Where is the storyline for Sylvanas loyalists?

[Powerogue]

We beat the Jailer and Sylvanas, repair the Machine of Death and both Horde and Alliance prepare to depart. Just then the Arbiter appears and tells the loyalists that they are not leaving, their mind sets and deeds are corrupted and letting them go back to Azeroth is not an option. They will be imprisoned in the new Maw for all eternity. Character aren't deleted of course, but they get locked in a small cell with a permament debuff that prevents any action for 24 hours, renewed upon logging in. This will be an acount-wide feature.

Everything this guy said, except that part. :P "Noooo, I only rolled a loyalist because I'm a lore completionist, I swear! NoOoOOoOOOooOOoOo!"
* gets flushed into the maw *

[scubi666stacy]

It's called Shadowlands. An entire expansion for it. The non-loyalist ending would've been Tyrande leading us in glorious combat to cut that bitch's head off, and dangle it in gates of New Darnassus.

Would not mind that (mainly playing Horde). Though Tyrande is not my favorite character and in the "wrong" faction, she's still better than any Windrunner - no matter if alive or undead.

Though I would be curious what the story has in store for me on my Forsaken alt, where I played the whole war campaign with the loyalist angle. That is, if there is any future story from that angle. I don't expect much if anything.

[CrawlFromThePit]

You literally admitted you stopped paying attention. You don't get to pretend your opinion is an informed one when you're literally not reading any of it.
This is not me being snide or trying to put you down. Thats just literally how it works.

Sorry to make a very serious-face comparison, but I personally read the Bible, not because I'm religious, but because I want to be able to argue with people who take it as the end-all of moral values and a guideline on how to live. I have an informed opinion on it.

I'll gladly talk with you on matters concerning the Warcraft story until Mists of Pandaria. After that, sorry, you've chosen to bail out, so you're no longer part of the conversation.

And I have extensive experience in narrative scriptwriting and story telling. I'll gladly talk with you about the many aspects in which the narrative of this game became a total mess from the dialogues (arguably that was always bad but more bearable in the past) to pacing, to plot twists, to character development, unfolding of events and the importance of consistency and keeping your hooks relevant or at least creating a "rotation" between them to captivate the audience and leading them to a conclusion.

The evolution of the Warcraft story lost a lot of this, mainly its conclusion, which was the end of WotLK. I don't know if you watched shows like Weeds or Orange is the new Black, I like to bring up Jenji Kohan's work because it's the best comparison with WoW, same narrative model. It starts off strong with a real goal to reach, once that goal is reached the story has nothing else to tell the viewers but the appeal was so big at the start that the demand is still there, yet there is nothing to offer, so it becomes a garbage bag that get dragged along the driveway, it tears open and shit falls off all over the place. Weeds and Orange is the new Black had AMAZING first few seasons and then it just kept going beyond the actual conclusion.

WoW is the exact same thing. The game was done after WotLK. I kept readin the story and quests just like I kept watching Weeds and Orange is the new Black, but with withering interest since the quality was lowering all the time until eventually the series just get stopped or in the case of the game simply never ends so now I just see a few words and realise the topic is still meaningless stretching of bad character development pulling the carcass of a dying universe with no goal behind itself, sacrificing characters with wasted potential along the way.

[matrix123mko]

Draenei: Bitch, STFU.

I just wanted to say that genocide isn't anything special in WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's finish the job, then.

You wanted them to get night elf treatment. Night elves lost nothing.

On that note, shouldn't you be all for that? Those are Humans and High Elves who were nearly wiped out by the Scourge.

Arthas was right. So is Sylvanas when she kills Alliance.

They're a tribe, not a race.

Jungle trolls were slaughtered by factions as whole.

Apparently not such a big deal if BfA is any indication.

From empire to small state. This is a big deal, just like fall of Goria and so on.

Which are.. Alliance? Plus I'm fairly sure you don't want to act like the centaur particularly got away with the things they did, right?

I wanted to say that being nearly extinct is normal and night elf fans have nothing to complain about.

Well, they're the ones who nearly got wiped out by a player faction that gets to hop away scot-free, so..

This changes nothing. Really.

- - - Updated - - -

You probably forgot since you were trying to kill all the NPC Night Elves in Val'sharah while this was happening but we literally SAW Illidan and Malfurion as babies. There are notouriously few children in the game world, I think about 3-5 in all of Stormwind, so the amount of NPCs runnign around does not corelate to the actual amount of children. Else ALL races would have died out by now.
And besides, the Night Elf civilians and shop keepers haven't done anything to you either, you just look for excuses.

