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  1. #1

    Blizzard unfamiliar with World PvP "culture" - How to imp Warmode

    Im extremely suspicious Blizzard devs have ZERO idea about World PvP "culture".

    First i need you to understand several things about the current warmode system:

    1) "Group PvP" is a lie
    What mostly happens is several 5-man groups join in one location and farm the other faction as if it was a raid.

    2) And on top of that, there is this "fantasy" that when one 5-man group kills a "solo player", that "solo" player will look to join another 5-man group to counter the enemy and begin a full out war in open world.
    You know what trully happens?
    That "solo" player revives and goes about his business...

    What i mean is, guys, "group content" is designed to "prey on the weak" and kill "solo players"...farm them...as fast as posiible...the same way you do a PVE quest. Exactly the same.

    My suspicions were confirmed by this "blizzquotes".

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Now, that said, we've definitely tried to make sure that you're not really incentivized to form a raid group when there's ten people. The quests that you get credit for, or other rewards that you get generally aren't given to raid groups. I think party versus party combat, with parties hunting others, and getting assassin benefits and rewards for that, that's more what feels better for everybody
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The PvP quest “Against Overwhelming Odds” can no longer be completed while in a raid.
    Developers’ Note: The intent of this quest is to incite aggression amongst players on the under represented faction throughout war mode. Allowing it to be completed in a raid focused too much of that aggression in one place in one large group. This change spreads the fight out into more parts of the world.
    As you can see...Blizzard believes in group content as a concept.
    BUT "Group Pvp is a lie" and only promotes doing PvP as if it was a PvE quest, as fast as possbile for the rewards.

    --------

    HOW TO IMPROVE WARMODE?

    Acknowledge "solo PvP".

    Only accept it exists and give us content for that.
    Im not saying to design the entire game around "solo PvP"
    I understand there are people who enjoy Group PvP, and sometimes good skirmishes do happen.
    But i just ask for Blizzard to acknowledge the lone wolf experience.

    HOW?

    I understand any system Blizzard can come up with to promote a solo experience can be abused.
    But make it as inconvenient as possible.
    Blood coin system from Timeless Isle is an idea.
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2019-11-26 at 01:18 PM.

  2. #2
    I get it, you want PvP without actually feeling like you could be attacked at any moment. There's a really easy fix for this. Just turn Warmode off and duel people outside of cities. That's the amount of "solo PvP" there should be.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    I get it, you want PvP without actually feeling like you could be attacked at any moment. There's a really easy fix for this. Just turn Warmode off and duel people outside of cities. That's the amount of "solo PvP" there should be.
    Are you familiar with the reality of doing World PvP quests for rewards?
    Have you done this quests?

    If you have done them, you would know the reality of the situation They are "farmed" as if they were a PvE quest.

    "Group World PvP is a lie" IMO
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2019-11-26 at 01:41 PM.

  4. #4
    Part of the issue is imbalance, I think it would be hard to fix anything with that issue.

  5. #5
    I somewhat agree. In the past there were systems that promoted more small scale, meaningful skirmishes. Of special note is the pvp objectives in classic Silithus (the glowing sand goals, azerite foreshadowing lol?), the pvp towers in epl and later in hellfire peninsula, and nagrand's Halaa objective.

    The common ground was that there was a point of contension which distributed players so making big groups for it wasnt always worth it (the Silithus sands are an especially great example, cuzz only one player could carry it and get the honor rewards). They were all near constant, meaning one the new hype went down it wasnt camped by raids who wanted to farm honor, and while they were rewarding, they werent the absolute best source of honor/mounts/etc, so people did it as a pastime and didn't feel obligated. I don't think solo pvp was their goal, rather small scale skirmishes, sometimes solo, sometimes groups, without one side being dominant or having much incentive to farm it. From what i remember, it worked wonders, and added flavor to the pvp outdoors.

  6. #6
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Remove all PvE bonuses from warmode so only people actually consenting to world pvp are in the mode.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Im extremely suspicious Blizzard devs have ZERO idea about World PvP "culture".
    Agreed. I think that Blizzard have this romanticised idea of World PvP as some kind of glorious contest in which players fight for faction pride and honour, with players seeking out the strongest opponents to test their mettle against.

    In reality it's a bunch of cowards and bullies who pretty much only want to get their rewards asap.

    Almost no one doing warmode cares for a fair fight, let alone a challenging fight. People will attack other players when:
    • They can clearly see that the other player is significantly less geared
    • The enemy player has his hands full trying to fight off mobs (especially elites)
    • They outnumber the enemy

    I honestly don't think that Warmode brings much to the game except for a very small fringe group of players who actually enjoy the WPvP experience (complete with getting destroyed and corpse camped for 2 hours). Blizzard, because they have an infatuation with the idea of WPvP being at the heart of Warcraft, have basically bribed the playerbase into participation by offering better WQ rewards and a bunch of unique achievements and rewards that require you to go into Warmode.

