Last Epic Spectral Tiger Mount NA .... video proof

[JerseyGhoul]

I'm sure this won't count as evidence for anyone who refuses to believe evidence can exist, but here's a guy who was involved in, and explains, how duping worked in WoW:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hABj_mrP-no

Video is from a defcon talk, guest speaker was sued into the ground by blizzard for being a bot writer iirc. Super interesting talk.

[Poe]

You can tell Rokpanda's information is limited to MMO/ official WoW forums lol

There was so much duping going on pre WoD, it was ridiculous.

[RoKPaNda]

Look up what evidence actually is. Eyewitness accounts are evidence. If everyone else's story matches and contradicts yours, yours is probably wrong. Especially since you have just as much chance of knowing as everyone else.

Saying there's zero evidence is only evidence you have no idea what evidence actually is.

It's kinda funny, but also kind of sad, that I've been playing so long that I remember The Great Duping.. And that there are now players that, for some reason, doubt it's existence in history. Like Blizzard is infallible towards something like that.

Every expansion has some kind of 'dupe' in it. Lately it's been repeatable, exploitable AP missions.

The Spectral Tiger mount was absolutely 100% duped. The Shadowmourne items were 100% duped as well. Maybe OP's wasn't, but the event happened, just like the old 'gnomes falling from the sky spelling words' events happened.

When you refuse to accept the never-since-seen market trends surrounding the dupes as proof in and of itself then it's going to be hard to prove it by your standards. What do you expect? A video in chinese that's irrefutably made on live servers 8 years ago? My guess is that you would dismiss it as private server shenanigans regardless. Who would come forward when there's nothing to gain?
Would *you* share your recipe for cheap and easy homemade gold?

The market trends we saw IS the proof. Like market prices dropping 10% by the hour on rare and valuable items (you could watch them undercut each other live in trade chat), level 1 sellers with multiple of them available, trading from different account than they advertise from (I bought quite a few pets myself for a fraction of the value before the market was flooded). Some of them even told me they were able to buy large quantities cheap from a guy, a guy which I eventually got put in contact with myself. That specific dupe was "sadly" only possible with TCG pets. Discussions on every relevant forum, blue posts, people claimed being banned, warnings etc. People having items removed from their inventories.
This thing was real and it was on fire.

And then suddenly: poof, all gone.

I actually even saw a video of a dupe back then, after it was fixed obviously. Why would I then save it, and why would you think it's not long since been deleted, irrelevant as it quickly became, when even both the original wow forum and "mmowned.com", as it was named back then, got a reboot?

Tl;dr: There was loads of proof back then, no-one saw any use of keeping it, and it's mostly gone today except for our memories. No dupe existed for long, there were different methods.

Dismissing the market trends as proof because "Weird shit happens" is even more arrogant than basically demanding working reproducible duping methods as the only proof good enough for you.

- - - Updated - - -



So much this.

"Eye witness" accounts that aren't actually eye witness accounts. In this case you don't have "eye witnesses" btw. You have people who believe in duping and tell you that it happened because they "saw it" with no proof, and you have people who say "Oh yes I duped." again with no proof. That's not proving anything. If this was good enough then we could conclude that all cryptids (big foot, nessie, etc) are real because people the world over have claimed to have seen them. Yeah doesn't work right? Doesn't work here either.

Market anomalies that happened near the ends of at least three expansions with gems/raid mats/very specific mounts. Weird? Yup. Proof of duping? No, not by itself.

Forum discussion isn't evidence of dupes. In Vanilla WoW there was forum discussion on every relevant forum about how Ony suddenly casts Deep Breath more. The popularity of urban legends doesn't make them true. Widely held beliefs aren't evidence either.

Making excuses for why there's no video evidence isn't helping your case. This is the internet, you can find videos of WoW from 15 years ago. Why is this one specific thing the exception? It just all magically disappeared from the internet. I'd also like to remind you of the time in D3 that Kripparian convinced people that a dupe existed by overlaying a screenshot over his stream to create the illusion that he duped gold.