First of all, elves shouldn't have many children or they would overpopulate Azeroth. They do not.
The shopkeepers support Alliance economy.
Also, all night elves should die.

Kay, so you are fine being "nothing"? Good for you. Besides this point, she has not devulged her plan to anyone, so you factually cannot know she is right with what she is doing unless you think she is ALWAYS right with no capability to be wrong. That opens a whole other can of worms.

From perspective of what we knew in 8.1, she was completely right. She used plausible tactics to defeat the Alliance.

And in doing so, saved your character's life, so you can stick around being cartoonishly evil. Yeah he made a mistake there.

He saved Jaina. That's it. Great.

Good, at least you realize it. So it is the female elf-factor that seperates them, I guess?

She doesn't speak about honor. This is a great factor.

We are going to the Shadowlands to put them back in order... not to create endless chaos... and this answer directly shows why your character should be imprisoned in the Maw

What order? Shadowlands has always been a horrible mess. Existence of Forsworn proves that.

Forsaken ARE the Scourge, they also are former members of the Alliance. As were the High Elves, who were not called Blood Elves at that time (you probably should know this considering your dark goddess was a High Elf)
And well, if you wish to go this far back, then the Night Elves also nearly died out during the Sundering and the War of the Ancients and the Humans nearly got exterminated by the Scourge as well loosing two Kingdoms to it.

This doesn't change the fact that night elves didn't suffer more than other races. Alliance just plays victims like always.

The difference is that these acts were commited by evil entities or evil people clearly identified as such and made the killable end bosses of several raids. Meanwhile people still maintain that Sylvanas just did what was right and should not be judged by normal morality, following her example because they know they cannot be held accountable in the same way an NPC can.
I only advocate that player characters that feel the need to be evil monsters share the fate of the other evil monsters we destroyed for the sake of our world.

This is sign of horrible writing. It might be good for fairy tales but it is unfit for anything else. Evil is not weak and thus it should not always lose. Warcraft 3 was great because not only paladins had to be victors. There is the time to stop. We need raids when we kill godlike beings that serve "innocents". We need storylines that do not require us to beg for forgiveness if we kill someone. Sylvanas is the symbol of that as she was the one that we could join, even for a moment. I would join anyone but factions: N'zoth, Sargeras, Sylvanas or even Zalazane.

[schwank05]

I just want to cause the destruction of Azeroth. O am playing the Evil faction afterall or at least that is what I signed up for 15 years ago.

[Biske]

I just want to cause the destruction of Azeroth. O am playing the Evil faction afterall or at least that is what I signed up for 15 years ago.

Horde isn't supposed to be evil, though, even though WoW does a poor job of showing that. In Warcraft 3, the whole Horde story was orcs overcoming their past and freeing themselves from the demonic taint, and joining forces with the tauren, one of the most peaceful races on the face of Azeroth.

[Raisei]

I just wanted to say that genocide isn't anything special in WoW.

The difference however is completely lost on you. If an NPC faction commits genocide it is in turn destroyed. The Scourge and Lich King (Arthas) were destroyed, the Burning Legion was destroyed, the Old Gods will be (responsible indirectly for countless death through Deathwing in Cata). However, this is not the case here, because it is a player faction doing the genociding.

Because of this detail we now have a player faction responsible for genocide and by definition they cannot be destroyed for it because we cannot delete the Horde from the game. Hence every loyalist scum gets to smugly proclaim how Sylvanas was right and they would gladly have eaten roasted Night Elf babies. You can only do that because you have to fear NO REPERCUSSIONS. You get to be the untouchable villian.
If you were an NPC then your head would have been spiked on Orgrimmars walls 5 seconds after your Banshee Queen pissed off and left you behind.

This is (apart from being digusted with idiots that cheer for murdering innocent people) why this whole loyalist crap is so infuriating for the Alliance playerbase. Bad enough that we are forced to again lay all the blame at Sylvanas feet and make up with the rest of the Horde but then seeing people actively defending and enjoying these atrocities and knowing that they are going to get away with it completely unscathed is sickening.
The idea was that you are "Bannerbae". Absolutely loyal to the Banshee UNTIL she proclaims how you are less to her then the dirt under her nails, then you were supposed to turn, but it doesn't work, nothign works on you people, so you should now be held in the same contempt as the Banshee herself.

It shows that Blizzard should never have caved to the demands for a loyalist storyline, but if they had to then there needed to be a negative payout. In the World of Warcraft you do not get to be an evil monster and live without even a shred of remorse or repentence.

