[UK] General Election 2019

[mojojojo202]

Not at all. It's an expression of disgust and contempt at a system that is comprehensively failing.

The only reason for me to vote Lib Dem / Green / Labour, whoever would be to increase their share of the national vote. It will have no bearing on the inevitable election of a Tory MP in my constituency.

Why shouldn't I spoil my vote?

Same old, same old from a supporter of one of the two major parties who are favoured by FPTP

Edit...



Whereas, the above is a more sensible assessment of the situation.

You might intend it as that, but that isn't what is being heard.

Spoiled ballots are an after thought, a minor inconvenience of a 100 or so ballots that can't be counted for anyone of literally dozens of reasons.

Using spoiled ballots as a protest, at least on an individual level, is utterly pointless because it will be drowned out by the noise of every other reason a ballot might be rejected during counting.

If you could get a lot and I'm talking at least 10% of a constituency to spoil ballots then someone might pay attention.

I'd also fundamentally disagree that vote spoiling is an expression of contempt for the system because you are fundamentally, on some level engaging with the system. The ultimate show of contempt for a participatory system is, of course, to not participate.

Are you making an assumption I support the major parties? You genuinely couldn't be more wrong.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Johnson's Conservatives see lead over Labour narrow to 7 points - ICM poll
Support for the Conservatives fell one point to 41%, while the Labour Party was up two points on 34%. The pro-European Union Liberal Democrats were unchanged on 13% while the Brexit Party was down one point on 4%.

And every cautious act that the Tories take whittles that lead down some more. Have a manifesto that tries desparately not to be controversial in any way? Avoid Boris from speaking to anything but picked crowds as much as possible? Keep JRM in his coffin for fear of scaring the oiks? It all looks like cowardice, and all of it leaves a vacuum for Corbyn to walk into and stake out his position on all the things that matter to people in this country. The NHS, housing, job security, fair benefits, investment.

Boris doesn't dare debate on the merits of their differing visions for this country. Because while Corbyn and Labour have one that resonates with the voters, Boris only has the reality of what his Brexit is being set up to do. Cut a deal with the US that benefits the US. Cut labour laws and regulations to benefit the billionaires. Cut safety nets so that money can be spent on what's important; land-owners, landlords and billionaires. 90% of the country will be fucked by this approach, and even the bulk of the remaining 10% are likely to be neutral at best. So Boris instead tries to fill the vacuum of his lack of vision with lies; about how many hospitals he plans to build, how many nurses he plans to recruit. How many houses he will build. How many new police officers he will hire.

But the truth is starting to come out (despite the BBCs best efforts). The nurse numbers are down because of the Tories. So are the police. They promised to build houses before, and have failed miserably. They have killed literally thousands of people with their unnecessarily cruel benefits system. They promised that austerity would sort of the defecit, then when it didn't THEY DID IT SOME MORE ANYWAY. They introduced Brexit to fix their own party, regardless of what damage it would do to the country, and they've stuck with it regardless, lurching their party to the right in the process. Because staying in power is more important than the country, or the people in it.

I've never been a naturally optimistic person, and I curse daily that I've passed that on to my son. But I still hold out hope that enough people will recognise this version of the Tory party as the lightweight sociopathic scum that they are. And kick them out in a way that not only takes power away from them but also rips their party apart in a final, cataclysmic way. Maybe Corbyn and Labour will fail. Maybe their vision of the country is unachievable. But I'd rather fail trying to do the right thing for everyone in this country, than sit back and see it sink into an extension of the failures that we see over the pond. For my sake, and more importantly for those that come after me.

[CostinR]

Johnson's Conservatives see lead over Labour narrow to 7 points - ICM poll
Support for the Conservatives fell one point to 41%, while the Labour Party was up two points on 34%. The pro-European Union Liberal Democrats were unchanged on 13% while the Brexit Party was down one point on 4%.

One poll does not make an election, not that losing by 7% isn't losing anyway.

There's roughly two weeks before the election, the chance of anything changing in terms of the expected result of a tory majority is very low unless you get a major scandal propping up. The only question is how big of a majority it will be.

[PC2]

Yeesh, why is it that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.

[Jessicka]

Yeesh, why is that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.

Because the opposition to even the moderate left, is the extreme right of the Tory party.

It’s supported by mass media, a supposedly impartial state media, and just lies and lies unchallenged.

There’s nothing there to sympathise or compromise with.

[CostinR]

Eh, the scenario where the Tories win but do not get a majority is still not unlikely.

This isn't 2017 where Theresa May was that much of an idiot as to embrace fox hunting. Like really that was quite a superb case of a legendary failure. She just couldn't help herself.

[dribbles]

Yeesh, why is that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.

Forgive them, it's a cry for help. Captain Corbyn and the good ship Labour is sinking...

Labour could replace Jeremy Corbyn to secure pact with other parties

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...t-deal-senior/

[Huehuecoyotl]

Forgive them, it's a cry for help. Captain Corbyn and the good ship Labour is sinking...

