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  1. #41
    Legendary! Nnyco's Avatar
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    Taking extra dmg to deal extra dmg is totally fine as long as people dont die, any complains about that are just noise that youre too lazy to heal.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrysis View Post
    You clearly don't understand the ins-and-outs of healing and when it is stressful and when it isn't. I'm guessing that you don't heal. EVER. So please allow me to assist.


    High stress for healers: High spike damage, unpredictable spike damage, not being able to cast.

    Low stress for healers: Consistent, low hps damage and being able to cast.

    So, to counter what you said, a DPS decrease would actually be easier for healers than, say, bursting. Damage on the party would stay consistent, and is MUCH easier than the large hps requirement for multiple stacks of bursting. Or when explosive orbs go off. There is only one mob that I can think of off the top of my head that would make problems harder the longer it is up, and PUG DPS normally ignore it and wipe groups anyways.

    You might say, "Get better DPS!" And you would be correct! In the example I gave, a good dps would not have any dps loss, and the fact that you commented at all means you missed the entire point of my post.

    What is the point? Easy. For mechanics that are reliant upon good play and organization by the DPS, such as explosive, raging, and bursting, it's the healers who deal with the fallout when mechanics are ignored or failed. And that is bad game design. That means you literally have dps that wander around not realizing that if they don't DPS those bursting orbs, the group is going to wipe. Or that if they don't single target mobs during bursting week that the group is going to wipe. Healers can compensate for some mistakes, but without a cause-and-effect understanding, a lot of dps just aren't going to understand what to do.

    I kind of wish we had some basic tank/heal/dps trials with regards to M+ affixes these days.
    it really isnt a "healers have to carry in every affix" issue.
    its a "bad players exist" issue.
    all affixes are a group effort to deal with.
    in fact if you play with good DPS, most of the affixes are dealt with up front by DPS/by healers who do dps because theres nothing to heal.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    If people keep blaming you for Bolstering, Necrotic, Explosive and extended Bursting - consider joining a different group for the next dungeon. But first, finish the dungeon and try to learn how to carry a group that fails on all of these.
    If you think about it, it's counter-intuitive. If you're a fresh healer, you try to do and M+ with people of equal experience and all hell breaks loose. You struggle like a madman to cover all fails. You MAY learn or you may say "eff this, I'm going dps, this isn't worth the effort".

    - - - Updated - - -

    To the OP: you are right, the majority of DPSes are crap when it comes to survivability. There are dpses with self heals who sit at 5% and just wait for the next AoE to mow them down. There are DPSes who have healthstones, their tank yells at them to use the healthstones and still they don't and get killed 5 seconds after. There are dpses who can dispell the bloody poison on themselves, they sit there and wait for the priest to heal off the damage off them instead of using a bloody dispell. And you're lucky if the dpses notice the healer is dead and brez him.
    So yeah, what else is new. As always, the solution is to get a group of friends to play with - which will probably do these stupid things anyway, but at least they'll know it's not your fault.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    I feel the same as a tank. It seems like a lot of mechanics that are supposed to be for the dps, the tanks and healers have to deal with the consequences. Dps not killing mobs at the same time? Here, have some big extra mobs to deal with. Dps don't stagger mob kills? Here have some more healing. Dps take damage with grievous? Here, heal some more. There should indeed be more mechanics that punish dps players directly, like: Don't kill mobs at the same time? They take 10% reduced damage per stack. Got hit by a mechanic? Deal 50% less damage for 10 seconds. Give dps some mechanics to deal with.
    This won't work the way you think it will.

    Mobs take reduced damage or you deal less damage? They're up longer, more time you need to heal, more time you need to spend tanking.

  5. #45
    i played on the PTR and at least heroic felt fine it's mostly a matter of timing cooldowns, not overlapping stuff


    healers should always be the most difficult playstyle to play ingame which i think is mostly the case
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Within reason. Which generally means they should be able to heal enough that you can pass the encounter if people don't constantly stand in the fire without need, not that they should have near godlike ability to fix all your ills.

    If somebody dies or causes others to die because they can't handle their own Corruption, that's their fault, not the healer's.

