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Voters
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  • Conservative

    35 37.63%
  • Labour

    35 37.63%
  • SNP

    5 5.38%
  • Liberal Democrat

    7 7.53%
  • DUP

    0 0%
  • Sinn Fein

    1 1.08%
  • Plaid Cymru

    1 1.08%
  • Green

    1 1.08%
  • Independent

    1 1.08%
  • Spoil vote

    2 2.15%
  • Abstain

    2 2.15%
  • Other

    3 3.23%
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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    You do know they guy called him self a Marxist a few pages back.

    Those guys will happily lose every single election than have to give up a single step towards the political center.

    And don't seem to see any moral problem with handing the right wing victory after victory just so that can maintain some pissy ideological purty no one gives a fuck about but them selves.

    Wingers like him anger me so much because pandering to them leads to this shit.
    One word seems to have been missing from the Labour leadership's vocabulary: pragmatism. Corbyn, McDonnell, they thought their Red Revolution was finally within their grasp and they went all in with their manifesto. And the British public, who fall overwhelmingly between the boundaries of soft left and soft right, weren't having any of it. And Corbyn certainly wasn't the right man to sell it to them.

    I hope their 'period of reflection' ultimately makes the party electable again.

  2. #1002
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    Because there are many, many people did vote based upon misinformation, not beng informed , being outright racist or xeno-phobis and well being plainly thick ad not understanding what they were voting for beyond "leave the eu" or how such a thing would affect us.

    This isn't a victory, if anything you've vindicated their remarks of being thick, ignorant etc with this last statement. if you truly believe any of that.
    You realize that this part isn't a real argument, right? Focusing on Brexit voters as people and not their arguments is ad hominem and should be avoided.
    -------
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    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  3. #1003
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    A few counter-points:
    1. The remain vote was divided over several parties.
    2. Nobody knows for certain what sort of Brexit the Tories will end up delivering. People make assumptions based on the promises made by politicians, but....... campaign promises and actually delivering those promises when the axe of reality is hanging above your head are two worlds apart. The Tories might not get enough pro-Brexit MPs together within their own party.
    3. As a European I am sort of in a win/win position, because there are no projections in which the UK wont end up shooting itself in the foot and in which the EU won't end up galvanized. Large europhile projects will no longer be vetoed by the UK: EU armies, more centralization etc.
    1. It was, though so was the Brexit vote in some areas too. Yvette Cooper would have lost her seat if the Brexit party had elected not to stand in it, for example. But, yeah, I think with the SNP, Lib(NotSo)Dems and non-committal Labour party all fighting for the Remainer vote, they were probably more divided.

    2. This is true. I think Boris' deal isn't great, to be honest. But it is the only iteration of Brexit that Leavers credibly have left and I believe it is paramount that the largest democratic mandate in British history be respected. A small part of me is being overly hopeful and wishing Boris would use his strong mandate now to put "No Deal" back on the table to pressure for something better from the EU, but I think he like so many others is bored of the whole thing now and just want to put it behind them. Far from ideal, but again, the best that can be hoped for unfortunately. I'm painfully aware he was a pretty non-committal Leaver from the beginning, but I think he's shrewd enough to realise that if he doesn't get us out now, he and the Conservative party are finished.

    3. I'm happy that we can perhaps finally get out of the way if the rest of the Union is happy with movements towards further federalisation. Just because Britain voted to leave the EU, doesn't mean that the two bodies must suddenly become enemies. But, I wouldn't be so sure that every member state will be pulled further into the project, I imagine that nations like Italy, Denmark and Greece will be watching what happens to the UK in the next few years very carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    You claime that being against brexit is basically anti-thesis to democracy by claiming the "remoaner mps" were attempting to undermine democracy, there is more to democracy than most votes wins. Especially when the democratic process of said campaign was massively undermined in the first place
    Not liking Brexit doesn't inherently make you anti-democratic. However, I would argue that actively trying to thwart the largest democratic mandate in our nation's history does make you an anti-democrat.

    If Corbyn had won last night, I would be anxious, angry and disappointed, but I would not be attempting to oust him from No. 10 and I would not be pushing for another election next week to "try again to see if the people had changed their minds".

    Also, there was dodgy shit happening on both sides of the referendum campaign, I won't fight you on that. But, regardless, if we are to give the demos the credit I believe they deserve, the outcome of that referendum must be respected.
    Last edited by Thalassian Bob; 2019-12-13 at 04:12 PM.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And I fully support them taking matters into their own hands to make sure it doesn't happen next time.
    But burning down the offices of the BBC, etc, is frowned upon in British society..
    Kiddo, your dick is too limp to trow a molatov at the BBC offices. You commies are so bad at sounding tough.
    You really need a better PR dept comrade.

