WoW is a subscription game - why employ scummy F2P tactics?

[Astalnar]

Because sheep are willing to be shorn naked. That's why. If the playerbase revolted en masse when they introduced this F2P crap in a subscription based game, and cancelled their subscription for a month, Blizzard would be dancing to a different tune.

But no, people, in large majority are fine with most of anything. And Blizzard is more than willing to take their money away for them.

[jellmoo]

SNIP

Ironically enough I’ve also worked in the film industry (well, VFX) and I would consider that one much worse, but I digress...

im not disagreeing with you. Greed is the motivator. But when we talk about publicly traded companies, it’s a universal fact. They exist to make money, and they do that by maximizing profit.

My arguments aren’t “they’re not greedy”. My arguments are “they are doing X because over the years they have made less profit doing Y”.

I personally don’t have a problem with their approach to MTX. It does not allow for pay to win, and consists of QoL and cosmetic items. That’s fine by me. I’ve seen and worked with sooooo much worse.

Other people disagree though and that’s fine. I just take umbrage when people refuse to understand some of the underlying reasons behind these things.

[ghays]

Because money, big businesses wants all the money, not just some but all of it.

Yep. Just like individual oeople

[Garymorilix]

But the problem is Naby, the vast majority of players do put their money where their mouth is, and dont purchase these things. But Blizzard know that, and they dont care, because whaling is based on the 80:20 rule that states only 20% of the customers will make 80% of the revenue.

So essentially the 80% that are putting their money where their mouth is, and thus not approving of it, dont matter. system works like this.

Problem: System is designed to thrive on human inability to successfully boycott or resist a product/service.
Solution: Just boycott/resist product/service.

Dosent work.

And why the fuck do you care about shit you dont want to buy?

I dont buy baby products, or gluten free shit or microwaves or hookers or whatever yet I dont complain about them existing. Cuz I dont care.

Same with the i game shop. Never bought anything and I dont care it exists. I dont bitch. I can set my priorities. Do the same.

[Monoxide]

Here's the thing though. You really don't. The last time games cost in the area of $40 was during the NES days. And if you account for inflation, those $40 back then is more than the $60 we pay now.

SNES games went upwards of $80 in some cases. Again, adjusting for inflation we are wayyy higher than the current prices.

The cost of making AAA games has skyrocketed, but the outright price has, if anything, actually gone down. Companies are using MTX to make up the difference. And when done well (cosmetic items that don't impact gameplay) allows for them to spend the money to ddevelop games people enjoy, whilst supplementing the shortfall with extra income by people who want those (non-essential) extras.

Is every company doing MTX well? Absolutely not. There are some shitty practices. But companies are also seeing a lot of backlash from it and adjusting. Look at the shitstorm that Battlefront caused for EA. They are being considerably more careful with how they handle MTX now.

Sorry but that's a bullshit cop-out. Games these days still launch in basically beta phases. Did you try Red Dead Redemption 2's online play in the first month? lol

It's not like nickel and diming people has lead to these great amazing games being released. They still release in a shit form and have to be patched to get to where the game should've been at launch.

You really think it takes a ton of effort to make NHL19 after you've done the same hockey game for 10 years?

Go look up reviews for the newest WWE game. The graphics are literally worse than last years release, and they massively cut the roster.

Go look at the new Pokemon games, same thing, they're using 2013 X/Y animations, increased the cost of the game from previous release, and cut out 400+ Pokemon and 150+ moves.

I get what you're saying, and it would be valid, but it doesn't match up with reality.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, why isn't it still the year 1997 anymore??? Why can't the video game industry not adapt to become more profitable? Why did all these fucking NORMIES have to start playing video games and spending all their money in ways I'm morally apposed to for reasons I can only vaguely define as an apprehension towards capitalism??? Grr! EA bad, praise Geraldo!

Your stance on everything is "maintain the status quo". I've realized that about you. If anyone takes any issue with anything, you act like a fucking prick and pretend that they're being unreasonable for wanting something to be better.

Instead of being a whiney contrarian with every single post, why don't you inject something of value to the conversation? All you do is show up to tell people "Your opinion doesn't count, everything is fine, nothing to see here."