    This isn't really a Shadowlands topic though since Corruption is specificially a 8.3 mechanic.
    I never liked healing in Vanilla/TBC for this exact reason. I can't heal stupid, nor would I try. I can't imagine trying to do that in modern WoW with challenge/M+ dungeons.

  7. #47
    i get what the OP is trying to say (at least i think i do).

    currently the most common penalty for making a mistake is "take X damage", which is always a thing the healer has to fix and unless its a oneshot the dd can forget about it quickly.
    different kind of penalites would be interesing. for example if you stay in a voidzone you get a role-specific debuff:
    healers: - healing done
    dds: - damage done
    tanks: + damage received

    preferably undispellable. so no one can "fix" your mistake.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    If you think about it, it's counter-intuitive. If you're a fresh healer, you try to do and M+ with people of equal experience and all hell breaks loose. You struggle like a madman to cover all fails. You MAY learn or you may say "eff this, I'm going dps, this isn't worth the effort".

    - - - Updated - - -

    To the OP: you are right, the majority of DPSes are crap when it comes to survivability. There are dpses with self heals who sit at 5% and just wait for the next AoE to mow them down. There are DPSes who have healthstones, their tank yells at them to use the healthstones and still they don't and get killed 5 seconds after. There are dpses who can dispell the bloody poison on themselves, they sit there and wait for the priest to heal off the damage off them instead of using a bloody dispell. And you're lucky if the dpses notice the healer is dead and brez him.
    So yeah, what else is new. As always, the solution is to get a group of friends to play with - which will probably do these stupid things anyway, but at least they'll know it's not your fault.
    That's one of my favorite things to do while I'm kitty'ing, especially since BFA. Helping the rest of my group. If I have a regrowth proc I'll throw it on someone who is hurt, not just blow it on myself at full health. And with BFA returning soothe and allowing the use of remove corruption it feels very good to remove a nasty curse or poison off someone, or tell that nasty hard hitting mob "no enrage for you, mister."
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  9. #49
    It's only a problem if you play with people you don't know.

  10. #50
    Banned Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    Making mistakes is one thing. Taxing healers because you're trying to get an orange parse is another.
    Yeh one is a generalization, while the other is an anecdote. Youre right, completely different..

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    I don't quite understand the correlation to m+ affixes - only a few of them are healer specific? But in raids, if the raid benefits from extra corruption in some encounter, then the comp should be balanced around extra corruption. I don't really see why this would be problematic on progression?

    It's probably a huge problem in uncontrolled comps like heroic pugs, but.. yeah.. pugs..
    Yea, thats kind of missing the point tho. "Yeah... pugs.." Yea. Pugs. Exactly. And unfortunately "Yeah... pugs.." is the vast majority of lower M+ runs for most people. Its entirely pointless to bring that up, though, because it doesn't change the fact. Mechanics like this will ALWAYS be carried on the healers backs. If the DPS fucks up, you are expected to catch it and save their ass. Same for the Tank. You might think this is totally never applying for everything but pugs... ...but thats wrong. Players - even in higher groups - clearly will always look at the healer funny to some degree, even if its not. Thats the expectation people pick their healers with and judge you by. "Its you job mate. DUH." like that... remarkable genius in the first answer to this thread who left a similarly intelligent quote. "Healers Job is to heal. DUH"
    Whyyy... This... I... We... well... FFfffuuuu uu
    ww..
    Victim to Blizzard-Marketing since 2004

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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    DPS are the vast majority of players and are also more prone to whining than other roles,so Blizzard has to cater to them when they throw tantrums because they actually have to do something more complex than hitting 3 buttons
    I think m+ affixes were added to just add general "difficulty" to the dungeon so it's not faceroll and has some variety. Yes, explosive, bolstering, quaking etc. are meant to force dps to pay attention or wipe, but if they don't want to, what can you do? The game can't just play itself for them.

    And then you wonder why there are endless QQ threads about dps unable to get into m+ pugs.

    I really believe the amount of good players and average players in each role is fairly proportional (group comps already account for more dps than tanks / healers), it's just that the utterly useless players crowd the dps role and dilute the recruitment pool.

