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  1. #1

    Chinese spy defects, revealing ops in HK, Taiwan and Australia

    Over the weekend, two fairly large news articles broke here in Australia revealing Chinese acts of interference and subversion here in Australia and abroad.

    The first was news of a Chinese spy who defected to Australia and is seeking political asylum.

    He revealed covert Chinese operations to infiltrate and subvert the Hong Kong pro-democracy movement, attempts to influence the 2016 Taiwanese elections and plans for the upcoming 2020 ones and the establishment of spy rings in Australia. He also claimed to have been involved in the 2015 kidnapping of 5 Hong Kong booksellers and their rendition to mainland China.

    He is certainly a brave man - authoritarian regimes tend to have a habit of going after defectors to make an example of them.

    The second, and more serious, article that broke, is a report that ASIO (Australian's version of the CIA) is investigating reports that China groomed a Chinese-Australian business man to run for parliament to act as an agent of foreign influence. The man reported this to ASIO and not long after was found dead in a motel in an apparently suspicious death.

    Of late, China's pressure on Australia has become less and less subtle. Not long ago a Chinese official basically told Australia that choosing the US over China would result in all of Asia hating us and previous to that the Australian parliament computer network was hacked by a foreign state actor. Officially it has not been revealed who was behind it but unofficial it is known to have been China.

    Australia's problem is that China is our main trade partner. It doesn't want to suffer the economic effects of loosing that trade (though China does kind of rely on Australia's raw materials to power their industries) but it doesn't want to kowtow to China's demands either as that will not play well with the electorate. But as Chinese interference becomes more blatant, something will have to give.

    All in all, things are getting a little bit messy here.

  2. #2
    Epic! Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    He revealed covert Chinese operations to infiltrate and subvert the Hong Kong pro-democracy movement, attempts to influence the 2016 Taiwanese elections and plans for the upcoming 2020 ones and the establishment of spy rings in Australia. He also claimed to have been involved in the 2015 kidnapping of 5 Hong Kong booksellers and their rendition to mainland China.
    I'm shocked, shocked I tell you .

    Yeah, it's China. Of course they're going to go after internal threats to their regime, like the HK protesters & "misbehaving" booksellers. And being a government, they have every right to spy on Taiwan & Australia. Of course, Taiwan & Australia have every right to "disappear" Chinese spies etc, but let's not beat about the bush. Espionage & counter-espionage are perfectly normal activities undertaken by governments everywhere. As far as news goes this is "dog bites man" stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    He is certainly a brave man - authoritarian regimes tend to have a habit of going after defectors to make an example of them.
    And their families. Although it does make me wonder if he's the real deal - after all, how can we know except through the media?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The second, and more serious, article that broke, is a report that ASIO (Australian's version of the CIA) is investigating reports that China groomed a Chinese-Australian business man to run for parliament to act as an agent of foreign influence. The man reported this to ASIO and not long after was found dead in a motel in an apparently suspicious death.
    Entirely to be expected, though to my mind grooming candidates like this seems to be a more serious scenario than merely suborning an existing MP or whoever. Regardless, he clearly got what was coming to him as a traitor (amusingly, whether you're pro-Australia or pro-China he got his just desserts :P ) so let's just dance a little jig & make sure the PRC isn't trying to do the same with other candidates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Of late, China's pressure on Australia has become less and less subtle. Not long ago a Chinese official basically told Australia that choosing the US over China would result in all of Asia hating us and previous to that the Australian parliament computer network was hacked by a foreign state actor. Officially it has not been revealed who was behind it but unofficial it is known to have been China.
    Yep, welcome to international politics. Australia & New Zealand are both in an awkward spot and need to (a) get very strong ties to non-Chinese power blocs etc*, and (b) stop any Chinese immigration if they don't want to fall entirely under the Chinese thumb. On the other hand, if they can reach an accommodation I expect the PRC will be happy to let them do their own thing so long as, for example, the coal continues to flow.

    *I'd really like to see something CANZUK-based myself. A population the size of Russia and with nukes involved will find it much easier to tell the Chinese where to stick it, and culturally all four countries are pretty close still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    All in all, things are getting a little bit messy here.
    Not just in Australasia. Vancouver and the like are also falling under Chinese sway, and then there's that "scrapped" plan to transplant 100 million Chinese colonists to Africa.
    Still not tired of winning.

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    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be nice if long time ally of Australia, the US, didn't have an inept, petulant man-child as a leader so that they might actually be able to broker a mutually beneficial agreement with Australia to help supplant their trade reliance on China? Shame that's not the world we live in. Maybe in 2020, God willing.

