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  1. #21
    I agree with your premise 100%. Not sure I agree with some of the ideas you put forth, but if they're open for discussion they can be improved. The bottom line is, Blizzard does NOT want to put resources into WOW. Ever since Cata they've been 100% about delivering the most content with the least amount of effort and resources. It can be argued MOP and Legion didn't fit snugly into the aforementioned mold, but the flip side can be argued as well. At this point I strongly believe Blizzard greatly over-estimates their brand and that we'll buy whatever trash they produce, Shadowlands is NOT impressive, it's just kind of meh at best. And, they're not concerned because they know if they punch out BC servers and Wrath servers, they'll string along purest fans for another 3-4 years. Then maybe they'll finally do what needs to be done - reboot the game with a game engine that isn't older than my 16 year old niece.

  2. #22
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    "Action combat" is probably the most overrated and overused gameplay theme, everything from shooter to platformer to action RPG to MMO can be summed as "dodge stuff and land your skill shots", I definitely don't need another clone of that paradigm.

    Wow still has the "auto aim" element but for example raiding and dungeon encounters went too far into "action RPG" territory where classes have simplistic rotations that don't require thinking, but everything and the kitchen sink is thrown at you so 90% of your attention span has to be dedicated to dodging stuff.

    Every game has a carrot, either obvious or hidden, especially games that are designed to be played for years, and not just once and then shelved. There's a whole team of specialists in every developer's studio planning how to make their game the most addictive thing without breaking laws and getting into trouble, while maximizing profit. Devil May Cry has more flashy combat than WOW but is mostly played once until the next installment, while WOW needs constant active playerbase to function.

    Anyway if action combat and dynamic world events were the golden pill for all the problems of MMOs then Guild Wars 2 would be beating WOW by miles in playerbase, and while it's doing fine, it's not doing crazy breathtaking especially counting the fact it's f2p to start, so it already has the accessibility advantage.
    It was just a random idea thrown without thinking and it's still better than tab targetting system. Imagine what an entire team paid to do that could come up with.
    Sure there's always going to be a carrot but it doesn't need to be the ONLY thing motivating players.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    It was just a random idea thrown without thinking and it's still better than tab targetting system. Imagine what an entire team paid to do that could come up with.
    Sure there's always going to be a carrot but it doesn't need to be the ONLY thing motivating players.
    The entire team has to worry about the actual implications of what they're proposing, they're not just throwing out ideas on a forum that they'll forget about 30 minutes later.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    "Action combat" is probably the most overrated and overused gameplay theme, everything from shooter to platformer to action RPG to MMO can be summed as "dodge stuff and land your skill shots", I definitely don't need another clone of that paradigm.
    What I'm looking for in my games is an experience that I'll never get IRL, but something that allows the types of discrepancies that would arise in IRL activities to propagate in my video games. The differences in a pro tennis player versus a noob, for example. There are very few things a video game can use to attempt to translate physical prowess due to limited input from the user.
    Wow still has the "auto aim" element but for example raiding and dungeon encounters went too far into "action RPG" territory where classes have simplistic rotations that don't require thinking, but everything and the kitchen sink is thrown at you so 90% of your attention span has to be dedicated to dodging stuff.
    Basically every rotation requires active management to play optimally now, thanks to the introduction of random procs. What is truly braindead is memorization of a set pattern (rotation) for damage. I don't care if that rotation is 100 buttons or 5 buttons. If it's a set pattern, eventually, any 100iq+ human will memorize it, and that's far too common for someone to be a "master" to me. That's like saying you're a master at walking. I don't give a shit, because walking is easy and therefor being a master of it is basically meaningless. If a video game doesn't offer something I find worth giving a shit about, I don't play it. I will never play a multiplayer game for the same reasons I play a solo game for. The fact that other people exist innately push it into competitive territory, and competition is my king motivation for... everything when it's available.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2019-12-02 at 06:54 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Sums it up nicely. Many players are resentful of sweeping changes to the in game world they've gotten used to, most are ambivalent, and a few want things to change constantly. It's just not worth the effort in the end, and those resources are better used elsewhere.
    With timewalking phasing this problem is null. Old Arathi Highlands and Darkshore are still available. They could've easily added lots of content from Island Expeditions into the world, rather than gating it behind an instance and a timer.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    With timewalking phasing this problem is null. Old Arathi Highlands and Darkshore are still available. They could've easily added lots of content from Island Expeditions into the world, rather than gating it behind an instance and a timer.
    Again, it's not an issue of who is right, it's an issue of whether the feature is worth the investment in resources. That's a lot of work to go through if only a small number of players will get anything out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  7. #27
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The entire team has to worry about the actual implications of what they're proposing, they're not just throwing out ideas on a forum that they'll forget about 30 minutes later.
    Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, they have the time and ressources because it's their job, they can work on it, try it, play test it, experiment, prototype stuff. There's a lot they can do. But all of this comes down to the one major problem: people keep paying for this so why change any of it? Usually when a game fails people simply stop playing it which is the one true sign that something is wrong. If people keep buying and playing, it gives the illusion that everything is fine, so any form of improvement is seen as unnecessary and risky. Basically they lost all judgment and since nothing seems like an emergency they just keep things how they are instead of trying to improve them, and no one else around them is coming up with something better. You can bet your ass if a new MMO came out with exactly the things I said and it was more popular, Blizzard would do exactly that to compete and stay relevant, so why not just do it right now?
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, they have the time and ressources because it's their job, they can work on it, try it, play test it, experiment, prototype stuff. There's a lot they can do. But all of this comes down to the one major problem: people keep paying for this so why change any of it? Usually when a game fails people simply stop playing it which is the one true sign that something is wrong. If people keep buying and playing, it gives the illusion that everything is fine, so any form of improvement is seen as unnecessary and risky. Basically they lost all judgment and since nothing seems like an emergency they just keep things how they are instead of trying to improve them, and no one else around them is coming up with something better. You can bet your ass if a new MMO came out with exactly the things I said and it was more popular, Blizzard would do exactly that to compete and stay relevant, so why not just do it right now?
    Well, to be fair, a change in the combat system while it would be welcome, it would have to be incremental. I do not know if a revamp on the combat system would be a good idea. You are changing the very fabric of a 15 year old game, you risk alienating a HUGE amount of your playerbase. That is basically asking for trouble. WoW has something no other game has: Legacy.