Labour could replace Jeremy Corbyn to secure pact with other parties

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...t-deal-senior/

I will translate for anyone that needs it - "The Torygraph is happy to report another Blairite attempt to get Corbyn out of the position of Labour leader. We are literally terrified of the prospect of this man gaining power, and people seeing that his policies will actually make life better for many people. This would be bad for billionaires. I mean Business. Bad for Business. Please pay no mind to the man behind the curtain".

Lets see where we sit in a couple of weeks dribbles. Remember, anything other than a solid majority and your Brexit dream dies. If anyone is starting to panic, it's you.

[dribbles]

I will translate for anyone that needs it - "The Torygraph is happy to report another Blairite attempt to get Corbyn out of the position of Labour leader. We are literally terrified of the prospect of this man gaining power, and people seeing that his policies will actually make life better for many people. This would be bad for billionaires. I mean Business. Bad for Business. Please pay no mind to the man behind the curtain".

Lets see where we sit in a couple of weeks dribbles. Remember, anything other than a solid majority and your Brexit dream dies. If anyone is starting to panic, it's you.

You are hoping for history to repeat itself? I don't see it in the tea leaves, Boris is nothing like as bad or ineffective campaigner as Theresa May. But good luck to you, at this point I'm not worried.

This is not going to happen this time around...

[Shadowmelded]

the current leaders of Labour are the same dusty old white men that lead to the power cuts and collapses of our nationalised industry's the last time round.

Nationalisation wasn't the cause of power cuts. The 70s energy crisis coupled with a Tory government imposing wage caps led to industrial action.

1964 to 1977 was Labour dominated bar a single year, 1970.

This is incorrect. I know the chart on wikipedia makes it appear to be correct but the Heath Government was in office from 1970 to 1974. Labour were in power from 74 to 79 under Wilson and later Callaghan.

What is clear is that our goverment has a very bad track record with running nationalised industry's.

Also not really accurate. There was no need to privatise Royal Mail nor BT and last I checked, the NHS, while facing a lot of issues (funnily enough, also related to privatisation) is still holding up, despite the best efforts of the Tories.

[Theodarzna]

Yeesh, why is that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.

Labour is unsure if its a Working Class oriented political party or merely an agent of Neo-Liberal of Brussels Technocrats; but more likable than Liberal Democrats. Corbyn is a likable guy but I feel like his soul is too pure for a party full of fakes, Blairites, and other frauds.

[Theodarzna]

We want an EU that serves the people, I am not sure why people find this so difficult to understand.

Given how it doesn't do that, and its anti-Democratic nature, and what interests such an institution is bound to serve, why you'd ever be foolish enough to think that was going to happen is beyond me.

[Jessicka]

Given how it doesn't do that, and its anti-Democratic nature, and what interests such an institution is bound to serve, why you'd ever be foolish enough to think that was going to happen is beyond me.

It’s more democratic than our own parliament. Indeed it’s more left wing than our own Parliament. Different countries have different axes, and most of Europe is more to the left than the UK, Hungary and Poland.

We’re part of the problem.

[CostinR]

It’s more democratic than our own parliament.

Uhm. No it really isn't.

I understand the frustration with the current British parliament and the overall state of the system but don't give credit to the EU when there's very little democracy on a EU level. So many things get decided behind closed doors with very little input from the voting public, and the EU parliament as in our elected representatives, have very little say in the matter.

For instance take the EU copyright directive, a very rare case where there was some genuine public debate and discussion on an issue. What ultimately happened is that the representatives of the EU countries, as in the EU Council, met behind closed doors and cut a deal. France, the main backer of the directive, basically agreed to support Nord Stream 2 in exchange for Germany supporting the Copyright Directive. Then the deal was forced onto the EU parliament. Great experiment in democracy there.

Just keep in mind this is a GOOD case where it was debated and discussed by parliament. For the most part the EU parliament is made up a bunch of 2nd rate politicians baring radicals like Le Pen, those 2nd rate politicians are only going to vote the way they are told to by their parties back home.

Mind I support not only the EU but a European State, a proper one, but what's happening right now is more along the lines of an oligarchy then a democracy.

[Monster Hunter]

Nationalisation wasn't the cause of power cuts. The 70s energy crisis coupled with a Tory government imposing wage caps led to industrial action.



This is incorrect. I know the chart on wikipedia makes it appear to be correct but the Heath Government was in office from 1970 to 1974. Labour were in power from 74 to 79 under Wilson and later Callaghan.



Also not really accurate. There was no need to privatise Royal Mail nor BT and last I checked, the NHS, while facing a lot of issues (funnily enough, also related to privatisation) is still holding up, despite the best efforts of the Tories.

1964 to 1970 were still a Labour goverment under Wilson.
And then again from 1974 to 1976.

His time in office was dogged by a fight to avoid devaluing the pound, which he lost, implimenting austerity and fighting trade union strikes and other industrial action, notably the six week strike by the national Union of seamen.

Wilson introduced the industrial relations act 1971 in an attempt to rain in the unions but was ultimate forced to repeal it in 1974, much of that act would go on to form the basis of thatchers efforts breaking the unions.

