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Voters
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  • Conservative

    35 37.63%
  • Labour

    35 37.63%
  • SNP

    5 5.38%
  • Liberal Democrat

    7 7.53%
  • DUP

    0 0%
  • Sinn Fein

    1 1.08%
  • Plaid Cymru

    1 1.08%
  • Green

    1 1.08%
  • Independent

    1 1.08%
  • Spoil vote

    2 2.15%
  • Abstain

    2 2.15%
  • Other

    3 3.23%
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  1. #61
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, of course. Those nasty remainer MPs held his arm up behind his back until he did as he was told.

    Johnson will go back on his word at the end of 2020 just as easily as all the other times he has gone back on what he has said but it will, of course, be all someone else's fault and you and your fellow Brexiters will be, once again, moaning that Parliament stood in the way of a clean (or whatever) Brexit.
    They did far more than that, how quickly, easily and conveniently you forget. Contempt of parliament with him sent to the tower, contempt of court and imprisonment as a result amongst many other quite heinous penalties.

    Those nasty remainer MPs won't be able to this time though will they, P45's all round for them as the electorate drain the swamp.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    They did far more than that, how quickly, easily and conveniently you forget. Contempt of parliament with him sent to the tower, contempt of court and imprisonment as a result amongst many other quite heinous penalties.

    Those nasty remainer MPs won't be able to this time though will they, P45's all round for them as the electorate drain the swamp.
    It's a possibility that there will be less of those nasty remainers in the next parliament but not every MP who is supportive of Johnson's deal will be in favour of no-deal.

    Johnson is a proven serial liar and he is telling the Brexiters what they want to hear but look on the bright side at least he's not fleecing them for £25 whilst lying to them.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Not at all. It's an expression of disgust and contempt at a system that is comprehensively failing.

    The only reason for me to vote Lib Dem / Green / Labour, whoever would be to increase their share of the national vote. It will have no bearing on the inevitable election of a Tory MP in my constituency.

    Why shouldn't I spoil my vote?

    Same old, same old from a supporter of one of the two major parties who are favoured by FPTP

    Edit...



    Whereas, the above is a more sensible assessment of the situation.
    You might intend it as that, but that isn't what is being heard.

    Spoiled ballots are an after thought, a minor inconvenience of a 100 or so ballots that can't be counted for anyone of literally dozens of reasons.

    Using spoiled ballots as a protest, at least on an individual level, is utterly pointless because it will be drowned out by the noise of every other reason a ballot might be rejected during counting.

    If you could get a lot and I'm talking at least 10% of a constituency to spoil ballots then someone might pay attention.

    I'd also fundamentally disagree that vote spoiling is an expression of contempt for the system because you are fundamentally, on some level engaging with the system. The ultimate show of contempt for a participatory system is, of course, to not participate.

    Are you making an assumption I support the major parties? You genuinely couldn't be more wrong.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The Metro reports the results of a Survation poll that shows that Labour is closing the gap on the Tories.



    https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/25/tory-...unch-11214646/

    It will be interesting to see if other polls show similar results and whether this the start of a swing towards Labour - like 2017 - or if the Cons can hang on to their lead.

    Johnson's Conservatives see lead over Labour narrow to 7 points - ICM poll

    Support for the Conservatives fell one point to 41%, while the Labour Party was up two points on 34%. The pro-European Union Liberal Democrats were unchanged on 13% while the Brexit Party was down one point on 4%.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post

    Johnson's Conservatives see lead over Labour narrow to 7 points - ICM poll

    Support for the Conservatives fell one point to 41%, while the Labour Party was up two points on 34%. The pro-European Union Liberal Democrats were unchanged on 13% while the Brexit Party was down one point on 4%.
    And every cautious act that the Tories take whittles that lead down some more. Have a manifesto that tries desparately not to be controversial in any way? Avoid Boris from speaking to anything but picked crowds as much as possible? Keep JRM in his coffin for fear of scaring the oiks? It all looks like cowardice, and all of it leaves a vacuum for Corbyn to walk into and stake out his position on all the things that matter to people in this country. The NHS, housing, job security, fair benefits, investment.