    At any rate, good on this guy. Hopefully the AISO and other intergovernmental intelligence bodies will be able to use his intel in exposing Chinese subterfuge.

    Also, Inb4 "but what about all the WESTERN spies infiltrating the SOVEREIGN HEGEMONY OF CHINA and subverting the will of the united party of 1 BILLION PEOPLE!!!1!1!" whataboutism from the usual suspects.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Wouldn't it be nice if long time ally of Australia, the US, didn't have an inept, petulant man-child as a leader so that they might actually be able to broker a mutually beneficial agreement with Australia to help supplant their trade reliance on China? Shame that's not the world we live in. Maybe in 2020, God willing.
    There is really only so much trade agreements can do against geography though.
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    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There is really only so much trade agreements can do against geography though.
    True, but I'd imagine that a mutually beneficial trade agreement between the likes of... well, basically the entire western world, would supersede the mere geographic proximity that China brings to the table. Especially when Australia knows that China does not have its best interests in mind.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    True, but I'd imagine that a mutually beneficial trade agreement between the likes of... well, basically the entire western world, would supersede the mere geographic proximity that China brings to the table. Especially when Australia knows that China does not have its best interests in mind.
    It really wouldn't. Australia would have to take a hit in cost of living in any case. Perhaps that is the better choice and perhaps they won't even be given a choice if in the future things get more serious. But it is what it is.
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  7. #7
    the shock would be if china wasnt doing these things. i think anyone with a brain knows most nations do these things. infiltrating and subverting hong kong?? never would i have guessed that.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    the shock would be if china wasnt doing these things. i think anyone with a brain knows most nations do these things. infiltrating and subverting hong kong?? never would i have guessed that.
    Remember that when west does that, its in name of democracy (for gullible. in reality it has 0 to do with democracy, everything to do with taking control over resources and looting/pillaging countries) so its good. When anyone else does that, its pure evil.

    But yeah, nothing new there. CIA has been doing same since its creation many decades ago, but it has become so normal that it doesn't even make news and rarely makes news in west because news can't show how bad CIA is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    He is certainly a brave man - authoritarian regimes tend to have a habit of going after defectors to make an example of them.
    You mean like US and their puppets tried with Snowden and did with Assange?
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    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoltBlaster View Post
    Remember that when west does that, its in name of democracy (for gullible. in reality it has 0 to do with democracy, everything to do with taking control over resources and looting/pillaging countries) so its good. When anyone else does that, its pure evil.

    But yeah, nothing new there. CIA has been doing same since its creation many decades ago, but it has become so normal that it doesn't even make news and rarely makes news in west because news can't show how bad CIA is.


    You mean like US and their puppets tried with Snowden and did with Assange?
    Imma be real here, in a subterfuge war between China and the US... I’d rather the US win. Every day of the week.

    Nobody is claiming that they think spying is the issue here... or, at the very least, they accept it as a necessary evil.

    They’re against Chinese spying not because it’s spying, they’re against it because it’s China’s insidious, authoritarian regime behind it. Sorry if that bursts your bubble or your puts a damper on your whataboutism claims of hypocrisy, but thems the brakes.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Imma be real here, in a subterfuge war between China and the US... I’d rather the US win. Every day of the week.
    True, but there won't be war.

    The only reason for war to start would be aggression by US. China is not known for attacking other countries, only for dealing with territories they consider theirs and their military capabilities are strictly for defence. If war happens, US economy would be devastated. Politicians exchange angry words because that's their job, but there won't be more than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    They’re against Chinese spying not because it’s spying, they’re against it because it’s China’s insidious, authoritarian regime behind it.
    Yep. People are upset because other part of the world prefers to live differently. Some can't comprehend that not everyone in the world wants democracy and share same values. West always knows what's best, right?
    Last edited by BoltBlaster; 2019-11-25 at 06:35 PM.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by BoltBlaster View Post
    True, but there won't be war.

    The only reason for war to start would be aggression by US. China is not known for attacking other countries, only for dealing with territories they consider theirs and their military capabilities are strictly for defence. If war happens, US economy would be devastated. Politicians exchange angry words because that's their job, but there won't be more than that.


    Yep. People are upset because other part of the world prefers to live differently. Some can't comprehend that not everyone in the world wants democracy and share same values. West always knows what's best, right?
    It goes deeper then that tho. For instance allowing public discourse to perhaps harm the overall establishment is a shining point of western political ideology. The censoring nature of them which does not promote free and open discourse is another. The lack of business interests usurping the governmental wills and wants is another. I am not implying that China should adhere to western values but the reason why the west allowed China to gain its rise is because they felt that after a given rise in the populace they would demand more rights / freedoms akin to what happened in the west and Chinese power has limited any real disruptions which is why you are seeing the mess in Hong Kong supported by the west ( as shown in pictures from former intel officials meeting with protesters etc ).