Considering there obviously is an overarching morality that decides where you go after your death in the next expansion I really hope that there is something. Maybe a different path in Revendreth that forces you to repent or something.

You wanted them to get night elf treatment. Night elves lost nothing.

Except their homes, their land, a few thousand people of their race, leaving them with just a few refugess now... that is NOT nothing. But you probably do not acknowledge them as people. Genocide is a lot more fun that way after all!

Arthas was right. So is Sylvanas when she kills Alliance.

The point that you still aren't getting is that Sylvanas does not want to kill just the Alliance. She only started the war so that both sides would kill each other, she has no loyalty to the Horde and never did. You were just a convenient little shield she could use to hide behind. Blizzard has been trying to make this clear again and again and again. They literally spelled it out for you in the loyalist ending. It doesn't matter if you want to be an evil bastard and how much you kiss her rotting feet, SHE WANTS TO KILL EVERYONE, you are NOT going to be an exception.
I really think that Blizzard might have started a fanatical cult here with how some people refuse to see the truth, not sure they will be able to undo this... all their tries seem to do be in vain.

From empire to small state. This is a big deal, just like fall of Goria and so on.

You mean like when the Night Elf Empire fell in the Sundering and the remaining people were forced to live in forests (with the exception of the bubbled Suramar)? Kinda feel like the Zandalari got better off with their island and towers of gold. Not to mention that the Night Elves actually learned from their ordeal and became a lot more humble and abolished the practices that brought doom upon them. The Zandalari are just as arrogant as when their empire spanned the world.

I wanted to say that being nearly extinct is normal and night elf fans have nothing to complain about.

Since nearly all of the examples you mentioned root back to things the Horde races have done (Scourge = started by Ner'zhul mind controlling Arthas, Return of the Burning Legion = done by Gul'dan, destruction of Gilneas = done by Garrosh and Sylvanas) I heavily disagree. I feel if we had not spared the Orcs after the second war we could have avoided a ton of disasters. So we do legitimately complain that our mercy is paid back like this and wonder why we are not wiping out the Horde already if all it does is drawn evil monsters like your character into their ranks.

First of all, elves shouldn't have many children or they would overpopulate Azeroth. They do not.
The shopkeepers support Alliance economy.
Also, all night elves should die.

This logic is disgusting. So it is okay to murder civilians because they support the economy and children because there could be too many? Geezus F. Christ.

From perspective of what we knew in 8.1, she was completely right. She used plausible tactics to defeat the Alliance.

She did at the start. Then a dying Night Elf dared use the word "hope" in her vicinity and Sylvanas had a psychopathic episode.

He saved Jaina. That's it. Great.

You are ingoring the obvious facts by now. Sylvanas would have kept the war going until both Horde and Alliance are dead, she even tried to kill you already when she send you to Nazjatar, she clearly states as much to Azshara. By stopping the war Baine, Saurfang and Anduin saved the lifes of everyone. Yours included. But feel free to continue living in your dream world.

She doesn't speak about honor. This is a great factor.

Yep, someone that wants to kill babies and shopkeeper would likely see honor as a hinderence. I wonder what made you join the Horde in the first place. They are all about that shit, ever since they got rid of the demon blood.

This is sign of horrible writing. It might be good for fairy tales but it is unfit for anything else. Evil is not weak and thus it should not always lose. Warcraft 3 was great because not only paladins had to be victors. There is the time to stop. We need raids when we kill godlike beings that serve "innocents". We need storylines that do not require us to beg for forgiveness if we kill someone. Sylvanas is the symbol of that as she was the one that we could join, even for a moment. I would join anyone but factions: N'zoth, Sargeras, Sylvanas or even Zalazane.

All fiction revolves around this. Evil does not win in the end. It can be stretched and kept going for a while, giving the evil guys some wins along the way, but they will get their comeupance. Not to mention that your wish to kill good gods is just factually stupid, but you obviously are one of those that just want to see the world burn, so I just have one last thing to ask:
If you join any of those faction you mentioned, could you please post it here so I can join another one?

[matrix123mko]

The difference however is completely lost on you. If an NPC faction commits genocide it is in turn destroyed. The Scourge and Lich King (Arthas) were destroyed, the Burning Legion was destroyed, the Old Gods will be (responsible indirectly for countless death through Deathwing in Cata). However, this is not the case here, because it is a player faction doing the genociding.

