How the hell Kael'thas went to Revendreth, meanwhile Arthas went to Maw?

[Kallisto]

Not sure about that. Arthas without helm of domination and most importantly, his soul (stolen by frostmourne) is a different person than Arthas the Lich King. He fucked up and sacrified an important piece of himself to save his people. His personality then made him do terrible things. You gotta keep in mind that the Arthas we saw in the final WOTLK cinematic seeked solace in his father. I think Arthas would repent. I could see him become Kyrian in the end.

Same Arthas, same mind from the moment he was born until he died on icc. There's no separate entity. Everything was Arthas.

[nonameelf]

Kael did everything on his own, deserving punishment but possibly redemption.

I doubt he was in full control after he was resurrected by having a fel crystal shoved into his chest, but I assume that'd probably be part of his redemption arc.

[Super Dickmann]

Per Chronicle, the reason Kael'thas ultimately took to KJ's offer was chiefly because he wanted fel magic. He cared about his people, yes, but primarily he was after that sweet magic and he was willing to kill everyone, everywhere, including said people, to get it.

That's kind of the elephant in the room when you introduce cosmically decided morality. Sure, Kael is better off than Arthas, mostly by virtue of being less successful and I'm glad he's going to be back because him being the above was just character butchery to get a quick raid boss in and neuter the blood elves, but he's still a mess.

It's why I'm hoping the Arbiter is herself fishy, even if I'm not counting on it.

[Terongor]

See, this is what I disagree on. Before Arthas died, when he told his father "Is it over," he was, IMO, relieved to be rid of being the Lich King/having his soul freed from Frostmourne--a step towards penance. Kael, however, gladly sold his soul to KJ for power.

Chronicles 3 kinda disagrees here kael was pratically mind controlled after his defeat in tempest keep and KJ manipulated him before fall of tempest keep by using his peoples wellfare.

[therealbowser]

Kael'thas wasn't irredeemable (after death), though only barely. Kael'thas also wasn't powerful enough, especially after his "real" death, to truly be a big enough threat to be sent there.

Arthas was 100% irredeemable, and very dangerously powerful on top of that.

[Aeula]

They should both be in the maw.

[faithbane]

Arthas was mass killing while Kael'thas wasn't in a way. Plus you have Arthas upsetting the balance in Shadowlands by pulling people from there and resurrecting them as part of his undead army. That's a far bigger issue to Shadowlands than Kael'thas was.

Also, you can go to the Maw if they deem you to be a threat to the entirety of Shadowlands. They know Arthas has prior knowledge of Shadowlands and can be a far bigger threat than Kael'thas.

Lastly, how can we make setback jokes if Kael'thas wasn't around?

Can we stop with mindlessly supporting BS writing of blizzard.. necromancy existed long before Arthas and will continue long after him. Nerzhul was raising scourge left and right for years before him. + Calling shadowlands fucking infinite and a few year long rampage of arthas in 1 part of 1 fucking planet is enough to upset the balance?

Fuck off with that level if BS please. (not directed at you to be clear I am yelling at the clouds/whoever wrote this story)


The only reason Kael is making a comeback is because he was used terribly in BC.. He tried to destroy the whole planet by turning it over to KJ and actually managed fuck stuff up on multiple planets..

- - - Updated - - -

Same Arthas, same mind from the moment he was born until he died on icc. There's no separate entity. Everything was Arthas.

What game have you been playing? "The first soul froustmourne claimed was Arthas" that is a direct quote from the game. From the moment he picked up the sword until arguably to his death and/or until he put on the helm, he was under LKs direct influence. He even makes direct references to voices in his head and what they are telling him to do throughout wc3 and directly being dictated on what to do by LK in wc3 FT

[EntertainmentNihilist]

They said souls have been re-directed to the Maw for the past "few years", so maybe this gives us the time-frame for the emergence of the maw. I.E. the maw popped up (or at least, souls started being re-directed there) in between Magisters terrace and ICC.

[TSBasilisk]

During Blizzcon it was stated that death broke sometime around Legion. They didn't specify whether it was before, during, or after, but that's our timeframe.

I think there's also possibly some shenanigans going on with Frostmourne/the Helm. Sylvanas originally went to a more pleasant afterlife on her first death, but after Wrath she instead went to the Maw. Why? Much like Kael'thas most of her long life was spent protecting her people, it was only after breaking free from the Lich King that she began her descent into villainy. Even then her actions and those of her followers up to her second death were, while horrible, still not what I would expect of someone who deserved the Maw - for that I would reserve people like Gul'dan or Azshara.