Also, I was vague about why I dislike MTX. I was very clear about it. You used to be able to buy a game and that was it, you owned the game. Now you have to spend twice as much, and you have to do it before the game even comes out (gotta get the pre-order DLC), so you're spending $120+ on the game, before the game even comes out, and at the price point you still don't have the full game. You then need to spend $X on microtransactions to gamble on loot boxes. I know, Mr. Status Quo, you see no issue with this. That's fine. Ignorance is bliss.

[Lazuli]

Because you'll pay for it while complaining, I learned long ago if you're still willing to make shitposts about WoW you're still addicted to it. Stop giving a fuck and find a new MMO or play single player games,. WoW is fucking trash dawg accept it and get over it build a bridge for your tears and a house right next to it so you can grow into a better more intellectual person.

I was looking forward to the new expac kinda until I saw sylvanas, they don't give a dang what players think, they still gonna self insert that cunt and she 1shot the lich king like really if you don't abandon ship now I guarantee you never will but otherwise enjoy the next infinite grind and 123 rotations don't worry you'll get 1 extra spell that you used to have. People making a big deal out of that likes its some huge skill change is hilarious. Blizz aint gonna revert the prune, stop lying to yourselves.

[Lazuli]

VFX is one of the worst in the industry itself so thats for sure.

Well yes it absolutely is and you are absolutely right on the universal fact part. And yes they are of course doing this to maximise profits, but in essence, we are arguing the same point in a different way, you are explaining why they are doing it from an internal standpoint, while I am arguing what they are doing from a general corporate standpoint and I absolutely hate it.

Blizzard has made most of my favorite ever games and Blizzard is becoming another EA and its sad to see, its that simple, thats why I am so vocally against it, I dont like capitalism when it has no limits, and it does my head in to see so few people being able to recognize whats happening instead of just outright denying it on the basis of love for a company that is long gone, I dont know the psychology behind why they do that, thats for sure.

Blizz became an EA long ago but really why do we care about store bought mounts, because half the playerbase is going to buy it being the shills they are so its not like the mount is unique in any way or took any effort. The MoP golden dragon drove me fucking insane how obnoxious it was and how many people had it. Why would I buy that... lol so I can just be a nother statistic. I really don't get how they make money on MTX purchases, but maybe these people are just dumb and don't think about it.

[Monoxide]

Blizz became an EA long ago but really why do we care about store bought mounts, because half the playerbase is going to buy it being the shills they are so its not like the mount is unique in any way or took any effort. The MoP golden dragon drove me fucking insane how obnoxious it was and how many people had it. Why would I buy that... lol so I can just be a nother statistic. I really don't get how they make money on MTX purchases, but maybe these people are just dumb and don't think about it.

One reason someone might care is because instead of being a cool mount you can obtain in the game that you're paying $15/month to play, it's an added cost.

The biggest issue here is that it's a subscription game.

[Gorgodeus]

Blizzard was founded as a company of geeks making games for other geeks. If they can't stick to their original vision and put games first and money second, they should drop the name and call themselves Cash Grab the Company. What they're doing right now is completely fucking disrespectful to the original team that created the Warcraft IP.

Money has never been second. That is simply a myth. Blizzard has had multi-millionaire investors since day 1.

[Garymorilix]

Because Ive been playing Blizzard games since WC1 and I want to buy them because they have historically been my favorite games, and when I watch tactics that I know from the very industries ive worked in start to seep into this company then im going to talk out.

Dont bitch and dont buy from it just dosent work, whatever, you dont understand how business at this level works but okay thats fine, keep doing what you're doing.

I do understand.

If you are not the target of this type of marketing and you aint even gonna buy anything anyways then why do you care.

There is no moral high ground. This is business. Supply & demand. Maybe you should separate your feelings from actual business and see that the in game shop is a non factor from your perspective.

Your problem is that you are emotionally invested in Something you have no control over.

Shift your priorities.

[jellmoo]

Sorry but that's a bullshit cop-out. Games these days still launch in basically beta phases. Did you try Red Dead Redemption 2's online play in the first month? lol

It's not like nickel and diming people has lead to these great amazing games being released. They still release in a shit form and have to be patched to get to where the game should've been at launch.

You really think it takes a ton of effort to make NHL19 after you've done the same hockey game for 10 years?

Go look up reviews for the newest WWE game. The graphics are literally worse than last years release, and they massively cut the roster.