Because of this detail we now have a player faction responsible for genocide and by definition they cannot be destroyed for it because we cannot delete the Horde from the game. Hence every loyalist scum gets to smugly proclaim how Sylvanas was right and they would gladly have eaten roasted Night Elf babies. You can only do that because you have to fear NO REPERCUSSIONS. You get to be the untouchable villian.
If you were an NPC then your head would have been spiked on Orgrimmars walls 5 seconds after your Banshee Queen pissed off and left you behind.

The demand for repercussions for that is stupid. It is not logical and thus it is not necessary to make all people responsible for genocide slain by their victims.

Except their homes, their land, a few thousand people of their race, leaving them with just a few refugess now... that is NOT nothing. But you probably do not acknowledge them as people. Genocide is a lot more fun that way after all!

They still exist. What makes it worse than what happened to let's say, orcs. Don't you remember that their planet exploded while Alliance made them slaves?

You mean like when the Night Elf Empire fell in the Sundering and the remaining people were forced to live in forests (with the exception of the bubbled Suramar)? Kinda feel like the Zandalari got better off with their island and towers of gold. Not to mention that the Night Elves actually learned from their ordeal and became a lot more humble and abolished the practices that brought doom upon them. The Zandalari are just as arrogant as when their empire spanned the world.

Night elves lived in forests like animals because they wanted that. Blood elves might have laughed at them.

Since nearly all of the examples you mentioned root back to things the Horde races have done (Scourge = started by Ner'zhul mind controlling Arthas, Return of the Burning Legion = done by Gul'dan, destruction of Gilneas = done by Garrosh and Sylvanas) I heavily disagree. I feel if we had not spared the Orcs after the second war we could have avoided a ton of disasters. So we do legitimately complain that our mercy is paid back like this and wonder why we are not wiping out the Horde already if all it does is drawn evil monsters like your character into their ranks.

There is still nothing to complain. Night elves are not special. Also, they are responsible for Sundering.

She did at the start. Then a dying Night Elf dared use the word "hope" in her vicinity and Sylvanas had a psychopathic episode.

Burning of Teldrassil was plausible tactic. It removed northern front for a while.

You are ingoring the obvious facts by now. Sylvanas would have kept the war going until both Horde and Alliance are dead, she even tried to kill you already when she send you to Nazjatar, she clearly states as much to Azshara. By stopping the war Baine, Saurfang and Anduin saved the lifes of everyone. Yours included. But feel free to continue living in your dream world.

They shouldn't have been saved.

Yep, someone that wants to kill babies and shopkeeper would likely see honor as a hinderence. I wonder what made you join the Horde in the first place. They are all about that shit, ever since they got rid of the demon blood.

There was hope to rebuild Horde and bring back Gul'dan's ideals.

All fiction revolves around this. Evil does not win in the end. It can be stretched and kept going for a while, giving the evil guys some wins along the way, but they will get their comeupance.

There can be eternal conflict. It is logical aswell.

Not to mention that your wish to kill good gods is just factually stupid

Why? You want to kill evil gods and I may want to kill good gods.

If you join any of those faction you mentioned, could you please post it here so I can join another one?

Currently I am not in team N'zoth but that won't matter soon.

[TickTickTick]

This thread is a massive sadcringe full of people being waaaaay in the character of their "side". There is enjoying the story, and then there is crossing the line and acting like a maniac. I've seen extremists acting this way talking politics, but lore of some game? Ugh.

[Trassk]

This thread is a massive sadcringe full of people being waaaaay in the character of their "side". There is enjoying the story, and then there is crossing the line and acting like a maniac. I've seen extremists acting this way talking politics, but lore of some game? Ugh.

It's honestly laughable, but kind on interesting, like seeing a house burn down, seeing the reactions loyalists have had to this outcome.

What's most curious though is the question, did these people expect some kind of reward? Did they expect some form of satisfaction from the path they choose?

It reminds me of Undertale, how in that game, you can choose the ending of the game based on your actions. If you play the game without killing anyone, you get the true pacifist ending and things end on a good footing, however if you complete the game again on genocide route, you kill everyone and are left with nothing, and even if you reset the game, you game file is forever tainted by your actions so you can never get a true happy ending even if you reset and start again.

That's the mind of sylvanas loyalists, people who wanna 'join the dark side' but are then frustrated things didn't go the way they wanted or got anything out of it. Or their just people who only did so because they think sylvanas is hot and leave all other morals at the door, only to find following their apathetic waifu doesn't, shock and surprise, give them any satisfaction in the end.