    Boris doesn't dare debate on the merits of their differing visions for this country. Because while Corbyn and Labour have one that resonates with the voters, Boris only has the reality of what his Brexit is being set up to do. Cut a deal with the US that benefits the US. Cut labour laws and regulations to benefit the billionaires. Cut safety nets so that money can be spent on what's important; land-owners, landlords and billionaires. 90% of the country will be fucked by this approach, and even the bulk of the remaining 10% are likely to be neutral at best. So Boris instead tries to fill the vacuum of his lack of vision with lies; about how many hospitals he plans to build, how many nurses he plans to recruit. How many houses he will build. How many new police officers he will hire.

    But the truth is starting to come out (despite the BBCs best efforts). The nurse numbers are down because of the Tories. So are the police. They promised to build houses before, and have failed miserably. They have killed literally thousands of people with their unnecessarily cruel benefits system. They promised that austerity would sort of the defecit, then when it didn't THEY DID IT SOME MORE ANYWAY. They introduced Brexit to fix their own party, regardless of what damage it would do to the country, and they've stuck with it regardless, lurching their party to the right in the process. Because staying in power is more important than the country, or the people in it.

    I've never been a naturally optimistic person, and I curse daily that I've passed that on to my son. But I still hold out hope that enough people will recognise this version of the Tory party as the lightweight sociopathic scum that they are. And kick them out in a way that not only takes power away from them but also rips their party apart in a final, cataclysmic way. Maybe Corbyn and Labour will fail. Maybe their vision of the country is unachievable. But I'd rather fail trying to do the right thing for everyone in this country, than sit back and see it sink into an extension of the failures that we see over the pond. For my sake, and more importantly for those that come after me.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post

    Johnson's Conservatives see lead over Labour narrow to 7 points - ICM poll

    Support for the Conservatives fell one point to 41%, while the Labour Party was up two points on 34%. The pro-European Union Liberal Democrats were unchanged on 13% while the Brexit Party was down one point on 4%.
    One poll does not make an election, not that losing by 7% isn't losing anyway.

    There's roughly two weeks before the election, the chance of anything changing in terms of the expected result of a tory majority is very low unless you get a major scandal propping up. The only question is how big of a majority it will be.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

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  7. #67
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Yeesh, why is it that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.
    Last edited by PC2; 2019-11-26 at 01:39 AM.
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  8. #68
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yeesh, why is that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.
    Because the opposition to even the moderate left, is the extreme right of the Tory party.

    It’s supported by mass media, a supposedly impartial state media, and just lies and lies unchallenged.

    There’s nothing there to sympathise or compromise with.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    One poll does not make an election, not that losing by 7% isn't losing anyway.

    There's roughly two weeks before the election, the chance of anything changing in terms of the expected result of a tory majority is very low unless you get a major scandal propping up. The only question is how big of a majority it will be.
    Eh, the scenario where the Tories win but do not get a majority is still not unlikely.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Eh, the scenario where the Tories win but do not get a majority is still not unlikely.
    This isn't 2017 where Theresa May was that much of an idiot as to embrace fox hunting. Like really that was quite a superb case of a legendary failure. She just couldn't help herself.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

    Retired <Dreamstate> Gehennas

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    "We will champion freedom of
    expression and tolerance, both in the UK and overseas. To support free speech, we will repeal section 40 of the Crime
    and Courts Act 2014, which seeks to coerce the press."

    It's not exactly the 2003 communications act, but it's still a good step.

    If you're serious then you legitimately have no idea what fascism actually is.
    The only remark I have to that is... the fact that BJ and the current Tory leadership have been caught lying and bullshitting so consistently now that it would require a miracle for anyone informed to actually believe a single word of what is written in that manifesto. It's just a whole bunch of empty promises and the same old tired lies as always. Lies shouldn't be a reason to vote for anyone.

  12. #72
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yeesh, why is that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.
    Forgive them, it's a cry for help. Captain Corbyn and the good ship Labour is sinking...

    Labour could replace Jeremy Corbyn to secure pact with other parties

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...t-deal-senior/

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Forgive them, it's a cry for help. Captain Corbyn and the good ship Labour is sinking...

    Labour could replace Jeremy Corbyn to secure pact with other parties

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...t-deal-senior/
    I will translate for anyone that needs it - "The Torygraph is happy to report another Blairite attempt to get Corbyn out of the position of Labour leader. We are literally terrified of the prospect of this man gaining power, and people seeing that his policies will actually make life better for many people. This would be bad for billionaires. I mean Business. Bad for Business. Please pay no mind to the man behind the curtain".