  5. #1005
    Boris is still farther left than most US democrats, his policies you could run as a a center left candidate and be acceptable, in fact im kind of glad he won because the fact that hes the center and has full control of the conservative party means the actual identitarian/ethnonationalist wing of conservatism is dead in britain, no more ukip and brexit creating alternative narratives, also his immigration policy while further right than EU standards is still to the left of obamas administration. I think people get caught up in sound bites like "britains trump!" rather than actual governance/policy. oh and corbyn was a loony toon, and in fact i compare him more to trump because corbyn was anti nato- very weak on russia, and when he lost alot of his supporters are now shouting "fake news"
    Last edited by arandomuser; 2019-12-13 at 04:10 PM.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    We all know the reason why Labour lost.
    And I fully support them taking matters into their own hands to make sure it doesn't happen next time.
    But burning down the offices of the BBC, etc, is frowned upon in British society.
    Do you actually believe this kind of thing or are you satirising the mindset of those Corbynites who are responsible for Labour's enormous defeat?

  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    You realize that this part isn't a real argument, right? Focusing on Brexit voters as people and not their arguments is ad hominem and should be avoided.
    Coming from an area that voted heavily in favour of leave, i can tell you that the ajority of people when asked about leave simply cannot come up with a credible argument as to why they vote leave other than parroting misinformation, outright lies or some kid of racist/xenophobic personal opinion.

    Their arguments are what i judge people by, if someone actually believes corbyn is a terrorist sympathise, marxist, anti-semite it really does point towards them being ignorant or thick, as that is nothing more than smear.

    Also, there was dodgy shit happening on both sides of the referendum campaign, I won't fight you on that. But, regardless, if we are to give the demos the credit I believe they deserve, the outcome of that referendum must be respected.
    Yes there was dodgy shit on both sides, which is why i said the campaign itself, also how can you honour an advisory on how the government should proceed if the information offered to the electorate to form a vote isn't truthful and accurate. How if the public at large are supposed to rely on the information given by these campaigns in order to inform their decision to vote can they make an informed vote if the information is inaccurate or riddled with mistruths.

    Actual democracy allows for us to say wait hang on a moment you weren't given accurate information we can't move ahead with this because your decision isn't neccessisarily informed. It's less about people changing their minds and peopel havign voted because they were misled. if you took a vote amongst a group of people to eat at a restaurant being told that you would be able to eat there as they cater to people with allergies which you suffer. would you be happy to sit down and eat at said restaurant as a group because the majority voted if it turned out that the allergen-catering information was infact a lie?

    I doubt and whilst borderig on reductio ad absurdum, it is nonetheless a valid comparison.

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    2. This is true. I think Boris' deal isn't great, to be honest. But it is the only iteration of Brexit that Leavers credibly have left and I believe it is paramount that the largest democratic mandate in British history be respected. A small part of me is being overly hopeful and wishing Boris would use his strong mandate now to put "No Deal" back on the table to pressure for something better from the EU, but I think he like so many others is bored of the whole thing now and just want to put it behind them. Far from ideal, but again, the best that can be hoped for unfortunately. I'm painfully aware he was a pretty non-committal Leaver from the beginning, but I think he's shrewd enough to realise that if he doesn't get us out now, he and the Conservative party are finished.
    You understand the last time BoJo put No Deal on the table all he did was concede NI to the EU so that they would change some words in the non binding PD right? But sure, I can't wait to see what else he can give away to the EU for virtually nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    3. I'm happy that we can perhaps finally get out of the way if the rest of the Union is happy with movements towards further federalisation. Just because Britain voted to leave the EU, doesn't mean that the two bodies must suddenly become enemies. But, I wouldn't be so sure that every member state will be pulled further into the project, I imagine that nations like Italy, Denmark and Greece will be watching what happens to the UK in the next few years very carefully.
    Didn't they do that already and decide that leaving the EU was a terrible idea then dropped it as a talking point?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Not liking Brexit doesn't inherently make you anti-democratic. However, I would argue that actively trying to thwart the largest democratic mandate in our nation's history does make you an anti-democrat.
    Representative Democracy whereby you vote someone in who's job it is to be better informed than you and then make decisions on your behalf is anti democratic. Got it! Lets rule by referenda instead, it's going so well so far.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Also, there was dodgy shit happening on both sides of the referendum campaign, I won't fight you on that. But, regardless, if we are to give the demos the credit I believe they deserve, the outcome of that referendum must be respected.
    Labour's position was to honour the referendum by giving you a vote on the actual deal we would be getting. Surely that's a more logical position than mindlessly implementing a result with absolutely no clue what it holds for the future of the country. I'm waiting for you to ask me about the demos btw, I work with them shoulder to shoulder every day, let me enlighten you as to the respect you should have for their views on this election and what they think will happen once they Brexit. I have a feeling that "credit" you think you owe them might evaporate.