Rather I'm inclined to think the entire purpose of the blade and helm was to mark souls so they would be incorrectly judged and sent into the Maw. Both Sylvanas and Arthas were rendered undead through power granted by the Jailer and that marked them for the Maw.

[Zuben]

In my mind's eye I can see a Blizzard dev answering the question something like this:

"Fate of souls is decided by the Arbiter's fallible judgment. That's why, from our perspective, things seem unbalanced."

[Tharivor]

From what we've seen so far it seems that the main difference between the Maw and Rivendreth is less "degree of evil" and more "potential for redemption" (and thereby the potential for the soul's anima to be extracted and used by the Shadowlands).

If I wanted to justify why Arthas was deemed irredeemable (and I hesitate to do so since I doubt Blizz gave it more than 2 seconds of thought), I would point to the fact that in WotLK Arthas deliberatly destroys the last uncorrupted part of his soul, prompting even Tirion to conclude he is beyond redemption. It's possible that it doing so Arthas destroyed the only part of his soul undamaged enough to have potentially been purified in Rivendreth for later processing by the Shadowlands.

[Tarba]

Arthas doomed himself to protect his people. Kael thas sommes himself because blizzard writers were retards.

[Aucald]

In my mind's eye I can see a Blizzard dev answering the question something like this:

"Fate of souls is decided by the Arbiter's fallible judgment. That's why, from our perspective, things seem unbalanced."

The Arbiter, based on prior description, seems to be quasi-omniscient when it comes to the judgment of souls. It can quite literally peer into the substance of a given soul, seeing the whole of its reasons and justifications for its acts in life, as well as revealing innermost thoughts and drives. It might be fallible or able to be swayed, but its great age and experience in the judgment of souls would probably make that exceedingly unlikely.

[RangerDaz]

Kael was a good guy, Arthas was a bad guy.

That was my impression of the warcraft 3 campaign.

Burning crusade murdered his storyline

I think this will try to amend their marketing mistake of making Kael, Vashj & Illidan the BC villains (Legion started this).


I also believe that they know many fans were angry with the fate of these three characters, and this might be an attempt to restore this beloved character in some way.

[Raisei]

Arthas was generally a terrible person. A prideful prince. He thought he was better than everyone and it showed even before he got his hands on Frostmourne. And afterwards he decided to sack and destroy his own kingdom, as well as Quel'thelas. While killing countless other innocents. Kael'thas has never been responsible for outright genocide. He only wanted what was best for his people. Even if they had to serve the Legion to survive.

This is exactly the opposite of what he was. He was never prideful, he considered all of his subjects his equals and fought for them, it is exactly that trait which Ner'zhul corrupted. Arthas went to Northrend to end the threat to his people and was tricked into taking up Frostmourne. Arthas the Death Knight was so warped that he considered his undead army as his new subjects and was incredibly pissed off when they were killed, while he was unable to feel anything else for the human casualties of his campaign, not even when he killed his father.
The only flaw in his character was an inferiority complex. He always worried that his father considered him unfit for the crown, this made him unsure and question himself and lash out against anyone that questioned his decisions (i.e. Uther and even Jaina).
And no, he never "decided" to destroy his kingdom, that was the Lich King making that decision for him. He was only a tool at that point and every other point after he took up the sword.

I am still unsure Arthas deserves the Maw at all. The only "crime" we can actually blame him for is the Culling of Stratholme and that one he did out of mercy for the infected while of course also damning the non-infected to death (however, if the infected had turned most, if not all, of the uninfected would have died as well).
Everything he did from the moment he gripped Frostmourne was under the control of the Lich King whispering in his mind and after his soul had been sucked out by the sword. So is is fair that he suffers for eternity for what someone made him do? Especially if what is going to the Shadowlands is his soul that was sealed inside of Frostmourne and did not have any control over the actions of the Lich King.
This kinda makes me think that there are other factors at play, so a few possibilities:

1) The Machine of Death was already broken when Arthas died, so he never met the Arbiter. We still have no definite point in time for when this started, maybe it was indeed Kil'jaeden stealing the Helmet and Sword from the Shadowlands. The only problem with this theory is that Uther was sealed in Frostmourne and thus went to the Shadowlands pretty much at the same time as Arthas, but he ended up in Bastion.