    In the end what Warmode becomes is an environment with a ton of players who are trying their best to avoid any WPvP (unless they happen to come across a clearly poorly equipped enemy), whose only purpose is to be fodder for the small minority of players who get their kicks out of finding and killing other players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Remove all PvE bonuses from warmode so only people actually consenting to world pvp are in the mode.
    Agreed. Really, the only bonus for playing in Warmode should be the prospect of getting honorable kills. People should be there because they want to engage in WPvP, not because they want to get some achievement done, earn a pet or mount or toy, or get +10% more WQ rewards.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Remove all PvE bonuses from warmode so only people actually consenting to world pvp are in the mode.
    Turning on warmode is consent for whatever follows.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Agreed. I think that Blizzard have this romanticised idea of World PvP as some kind of glorious contest in which players fight for faction pride and honour, with players seeking out the strongest opponents to test their mettle against.

    In reality it's a bunch of cowards and bullies who pretty much only want to get their rewards asap.

    Almost no one doing warmode cares for a fair fight, let alone a challenging fight. People will attack other players when:
    • They can clearly see that the other player is significantly less geared
    • The enemy player has his hands full trying to fight off mobs (especially elites)
    • They outnumber the enemy

    I honestly don't think that Warmode brings much to the game except for a very small fringe group of players who actually enjoy the WPvP experience (complete with getting destroyed and corpse camped for 2 hours). Blizzard, because they have an infatuation with the idea of WPvP being at the heart of Warcraft, have basically bribed the playerbase into participation by offering better WQ rewards and a bunch of unique achievements and rewards that require you to go into Warmode.

    In the end what Warmode becomes is an environment with a ton of players who are trying their best to avoid any WPvP (unless they happen to come across a clearly poorly equipped enemy), whose only purpose is to be fodder for the small minority of players who get their kicks out of finding and killing other players.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Agreed. Really, the only bonus for playing in Warmode should be the prospect of getting honorable kills. People should be there because they want to engage in WPvP, not because they want to get some achievement done, earn a pet or mount or toy, or get +10% more WQ rewards.
    I agree with you on everything...but i think Blizzard actually needs to "bribe" PvE players into Warmode at this point.
    Im pretty sure, as it is right now, without the "bribe"...there would be no people in Warmode

  10. #10
    Simple solution: separate single players and grouped players into different phases. Also separate friends and guildies into different phases, so players won't play this system by just running ungrouped together.

  11. #11
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Turning on warmode is consent for whatever follows.
    Not really.

    The PvE rewards are what turn people into prostitution.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I agree with you on everything...but i think Blizzard actually needs to "bribe" PvE players into Warmode at this point.
    Blizzard bribing PvE players is exactly the problem. You don't fix a broken gameplay system by feeding it bribed victims who want to have nothing to do with world pvp.
    Im pretty sure, as it is right now, without the "bribe"...there would be no people in Warmode
    And that highlights how fucking stupid the whole world pvp concept is.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I agree with you on everything...but i think Blizzard actually needs to "bribe" PvE players into Warmode at this point.
    If they want Warmode to be a success, yes, absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Im pretty sure, as it is right now, without the "bribe"...there would be no people in Warmode
    And that would be a problem why exactly?

  13. #13
    Well someone else has said, Warmode should not reward PVE. I don't care for that 25% extra gold or AP. Warmode should award honor and items that can be turned in for PVP things.

    Easy fix.

  14. #14
    @Puupi @Raelbo

    World pvp is like a jungle.
    You need the "preys" and the "hunters"

    If you want to have a lot of "preys" in the environment, the bribe system is a good idea...in the sense that BAD players can actually have preys.

    LOL, im not saying all PvE players are bad...but by making low geared players visit warmode, you are creating "preys" for bad pvp players.

    I like the idea...because im a World PvP'er scum.

  15. #15
    Here is an easy fix:

    Warmode bonus gives 15% extra honor.

    The few people who would choose warmode ON are your "World PvP culture". Faction imbalance would be a non issue, since you would not be forced for your PvE gametime to opt in for warmode.

    If you do warmode and call your self a PVP player, you also might want to solo old expansion raids SOLO and call yourself a progression raider, because thats how silly warmode really is.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Im extremely suspicious Blizzard devs have ZERO idea about World PvP "culture".

    First i need you to understand several things about the current warmode system:

    1) "Group PvP" is a lie
    What mostly happens is several 5-man groups join in one location and farm the other faction as if it was a raid.

    2) And on top of that, there is this "fantasy" that when one 5-man group kills a "solo player", that "solo" player will look to join another 5-man group to counter the enemy and begin a full out war in open world.
    You know what trully happens?
    That "solo" player revives and goes about his business...