  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    Boris is still farther left than most US democrats, his policies you could run as a a center left candidate and be acceptable, in fact im kind of glad he won because the fact that hes the center and has full control of the conservative party means the actual identitarian/ethnonationalist wing of conservatism is dead in britain, no more ukip and brexit creating alternative narratives, also his immigration policy while further right than EU standards is still to the left of obamas administration. I think people get caught up in sound bites like "britains trump!" rather than actual governance/policy.
    Oh 100%. I've been saying this everywhere for a while but it's been falling on deaf ears amongst the propaganda. The only things he has in common with Trump are the populism, mad hair and habit of putting his foot in his mouth. Boris has always been more moderate leaning than the other Tories, and had a certain amount of cross-party appeal before Brexit. That's how he became Mayor of London after all.

    The left-wing press (and entire facebook-twitter bubble) have been making him out to be a racist homophobic far-right fascist figure based on 10-20 year quotes, mostly out of context. Even his "Islamophobia", If the worst he's done is say that people in burqas look like postboxes... in an article defending peoples right to wear burqas.. that doesn't exactly make him Hitler.

    here's another example -
    If you look at the "tank-top wearing bum-boys" comment - Yes it was pretty homophobic a comment and he made some other offensive comments at the time (and since). It's been held up all election about how he's anti-LGBTQ and how that's part of his far-right persona..

    ...but it was literally 20 years ago. Since then he defied the Conservative whip to abolish Section 28, which banned the “promotion” of homosexuality in schools, voted to permit civil partnerships for same-sex couples. He was the highest-ranking Conservative to come out in support of marriage equality. As mayor of London, he gave funding to Gay Pride and led the parade on several occasions. Reversing a long-standing policy, he permitted embassies to fly rainbow flags & as foreign secretary met with Russian LGBTQ activists to bring attention to their work.

    Despite being a pretty obviously classist Torie, he's not the worst we could have had. With the kind of majority where he doesn't have to pander to anybody else, or any other parties, I think he'll keep the party a lot more on centre.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  10. #1010
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    As some one who would probably classify as a neo-liberal globalist.

    I respect @Theodarzna rather sucisantly and well written points over the last few pages.

    Though I disagree an some points (surprisingly I agree on a more than I'd dare to admit, but I don't see that as neo-liberalism is the problem, more, neo-liberalism has problems it needs to fix internally)

    I think they have raised very important points regarding the state of the current left wing, it's troubles with elections, the state of the UK working class. Its a shame there just posting here in a no name forum and not leading the discussion instead of people like Owen Jones and nigal farrage.

    Were really lacking at least some one who's willing to deep dive into the issues rather than just making sound bites and skimming over the political surface.
    Careful, agreeing with me makes you enemies here quick. :3

    As for Neo-Liberalism? well, obviously I consider it abhorrent and reject Liberalism. But ultimately my position here and on this issue is that the people claiming to be Lefties are just Liberals who cosplay as Socialists to feel like they are special.

    Soon these same people will be nursing themselves with new promises that are the same as the old promises. They'll say "We need to center the working class in a just transition to movementism. The streets, the movement, the new deal, take it or leave it, basically an ultimatum, but voices, we'll elevate them, yours, your spokespeople, the socialism, the vibe, the leftism, the green new deal, Greta?!" followed shortly by my previously stated "We counted on the north and the heartlands which have been devastated and we haven't spoken to, and that's a problem. But also, I can't feel bad because those fuckers aren't woke to climate change, racism, and homophobia. So whatever, from now on it's the graduates for ourselves." Those are the only two reactions we will get, jargon filled nonsense or a more honest but nakedly brutal hatred from an aspirant ruling class that is devastated by the heathens rejection of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет - Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics. Ashley Frawley and Patrick Deneen are BEA

  11. #1011
    The Unstoppable Force CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Will be fun to see Uk labour move back to the right again.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.
    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.
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  12. #1012
    Boris: We want to be nice to those that voted to remain and against me.