Go look at the new Pokemon games, same thing, they're using 2013 X/Y animations, increased the cost of the game from previous release, and cut out 400+ Pokemon and 150+ moves.

I get what you're saying, and it would be valid, but it doesn't match up with reality.

You're arguing a different point here though. You're arguing perceived value versus cost. It's a very legitimate argument and one that makes a great discussion, but it isn't quite on point with what I'm saying in regards to cost.

You're right that there are plenty of games that goes with a "bare minimum" approach in order to maximize profit. Usually this is with tentpole games like you described. They get popped out year after year with minimal changes, when maybe all they really need is a roster change. It's a money grab, absolutely. I worked on NHL in the past and you want to know where cost comes in on that one? Three weird places. 1) License (The NHL and NHLPA License costs are much higher than you'd think. 2) Art mostly related to player likeness and 3) Brute force QA simply because the yearly release schedule forces them to cram it all on the tail end.

Now, this is just one example of a game type. If you go to your example of Red dead Redemption 2, you see a completely different beast. You get a game released early likely for one of two reasons. Either they had tied it to heavy marketing campaigns and needed to get it out, or they needed to have that revenue come in on that specific quarter or they would suffer financially. It always sucks when a game comes out buggy, but the economic reality is that sometimes it happens because it has to or it risks not coming out at all.

- - - Updated - - -

VFX is one of the worst in the industry itself so thats for sure.

Well yes it absolutely is and you are absolutely right on the universal fact part. And yes they are of course doing this to maximise profits, but in essence, we are arguing the same point in a different way, you are explaining why they are doing it from an internal standpoint, while I am arguing what they are doing from a general corporate standpoint and I absolutely hate it.

Blizzard has made most of my favorite ever games and Blizzard is becoming another EA and its sad to see, its that simple, thats why I am so vocally against it, I dont like capitalism when it has no limits, and it does my head in to see so few people being able to recognize whats happening instead of just outright denying it on the basis of love for a company that is long gone, I dont know the psychology behind why they do that, thats for sure.

The really funny thing is that I agree with you for the most part, but I also look at it from the other side simply because for years things like my salary increase and bonus have been tied to company performance, regardless of where I was working. When the company does well and exceeds it's target for the quarter, I do well in return. So from my perspective, there's been financial incentive to see companies derive new sources of revenue even as I hate the practice when I see it myself.

Because of that, what I did was shift my gaming focus. I spend less time on AAA games and or things being pushed out by big publishers, and spend more time on smaller or indie games. I look at a device like the Switch as a godsend, because there are so very many quality indie games available and easily discoverable that offer amazing value for the money. I'm in my early forties and grew up as a NES kid and remember having so few options. We basically paid full price for a game, or we rented one for the weekend. Now the options really are there to support the brands and companies you want to and still have great gaming experiences. This is why I encourage people to vote with their wallet. The industry is very unlikely to change any time soon, but if enough people shift their practices, publishers will eventually notice. We may not like how they adjust, but it's worth a shot.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Because they can get away with it. Threads like these are great example of this as people flock to defend their double dipping shit practices.

Well, its not double dipping.

I don't want to pay extra so I don't. But apparently some people like it.

People will complain no matter what though. Complaints I have heard:

-Blizzard is scummy because they still have a subscription server, it should be F2P (threads and arguments without even mentioning double dipping, which isnt a good argument anyway)

-Riot is a scummy company, even though their game can be completely played for free. You can earn every champion just playing the game.

-Respawn is a scummy company because they have a seasonal battle pass IN A FREE GAME.

People just want shit for free. Its the eternal battle between consumer and supplier. Its the basic concept of capitalism. No one is forcing you to buy your 500th mount from the store. But you want it. But you're poor, so don't buy it, problem solved. At no point are these side things necessary.

- - - Updated - - -

People are 100% allowed and should be encouraged to be pissed off at Blizzard for doing tactics that try to prey on the whales for more money. That's mobile game tactics and they've always been scummy. Hell at least the mobile games actually have a reason for doing so because their game is free.

If whales want to spend their money on shit, let them. Its not some "tactic" as if they are stealing.