The idea that there is some sort of mass duping requires you to believe that over the course of several years (Wrath - MoP at least) that Blizzard was so incompetent that they didn't fix these duping exploits that only worked on specific mounts, gems, and raid mats. If you bought mats that were stolen from someone's hacked account they'd strip the mats from you, that we can verify, but they're so grossly incompetent that they didn't remove these supposed duped mounts / mats / gems. I bought some of these cheap mounts for myself and I bought some of the cheap raid mats for my guild in the relevant times and nothing ever happened. You have to believe that Blizzard is the most disgustingly incompetent people to ever exist and simultaneously that the dupers are the best secret keepers in the entire world because a decade after the first alleged dupes nobody knows how they worked and there's no evidence of them on the internet other than someone's random memories of the time and a widely held belief.

So again if you're just going to provide conjecture instead of actual proof of duping, and engage in Ad hominem because someone doesn't share the same belief that you do without evidence, don't waste everyone's time.

Btw nobody demanded working reproducible duping methods, just any sort of actual proof that they ever existed. This is the internet.

I'm sure this won't count as evidence for anyone who refuses to believe evidence can exist, but here's a guy who was involved in, and explains, how duping worked in WoW:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hABj_mrP-no

Video is from a defcon talk, guest speaker was sued into the ground by blizzard for being a bot writer iirc. Super interesting talk.

Do you have a timestamp for the bolded part? When he talks about item duping in MMOs he mentions pretty much every MMO except WoW. I could have missed it at some point in the 50 minute video, so if you have a timestamp that would be great, but when they're talking about how dupes work in MMOs in that video they don't talk about WoW. They talk about Conan, FFXIV, Runescape, and a couple others, but not WoW. Thanks for actually linking a video.

[Twdft]

Do you have a timestamp for the bolded part?

19:15 but I wonder why bother, the only proof you seem to accept would be doing it yourself

[RoKPaNda]

19:15 but I wonder why bother, the only proof you seem to accept would be doing it yourself

Thanks. Not sure why you had to lie and make up that second part about what proof I'd accept though. All I want is some simple proof that it happened. That's very much proof of one-off dupes during world server crashes / tricking a GM / etc, which nobody has ever disputed. Still nothing about all these controllable mass mount dupes that supposedly happened across every major server though. That's what I'm disputing, that's what I've never seen any evidence of.

[Tronski]

"Eye witness" accounts that aren't actually eye witness accounts. In this case you don't have "eye witnesses" btw. You have people who believe in duping and tell you that it happened because they "saw it" with no proof, and you have people who say "Oh yes I duped." again with no proof. That's not proving anything. If this was good enough then we could conclude that all cryptids (big foot, nessie, etc) are real because people the world over have claimed to have seen them. Yeah doesn't work right? Doesn't work here either.

Market anomalies that happened near the ends of at least three expansions with gems/raid mats/very specific mounts. Weird? Yup. Proof of duping? No, not by itself.

Forum discussion isn't evidence of dupes. In Vanilla WoW there was forum discussion on every relevant forum about how Ony suddenly casts Deep Breath more. The popularity of urban legends doesn't make them true. Widely held beliefs aren't evidence either.

Making excuses for why there's no video evidence isn't helping your case. This is the internet, you can find videos of WoW from 15 years ago. Why is this one specific thing the exception? It just all magically disappeared from the internet. I'd also like to remind you of the time in D3 that Kripparian convinced people that a dupe existed by overlaying a screenshot over his stream to create the illusion that he duped gold.

