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  1. #1
    High Overlord Icecat's Avatar
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    FFXIV Undertuned

    So I've been wondering if it's worth resubbing to this game after stopping in Stormblood. I've heard some good things, but I'm wondering if my biggest complaint is still valid - that being the game is grossly undertuned.

    I think there are a few reasons for this. The damage values seem balanced around a more casual playerbase and tested on controllers. Playing this shit on mouse and keyboard where you can rapidly click through allies and enemies to CC/mitigate damage frankly felt like cheating. I did Savage Raids for 2 tiers in Stormblood and found them very fun. Unfortunately, it's the only content in the game that really pushed me to engage with the class mechanics on a remoyely deep level. As complicated as rotations can be in FFXIV, it seems like just about anyone can do 99% of the content just by mashing buttons. By the time I quit Stormblood, it was more than possible to spam roulettes without a tank or a healer. Every piece of content in the DF could just be utterly steamrolled.

    Is this something you guys notice in the game, or has it gone away with the introduction of 5.0? When I saw things like the Trust system being announced, I worried that the systems were moving even further toward a direction where the game played itself. I think some classes allow for some truly fun flexibility (primarily healers), but by and large, rotations were just solely executed by each individual player. For a social game, FFXIV really took some pages out of WoW's pages in making sure that the players would not be actually playing around each other or having unique playstyles. Like WoW, it felt like players existed in their own little box, doing their own thing until the boss died. Things like Limit Break could have been reworked to allow for more interesting social play.

    A lot of these issues only existed in things below Savage content, but for virtually every player, that was the game. Just more tab targeting WoW-esque busywork. If the endgame really is glamour-hunting, as many players joke about, then there isn't a ton of expression there, either. And even then, at that point, I figure I could just practice drawing. Am I only filling bars every week to earn gear that dresses up an avatar that no one actually cares about? I don't think there's anything particularly unique about that gameplay cycle.

    Don't mean to disparage the game or the devs. The story and presentation of this game have always been nothing short of remarkable. I'm just wondering if I'm alone in thinking these things about FFXIV. I think if any "traditional" MMO could aspire to better things, it'd be this one. I'm a little let down by what I've seen so far.

  2. #2
    Well...what you're describing is basically every MMO.

    Content below the top endgame content tends to be trivial farm-y type stuff. That's how it is. That's how the genre is.

    Now, XIV has less endgame style content than WoW - for example - and that's something that might make people pick one game over the other. But the claim that this game specifically is "undertuned" in pre-endgame content isn't valid, that's how every entry in the genre behaves, for the most part.

  3. #3
    Dude, there isn't a single mmo with challenging out doors. I believe Eureka was the experience you wanted. It was supposed to be a mini FFXI. But it's seen nerfs in the latest patch cause after SB it's been deserted.
    The only challenge outdoors are rare fates and S ranks. But they sure aren't a tightly tuned savage raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well...what you're describing is basically every MMO.

    Content below the top endgame content tends to be trivial farm-y type stuff. That's how it is. That's how the genre is.

    Now, XIV has less endgame style content than WoW - for example - and that's something that might make people pick one game over the other. But the claim that this game specifically is "undertuned" in pre-endgame content isn't valid, that's how every entry in the genre behaves, for the most part.
    This is always something i struggle to agree. Less end game content... maybe if you only care about the 8 man raids. FFXIV patches come more often than WoW ones, so it's difficult to quantify, but someone that does more than just 8 man raids, there is lots to do.
    Actually, after playing for several months now, it's how i decribe the game. It's the mmo where i never have a lack of what to do. Honestly, new content is coming faster than i can catch up.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2019-11-26 at 03:47 AM.

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Dude, there isn't a single mmo with challenging out doors. I believe Eureka was the experience you wanted. It was supposed to be a mini FFXI. But it's seen nerfs in the latest patch cause after SB it's been deserted.
    The only challenge outdoors are rare fates and S ranks. But they sure aren't a tightly tuned savage raid.

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    This is always something i struggle to agree. Less end game content... maybe if you only care about the 8 man raids. FFXIV patches come more often than WoW ones, so it's difficult to quantify, but someone that does more than just 8 man raids, there is lots to do.
    Actually, after playing for several months now, it's how i decribe the game. It's the mmo where i never have a lack of what to do. Honestly, new content is coming faster than i can catch up.
    It does have less endgame style content. There are straight up fewer "end game" difficult bosses than WoW, and they're generally easier.

    The combat is the worst part of FFXIV, imo. Worse than WoW in every way I care about, but the feeling of wearing top of the line crafting gear I made on my own is one of the best feelings I've ever had from a video game.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    This is always something i struggle to agree. Less end game content... maybe if you only care about the 8 man raids. FFXIV patches come more often than WoW ones, so it's difficult to quantify, but someone that does more than just 8 man raids, there is lots to do.
    Actually, after playing for several months now, it's how i decribe the game. It's the mmo where i never have a lack of what to do. Honestly, new content is coming faster than i can catch up.
    But is that content worth playing? I want to love FFXIV, but I honestly get bored to hell and back leveling. In World of Warcraft, there's honestly more content than I can keep up with, but none of it is interesting or engaging to me as a raider, so I check out and it puts me behind the curve. Can you say I won't experience that?

