will do mental gymnastics to make I seem and feel it should be theirs and theirs alone, even when it was yours first and is still yours. It's not the first time they've done this. either.

Now with night elves getting pale skin and what not, the message couldn't be clearer from blizz, despite what they want or say. And we've seen all the arguments, it is a very small minority, that get very vocal, and whiles more might think o r feel, they're actually not that bothered. So what if high elves and night elves had a horde version, no big deal, the irony is now objecting to night elves seeing their stuff shown out.

[Beloren]

I'm gonna need you to stop there because I need to push my Horde Alteraci Humans

Hey don't blame me, it's your blizzard that put them ehere not me, you want your elves to look like the highborne they are, take it up with them.
[See, I even admit that Night elves can be Highborne]

[Mace]

Hey don't blame me, it's your blizzard that put them ehere not me, you want your elves to look like the highborne they are, take it up with them.
[See, I even admit that Night elves can be Highborne]

You are to blame if you go about interpreting that Nightborne on the horde means that Alliance Night elves can't be Highborne or shouldn't get Highborne customisations or should be rubbish at arcane magic, and all live in trees and hug them.

Then come on a topic, Night elf fans are exploring and expressing what sort of customisations they should have, only to tell them that they can't or shouldn't have them because "Nightborne are Highborne, and blizzard put that on the horde, therefore it's ours, you can't have it anymore" /rolleyes. [Just like @Tharivor and @Alanar]

And admitting the obvious, [That night elves can be Highborne), gets you no brownie points and does not make the wrong things you said right nor make you sound more reasonable.

[Ardenaso]

Hey don't blame me, it's your blizzard that put them ehere not me, you want your elves to look like the highborne they are, take it up with them.
[See, I even admit that Night elves can be Highborne]

huh? 10 characters

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I think you quoted the wrong person

[Alanar]

I'm gonna need you to stop there because I need to push my Horde Alteraci Humans

The truth can do strange things to people.

Its exactly what anigma said. There is a whole lotta nothing in here, because the ship has sailed for it to be a playable race.

If you get your jewerly and some sexy haircut for night elves will you be happy and shut up? Or is there more to this whole thread besides some hairstyles and eye colors?

Its funny, dont wanna sound harsh, but it realy starts to look like you are debating with yourself here? I mean you are the one who is doing all of this.@ mace

Most new options for the races arent even in, so I assume some will come and hopefully for you will spark that highborne interest. Honestly.

But the qq to nightborne and all the jelly feelings should stop. We get it and we dont need a essay of headcanon or 100 pictures being sent if some one dissagrees mace. It always makes for a terrible discussion.

Lets just stop this.. its been the high elf fanpage 2.0 already, lets not makr it worse.