People following such a character never deserves any kind of reward, or at least should only be rewarded with the same apathetic disdain they willingly gave out themselves

[Raisei]

The demand for repercussions for that is stupid. It is not logical and thus it is not necessary to make all people responsible for genocide slain by their victims.

Because justice for the victims of a horrible crime is not logical? Gee, you open my eyes. We should let all murderers, rapists, psychopaths and generally all criminals out of their cells. Your "logic" is bafflingly stupid, I dearly hope you are not asked to make any decisions in real life.

They still exist. What makes it worse than what happened to let's say, orcs. Don't you remember that their planet exploded while Alliance made them slaves?

There is still nothing to complain. Night elves are not special. Also, they are responsible for Sundering.

1) The Alliance made them slaves AFTER the orcs came to OUR world and tried to wipe out all life in the service of literally the devil of Warcraft. But considering your warped sense of logic and justice this was probablöy totally fine and the Alliance are bastards for resisting and punishing the orcs for that.

2) It is quite telling how you claim that Draenor exploded without mentioning that it was the Orcs own fault that it did, while you point out that the Sundering was the fault of the Night Elves. I would say you are biased, but really, that word feels much to weak.

Night elves lived in forests like animals because they wanted that. Blood elves might have laughed at them.

Of course, after building cities like Suramar and castles like Black Rook Hold, being masters of arcane magics and all that, they must look like completely uncivilized savages. Easy to see. (There is sarcasm here, can you spot it?)

Burning of Teldrassil was plausible tactic. It removed northern front for a while.

You did not even read the novels in which Sylvanas tactic was laid out, huh? She wanted to capture Teldrassil and use the people as hostages against the Alliance. But her psychotic break ruined HER OWN PLAN.

They shouldn't have been saved.

Again if you feel this way, go ahead and delete your character and account, because you would have been among the victims too. And the game would have ended. It is amazing how you can close your eyes and ears to this. You must have basically gone through 8.2.5 shouting "Lalalalala" whenever Sylvanas opened her mouth.

There was hope to rebuild Horde and bring back Gul'dan's ideals.

His ideals of serving Sargeras as a slave and wiping out all life in the universe? Great ideals, he is a true charmer.

Why? You want to kill evil gods and I may want to kill good gods.
Currently I am not in team N'zoth but that won't matter soon.

Yeah I get it, you just want to be EVUUUUULLLL, but even evil people should at least have a sense for self preservation, which you completely lack.

Considering the Horde hasn`t been evil since the second war, I have to wonder again what keeps you around. The Horde will never be as evil as you want it to be, because your idea of evil is killing the very planet under your feet and laughing evilishly while you burn with your victims. Only a very select few people would go along with that...

[matrix123mko]

Because justice for the victims of a horrible crime is not logical? Gee, you open my eyes. We should let all murderers, rapists, psychopaths and generally all criminals out of their cells. Your "logic" is bafflingly stupid, I dearly hope you are not asked to make any decisions in real life.

It is not. The logic is that the stronger usually win. It is normal that villains can escape "justice". They can hide, bribe the judge or just abuse the corrupt government. Situation when there is some "divine justice" for everything is something that doesn't happen naturally and thus it doesn't have to happen in WoW. It is not one of fantasy universes where good God intervenes to force "justice". It is just a weird series of coincidences that makes Alliance and Horde always prevail.

The Alliance made them slaves AFTER the orcs came to OUR world and tried to wipe out all life in the service of literally the devil of Warcraft. But considering your warped sense of logic and justice this was probablöy totally fine and the Alliance are bastards for resisting and punishing the orcs for that.

Azeroth is not Alliance world. It was conquered by corrupted titanforged. Orcs(also corrupted titanforged) served Sargeras but they weren't really aware of that. And, of course, Sargeras was not literally devil, he was more like inquisitor who kills real evil.

It is quite telling how you claim that Draenor exploded without mentioning that it was the Orcs own fault that it did, while you point out that the Sundering was the fault of the Night Elves. I would say you are biased, but really, that word feels much to weak.

Both races had some reasons to cause mass destruction.

Of course, after building cities like Suramar and castles like Black Rook Hold, being masters of arcane magics and all that, they must look like completely uncivilized savages. Easy to see. (There is sarcasm here, can you spot it?)

Keep in mind that it was the highborne who designed all of that. Tyrande's clan of elves consisted mostly of peasants and townsfolk.