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! Usagi Senshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    The combat is the worst part of FFXIV, imo. Worse than WoW in every way I care about
    And what might that be? I'm genuinely curious whenever someone makes this complaint about FFXIV.

    I think it plays just fine and feels great and I've played hundred of games since the early 80s and have played the fastest paced Korean MMOs out there. People keep making complaints about responsiveness and I still don;t see or feel it while playing. Its super smooth and my abilities always happen when I want them to.

    GCD shit doesn't bother me as I can mentally adjust to whatever game I play and enjoy it for what it is and how it plays.

    I dunno, I just find the complaints overblown IMO, that or people are just too damn picky.
    Tikki tikki tembo, Usagi no Yojimbo, chari bari ruchi pip peri pembo!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Usagi Senshi View Post
    And what might that be? I'm genuinely curious whenever someone makes this complaint about FFXIV.

    I think it plays just fine and feels great and I've played hundred of games since the early 80s and have played the fastest paced Korean MMOs out there. People keep making complaints about responsiveness and I still don;t see or feel it while playing. Its super smooth and my abilities always happen when I want them to.

    GCD shit doesn't bother me as I can mentally adjust to whatever game I play and enjoy it for what it is and how it plays.

    I dunno, I just find the complaints overblown IMO, that or people are just too damn picky.
    For me, it's a comparative thing. The combat is worse than WoW in every functional way. The class design is worse. The bosses are less interesting. The cast abilities are less responsive, and the latency is worse. Why would I do this combat that is clearly worse when I have an alternative?

    The only thing FFXIV's raids have for me is references, and that's a run it once kind of thing. Grinding tomestones from the same two or three dungeons is Not ever appealing.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Usagi Senshi View Post
    And what might that be? I'm genuinely curious whenever someone makes this complaint about FFXIV.

    I think it plays just fine and feels great and I've played hundred of games since the early 80s and have played the fastest paced Korean MMOs out there. People keep making complaints about responsiveness and I still don;t see or feel it while playing. Its super smooth and my abilities always happen when I want them to.

    GCD shit doesn't bother me as I can mentally adjust to whatever game I play and enjoy it for what it is and how it plays.

    I dunno, I just find the complaints overblown IMO, that or people are just too damn picky.
    It's because many animations are overly long, so you end up rollerskating around while you fight. At least, that's the bit that bothers me. Pulls me right out of the action.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    This is always something i struggle to agree. Less end game content... maybe if you only care about the 8 man raids. FFXIV patches come more often than WoW ones, so it's difficult to quantify, but someone that does more than just 8 man raids, there is lots to do.
    Actually, after playing for several months now, it's how i decribe the game. It's the mmo where i never have a lack of what to do. Honestly, new content is coming faster than i can catch up.
    I think the context was pretty clear here.

    Yes, you get new patches with stuff like Hildebrand or something, but that's quite clearly not the topic at hand.

  11. #11
    I am Murloc! Usagi Senshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    For me, it's a comparative thing. The combat is worse than WoW in every functional way. The class design is worse. The bosses are less interesting. The cast abilities are less responsive, and the latency is worse. Why would I do this combat that is clearly worse when I have an alternative?

    The only thing FFXIV's raids have for me is references, and that's a run it once kind of thing. Grinding tomestones from the same two or three dungeons is Not ever appealing.
    Eh,I disagree on all of that (except the raiding and tombstone grinding, they really need to shake that up after 6 years. Its as if they're too scared to try anything else) and leave it at that. I've played many latency filled shit fest MMOs and FFXIV is right up there with WoW as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    It's because many animations are overly long, so you end up rollerskating around while you fight. At least, that's the bit that bothers me. Pulls me right out of the action.
    I quite like the long and detailed animations and feel makes me enjoy watching my character fight as I play. The rollerskating doesn't really bother me at all.

    An older video of me playing SAM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJHQIXUhWfE
    Tikki tikki tembo, Usagi no Yojimbo, chari bari ruchi pip peri pembo!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Usagi Senshi View Post
    And what might that be? I'm genuinely curious whenever someone makes this complaint about FFXIV.

    I think it plays just fine and feels great and I've played hundred of games since the early 80s and have played the fastest paced Korean MMOs out there. People keep making complaints about responsiveness and I still don;t see or feel it while playing. Its super smooth and my abilities always happen when I want them to.

    GCD shit doesn't bother me as I can mentally adjust to whatever game I play and enjoy it for what it is and how it plays.

    I dunno, I just find the complaints overblown IMO, that or people are just too damn picky.
    These kinds of statements always kinda bother me.

    It's one thing to say you don't mind or it doesn't have a large effect on your experience. But to claim that there's no actual difference? That it's just as smooth, responsive, and synced as other games?

    No. Come on. That's just objectively false.

  13. #13
    one thing that bothered me a lot when starting ff14 was enemy animation lag.

    for a game that puts so much emphasis on boss animations as part of mechanics, the lag between castbar finishes and boss does his attack is annoying.

    take Hades' armswipe as an example: the action of swiping across happens around 0.5-1 second after the cast goes off.
    i can't remember how many times people would die while standing right next to others who did not get hit.