The idea that there is some sort of mass duping requires you to believe that over the course of several years (Wrath - MoP at least) that Blizzard was so incompetent that they didn't fix these duping exploits that only worked on specific mounts, gems, and raid mats. If you bought mats that were stolen from someone's hacked account they'd strip the mats from you, that we can verify, but they're so grossly incompetent that they didn't remove these supposed duped mounts / mats / gems. I bought some of these cheap mounts for myself and I bought some of the cheap raid mats for my guild in the relevant times and nothing ever happened. You have to believe that Blizzard is the most disgustingly incompetent people to ever exist and simultaneously that the dupers are the best secret keepers in the entire world because a decade after the first alleged dupes nobody knows how they worked and there's no evidence of them on the internet other than someone's random memories of the time and a widely held belief.

So again if you're just going to provide conjecture instead of actual proof of duping, and engage in Ad hominem because someone doesn't share the same belief that you do without evidence, don't waste everyone's time.

Btw nobody demanded working reproducible duping methods, just any sort of actual proof that they ever existed. This is the internet.



Do you have a timestamp for the bolded part? When he talks about item duping in MMOs he mentions pretty much every MMO except WoW. I could have missed it at some point in the 50 minute video, so if you have a timestamp that would be great, but when they're talking about how dupes work in MMOs in that video they don't talk about WoW. They talk about Conan, FFXIV, Runescape, and a couple others, but not WoW. Thanks for actually linking a video.

I'm actually going to write you off as a troll at this point.

The difference between loch ness and duping is that there's an actual cause-effect that's traceable with duping. It's not a case of "I swear I saw it" - it affected thousands of people directly, even you. I also told you I had direct contact with a distributor myself. That's not an eye-witness, that was me dealing directly with a duper/ middle man. And for some mysterious reason he, like everyone else, wanted to sell really cheap fast instead of just selling his legit codes/cards full priced on eBay.

And comparing it to an end-of-expansion clearance sale is just insulting, and you know that. No-one sells a mount it forever will cost 100k to make for 20k even then, and certainly not everyone.

I was also pretty clear that new methods pops up from time to time, that's not incompetence from Blizzard, that's clever use of new game mechanics/code with situations Blizzard couldn't possibly think of before the fact. And they fixed it every time.

Say I could dig up an old method used to dupe in WoW, how would you verify it is/was real and accept it as proof?

In the video they mentioned the following example in WoW: finishing a craft, trade and being summoned simultaneously, possibly tool-assisted. They also mentioned moving items hundreds of times per second to overflow, tool-assisted. I dont know if these were actual working techniques or just examples of odd behaviour Blizzard wouldn't expect, but there you have two methods.

How would you know, and how exactly would you verify them?

Oh, and for shits and giggles: blue post confirming duping is a thing in WoW: https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...6963201#post-9
https://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=206581

And lastly: do you seriously believe that exploits aren't a thing in this flawless game?

[RoKPaNda]

Dont waste your time with that guy, he is delusional and wont accept anything other than you coming to his home to dupe in front of him lmao.

Or literally any proof at all.

I'm actually going to write you off as a troll at this point.

The difference between loch ness and duping is that there's an actual cause-effect that's traceable with duping. It's not a case of "I swear I saw it" - it affected thousands of people directly, even you. I also told you I had direct contact with a distributor myself. That's not an eye-witness, that was me dealing directly with a duper/ middle man. And for some mysterious reason he, like everyone else, wanted to sell really cheap fast instead of just selling his legit codes/cards full priced on eBay.

And comparing it to an end-of-expansion clearance sale is just insulting, and you know that. No-one sells a mount it forever will cost 100k to make for 20k even then, and certainly not everyone.

I was also pretty clear that new methods pops up from time to time, that's not incompetence from Blizzard, that's clever use of new game mechanics/code with situations Blizzard couldn't possibly think of before the fact. And they fixed it every time.

Say I could dig up an old method used to dupe in WoW, how would you verify it is/was real and accept it as proof?

In the video they mentioned the following example in WoW: finishing a craft, trade and being summoned simultaneously, possibly tool-assisted. They also mentioned moving items hundreds of times per second to overflow, tool-assisted. I dont know if these were actual working techniques or just examples of odd behaviour Blizzard wouldn't expect, but there you have two methods.