- - - Updated - - -

100% agree, its so SAD to see people defend them for using business tactics that are so predatory and obvious! You can literally google this stuff, everyone, go on youtube and google GDC Mobile game monetization and watch the videos there and you will see how they use the 80:20 rule and talk about whales, artificial scarcity and everything, they talk about this at public game conferences! Why are you defending Blizzard for doing this!

Do you spend money on mobile games? Yes or no?

- - - Updated - - -

And why the fuck do you care about shit you dont want to buy?

I dont buy baby products, or gluten free shit or microwaves or hookers or whatever yet I dont complain about them existing. Cuz I dont care.

Same with the i game shop. Never bought anything and I dont care it exists. I dont bitch. I can set my priorities. Do the same.

Their issue is that they clearly feel entitled to those items in the shops. They think that, if the mean old shop didn't exist, they would be getting those cosmetics or mounts or pets. That may or may not be true, but its not a logical argument, and ironically, its as greedy as the people they are denouncing.

If people didn't buy shit out of the shops, they wouldn't exist.

If people didn't buy "lives" or whatever from mobile games, "lives" wouldn't exist as a product. People are buying them, because they have money and want to spend it.

If people stopped buying Blizzard shop items, they would try to get money elsewhere. More physical merchandise. Expansion dropping quicker, and being shorter. Increased subscription costs.

I don't buy shit out of the store unless some of it goes to charity.

I don't pay anything in mobile games, unless I am impressed and having a good time. Most of the time those games have a 5$ "beginner pack," that I would buy if impressive. But that doesn't happen commonly. I do this because developers deserve some money when they make a good game in a market full of shit.

Blame the people buying this shit, not people supplying it.

[rhorle]

Wow was losing subscribers little by little after cata, to compensate for losing monthly subscribers, they offered cosmetic garbage or perks with money. Thinking of all of those allied races in BFA, I would imagine that's where blizz made their profits.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Celestial_Steed

The Celestial steed and Lil XT were added in patch 3.3.3

- - - Updated - - -

Because they can get away with it. Threads like these are great example of this as people flock to defend their double dipping shit practices.

Because there is nothing ultimately wrong with what they are doing. Who cares if a company tries to make more money that is their purpose. Blizzard isn't doing it in an over the top manner. There is nothing wrong with having a subscription, buy to play, and a cash shop. Most free to play games have all of those as well.

[Theangryone]

It's so weird, I've never been forced to buy a mount, I've never been forced to buy a token for gold, I've never been forced to buy cosmetics, I've never been forced to buy character services of any kind, and I've never been forced to buy pets. It's almost like all of these things are optional.

[rhorle]

TLDR:
Problem: System is designed to thrive on human inability to successfully boycott or resist a product/service.
Solution: Just boycott/resist product/service.

So if people are forced to keep playing because nothing else works why are you even discussing how greedy and terrible Blizzard is? You just stated the only answer is to keep playing no matter how terrible they are because voting with your wallet does nothing.

[Beefhammer]

Wow was losing subscribers little by little after cata, to compensate for losing monthly subscribers, they offered cosmetic garbage or perks with money.

Thinking of all of those allied races in BFA, I would imagine that's where blizz made their profits.

How has always loat subs, they just used to gain more faster. Also, as stated above, cosmetics came in WotLK when everything was perfect according to MMO-Champ.

- - - Updated - - -

It's so weird, I've never been forced to buy a mount, I've never been forced to buy a token for gold, I've never been forced to buy cosmetics, I've never been forced to buy character services of any kind, and I've never been forced to buy pets. It's almost like all of these things are optional.

Yup. And the theory that the mount being removed I a year is just to drive token sales is ridiculous. If that were the case and people were doing it the gold prices for tokens would plummet due to supply. I have yet to see evidence of that.

[Gimlix]

I know these aint F2P tactics.
But you are correct. Blizzard has changed and has become a joke of a company.
If you told someone 10 years ago that Blizzard would be a horrible cashcow company in 2019, they would laugh at you.

But here we are. Activision Blizzard standing next to EA as worst gaming company.

"Do you not have phones"

- - - Updated - - -

It's so weird, I've never been forced to buy a mount, I've never been forced to buy a token for gold, I've never been forced to buy cosmetics, I've never been forced to buy character services of any kind, and I've never been forced to buy pets. It's almost like all of these things are optional.

Aren't it always optional. Even in F2P or B2P games?