    In raids, it's a different story, guilds recruit by log review and pugs can kick underperformers after early bosses trimming the group down. But in m+ you have to filter players before the dungeon starts and after you're stuck with them. So the side effect is groups will pick overqualified / overgeared dps to compensate the risks.

    Funnily a group with 3 great dps and average healer will clear easier than a group with 3 mediocre dps and godlike healer. Because if stuff dies faster, you don't need to heal as much. And if stuff dies slow, you'll deplete the timer anyway.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Players - even in higher groups - clearly will always look at the healer funny to some degree, even if its not.
    Not at all my experience. The healer is there to do a job - but that job is not "saving DPS when they screw up mechanics". That would be a waste of a healer. The solution to that is "DPS should stop screwing up mechanics". And healer can concentrate on healing unavoidable damage and maximizing their DPS to priority targets.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    - Bursting: Few people will blame you after repeatedly extending high bursting stacks. On the other hand, it's a good chance for you to practice burst healing. Most bad situations can be saved if you anticipate and prepare for them.
    - Grievous: You should have 0 problems healing grievous on everyone. But you have the right to complain that you lose most of your DPS because some damage dealer gets grievous once every 10 seconds.
    - Forced movement away from Volcanic, and spell-casting interrupts from Quaking: both become trivial once you get comfortable with the game (learn dungeons, learn your spec, stop tunnel visioning and gain awareness). Very easy to avoid and to play around, with basically no HPS loss. Quaking is annoying for healers who deal damage in melee because healers should give more space to real damage dealers and lose their own DPS.
    - Explosives: Few people will blame you even if they die from a single explosion. It's a very fun affix for MW monks and H paladins, as they can solo most of the explosives for the group. Other healer specs may rightfully find it annoying because they are less suited to deal with explosives.
    - Sanguine: Whatever. You can keep doing damage and defer healing to a much later time, if no unavoidable incoming damage is anticipated.
    - Necrotic: Has nothing to do with healing, and healing will never get blamed. But it's one of the affixes that forces you to learn more of your toolkit (Ring of Peace, Typhoon, Shining Force, and other utility).
    - Raging (you meant Bolstering): Few people will blame you for bolstered mobs.

    If people keep blaming you for Bolstering, Necrotic, Explosive and extended Bursting - consider joining a different group for the next dungeon. But first, finish the dungeon and try to learn how to carry a group that fails on all of these. If you mostly play a healer and you're not already a rank 1 player, trying to fix the emergency situations is how you learn to be a better player. You do learn a lot this way.

    Admittedly, things have gotten a bit better since my buddy went back to tanking, but you really would not believe some of the shit I've had people blame me for in PUG groups as a healer. I genuinely wish you had gotten to my response back to Mojusk, because I can see that you are trying to be genuinely helpful, and my frustrated hyperbole didn't not adequately convey my thoughts across.

    And the point really is this -- these mechanics are flawed game design in some respects. In a group composition (before you get to it, we're not talking about good, knowledgeable players), there is no easily-traced cause-and-effect, so there is no easy way for players to learn how to get better. To give you an example, a number of months back after I had just come back after break, we were doing an 11 Tol Dagor with explosive. I don't play a class that can easily pick up slack for DPS on this one. Any how, we couldn't get past the first boss after eight wipes. We lost two of the dps. The only one that stayed was the mage who insisted that none of the dps were helping on orbs. (Don't shoot me, I didn't know to have enemy frames on at the time.) If it weren't for that mage, I would have lost my mind. I couldn't figure out what was going on such that everyone was taking such horrific damage. The key turned into a 10 Tol Dagor, we got two new dps, they did explosive properly, and the whole dungeon turned into a freaking cakewalk. We easily two-chested it.

    Imagine a healer new to M+ trying to learn during a bursting week with aoe happy dps. There is no correlation here. You're a healer; you're there to heal. What do you do when you have 7+stacks and no cooldowns left? Now imagine this happens repeatedly throughout the dungeon. Imagine that the dps call you a bad healer for not being able to constantly heal through it all. Bursting is a DPS management mechanic, but you aren't so sure of yourself to challenge them on it. So you decide that you're terrible and then you quit doing M+.