How would you know, and how exactly would you verify them?

Oh, and for shits and giggles: blue post confirming duping is a thing in WoW: https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...6963201#post-9
https://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=206581

And lastly: do you seriously believe that exploits aren't a thing in this flawless game?

I'm going to do the same with you tbh. I've never said that there were no exploits in this game, and I've never said there weren't one-off dupes in the event of a server crash or tricking a GM. The only thing I'm disputing is some sort of reproducible widespread dupe. Which you've offered ZERO evidence of. I never said anything about an end of expansion clearance sale either, I just noted that the timing during expansions with each alleged dupe were similar.

You telling me that you dealt directly with a duper doesn't carry any more weight than someone telling me that they saw big foot with their own two eyes. Maybe less since you don't even have a blurry photograph for proof.

Your blue post contradicts the point you're trying to make in this thread. In that blue post they say that when dupes (read: The ones that we know exist and can prove exist that happen via server crashes, tricking GMs, etc) happen they're removed. That completely contradicts everything we know about the allegedly duped mounts because we all still have them. I never had my gems and raid mats that I bought taken away from me because they were duped, only because the seller stole them from a hacked account once.

You should probably watch the video again, because he's speaking about MMOs in a general sense, not WoW specifically, when he's giving those examples. He specifically mentions several other games there, not WoW.

I think it's kind of cute that you're trying to paint me as thinking that this is some flawless game when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm just telling you that I've seen proof of every exploit imaginable in this game, but never have seen any proof of the kind of duping that you're alleging. It's fascinating that no videos or anything have continued to exist to prove that this happened, and yet they exist for every other exploit that's ever happened in this game. Shit, you can still find videos of exploits from older games than WoW .. Just not these specific ones.

So again ... That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. If you do actually get some evidence I'd love to see it, you very much have the ability to change my mind on the subject, but I'm not interested in any more ad hominem or big foot stories.

[Castration]

Feel free to ask any questions.

Why did you make this thread?

[Violent]

Sure sure.

Blizzard and its infallible game could never let such things happen, never mind the numerous testimonies and videos to the contrary.

Just fuckin' link him to something, and get it over with... You don't argue with stupids, it only takes you down to their level.

[lollerlaban]

I'm actually going to write you off as a troll at this point.

The difference between loch ness and duping is that there's an actual cause-effect that's traceable with duping. It's not a case of "I swear I saw it" - it affected thousands of people directly, even you. I also told you I had direct contact with a distributor myself. That's not an eye-witness, that was me dealing directly with a duper/ middle man. And for some mysterious reason he, like everyone else, wanted to sell really cheap fast instead of just selling his legit codes/cards full priced on eBay.

And comparing it to an end-of-expansion clearance sale is just insulting, and you know that. No-one sells a mount it forever will cost 100k to make for 20k even then, and certainly not everyone.

I was also pretty clear that new methods pops up from time to time, that's not incompetence from Blizzard, that's clever use of new game mechanics/code with situations Blizzard couldn't possibly think of before the fact. And they fixed it every time.

Say I could dig up an old method used to dupe in WoW, how would you verify it is/was real and accept it as proof?

In the video they mentioned the following example in WoW: finishing a craft, trade and being summoned simultaneously, possibly tool-assisted. They also mentioned moving items hundreds of times per second to overflow, tool-assisted. I dont know if these were actual working techniques or just examples of odd behaviour Blizzard wouldn't expect, but there you have two methods.

How would you know, and how exactly would you verify them?

Oh, and for shits and giggles: blue post confirming duping is a thing in WoW: https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...6963201#post-9
https://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=206581

And lastly: do you seriously believe that exploits aren't a thing in this flawless game?

He's just trolling, leave the bongo alone. Even evidence shown ingame like the Onyx panther selling for under vendor price for ages due to duping is not enough to convince these people.

