Blizzard unfamiliar with World PvP "culture" - How to imp Warmode

[Raelbo]

@Puupi @Raelbo

World pvp is like a jungle.
You need the "preys" and the "hunters"

If you want to have a lot of "preys" in the environment, the bribe system is a good idea...in the sense that BAD players can actually have preys.

LOL, im not saying all PvE players are bad...but by making low geared players visit warmode, you are creating "preys" for bad pvp players.

I like the idea...because im a World PvP'er scum.

I hear you.

Ultimately though I am just not convinced that it's a great idea for the health of the game. I am all for adults making our own decisions and accepting the consequences. I don't have a real problem with the trade off of getting extra quest rewards in exchange for occasionally getting beaten up by a marauding group of Alliance players. However I do recognise that I am compromising fun for more rewards. That should never be a choice that game gives players because it is essentially a choice in which the player always loses one way or the other.

[kranur]

I grew up on the golden age of World PvP videos on warcraftmovies...and ive tried to recreate them by myself a million times.
Its pretty easy to have a 1 VS several people situation.

Only if the zone is populated for "reward reasons" is hard to have a 1v1.

Even in BG's you can have 1v1's i try to have them all the time but is rare there.

Well true, you'll have some 1v1 times but that's the "illusion" the movies create. If you keep recording for a few days you will eventually have a few 1v1 encounters to combine in a movie. But the truth is that's not and never was a common situation.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Remove all PvE bonuses from warmode so only people actually consenting to world pvp are in the mode.

Wait, is Blizzard logging in to your account and flipping on your warmode?

- - - Updated - - -

Not really.

The PvE rewards are what turn people into prostitution.

Thats a choice - if you dislike PVP but still use warmode, you are specifically choosing that style of play to get a reward. That is your own fault.

[Puupi]

Wait, is Blizzard logging in to your account and flipping on your warmode?

- - - Updated - - -



Thats a choice - if you dislike PVP but still use warmode, you are specifically choosing that style of play to get a reward. That is your own fault.

As I said, that's whoring out. And it's not only the players fault, it's Blizzard's fault for creating and supporting such an unhealthy and exploitative system.

[f4ncybear]

Timeless Isle coins coming in 8.3
Prepare your anus for geared people soloing parties using deepcoral pod/https://www.wowhead.com/item=170174/muck-slime and Nazjatar bodyguards.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

As I said, that's whoring out. And it's not only the players fault, it's Blizzard's fault for creating and supporting such an unhealthy and exploitative system.

I mean, thats not any different than raiding, or pvp in general. You fight things for shinies...

[Big Thanks]

Timeless Isle coins coming in 8.3

I can only wish I would resub...probably. Dont know.

[Ange]

Timeless Isle coins coming in 8.3
Prepare your anus for geared people soloing parties using deepcoral pod/https://www.wowhead.com/item=170174/muck-slime and Nazjatar bodyguards.

Gear doesnt really matter, thats the whole issue with BfA-WPVP. With scaling WPVP is just a numbers game and with the nazjatar bodyguards doing 50% of your damage it lowers the skill cap even more.

Do you remember Timeless Isle agains raid-geared players soloing full partys? Yes, thats no longer a thing in the game. 5 fresh WoW starters in green gear will crush your raid-geared toon while jumping up and down autoattacking.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Im extremely suspicious Blizzard devs have ZERO idea about World PvP "culture".

First i need you to understand several things about the current warmode system:

1) "Group PvP" is a lie
What mostly happens is several 5-man groups join in one location and farm the other faction as if it was a raid.

2) And on top of that, there is this "fantasy" that when one 5-man group kills a "solo player", that "solo" player will look to join another 5-man group to counter the enemy and begin a full out war in open world.
You know what trully happens?
That "solo" player revives and goes about his business...

What i mean is, guys, "group content" is designed to "prey on the weak" and kill "solo players"...farm them...as fast as posiible...the same way you do a PVE quest. Exactly the same.

My suspicions were confirmed by this "blizzquotes".



As you can see...Blizzard believes in group content as a concept.
BUT "Group Pvp is a lie" and only promotes doing PvP as if it was a PvE quest, as fast as possbile for the rewards.

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HOW TO IMPROVE WARMODE?

Acknowledge "solo PvP".

Only accept it exists and give us content for that.
Im not saying to design the entire game around "solo PvP"
I understand there are people who enjoy Group PvP, and sometimes good skirmishes do happen.
But i just ask for Blizzard to acknowledge the lone wolf experience.

HOW?

I understand any system Blizzard can come up with to promote a solo experience can be abused.
But make it as inconvenient as possible.
Blood coin system from Timeless Isle is an idea.