    Further evidence of this is how much easier it is to heal keys (in very general terms) that are higher versus ones that are lower. Healing a ten or an eleven is MUCH easier than trying to wade through a 7 or an 8 where the dps still don't know what to do. Get dps that know to use things like stuns and interrupts, and suddenly you start flying through the dungeon.

    Due to the issues, I really think we need to bring back the trials for M+. It doesn't even need to be something super terrible -- just something to give a cause-and-effect to the affixes that have none.


    P.S. --

    I just have a pet peeve with quaking because I genuinely hate anything that stops me from healing. It got a lot less obnoxious with a weak aura, but still. I hate having to stop casting.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrysis View Post
    In a group composition (before you get to it, we're not talking about good, knowledgeable players), there is no easily-traced cause-and-effect, so there is no easy way for players to learn how to get better.
    The "feedback loop" could indeed be better in wow, but I don't think devs prio that kind of QoL.

    I like to link damage taken by explosive (shows who dpsed them and who didn't) on my meter at the end of dungeon if I see people slacked. But you'll hear tons of silly excuses how class X can't deal with explosives. Nope, they just don't wanna "lose dps" so they rather wipe and blame someone else. I knew an ele shaman who claimed ele can't deal with explosive. I tried once myself, you can just spam frost shock and it dies. Yes, it lowers your dps because you aren't mindlessly aoeing in these globals. But that doesn't mean you're completely unable to. There are very few classes that really don't have any instant ability to spam.

    Same thing this week. Had a premade of 4 missing 1 person for dungeons. Pugged people with ilvl, r.io whatever else. Always a ranged. Telling them "you're the only ranged (healer was a monk) you are responsible for knocking back the bubble emissary", nope, majority of them didn't do it because why would they lose precious dps on ensuring group success when they can fuck up the melee and force the tank to knock the emissary instead of focusing on establishing aggro and interrupting? Especially when they were the lowest dps from the 3.

    If you're doing crazy dps, I can forgive you not handling mechanics, if you're doing mechanics, I can forgive you low-ish dps, but so many people do neither.

    The same thing that pisses me off in island pugs. Crap geared dps running around pulling mobs instead of actually looting / mining. You get so much azerite from sacks, chests, quests and mining nodes, and the lowest dps person or healer should do it. But noooo gotta e-peen on the meters. That's probably the pve equivalent of pvp's fighting on the road / center instead of defending objectives.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaNLG View Post
    This won't work the way you think it will.

    Mobs take reduced damage or you deal less damage? They're up longer, more time you need to heal, more time you need to spend tanking.
    But if mobs are living too long there is no argument that the dps is at fault. You see here in this thread all the wall lickers coming out to say "reee bad healer reeeeee".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer
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    Blizz loves healers in PVP to the point of killing all potential fun and growth and balance from days of old due to this "you're supposed to have a healer" nonsense. They know and recognise tanks being viable in PVP makes it unfun and shitty for everyone but healers get to ruin the experience for everyone.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  18. #58
    I honestly suspect a lot of players will do 90% cleansed items (which come with a socket for your trouble huehuehue) and like, 1-2 slots of corrupted gear, which is passively negated by the new neck essence minor trait and the cloak upgrades.

    On my main I'm 99% certain the bow with random cooldown reduction will be BiS, which is 25 corruption, and maybe I'll use 1-2 tier 3 Crit affixes. This would keep my corruption below the nastier thresholds and get less punishing as time goes on.
    Side note, a dps parse only counts if you kill the boss. Nobody, not even your mother cares about your rank 1 parse on a wipe. :3
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy View Post
    As if the horde faction imbalance could be worse now we have floofy foxes
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    and he's got a fat ass

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    which come with a socket for your trouble huehuehue
    That was nerfed already afaik.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    That was nerfed already afaik.
    Oh, guess I'll just uninstall and KMS then : ^)
    /s
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy View Post
    As if the horde faction imbalance could be worse now we have floofy foxes
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    and he's got a fat ass

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