You did not even read the novels in which Sylvanas tactic was laid out, huh? She wanted to capture Teldrassil and use the people as hostages against the Alliance. But her psychotic break ruined HER OWN PLAN.

I am not sure if it was her actual plan. After all, she got the precious souls for her new grandpa.

His ideals of serving Sargeras as a slave and wiping out all life in the universe? Great ideals, he is a true charmer.

He was to be free from Sargeras. He just was too foolish to escape from his grasp. His ideals was that there are no ideals.

Yeah I get it, you just want to be EVUUUUULLLL, but even evil people should at least have a sense for self preservation, which you completely lack.

Considering the Horde hasn`t been evil since the second war, I have to wonder again what keeps you around. The Horde will never be as evil as you want it to be, because your idea of evil is killing the very planet under your feet and laughing evilishly while you burn with your victims. Only a very select few people would go along with that...

It is Blizzard's fault that we have only two possibilities. I would have nothing against being Azshara/Lei Shen kind of evul. Conquering and enslaving is fine. However, Sylvanas is currently the only option.

[schwank05]

Horde isn't supposed to be evil, though, even though WoW does a poor job of showing that. In Warcraft 3, the whole Horde story was orcs overcoming their past and freeing themselves from the demonic taint, and joining forces with the tauren, one of the most peaceful races on the face of Azeroth.

Yeah, I could care less about the Orcs and Tauren. I am a Forsaken/ Undead Fanboy have been since the game release.

[mickybrighteyes]

Because of this detail we now have a player faction responsible for genocide and by definition they cannot be destroyed for it because we cannot delete the Horde from the game. Hence every loyalist scum gets to smugly proclaim how Sylvanas was right and they would gladly have eaten roasted Night Elf babies. You can only do that because you have to fear NO REPERCUSSIONS. You get to be the untouchable villian.
If you were an NPC then your head would have been spiked on Orgrimmars walls 5 seconds after your Banshee Queen pissed off and left you behind.

it seems you're ignorant of the fact that this is NOT a new thing... and is not unique to horde...

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I devoured the Warcraft story up until it turned to objective garbage with Cata and MoP, now they don't get my attention, only my clicks to move along.

Just because you don't like something does not make it objective fact. In my opinion MoP had some of the best stories in WoW.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Just because you don't like something does not make it objective fact. In my opinion MoP had some of the best stories in WoW.

There's technical aspects of narrative storytelling that make it objectively bad. But just like music, it's 1) not a big deal if people enjoy badly made products and 2) the general public doesn't like arguing about what's good or bad because most people don't have the knowledge to take on this discussion and it serves no purpose because of point 1.

[Dark Succ]

All fiction revolves around this. Evil does not win in the end.

Warhammer 40K sends it's regards.

- - - Updated - - -

They still exist. What makes it worse than what happened to let's say, orcs. Don't you remember that their planet exploded while Alliance made them slaves?

All that shit began with Ner'zhul. The First Horde, Destruction of Draenor, everything can be stretched back to that guy.

There was hope to rebuild Horde and bring back Gul'dan's ideals..

What the fuck man? You would see all of Orgrim & Thrall's efforts of rebuilding the Horde in the aftermath of the Second War go to waste? Gul'dan's ways destroyed the Horde during the Second War. The same way Sylvanas would have, if she didn't shit on her own plans.

This makes me realize that while TBC was the beginning of shit lore, Cata was it's death, since the concept of Horde returning back to it's chaotic evil roots began in Cata with Garrosh.

[Temp name]

Warhammer 40K sends it's regards.

Have you been keeping up? Guilimann is back and wrecking Chaos shit.. And even before that, it was more of a stalemate than them winning

Also Chaos isn't inherently evil, it's a manifestation of sentient races' subconscious. They also represent change in the world, whether good or bad

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

There's technical aspects of narrative storytelling that make it objectively bad. But just like music, it's 1) not a big deal if people enjoy badly made products and 2) the general public doesn't like arguing about what's good or bad because most people don't have the knowledge to take on this discussion and it serves no purpose because of point 1.

Yeah I just can't take you seriously at all. It's obvious you don't even understand the word "objectively" or you do but enjoy pushing your own opinions as fact. Either way you'll never be able to convince anyone your opinions are fact.

[Dark Succ]

Have you been keeping up? Guilimann is back and wrecking Chaos shit.. And even before that, it was more of a stalemate than them winning

Also Chaos isn't inherently evil, it's a manifestation of sentient races' subconscious. They also represent change in the world, whether good or bad

Admittedly not. BUT MUH GRIMDARK