[alexs]

You mean the same forum where some random posted that the armory API was spitting out sub numbers and came up with the hoax about BFA's sub numbers shortly after launch? The hoax that the author(s) of WeakAuras fell for, tweeted about, and caused a shitstorm and people still cite to this day that have no basis in reality? Yeah.

Ever since late Wrath of the Lich King people have been speculating about dupes when they see more of an item than usual in the auction house, and now a full decade later after these "dupes" have doubtlessly been fixed, still nobody has ever offered any actual proof of one. Whether it's mounts, or it's crafting mats (which has been speculated about every expansion since Wrath.) - Zero proof, just speculation. Clearly then these dupes were the best kept secret in the world and world governments envy these dupers for their secrecy.

Clearly when I bought Sandstone Drake from AH at the half of the material prices.

[Tronski]

Or literally any proof at all.



I'm going to do the same with you tbh. I've never said that there were no exploits in this game, and I've never said there weren't one-off dupes in the event of a server crash or tricking a GM. The only thing I'm disputing is some sort of reproducible widespread dupe. Which you've offered ZERO evidence of. I never said anything about an end of expansion clearance sale either, I just noted that the timing during expansions with each alleged dupe were similar.

You telling me that you dealt directly with a duper doesn't carry any more weight than someone telling me that they saw big foot with their own two eyes. Maybe less since you don't even have a blurry photograph for proof.

Your blue post contradicts the point you're trying to make in this thread. In that blue post they say that when dupes (read: The ones that we know exist and can prove exist that happen via server crashes, tricking GMs, etc) happen they're removed. That completely contradicts everything we know about the allegedly duped mounts because we all still have them. I never had my gems and raid mats that I bought taken away from me because they were duped, only because the seller stole them from a hacked account once.

You should probably watch the video again, because he's speaking about MMOs in a general sense, not WoW specifically, when he's giving those examples. He specifically mentions several other games there, not WoW.

I think it's kind of cute that you're trying to paint me as thinking that this is some flawless game when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm just telling you that I've seen proof of every exploit imaginable in this game, but never have seen any proof of the kind of duping that you're alleging. It's fascinating that no videos or anything have continued to exist to prove that this happened, and yet they exist for every other exploit that's ever happened in this game. Shit, you can still find videos of exploits from older games than WoW .. Just not these specific ones.

So again ... That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. If you do actually get some evidence I'd love to see it, you very much have the ability to change my mind on the subject, but I'm not interested in any more ad hominem or big foot stories.

I'm actually gonna turn the burden of proof over to you. You need to tell us *exactly how* people got hold of such large quantitites of these mounts and pets. How exactly did these insane quantities of rare and valuable items suddenly pop up from nowhere and flood the market?

And no. No human going through the trouble of even getting them would ever stockpile them for the sole sake of selling them cheap all at once. That's especially true for the Crimson Deahcharger.

[Shakana]

He is saying it's his last one, and it's on NA not EU.

He is asking for advice and all you get is sad because you think he is flexing on you. He is not flexing, he is trying to sell it, that's not flexing. Love of god.


OP, i think gold cap would be enough.

[Realtalk]

Since this has been fixed since 4.3.2.
Here's why you saw so many people in and out of halls of lightning.

Toon B - Helper Toon A needs to have three lesser heavenly shards on him and his inventory needs to have at least 1 regular heavenly shard, which ill explain later.
Step 1 - Park toon a and b in front of an instance and open trade
Step 2 - Toon a puts an item in the box and clicks accept
Step 3 - Toon b hits accept and runs into the instance at the same time
Step 4 - Toon a is now bugged, but in order to start the process to dupe you must /logout
Step 5 - Because Toon a is now bugged he wont log out for 15 minutes, he however will not be able to cast or interact with the game in any other way either.
Step 6 - Toon a now disconnects himself, and starts a timer for 60 seconds
Step 7 - At 60 seconds Toon A logs his account back into the game and is now able to cast spells and interact with items. Theory behind this is hes logging back in at the exact moment the game is logging his toon out of the game post disconnect
Step 8 - Now when Toon A combines those 3 lesser heavenly shards to form a regular heavenly shard it wont consume the 3 lesser mats at all, but still stacks the shard onto the one you already have in your inventory.
Step 9 - However when the 15 minutes is up those fake shards will disappear unless you delete one of them off the stack. Thus when the 15 minutes is up and you finally actually log out you have now duped heavenly shards, or any other item that requires mats to create, like say for example a vial of the sands