    What i mean is, guys, "group content" is designed to "prey on the weak" and kill "solo players"...farm them...as fast as posiible...the same way you do a PVE quest. Exactly the same.

    My suspicions were confirmed by this "blizzquotes".



    As you can see...Blizzard believes in group content as a concept.
    BUT "Group Pvp is a lie" and only promotes doing PvP as if it was a PvE quest, as fast as possbile for the rewards.

    --------

    HOW TO IMPROVE WARMODE?

    Acknowledge "solo PvP".

    Only accept it exists and give us content for that.
    Im not saying to design the entire game around "solo PvP"
    I understand there are people who enjoy Group PvP, and sometimes good skirmishes do happen.
    But i just ask for Blizzard to acknowledge the lone wolf experience.

    HOW?

    I understand any system Blizzard can come up with to promote a solo experience can be abused.
    But make it as inconvenient as possible.
    Blood coin system from Timeless Isle is an idea.
    This makes no sense whatsoever. How could 1v1 world PvP in an open world that hosts a big amount of players be a thing?? I don't even .. That's what BG's and Arenas are for.

    World PVP is a "lie", it has always been like this. Even on balanced servers it was mostly one faction outnumbering the fuck of another in a part of the world while the other faction did the same in another part. Like it is on my classic server atm, alliance controls DM while horde controls BRM. Want to get near DM as horde or near BRM as alliance? Good luck with that.

    The fair small group vs small group are extremely rare. And there's the few raids vs other few raids which is just a back and forth bore with whoever is not careful and remains behind for a second dies.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    Simple solution: separate single players and grouped players into different phases. Also separate friends and guildies into different phases, so players won't play this system by just running ungrouped together.
    While I agree with the sentiment, I don't think such a system would be very practical because players would find workarounds. What you basically need is an intelligent monitor that can figure out if players are working together in spite of not being grouped and then shove them together into the "group" phase.

    Thinking out the box a bit, maybe a good system would be for the game to have a mode where the game forms groups with nearby players of the same faction out in the open world. Possible mechanisms could include an opt-in switch where it just happens automatically with any other players who are also have it switched on. Alternatively a pop up box could appear whenever you're near other players. Eg "There are other Horde players nearby. Would you like to group up with them?". If you move out of range from the group, the game can ask if you'd like to leave the group/disband.

    Speaking from personal experience, the reason I don't tend to group up with random players I run into is entirely because it's too much hassle. I basically have to pause with what I am doing and whisper the other player asking if they want to group up. Then I have to wait for them to stop what they're doing and answer, which could be anything from an immediate group invite, to "sure", to "sorry, in a bg/dungeon/lfr queue" to "I am done here, maybe next time". A game system that basically condenses this process down to a single click to opt in would, IMO, be a significant benefit to players, not just in Warmode, but for all open world content.

  18. #18
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Here is an easy fix:

    Warmode bonus gives 15% extra honor.

    The few people who would choose warmode ON are your "World PvP culture". Faction imbalance would be a non issue, since you would not be forced for your PvE gametime to opt in for warmode.

    If you do warmode and call your self a PVP player, you also might want to solo old expansion raids SOLO and call yourself a progression raider, because thats how silly warmode really is.
    Derp.

    Okay, so your solution is that warmode gives 15% extra honor.

    Now here is the question: 15% extra compared to what?

    Warmode off? Guess what, if you don't have warmode on, you are gaining exactly 0 honor - so 15% extra doesn't really do much.

    So you just want to increase honor rewards by 15%.

    The real "solution" to war mode is to remove all rewards. There shouldn't be any rewards, the world pvp itself should be the reward.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Here is an easy fix:

    Warmode bonus gives 15% extra honor.

    The few people who would choose warmode ON are your "World PvP culture". Faction imbalance would be a non issue, since you would not be forced for your PvE gametime to opt in for warmode.

    If you do warmode and call your self a PVP player, you also might want to solo old expansion raids SOLO and call yourself a progression raider, because thats how silly warmode really is.
    I do agree to this, but not 15%, at least 100% if not 200% and rewards tied to it, similar to what we had in BfA. I get they might want to encourage people to quest with PVP on but yeah, giving bonuses in other areas other than pvp related seems to be causing other problems.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    This makes no sense whatsoever. How could 1v1 world PvP in an open world that hosts a big amount of players be a thing?? I don't even .. That's what BG's and Arenas are for.
    I grew up on the golden age of World PvP videos on warcraftmovies...and ive tried to recreate them by myself a million times.
    Its pretty easy to have a 1 VS several people situation.

    Only if the zone is populated for "reward reasons" is hard to have a 1v1.

    Even in BG's you can have 1v1's i try to have them all the time but is rare there.

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