    The west will and can not win this argument in the space of ideas either, different cultures and structures are almost impossible to strip at this point in China. Also China is growing its influence in other nations to subvert the US using various trade pacts and agreements with updates to counter any sort of collusion the US musters, this is why BRIC is important or the recently updated trade deal / pact with New Zealand. The biggest problem for the Chinese is finding gainful employment for its populace and keeping them at a decent standard of living to avoid a meltdown of the social order this is why i mentioned the trade negotiations earlier as a way to limit whatever power the US has to isolate China. China is winning in this regard and will likely continue to win and if things stay as they are in the US, they will win the 2020's.

    I say this as i am about to venture to China regarding a investment summit.

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    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoltBlaster View Post
    True, but there won't be war.

    The only reason for war to start would be aggression by US. China is not known for attacking other countries, only for dealing with territories they consider theirs and their military capabilities are strictly for defence. If war happens, US economy would be devastated. Politicians exchange angry words because that's their job, but there won't be more than that.
    "War of subterfuge." Those are the words I used, not "war."


    Yep. People are upset because other part of the world prefers to live differently. Some can't comprehend that not everyone in the world wants democracy and share same values. West always knows what's best, right?
    Well I mean ask Hong Kong their feelings about it.

    Or Tibet. Wonder what their take on it is.

    Contrary to what Trump and his sycophant followers may lead you to believe, not a lot of people in the western world are taking to the streets begging for a dictator "president for life" to order them around.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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    The Unstoppable Force CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    They are learning fom the US, I see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    He revealed covert Chinese operations to infiltrate and subvert the Hong Kong pro-democracy movement, attempts to influence the 2016 Taiwanese elections and plans for the upcoming 2020 ones and the establishment of spy rings in Australia. He also claimed to have been involved in the 2015 kidnapping of 5 Hong Kong booksellers and their rendition to mainland China.
    That's a lot to know and to do for a single spy, they surely caught a chinese James Bond this time.


    Or maybe it is a boogieman fake news

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    That's a lot to know and to do for a single spy, they surely caught a chinese James Bond this time.


    Or maybe it is a boogieman fake news
    You surely know better about spying, right?

  16. #16
    Australia is displaying vast incompetence by not assuring the safety of those former spies.

  17. #17
    It could have been an angry Chinese gold farmer from WoW.
    The hunter hoe with the least beloe.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BoltBlaster View Post
    True, but there won't be war.

    The only reason for war to start would be aggression by US. China is not known for attacking other countries, only for dealing with territories they consider theirs and their military capabilities are strictly for defence. If war happens, US economy would be devastated. Politicians exchange angry words because that's their job, but there won't be more than that.
    If the US collapses into civil war, China (and Russia) would have NO CHOICE but to aggressively invade the US. The reason is if they sit back and let a civil war play out, they risk some random nutso strong man getting control of the US nuclear weapon stockpile. They absolutely MUST intervene to secure the nukes and restore order. Of course in doing so, they risk some nukes being fired, but there is no other option.

    Nuclear weapons have changed the game in this regard. China and Russia would need to step up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    If the US collapses into civil war, China (and Russia) would have NO CHOICE but to aggressively invade the US. The reason is if they sit back and let a civil war play out, they risk some random nutso strong man getting control of the US nuclear weapon stockpile. They absolutely MUST intervene to secure the nukes and restore order. Of course in doing so, they risk some nukes being fired, but there is no other option.

    Nuclear weapons have changed the game in this regard. China and Russia would need to step up.
    Let's assume your HIGHLY unlikely event happens - they will invade how, exactly? With what, exactly?
    P.S.
    Nothing unifies country faster and better than outside threat.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    If the US collapses into civil war, China (and Russia) would have NO CHOICE but to aggressively invade the US. The reason is if they sit back and let a civil war play out, they risk some random nutso strong man getting control of the US nuclear weapon stockpile. They absolutely MUST intervene to secure the nukes and restore order. Of course in doing so, they risk some nukes being fired, but there is no other option.

    Nuclear weapons have changed the game in this regard. China and Russia would need to step up.
    Funny to remember how much Republicans hated Communists back in the day that they held actual witch trials for suspected Communists. Now you have Republicans begging Communists to come help them. Republicans in the 80's watching Red Dawn and Rocky IV: "Ya go America kick those Commie asses." Republicans in 2019 watching Red Dawn and Rocky IV: "Boo come on Commies get back up and kick America's ass."

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