  14. #14
    I stopped playing FFXIV because I could start moving before my casts were finished (like 0.4 seconds) and the cast would complete. That built in delay is so bad compared to WoW.

  15. #15
    Basically it still is undertuned. I cleared E4 6 days in after release with an evening - only schedule, and my group is almost finished with Alexander ultimate already after 2 weeks (they saw the first enrage yesterday). Im not in that group since I stopped playing, but the other 7 players are the same. The game looks fantastic and all, but for raiders, the endgame is too thin, and since there is no competetive pvp, I went back to retail wow after 2,5 years of FFXIV only.

    EDIT: also the netcode as many pointed out with the delay and all makes it really inferior to wow in MY opinion
    Last edited by JinMaruh; 2019-11-26 at 06:34 AM.

  16. #16
    The combat and, to a lesser extent, the class design are still absolutely the worst parts of FFXIV, in my opinion. Again, the story telling, world-building, and NPC character development are probably among the best of any MMO out there currently (possibly even THE best, but I suppose that's also subjective), but the moment to moment gameplay can feel like an absolute chore sometimes, especially at lower levels where you have far fewer abilities and game modes to play around with.

    I'm sorry @Usagi_Senshi; I'm glad to hear that you personally enjoy the combat and obviously you're not alone in that sentiment, but at the same time, neither I nor the other people in this thread are alone in our dislike of the combat either, since it's something I had heard about even prior to playing myself. It seems a little ignorant to just dismiss such feelings as people being "too picky", especially when it's clear some of us are also willing to point out FFXIV's strengths at the same time, so it's not just people complaining to complain.

    I mean, I play games with full on turn-based combat, and just waiting for my turn has never felt nearly as aggravating as that extra second of delay with FFXIV's GCD.
    Last edited by RadasNoir; 2019-11-26 at 10:31 AM.
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    Because goodness knows Blizzard would rather people forget about the Night Elves entirely.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    But is that content worth playing? I want to love FFXIV, but I honestly get bored to hell and back leveling. In World of Warcraft, there's honestly more content than I can keep up with, but none of it is interesting or engaging to me as a raider, so I check out and it puts me behind the curve. Can you say I won't experience that?
    Thats why you only raid in WoW , and use secondary MMOs as casual story lines, because in their majority they are unplayable if you are slightly better/higher skilled/more dedicated, call it whatever, MMORPG player.

    I get so tired of the pathetic excuses people give to justify leveling/story lines as any sort of end game content that take the average human a few hours to complete and then the game is dead like any single player game the last 10 years...but in a MMO!

    "Well i only play 2 hours a week, so since it takes me 3 months to finish this pathetic story line, the game is good".
    Last edited by potis; 2019-11-26 at 10:18 AM.

  18. #18
    I mean like every MMO everything is basically entry level except for their specifically design hard content. SO I don't know what you expect from playing an MMO?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    It's because many animations are overly long, so you end up rollerskating around while you fight. At least, that's the bit that bothers me. Pulls me right out of the action.
    You know you can disable that right?

  19. #19
    Warchief Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I mean like every MMO everything is basically entry level except for their specifically design hard content. SO I don't know what you expect from playing an MMO?

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    You know you can disable that right?
    Please explain how. I would really like to know.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    But is that content worth playing? I want to love FFXIV, but I honestly get bored to hell and back leveling. In World of Warcraft, there's honestly more content than I can keep up with, but none of it is interesting or engaging to me as a raider, so I check out and it puts me behind the curve. Can you say I won't experience that?
    That depends entirely on you and how you play the game and what you enjoy. In WoW i was doing the raids (wich started getting boring cause of all the repetition with difficulty levels), weekly mythic + and occasional emissary.
    In FF i do random dungeons, trials, alliance raid and raid encounter, aka roulettes (they give end-game rewards if done with a lvl80), i do beast tribe quests wich help me level up other jobs crafting and combat and then i got choices. I can go on a hunt train if theres one going, i can go to the gold saucer and play mini-games, i can go for a rare fate if it's spotted on discord, i go do fates or crafting in the firmament (new server widecrafting event) with associated gathering, i can go do dungeon runs with my npc's, i can go work on my housing decorations, gardening or as i currently am change the plumage of my chocobo or i can go pvp (strictly speaking you can do that in WoW as well,but it's way more balanced in FFXIV, wich for me means a lot in terms of enjoyment. It feels much like GW1 PvP or world pvp in instances).

    Are these worthwhile? Depends entirely on you. For me, they are. Theres rewards for all of it. If all you care about is the pursuit of power, then you are going to have fewer options. Roulettes, hunts, crafting consumables and gear and your organised raiding.
    I agree that if all you care about is 8 man raiding, then you aren't gonna encounter more here than in WoW. But i enjoy the encounters a lot more in FF and i enjoy the unique alliance raids too.
    Basically, if you are a casual player just enjoying the game, there is a lot to like. If you are a pragmatic person that just enjoys the raiding, then you won't see as much value.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2019-11-26 at 02:55 PM.

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