Wilson was secretly anti nationalisation as many in labout had become by then and clause 4 was a point of contention within the party, ultimately he placated the far left of the party by nationalising the steel industry but from there didn't engage with clause 4 for the rest of his leadership.

What can be taken from the period is that rather than make our country strong, nationalisation coupled with strong unions actualy made us incredibly weak during crisis like the energy crisis, as the energy crisis bit down and action needed to be taken then unions bit back and made the situation much worse, eventualy leading to the 3 day week.

Unions of the power that skargill had are not something we ever want to return to.

[Jessicka]

You don’t seem to have acknowledged what the Tories did in those 4 years to make a bad situation so much worse.

[Monster Hunter]

Only half of those who intend to vote Lib Dem say the party “definitely” has their vote

I have to say, I wonder what the chances are that when it comes to the polls due to strategic voting, Lib Dem collapses and a lot of those voters end up voting Labour just to keep the Tories out.

Alot of people don't like corbyn just as much as they don't like the torys.

For alot of people Corbyn is brexit by another name, and his Lexit is potentially just as economically risky as no deal, he's no ally of remain, and I really don't fancy seeing what happens to the economy with brexit + heavy borrowing + nationalisation + stronger unions. That's far to much risk in a short space of time.

Lib Dems represent the sensible left wing vote and it showd in the local elections.

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You don’t seem to have acknowledged what the Tories did in those 4 years to make a bad situation so much worse.

Well the torys caused the trade defect between Attlee and Wilson.

But there's not much point in pointing out what the torys did as such things get repeated ad nausium, and the point of the conversation is that Labour are no better and have never been much better than torys once they get power.

[Monster Hunter]

"We will champion freedom of
expression and tolerance, both in the UK and overseas. To support free speech, we will repeal section 40 of the Crime
and Courts Act 2014, which seeks to coerce the press."

It's not exactly the 2003 communications act, but it's still a good step.

If you're serious then you legitimately have no idea what fascism actually is.

The 2003 communications act was well intentioned but poorly written. It's become way to easy to abuse, I'm not a fan of laws the require interpretation.

I advocate for repeal and replace not just repeal.

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Lexit is obviously preferable to Brexit for a pro-european in any sane universe.
The borrowing the Tories announced is greater than that Labour announced.
The industries that Labour wants to nationalize are ones which were profitably under nationalization and not now. It is a sensible business investment.
Unions barely exist.

Nothing you are saying makes any sense at all. Even the newspapers don't twist the truth this badly.

Is it fuck.

Remain is the only preferable option. No ifs, no buts, no half measures.

Lexiteers can sink with the brexiteers like the buddy's they are. Unlike the message you fucks give out, remain means only one thing.

Nice to see you keep an account for more than one day though, mods must be on holiday.

[Monster Hunter]

Corbyn's Labour has committed to a referendum with revoking A50 as an option. A minority government under Corbyn is the only realistic outcome that could stop Brexit or at least offer a soft Brexit; a Tory minority government would be with the Brexit Party and lead to a hard Brexit and a Tory majority government is likely to lead to a hard Brexit as well, if only by refusing to extend the transition period. If your focus on the next elections if the Brexit issue as a voter, then imo you should vote strategically as best as possible against the Tories. And I assume that in a majority of of constituencies, that means voting for Labour. Labour is extremely unlikely to win a majority so Corbyn's plans will remain plans; the broad coalition he will have to establish to get a majority will likely withdraw their support as soon as the Brexit drama is over and will restrain most of his plans.

Yes but it needs a large contingent of lib Dems to ensure that corbyn has to be honest, and also scrap nationalisation and also not just push through his own brexit deal. I, like alot of people don't trust corbyn, especially on brexit, thus we need a very strong lib dem pressance in a coalition to guarentee remain as best as possible.

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Again though, Labour has committed to a referendum. Labour is not likely to get a majority at all; the only probable scenario other than a clear Tory win is a Tory minority that fails to make a government and then a Corbyn minority government with confidence supply or an outright coalition with SNP, Lib Dems and probably Plaid. So a referendum is what you are getting. Lib Dems are not going to win the elections. If Brexit happens under labour it will happen because the referendum gets reaffirmed by the population and I am sorry but then that's democracy.

It took momentum basicly twisting his arm off to just get a promise on a 2nd ref, Corbyn can't be trusted to honour that unless he's held to ransom by the libdems and he's already said he will not campaign for either side, so we need a very strong LibDem pressance to champion remain lest we be left with a wet labour barely making an effort to stay against a unified brexiteer block.

[Monster Hunter]

Your focus would still need to be that the Tories don't win an outright majority.

That will happen if centrist voters arn't persuaded to vote left of center.

No tory voter will ever vote for such a radical Labour manifesto, and many moderate left wing and liberals also won't vote for current Labour. Voting Labour out side of Labour holds is a wasted vote in a swing seat as they arn't popular enough to beat the torys in those seats and are likly to lose some seats the BXP in heavy leave areas.

The tactical thing to vote in a swing seat is LibDem to avoid a tory majority not Labour.