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  1. #121
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Trust me, the “heaven is ACTUALLY hell, THE DEVIL was the good guy all along!” Trope is not very unique or interesting.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    You are REALLY stretching it, comparing Sylvi burning alive 10k nelf civilians to fuel supernatural being with "kill these soldiers" orders.
    Going into the event this was not known... hell this wasn't revealed until we were looking at leaks and reveals for the future expansion... so cool how we can feel justified with our future hind sight to judge events.

    mean while people use the simplest ways to describe the event as the highest form of denouncement like such events as killing civilians/children/allies/henchmen/etc is exclusive. Newsflash, genocide/patricide/matricide/betrayal has all been done by various figures on all sides and was major plot points of our own acts that includes a laundry list of warcrimes (to include feigning surrender to gain advantage in battles).

    this isn't an argument saying Sylvanas isn't evil... this is trying to draw attention to the very poor way people justify their denouncement of one character while others that have committed similar acts continue to exist in heroic idealization. Or have people forgotten how Illidan and Jaina have turned out or what they did to get where they are?

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    And "Sylvanas hasn't been shown killing anyone except for key characters"? Really???
    If we're talking murder or executions that really only falls to Zelling and Nathanos' cousin. in Battle for named characters? Garithos, Saurfang, Calia, Genn's son... I'd add Varimathras but he didn't die. Many other kills are attributed via her being in command rather than her kills.... but in the same vein of attributing underling's kills to leaders her actions in cataclysm would still fall back to Garrosh as he was the one in charge and forcing events.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Well then, guess all those rl genocidal leaders weren't THAT bad, I mean they didn't kill all these people by themselves. It was just the orders, man.
    I know people like you will always say this like it's some sort of witty quip... but the thing is people around these forums and the writing team actually use this mentality for some of the forces in the game and it's beyond poor handling of story progression to have the entire story bend over backwards to brings things back to the status quo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So you do not see the important distinction between, say, Anduin ordering an attack on Dazar'alor after it became clear they were allied with the Horde, and Sylvanas ordering the burning of Teldrassil after she was informed there were only non-combatants left.
    the issue with Dazar'alor is that they WEREN'T allied with the horde until after Alliance forces came in and killed the king, sacked the fleet, ruined the treasury and killed who knows how many zandalari along the way...

    See there is a difference between events, yes, but people act like "she killed children!" is the biggest thing when no shit... kids die when war strikes their homes. Anduin launches a preemptive strike to try to force teh Zandalari to NOT ally with the horde with explicit orders to not take things too far but that doesn't stop his forces from ruining the fleet, killing the king and carving a bloody path across the nation because of something that only happened because of the attack.

    Again, Teldrassil isn't a unique event except for it's scale and how much the story falls back to remind us.

    Also... are you saying the word of an advanced scout who was captured in the field's word should be taken as true when discussing the state of a location they aren't in?

    Now because everyone will take that to mean something else a disclaimer. I am not saying Teldrassil wasn't a terrible event. I am not saying Sylvanas is good. I am not saying killing kids isn't evil...

    I AM saying that when people are painting their targets for moral judgement they should probably pick some higher hanging fruit.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    We don't often agree, but amen.

    The mental gymnastics would make Olympic gold medalists blush.
    Imagine drooling over a pixelated character. She is badass, but this waifu thing is actually embarassing i agree with @Mirishka

    And as captaingrim has on his video "She does no wrong. So sexy." lol

  4. #124
    Bloodsail Admiral TigTone's Avatar
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    It’s about BALANCE not “good” or “evil”.

    The Jailer is most likely breaking shit in shadowlands out of boredom. Like a certain god has been portrayed (Hades).

    We are coming in hot to remind him don’t be an asshole and do his job.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    The Arbiter is female, the Jailer is male.
    Blizzard say that (noticed the image is tagged as fan art) weird not really sure why 'cosmic beings' need a gender... oh shut up me (quickly stuff can of worms in a lockbox).

  6. #126
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    and those options aren't mutually exclusive.
    Coluding with the enemy is NEVER EVER in the interrest of your country, so yes... They are 100% exclusive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    Until the leader of the country is a tyrant, and the only way to take him down is to ally with his enemies which are usually other countries.
    But Sylvanas isn't a tyrant..
    Rough around the edges, sure..... But a tyrant, nope..

    And no, I'm no fan boi.... I hate elves in all shapes and forms, even the (un)dead ones..

    Sylvanas was not the enemy, and thus what Saurfang and Baine did, was inexcusable and they should have been put down for it.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Coluding with the enemy is NEVER EVER in the interrest of your country, so yes... They are 100% exclusive.
    Didn't Sylv colluded with Azshara? Isn't she colluding with the Jailer?
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No, Antifa are the real heroes.