    As long as WoW keeps being WoW, it will turn a profit for them. I'm not saying huge changes won't happen, I'm sure they will, but I think there are places where the teams KNOWS not redesign from scratch, and combat is one of them IMO.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, they have the time and ressources because it's their job, they can work on it, try it, play test it, experiment, prototype stuff. There's a lot they can do. But all of this comes down to the one major problem: people keep paying for this so why change any of it? Usually when a game fails people simply stop playing it which is the one true sign that something is wrong. If people keep buying and playing, it gives the illusion that everything is fine, so any form of improvement is seen as unnecessary and risky. Basically they lost all judgment and since nothing seems like an emergency they just keep things how they are instead of trying to improve them, and no one else around them is coming up with something better. You can bet your ass if a new MMO came out with exactly the things I said and it was more popular, Blizzard would do exactly that to compete and stay relevant, so why not just do it right now?
    Where do you get the idea that they don't experiment? We had two this xpack alone, Islands and Warfronts. They weren't very good experiments, mind, but Islands in particular features a few things we never saw before, chiefly the more dynamic AI. In Legion they experimented with M+ and WQs, which were far better received features.

    Experimenting doesn't mean turning the game into something it's not. No, they won't and shouldn't change the combat system of a 15 years old game, that's a total disaster waiting to happen (hi Star Wars Galaxies). No, they shouldn't spread the max level content over the entire friggin world. Cataclysm called and wants its terrible ideas back. Otherwise people in this thread are talking about generalities which is nice but hardly something one can base a discussion upon; "they should make the game more fun" is just about the most worthless piece of feedback I can imagine.

  10. #30
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    Well, to be fair, a change in the combat system while it would be welcome, it would have to be incremental. I do not know if a revamp on the combat system would be a good idea. You are changing the very fabric of a 15 year old game, you risk alienating a HUGE amount of your playerbase. That is basically asking for trouble. WoW has something no other game has: Legacy.