The problem with this is Blizzard is once again not doign anything to prevent terrible behavior from happening. It's not that they don't understand the pvp culture, they simply don't understand the MMO gaming culture which was, is, and will always be about exploiting the easiest thing possible. By making half the server effectively in the same group through the faction system it creates natural imbalances that generates situations of farming like you said where it doesn't even matter if you're in a raid or a group, everyone is autoamtically together because factions are cancer.

Delete factions from the game, everybody is now on their own, WPvP becomes FFA, you will be forced to make a group to have allies and to get your quests done you can't be in a raid or even around other people of your faction (which is effectively a raid without the downsides) so there's not 50 people having your back.

Every problem you mentioned can be entirely solved by deleting the real cancer of this game, factions.

[kranur]

The problem with this is Blizzard is once again not doign anything to prevent terrible behavior from happening. It's not that they don't understand the pvp culture, they simply don't understand the MMO gaming culture which was, is, and will always be about exploiting the easiest thing possible. By making half the server effectively in the same group through the faction system it creates natural imbalances that generates situations of farming like you said where it doesn't even matter if you're in a raid or a group, everyone is autoamtically together because factions are cancer.

Delete factions from the game, everybody is now on their own, WPvP becomes FFA, you will be forced to make a group to have allies and to get your quests done you can't be in a raid or even around other people of your faction (which is effectively a raid without the downsides) so there's not 50 people having your back.

Every problem you mentioned can be entirely solved by deleting the real cancer of this game, factions.

Horrible. So it's ok if I make a raid and follow you around so you can't complete your quests because you have allies nearby? Or are we enemies in which I'll just camp your silly corpse. Which way do you prefer?
Turn wm off and stfu if you cant handle it.

[Monoxide]

Remove all PvE bonuses from warmode so only people actually consenting to world pvp are in the mode.

Or get rid of war mode entirely because it's a garbage system and revert the servers back to PvP and PvE.

[Amariw]

While I agree with the sentiment, I don't think such a system would be very practical because players would find workarounds. What you basically need is an intelligent monitor that can figure out if players are working together in spite of not being grouped and then shove them together into the "group" phase.

Thinking out the box a bit, maybe a good system would be for the game to have a mode where the game forms groups with nearby players of the same faction out in the open world. Possible mechanisms could include an opt-in switch where it just happens automatically with any other players who are also have it switched on. Alternatively a pop up box could appear whenever you're near other players. Eg "There are other Horde players nearby. Would you like to group up with them?". If you move out of range from the group, the game can ask if you'd like to leave the group/disband.

Speaking from personal experience, the reason I don't tend to group up with random players I run into is entirely because it's too much hassle. I basically have to pause with what I am doing and whisper the other player asking if they want to group up. Then I have to wait for them to stop what they're doing and answer, which could be anything from an immediate group invite, to "sure", to "sorry, in a bg/dungeon/lfr queue" to "I am done here, maybe next time". A game system that basically condenses this process down to a single click to opt in would, IMO, be a significant benefit to players, not just in Warmode, but for all open world content.

There's no need for such a complicated work-around. Simply make consistent, ever present system with pvp-focused rewards (Silithus sands, epl towers, Timeless Isle ffa mode). After a week or so of hype they'll only be visited by those who enjoy it, which will rarely be a lot at once, creating fun skirmishes. Aside from that, removing pve rewards from warmode is also a great idea.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Horrible. So it's ok if I make a raid and follow you around so you can't complete your quests because you have allies nearby? Or are we enemies in which I'll just camp your silly corpse. Which way do you prefer?
Turn wm off and stfu if you cant handle it.

I'm literally asking for WPvP to become FFA to have more enemies. I handle if better than you who search for help because you can't get anything done on your own.

Turn WM off if all you do is turn it into a PvE raid against single players questing. No self respect.

[Monoxide]

There's no need for such a complicated work-around. Simply make consistent, ever present system with pvp-focused rewards (Silithus sands, epl towers, Timeless Isle ffa mode). After a week or so of hype they'll only be visited by those who enjoy it, which will rarely be a lot at once, creating fun skirmishes. Aside from that, removing pve rewards from warmode is also a great idea.

I'm sure this will be dismissed out of hand because I'm referencing Classic, but looking at the playerbase there, I'd have to strongly disagree. Blizzard released servers in Classic based on demand, and at least in NA its 30 PvP servers (including 2 RP-PvP), and 11 PvE servers (including 1 RP). Kinda seems like people are into world PvP, or else they wouldn't be so overwhelmingly on PvP servers.

[LordVargK]

Here is an easy fix:

Warmode bonus gives 15% extra honor.

The few people who would choose warmode ON are your "World PvP culture". Faction imbalance would be a non issue, since you would not be forced for your PvE gametime to opt in for warmode.

If you do warmode and call your self a PVP player, you also might want to solo old expansion raids SOLO and call yourself a progression raider, because thats how silly warmode really is.