  8. #128
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxuvox View Post
    Nope....I think it's much more likely that the Jailer is, as stated, the overarching villain of this expansion. Any twists will be the ones already predicted where it turns out Sylvanas was playing the jailer in order to take his place, or somehow destroy the oblivion he rules over.
    Now I'm interested.
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  9. #129
    Its predictably cheesy so I really hope not. However, I would actually like a boss fight that isnt dark themed similar to odyn raid.
    Last edited by Nixl; 2019-11-28 at 07:32 PM.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrowseer View Post
    Blizzard say that (noticed the image is tagged as fan art) weird not really sure why 'cosmic beings' need a gender... oh shut up me (quickly stuff can of worms in a lockbox).
    Not sure why it's tagged as fan art but it isn't. It was made by Ariel Fain, a 3D artist at Blizzard.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a man gets pregnant (and, while vanishingly rare, it has happened)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No, Antifa are the real heroes.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    That’s some mighty convoluted hoops you’re jumping through to paint Sylvanas as anything but evil at this point.
    It is traumatic for some to see a character like Sylvanas that had so much potential for interesting stories with her conflicted between feelings for her elf lands and the unfeeling, caring starkness of undeath creeping into her soul get destroyed and used a moustache-twirling victim. Blizz will lose a lot of fans doing that. Its about as bad as the Terminator movies taking John Connor who has a lot of potential for interesting stories and turning him into a mustache-twirling victim in Genisys. No-one wants to see that. They had to reboot the franchise to erase that mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Coluding with the enemy is NEVER EVER in the interrest of your country, so yes... They are 100% exclusive.
    So then Sylvanas is a traitor by your definition. She colluded with Helya, with Azshara and the Jailer.
    Varimathras, too, if you want to go back.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Trust me, the “heaven is ACTUALLY hell, THE DEVIL was the good guy all along!” Trope is not very unique or interesting.
    Which makes it all the more likely...

  14. #134
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    Which makes it all the more likely...
    But at the same time Blizzard’s not really big on the whole “the bad guy was the good guy the whole time!”

    Besides, I’d rather not have an entire expansion’s story boiled down to literally the first line from pink floyd’s “wish you were here”
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  15. #135
    The Lightbringer Bosen's Avatar
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    Some old wrinkly guy once said Evil is a point of view.

  16. #136
    it might be just me because of playing all devil may cry series but those angel like things, arbiter in our case, seems not very trustable.
    if anything, If I compare it to the recent leaked jailor picture, I would take jailor to my side over arbiter anytime. jailor seems to be the nice guy. seriously.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Emmithyst View Post
    I'm still thinking that the Arbiter is Elune.
    Agreed. I think Elune is a Trinity (like Christianity's God) with Arbiter being one of her Aspects (White Lady, neutral). Her not having a face doesn't neccessarily scream evil to me. Justitia, Roman goddess of justice was also blind, hence the "blind justice" sintagm.
    Other two Aspects of Elune being the light/life/arcane one that created the top left side of cosmology (Mother Moon) and the chaos/dark one that created the bottom right side (Night Warrior). Which would truly make Elune the one true God in WoW and the creator of all.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Narzok View Post
    seeing how hard Blizzard tries to make Sylvanas look like the misunderstood hero, i can see them doing something like this.

    come 9.3, we have a cutscene with the big reveal of "OMG Sylavanas was never evil, who would habe guessed!?" and a smug-looking Sylvanas....
    well they did literaly whole expansion based on Illidan redemption arc and retconed him into "he was good all this time"

    so wouldnt surprise me .

    i personaly would prefer Sylvanas to be evil with her spliting into 3rd "evil" fraction

    would be much more interesting both gameplay and story wise

  19. #139
    If the Arbitrer is bad, why is she sending souls to the maw to make more powerful the Jailer and its followers, which are good?

  20. #140
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Coluding with the enemy is NEVER EVER in the interrest of your country, so yes... They are 100% exclusive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    But Sylvanas isn't a tyrant..
    Rough around the edges, sure..... But a tyrant, nope..

    And no, I'm no fan boi.... I hate elves in all shapes and forms, even the (un)dead ones..

    Sylvanas was not the enemy, and thus what Saurfang and Baine did, was inexcusable and they should have been put down for it.
    But what about the part where she in the latest cutscene shouted that the horde was nothing? Sounds like a leader who doesn't have your best interests at heart, and as such needs to be removed from power

    Or when she worked together with Helya?

    Or you know, commited fucking genocide in a war she had just started
    Last edited by Temp name; 2019-11-29 at 08:35 AM.

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