2) Dying on top of Icecrown somehow reserves your soul for the Jailer. We know Icecrown is the mirror of Torghast, so maybe people that die in there directly go to the Maw, this would explain Arthas and Sylvanas (though I feel she very much deserves to go there considering her actions AFTER regaining her free will), however, again Uther was released from Frostmourne up there as well, so if this rule applies he should be in the Maw too... hrmmm

3) Undeath/Necromancy somehow corrupts your soul, preventing you from entering anything but the Maw. Maybe the Jailer is the actual progenitor of necromancy, and rigged it so that he would get all souls of undead and necromancers. This one makes probably the most sense, it explains Arthas (who was not fully undead but apparently enough to cut out his own heart) and Sylvanas and excludes Uther. It is also the most concurrent theory with older lore that had all Undead be damned.

[united]

Lol @ trying to equate what Kael’thas did to Arthas.

[Grazrug]

Kael was twisted by corruption and tried really hard to do the right thing before Illidan backstabbed his original promise. Arthas was a great, royal idiot, and a murderous bastard before he even touched frostmourne. Are you trying to tell me OP, that guy is deserving of redemption? This is frkn Garrosh syndrome and apologism all over again.

[Zuben]

The Arbiter, based on prior description, seems to be quasi-omniscient when it comes to the judgment of souls. It can quite literally peer into the substance of a given soul, seeing the whole of its reasons and justifications for its acts in life, as well as revealing innermost thoughts and drives. It might be fallible or able to be swayed, but its great age and experience in the judgment of souls would probably make that exceedingly unlikely.

Arbiter might not be susceptible to the same failing as us mortals, but if there is some personality to it (her?) it's possible great experience may not necessarily be just a boon to it. The reason why some old hats are forced to retire from positions they've held for decades is to get new perspective into the position with hope of overall improvement.

Also, I meant my response as Blizzard hand-waiving the question, since they haven't yet thought it through. I think the very purpose for Revendreth as a sort of purgatory is problematic, as it suggests there are objective right and wrong ways to live your life, no matter how you yourself may feel about it. With a thing like that included in their afterlife-system, Blizzard isn't equipped to answer such questions. Shadowlands will be an interesting look into Warcrafts deathrealms, but it will require suspension of disbelief.

[Combatbutler]

Also, I meant my response as Blizzard hand-waiving the question, since they haven't yet thought it through. I think the very purpose for Revendreth as a sort of purgatory is problematic, as it suggests there are objective right and wrong ways to live your life, no matter how you yourself may feel about it. With a thing like that included in their afterlife-system, Blizzard isn't equipped to answer such questions. Shadowlands will be an interesting take on Warcrafts deathrealms, but it will require suspension of disbelief.

Which then opens up an entire can of worms, because from a game perspective we are universally hailed as great beings, despite having literally murdered infants.

[Kalarm]

Same Arthas, same mind from the moment he was born until he died on icc. There's no separate entity. Everything was Arthas.

He is, and is not. Arthas was not perfect, but what he became when he lost his soul, is another story. Think of it this way. You as a person, have inhibitions. Those inhibitions are part of yourself and a big part of what defines you. Maybe you got an alcoholism problem and lose your inhibitions. You do some bad shit, insult people, etc etc. You get sober and realize "Shit, I done some shit" and go to AA meetings and all of that. You are redeemable.

Arthas took on frostmourne. Lost his soul which warped him. Sadly, he couldn't just "sober up" with time and realize he done some shit. Just like a drunken person might just drink more and never un-sober enough to realize the shit he did, Arthas couldn't just get his soul back. Why would he, he believes he is ok without it and got a big whole crew of souless people with him. He dies, he now has his soul back. What does he do with it? If he feels remorse for the shit he did, he is redeemable. If not, he is not. The end of WOTLK seems to point that he went back to who he was prior to frostmourne.

So yeah I think he can be redeemed. I also think that the shadowlands work in a different way in the sense that they must not care all that much if you killed a fuck ton of people or not. It's the land of the dead. They probably see redemption more in a psychological way then a "what did you do" way. Can the person repent? Can the person look back and see it's mistakes? Can that person work toward being a productive part of the shadowlands? Or will they still try to corrupt, destroy, etc etc.