[CrawlFromThePit]

I'm talking about utter crap like:
-store mounts
-character boosts
-"get this now before it's too late and we arbitrarily remove it"
-purchasable cosmetics
-whale targeting
-cute fox people

I mean yeah sure it allows Activi$$ion Bill$$ard to rake in more money but it damages the integrity of the game. You'd expect to see crap like this in games like League of Legends and all of those billions of mobile "clash of clashes" clones. Not a monthly-sub based game like WoW.

Listen up, Kotick. If you want to suck $$$ out of your hapless victims then by all means do so but do it in a separate mobile game that is clearly designed to bleed the whales dry. Leave WoW alone and let us have our fantasy RPG.

Because people with no judgment waste their money on this. If you want something to complain about, complain about the idiots who justify making these marketing stuff profitable. 100% the players fault. If the community was smart, they would not buy a single item in there and Blizzard would stop doing things like this. Blizzard is not forcing anyone to buy anything in the store, it's entirely on the players themselves to know how to live.

[Garymorilix]

I work in this industry thanks Naby so I am well within my rights to care, why the hell do you care that I care?

I care because I am intelligent enough to know that in any industry there has to be people to defend consumer rights, in your world, where you just sit there and bitch about others who try to make positive changes, you would be getting screwed 10 times worse than it already is. Stop acting like the solution is to just shut up and be a good little sheep and accept whatever the corporate interests are even if it is the POLAR OPPOSITE of your own.

Your problem is that you are a complete pessimist who thinks that not caring is better than caring, you must live in one hell of a dark world. I guess you dont think democracy, voting, consumer laws are important either then right.

What the fuck are you on about? Democracy? Laws? Too much cool aid man.

If you work in this industry then you know that DEMAND creates the very situation you "hate". That's what you need to understand and be better at your job.
IF there are people who buy shit, companies will make shit.

Doesn't matter if it's gaming, music, movies, cars or fuckin action figures.

You are not saving anyone with your holy crusade because you can't change people just cuz you don't like that they like buying stuff.
In your narrow minded dictatorship of a world the only acceptable transaction is for items that you approve of. This is basically your entire argument sugar coated in "helping the industry and doing the good deeds".

There is literally nothing in the existence of a purely cosmetic (only mounts) in-game shop that could in any reality go against consumer right. You wanna throw around big words but they're too heavy for you to lift.

Maybe stop acting like a needy 3rd grader who didn't get their sparkling pony mount for free and either pay up for the service of the artists who made it or shut it.

[Garymorilix]

You are one massive child, the way you talk, typical forum warrior.

No point continuing a discussion with you because you dont even attempt, or cant actually understand why capitalism needs to have limits of else it absolutely screws the consumer, keep purchasing your sparkling pony mounts and spitting your pacifier out when anyone calls a gaming company out on their predatory tactics. BECAUSE CAPITALISM!!!!!!

You wanna battle with authority? Alrite.

As a massive child with a diploma in business I can most definitely guarantee you that capitalism neither starts nor ends with WoW's ingame mount store.

Get your head out of your ass hippy-boi and join some Bernie rallies, but at the end of the day companies are out there to make money.
Even those companies that you personally wouldn't hit with the communist banhammer but those companies you like, so they can do what they want, right?

There is certainly a limit to capitalism: like not destroying the ecosystem and shit. An in-game store that is purely optional and cosmetic is not gonna cause more harm then the fuckin diet coke production you're chugging daily cuz some theta healer told you sugar was bad.
Even "diet" this and "sugar free" that are just marketing tactics to sell you shit that is even worse for your health than the sugary products.

But hey, if something is marketed nicely and with the intent of help, it's good right?
That's why you are the superman of consumer rights. Your idea of "protection" is in nooo waaaay totalitarian and against free market practices. No. They are just "helping the little guy". Sure.

- - - Updated - - -

Ill keep it simple. DEMAND =/ LICENCE. If people turned around and said, we want Game of Thrones on Netflix, Netflix wouldnt turn around and ask for additional fees for their subscribed users to watch that. Okay that will be an extra $1.99 per episode you watch! Because they are already fucking subscribed and paying for access to everything. Why dont you fucking understand that.

That's exactly what Netflix would do, because Game of Thrones is an HBO show. Or something very similar at least.
I'm glad your only example proves you wrong right at the get go.