    Lets see where we sit in a couple of weeks dribbles. Remember, anything other than a solid majority and your Brexit dream dies. If anyone is starting to panic, it's you.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  14. #74
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    I will translate for anyone that needs it - "The Torygraph is happy to report another Blairite attempt to get Corbyn out of the position of Labour leader. We are literally terrified of the prospect of this man gaining power, and people seeing that his policies will actually make life better for many people. This would be bad for billionaires. I mean Business. Bad for Business. Please pay no mind to the man behind the curtain".

    Lets see where we sit in a couple of weeks dribbles. Remember, anything other than a solid majority and your Brexit dream dies. If anyone is starting to panic, it's you.
    You are hoping for history to repeat itself? I don't see it in the tea leaves, Boris is nothing like as bad or ineffective campaigner as Theresa May. But good luck to you, at this point I'm not worried.

    This is not going to happen this time around...


  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    the current leaders of Labour are the same dusty old white men that lead to the power cuts and collapses of our nationalised industry's the last time round.
    Nationalisation wasn't the cause of power cuts. The 70s energy crisis coupled with a Tory government imposing wage caps led to industrial action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    1964 to 1977 was Labour dominated bar a single year, 1970.
    This is incorrect. I know the chart on wikipedia makes it appear to be correct but the Heath Government was in office from 1970 to 1974. Labour were in power from 74 to 79 under Wilson and later Callaghan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    What is clear is that our goverment has a very bad track record with running nationalised industry's.
    Also not really accurate. There was no need to privatise Royal Mail nor BT and last I checked, the NHS, while facing a lot of issues (funnily enough, also related to privatisation) is still holding up, despite the best efforts of the Tories.

  16. #76
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yeesh, why is that among all the parties in Western countries the UK Labour voters come off as the most angry... I don't get it.
    Labour is unsure if its a Working Class oriented political party or merely an agent of Neo-Liberal of Brussels Technocrats; but more likable than Liberal Democrats. Corbyn is a likable guy but I feel like his soul is too pure for a party full of fakes, Blairites, and other frauds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет - Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics. Ashley Frawley and Patrick Deneen are BEA

  17. #77
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vantisara View Post
    We want an EU that serves the people, I am not sure why people find this so difficult to understand.
    Given how it doesn't do that, and its anti-Democratic nature, and what interests such an institution is bound to serve, why you'd ever be foolish enough to think that was going to happen is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет - Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics. Ashley Frawley and Patrick Deneen are BEA

  18. #78
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Given how it doesn't do that, and its anti-Democratic nature, and what interests such an institution is bound to serve, why you'd ever be foolish enough to think that was going to happen is beyond me.
    It’s more democratic than our own parliament. Indeed it’s more left wing than our own Parliament. Different countries have different axes, and most of Europe is more to the left than the UK, Hungary and Poland.

    We’re part of the problem.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It’s more democratic than our own parliament.
    Uhm. No it really isn't.

    I understand the frustration with the current British parliament and the overall state of the system but don't give credit to the EU when there's very little democracy on a EU level. So many things get decided behind closed doors with very little input from the voting public, and the EU parliament as in our elected representatives, have very little say in the matter.

    For instance take the EU copyright directive, a very rare case where there was some genuine public debate and discussion on an issue. What ultimately happened is that the representatives of the EU countries, as in the EU Council, met behind closed doors and cut a deal. France, the main backer of the directive, basically agreed to support Nord Stream 2 in exchange for Germany supporting the Copyright Directive. Then the deal was forced onto the EU parliament. Great experiment in democracy there.

    Just keep in mind this is a GOOD case where it was debated and discussed by parliament. For the most part the EU parliament is made up a bunch of 2nd rate politicians baring radicals like Le Pen, those 2nd rate politicians are only going to vote the way they are told to by their parties back home.

    Mind I support not only the EU but a European State, a proper one, but what's happening right now is more along the lines of an oligarchy then a democracy.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

    Retired <Dreamstate> Gehennas

  20. #80
    But the EU Council is ALSO elected directly. Every EU state is a democracy and the EU council is simply the governments of the member states. At worst you could suggest that because it is the governments instead of the parliaments of the members, the EU council is majoritarian over democratic, which is still better than anything a country with a multi-party system under FPTP can claim (where a plurality, NOT even a majority, rules). The Commission itself is also affirmed by the Parliament and the Parliament can and has taken down an entire Commission in the past and can refuse to confirm any proposal made by the Council.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2019-11-26 at 10:09 AM.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

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