    As long as WoW keeps being WoW, it will turn a profit for them. I'm not saying huge changes won't happen, I'm sure they will, but I think there are places where the teams KNOWS not redesign from scratch, and combat is one of them IMO.
    That's true, I guess that's why they scratched the "mounted combat" idea they were supposed to put in the game several years ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Where do you get the idea that they don't experiment? We had two this xpack alone, Islands and Warfronts. They weren't very good experiments, mind, but Islands in particular features a few things we never saw before, chiefly the more dynamic AI. In Legion they experimented with M+ and WQs, which were far better received features.

    Experimenting doesn't mean turning the game into something it's not. No, they won't and shouldn't change the combat system of a 15 years old game, that's a total disaster waiting to happen (hi Star Wars Galaxies). No, they shouldn't spread the max level content over the entire friggin world. Cataclysm called and wants its terrible ideas back. Otherwise people in this thread are talking about generalities which is nice but hardly something one can base a discussion upon; "they should make the game more fun" is just about the most worthless piece of feedback I can imagine.
    I meant experimenting with core mechanics, they do come up with new features quite often but that never changes the feel of the game, it just adds more to do but you do that exactly how you did everything else before that.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    That's true, I guess that's why they scratched the "mounted combat" idea they were supposed to put in the game several years ago.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I meant experimenting with core mechanics, they do come up with new features quite often but that never changes the feel of the game, it just adds more to do but you do that exactly how you did everything else before that.
    Such as? There's only so much wiggle room you have with the core mechanics of a 15 years old game whose fanbase reacts with emotion to any and every change, so much so that there's now a fairly popular version of the game dedicated to being frozen in 2004-2006. Yeah, we keep questing then doing dungeons then doing raids for higher and higher ilvl loot, that's the game. Others PvP or do pet battles or collect mounts or game the Auction House or whatever. I don't see a good reason to completely change the game's loop; that's what, you know, other games are for.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by JacobusRex View Post
    While the Shadowlands look fantastic, it's still just another continent with "current content" rather than Hazzikostas directing the team to be creative, innovative, and adventurous.
    Yeah, seriously, especially when it comes to adding new permanent content instead of being like how Game Freak treats Pokemon: "Whelp, this feature was only during this generation (expansion), and now it's gone for good".

    Quote Originally Posted by JacobusRex View Post
    With an entire realm of deathly powers seeping into Azeroth's sky over Northrend, you're telling me that the face of Azeroth never changes?
    Wait, where are you going with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by JacobusRex View Post
    Point is, when are they going to make the world relevant again? <snipped the rest>
    *abandons ship*

    I don't really care about that. I don't need the GW2 system in WoW because it's boring to go across the continents. I just want new ways to play instead of old systems that have stuck around forever and revised old systems (we're on Scenarios 3.0, Assaults 3.0, WQs will be 3.0 in SL, etc). Torghast looks great but atm sounds like it's ONLY for legendary forging (so basically Chromie but for one piece of gear). There's no lastability there. Covenants is the same, and it's 4x the "content" that you only get to experience 1x of. Neither of these systems seem like they'll last. It'll be WFs/IEs all over again. Where's the content that actually LASTS me awhile? Where's the new system that will be a permanent addition (like WQs or M+ that Legion brought about?).
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by JacobusRex View Post
    While the Shadowlands look fantastic, it's still just another continent with "current content" rather than Hazzikostas directing the team to be creative, innovative, and adventurous. With an entire realm of deathly powers seeping into Azeroth's sky over Northrend, you're telling me that the face of Azeroth never changes? After the Legion invaded, the world would have been scarred from Fel and battle. After the world was at war, Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms would have been littered with wartime scars. Though they were "smart" to make the "Visions of N'zoth" just a pocket dimention thing, it shows they're copping out of doing something cool with Azeroth. The Black Empire could have been a whole expansion with the full-on rise of N'zoth and his legions of followers...

    Point is, when are they going to make the world relevant again? When are they going to do something to bring WoW into the modern age of MMO's. The other MMO's out there aren't as popular but that's because no one is as attached to their character as they are with their WoW mains, but they've been doing stuff that makes WoW seem like a game of Checkers.