While I like the Idea of getting rid of PvE rewards in PvP, 15% extra Honor does nothing. Because with WM off your Honor gain is zero. 115%*0 is still 0. What you can say is, that WM could be the best source of Honor. You would have to scale the rewards to a level, where Arena, BG and such can't compete.

WM has to have a incentive besides PvP, because everything in the game has. You don't do M+ just for the challenge, you do it for the gear. Same for raids: Everything in the game is engineered to reward your effort with some character progression.

Get rid of passive Boni in WM.

Reward players for killing other players with gold/rep/honor/azerite. Think PvP expeditions, just in the open world. You get a stacking buff the longer you are active in WM (killing other players, finishing quests, etc..) and a player killing you gets a reward based on your buff. That way camping is discouraged, because you won't get rewards for killing someone over and over. Just one example you can take.

That would be my first solution to the problem. You get your rewards by killing other players, which have killed players themselves. That would mean that
a) there is now a method of grinding rep/gold/artifactpower as much as you like just by playing the game and "gitting gud"
b) groups have to split the reward. So killing a player with a 40 man raid nets you nearly nothing.
c) someone who is not interested in PvP doesn't have to be "prey" to boost his progression

You can also implement PvP objectives like the airdrops, just with bigger rewards inside. Or spawn periodic PvP events, etc.

Just improving the PvE rewards passively was the worst possible implementation of WM, even worse than no rewards. And seeing that Blizz lately has the motto "When in doubt, fuck it up", I can understand why they chose the laziest option possible.

[Puupi]

I'm sure this will be dismissed out of hand because I'm referencing Classic, but looking at the playerbase there, I'd have to strongly disagree. Blizzard released servers in Classic based on demand, and at least in NA its 30 PvP servers (including 2 RP-PvP), and 11 PvE servers (including 1 RP). Kinda seems like people are into world PvP, or else they wouldn't be so overwhelmingly on PvP servers.

People playing Classic are into world PvP.

As witnessed on these forums, those are not the same people as who are playing retail - for the most part.

[Satelliteyears0o]

Im extremely suspicious Blizzard devs have ZERO idea about World PvP "culture".

First i need you to understand several things about the current warmode system:

1) "Group PvP" is a lie
What mostly happens is several 5-man groups join in one location and farm the other faction as if it was a raid.

2) And on top of that, there is this "fantasy" that when one 5-man group kills a "solo player", that "solo" player will look to join another 5-man group to counter the enemy and begin a full out war in open world.
You know what trully happens?
That "solo" player revives and goes about his business...

What i mean is, guys, "group content" is designed to "prey on the weak" and kill "solo players"...farm them...as fast as posiible...the same way you do a PVE quest. Exactly the same.

My suspicions were confirmed by this "blizzquotes".



As you can see...Blizzard believes in group content as a concept.
BUT "Group Pvp is a lie" and only promotes doing PvP as if it was a PvE quest, as fast as possbile for the rewards.

--------

HOW TO IMPROVE WARMODE?

Acknowledge "solo PvP".

Only accept it exists and give us content for that.
Im not saying to design the entire game around "solo PvP"
I understand there are people who enjoy Group PvP, and sometimes good skirmishes do happen.
But i just ask for Blizzard to acknowledge the lone wolf experience.

HOW?

I understand any system Blizzard can come up with to promote a solo experience can be abused.
But make it as inconvenient as possible.
Blood coin system from Timeless Isle is an idea.

want a good way to improve war mode? disable flying mounts or limit them.

[Kralljin]

World PvP should not hand out direct rewards, it just leads to people grouping up as we saw during BfA release and the current situation on classic servers where people basically spawn camp certain areas.

World PvP should only hand out indirect rewards.

Some guy from the other faction mining an Ore vein?
Fight for it.
Some guy camping the spawn of a quest mob?
Fight for it.
Some guy farming some mobs for a given material?
Fight for it.

That's how it should be, that's the benefit of a PvP server, that you have the option to remove a given player from a spot by fighting for it, whereas on PvE servers, you're stuck with them farming / stealing your stuff.

Of course, Blizzard has changed a lot of mechanics that's no longer the case or necessary to fight over it, but putting rewards into World PvP just leads to people grouping up and ganking lone players.

[kranur]

I'm literally asking for WPvP to become FFA to have more enemies. I handle if better than you who search for help because you can't get anything done on your own.

Turn WM off if all you do is turn it into a PvE raid against single players questing. No self respect.

I have not turned wm off at any point. Whats your problem?

[Temp1on2]

None of anything listed here is the problem.

The problem is that WoW is a PvE game. It, at its core, isn't/wasn't designed for PvP.

To create what you're looking for would require a entirely different game with a different set of design values and mechanics. This is particularly true for the open world which are PvE areas (you go there to quest, not PvP).

The closest you're gunna get to the kind of PvP you seem to be wanting is either arena or BGs. Specific areas designed for PvP.