    Well that's easy. Norway deal or you're just a lying piece of shit who should just walk up to the queen and impale yourself on a sword

    You want to heal the country go with the lightest of brexit deals or fuck off

  13. #1013
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    If the tories had shown the working class dignity and respect i might agree, however their repeated comments on the fact that poor people are poor because they arent intelligent enough to do better, and that the bottom 20% of society income wise produces chavs, losers and burglars is anything but showing them respect and dignity.
    Stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence isn't even controversial; heck a dejected Labour voter previously in this thread said as much, that these people don't produce anything except thugs. So this is a cross party vision of these people. Borris did have the good sense to not tell them they were too stupid to know what they were voting for; and he didn't brow beat them with Wokesterism and deride them as inferior which several allegedly "Labour" voters did in this thread for example and of which there is endless media footage of pro-Labour personalities doing just that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет - Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics. Ashley Frawley and Patrick Deneen are BEA

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence isn't even controversial; heck a dejected Labour voter previously in this thread said as much, that these people don't produce anything except thugs. So this is a cross party vision of these people. Borris did have the good sense to not tell them they were too stupid to know what they were voting for; and he didn't brow beat them with Wokesterism and deride them as inferior which several allegedly "Labour" voters did in this thread for example and of which there is endless media footage of pro-Labour personalities doing just that.
    Theres a difference between stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence, and caliming that they are the main producers of crime and less than savoury practices, hell he even stated that single mothers are raising a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children.
    Whilst also framing working class men as “likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless”.

    Yes it may be an old quote, but it still shows his stance on the working class.

  15. #1015
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    Theres a difference between stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence, and caliming that they are the main producers of crime and less than savoury practices, hell he even stated that single mothers are raising a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children.
    Whilst also framing working class men as “likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless”.

    Yes it may be an old quote, but it still shows his stance on the working class.
    Labour party voices engaged in a deliberate rhetoric of casting as lumpen reactionary fascists the majority of people who voted to leave and demanded their votes be ignored can't exactly claim they weren't engaged in the same behaviour but worse. I mean what is worse, to say the poorer classes are crime riddled or even generate a lot of crime (Something the galaxy brained Blairites agree with, and everyone also says is basically true but for different reasons), or castigating them as racist Nazi demons who are too impossibly stupid and unreformed evil fascists to know their own hearts and must be managed by a patrician class of credentialed elites who know better and have superior morality thanks to their faith in Wokeness? I'd personally rather be written off as a welfare queen who pops out kids to cheat the state out of more benefits, than be told I'm an evil unreformed super racist ultra nazi infected with mega fascism and must be managed by credentialed cunts. Petty criminality is not really bad, I'm okay with being cast as a thief, I'd rather be considered a crook than literally evil and incapable of self-government and unworthy of political representation and political power.

    Labour, just like the Democrats here in the United States, have become for the most part parties for managers, pronoun socialists, and woke bank employees. If you can't see this by now I don't know what to tell you. Oh, and I guess ethno-narcissists who hope to get the spoils of victory or at least secure in the knowledge that the party will put the boot to the neck of the other.

    Also: Don't get prissy, this does describe literally you:
    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    Because there are many, many people did vote based upon misinformation, not beng informed , being outright racist or xeno-phobis and well being plainly thick ad not understanding what they were voting for beyond "leave the eu" or how such a thing would affect us.
    This is your own rhetoric.
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2019-12-13 at 05:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет - Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics. Ashley Frawley and Patrick Deneen are BEA

  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    88% of Tory political adverts in this election were lies. Their winning with the truth is statistically very unlikely.
    And thats the flaw, maybe the 12% of truths alone may be enough to ensure a win. Maybe this 12% are about issues that concerns UK people the most.
    Thats why no one can say for sure he won due to lies. Also, politicians lie to win since politics is a thing.

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Will be fun to see Uk labour move back to the right again.
    I think you mean back to the centre left.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I think you mean back to the centre left.
    Will they turn center left?? I checked highlights on Corbyn's speech and he doesnt really take the blame and apparently will probably groom his successor.
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  19. #1019
    The Unstoppable Force CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I think you mean back to the centre left.
    Yeah, as left as Blair was. Very left.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.
    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.
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  20. #1020
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by igualitarist View Post
    Thats why no one can say for sure he won due to lies. Also, politicians lie to win since politics is a thing.
    But why are we fine with that?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

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