    Real time world events that actually benefit the faction being attacked IF they can manage to win, or be a detriment if they fail. Strategic objectives like Azerite eruptions, loose Anima winds and land grabs that make natural PVP objectives and a reason to turn on Warmode besides goddamn xp. Maybe a randomly timed N'zoth incursion into Uldum, Ulduar, Uldir, and other Ul's that can possibly see the return of the Black Empire if they go neglected.

    There's so much they could do to make the world relevant again. Heck, even more casual things like the discovery of a new mine which is like an open-world mini dungeon filled with Kobolds, Elementals and other nefarious creatures. Maybe there's a random lifebloom where herbs erupt into being, attacked by Satyrs and other Nightmare creatures trying to corrupt it... Why are we trapped in the "current content" bubble which in itself gets boring after a week or two?
    Yeah well your idea of fun is not fun for others as you've seen. If you don't like the next expansion, don't buy it, they won't risk the formula that clearly works for them to do some random shit that isn't even remotely interesting. Idgaf about westfall farm girls being raped by Satyrs mate, I just wanna adventure in shadowlands lol.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Synros's Avatar
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    The game was literally just announced, and they're not even ready for Alpha yet. It's really stupid to make assumptions about what is and isn't going to happen in this xpac, based off a 2 minute teaser trailer that showed a fraction of what is to come...
    ON WEDNESDAYS WE WEAR PINK

  15. #35
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Such as? There's only so much wiggle room you have with the core mechanics of a 15 years old game whose fanbase reacts with emotion to any and every change, so much so that there's now a fairly popular version of the game dedicated to being frozen in 2004-2006. Yeah, we keep questing then doing dungeons then doing raids for higher and higher ilvl loot, that's the game. Others PvP or do pet battles or collect mounts or game the Auction House or whatever. I don't see a good reason to completely change the game's loop; that's what, you know, other games are for.
    Well, that's one of the main points why I think they should experiment more, now that the same game is re-released, it would be a good time to really take a leap with retail. There's a lot of exotic things they could do without completely re-inventing the wheel. For example making a summoner class that has the box selecting mechanic of RTS games to control your summons instead of having them all being automatic AI. There's plenty that could be done without making WoW feel like a different game, but at the same time making it feel different could be what the game needs as well, who knows.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  16. #36
    This is the lowest effort expansion to date. They need to pull a rabbit out of the hat or everyone will just meme correctly that wow is in maintenance mode and dead. Arguably this will be worse than WoD just based on what we have on paper.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Edlarel View Post
    Warfronts were generally well received, from what I've read
    What? Where have you been reading?

  18. #38
    There are two major things that could potentially happen that haven’t been confirmed by Blizzard, so both could also not happen.

    1. We’re messing with the afterlife. As heroes, we mess with a lot of things, but the afterlife is a different game. We could potentially create disastrous effects on Azeroth.

    2. Time passes at a substantially slower rate in the Shadowlands. I can’t find the exact difference right now, so if someone wants to correct me, they can, but I swear it was 1 hour in Shadowlands is about 1 week on Azeroth. If that’s the case, we could come back to an Azeroth that’s roughly 337 years in the future.

    I’d personally be excited if they carried out the time difference route.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Synros View Post
    The game was literally just announced, and they're not even ready for Alpha yet. It's really stupid to make assumptions about what is and isn't going to happen in this xpac, based off a 2 minute teaser trailer that showed a fraction of what is to come...
    Well one thing is certain, we're not getting a new class or race, previous years' expansion feature staples, which means everything is riding on the unknown; Covenants, so excuse some people for being doubtful because last time an expansion depended solely on a new feature (Garrisons), it tanked, hard.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Well one thing is certain, we're not getting a new class or race, previous years' expansion feature staples, which means everything is riding on the unknown; Covenants, so excuse some people for being doubtful because last time an expansion depended solely on a new feature (Garrisons), it tanked, hard.
    I'm certain there will be some form of Allied Races added during the xpac.
    When in doubt, simply ask yourself: "What would Garrosh do?"

    #wwgd

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