[RoKPaNda]

I'm actually gonna turn the burden of proof over to you. You need to tell us *exactly how* people got hold of such large quantitites of these mounts and pets. How exactly did these insane quantities of rare and valuable items suddenly pop up from nowhere and flood the market?

And no. No human going through the trouble of even getting them would ever stockpile them for the sole sake of selling them cheap all at once. That's especially true for the Crimson Deahcharger.

Burden of proof doesn't work that way. I'm not the one making any claims. The burden of proof is on people that claim that a repeatable controllable dupe happened for mounts and such. I never made the claim that anyone stockpiled anything, I just pointed out a similarity in timing.

[Tronski]

Burden of proof doesn't work that way. I'm not the one making any claims. The burden of proof is on people that claim that a repeatable controllable dupe happened for mounts and such. I never made the claim that anyone stockpiled anything, I just pointed out a similarity in timing.

Oh, but you are claiming that there for some unknown reason were more of these rare items than ever before or since, and that everyone in the world decided to sell their legitimate rare, limited and valuable items, all at once and at a reduced price.

I want to know why there were so unusually many rare items abailable and why everyone had to unload them within such a short timeframe.

Your claim is that it weren't dupes, now back it up with facts, numbers and blue posts.

Also, you completely ignored the post above yours which gave you the recipe of a legitimate dupe.

[Socialhealer]

Oh, but you are claiming that there for some unknown reason were more of these rare items than ever before or since, and that everyone in the world decided to sell their legitimate rare, limited and valuable items, all at once and at a reduced price.

I want to know why there were so unusually many rare items abailable and why everyone had to unload them within such a short timeframe.

Your claim is that it weren't dupes, now back it up with facts, numbers and blue posts.

There's really 1 simple way to prove dupes existed and no fathomable reason to think otherwise.

the epic JC panther mounts were selling for 25k on my realm for like 2 months straight, the mats were 64k in orbs from a vendor with max discounts i believe, might be 72k.

without dupes it's impossible to make a single gold selling those, you cannot make a profit from selling something at 25k that costs a minimum of 64k from a vendor+living steel and many rare gems UNLESS you duplicated items then they cost 0gold then 25k is a profit!

notice how those epic panthers are 100k+ now no-one can seem to knock them out for 25k anymore, strange that huh.

[Tronski]

There's really 1 simple way to prove dupes existed and no fathomable reason to think otherwise.

the epic JC panther mounts were selling for 25k on my realm for like 2 months straight, the mats were 64k in orbs from a vendor with max discounts i believe, might be 72k.

without dupes it's impossible to make a single gold selling those, you cannot make a profit from selling something at 25k that costs a minimum of 64k from a vendor+living steel and many rare gems UNLESS you duplicated items then they cost 0gold then 25k is a profit!

notice how those epic panthers are 100k+ now no-one can seem to knock them out for 25k anymore, strange that huh.

Oh, I know this, but circumstantial evidence is not proof according to RoK.

According to RoK there are simple explanations:

1: People are dumb.
2: Weird shit happens.
3: People hoard valuables and unload them at the same time.
4: People unload their sellables at the end of expansions (despite these dupes and market crashes happened mid-expansions).
5: ????
6: People don't like profit.

And yes, I also miss the dumb people willing to sell crafted mounts for 1/4 of the material vendor cost.