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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    As for casterloot in BWL:

    Since we don't really know the Idol of Night droprate/farmability etc in AQ, for casters, for any sensible guild, you'd assign 'the big 3' (mish/staff/tear) to both mages and locks, to either one who contributes most to the raid or guild in general.
    Just no.

    1) Mages never want the staff.
    2) Locks need Tear more.
    3) If you have locks outperforming mages you should look for better mages, simple as that, and not waste valuable rare loot on locks. Give them Tear though, that's their senority reward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    There'll always be failing officers of some lesser guilds trying to argue for Mish and mage prio but it really makes no sense as on private servers I was behind a 20 warrior roster for my t2.5 head as lock anyway and in AQ locks are on par with mages and also rate crit.
    Locks are nowhere near mages in AQ. If you see that happening you need to look for better mages, simple as that. I get it that you're a lock player and it kind of sucks, but if you really have your guild as a priority you should accept that good mage will always destroy a good lock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    Not healthy for any guild bar top5 to look MONTHS ahead.
    That's a good advice. If you see your locks beating mages just look for new mages asap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    Treat casters equally in that regard, and remember casters only rate the big 3 as upgrades. Getting 5 pieces tier2 while someone else is getting mish/tear/staff is drama time and you'd lose casters who aren't stupid to see what's happening, rather build a strong core of valued and happy players to have a good raid atmosphere.
    That doesnt work like that. Unless you have a bunch of officer caliber players in your core the only happy players are going to be the people getting loot. So my advice is always kind of the same - show people performing that you value their contribution by rewarding it with the items they want, and explain to everyone else what they need to do to get the same treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    For many especially on Horde (where shaman can get it instead) claw of chromaggus doesn't count towards this big 3 for good players btw, it's often used as a dummy item to keep a lower performing person 'happy'. Hence shamans usually all end up with Claw first.
    True. Usually going towards that PvP-heavy mage you want to keep around or a shaman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    Then on ally side you'd have Paladins thrown into the mix, which should have prio on Lok'Amir over priests, having no benediction available and priests should get their AQ20 mace easily after anyway. The only 'problem' here is Mish'undare, again go for most contributions and don't lock a paladin out, as it's crit is generally underrated to people not understanding the paladin class and (properly) played playstyle. Compromise was usually first the core mages and locks, then the paladins, or at least the Paladins for Mish over any mage 'raidalt' or god forbid, a trial. Personally I'd treat all 3 classes equally on it for good skilled/contributing players who never skip a raid.
    Crit is heavily overrated. You're spamming FoL until Naxx, and only then crit becomes kinda decent. At this point all of your casters should have their Mish already.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    err wait maybe the priest mace reward from AQ20 is this
    Gavel of Infinite Wisdom 11 int 10 stam 90 healing 4 mp 5 (requires exalted with Cenarian Circle) https://classic.wowhead.com/item=214...nfinite-wisdom

    36 spellpower isn't that good, I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
    He's talking about the priest mace yes.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Hottage View Post
    *SNIP*
    You spent way to much time on this, but it is a thing of beauty.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    Ok so going through the weapons:
    Spineshatter has +def and not a lot of stats, guessing it's for tanks
    Maladath looks like it was intended for tanks but I see it's BiS as an offhand for fury warriors probably because of +4 swords

    And I'm not an expert but all three of these look pretty solid for rogues or fury warriors:
    Chromatically tempered sword 14 agi / 14 str looks like it's great for rogues and warriors
    Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos 2.3 ax 36 AP 13 stam https://classic.wowhead.com/item=193...-edge-of-chaos
    Claw of the Black Drake 2.6 MH fist 13 str 7 stam 1% crit https://classic.wowhead.com/item=193...he-black-drake
    Doom's Edge 2.3 ax 16 agi 9 str 7 stam https://classicdb.ch/?item=19362

    The 2Handers I'd need some help with, as they're a combo of procs, strength, agility, and crit. I also forget what 2H weapons hunters can use in classic, I know polearms but that's about it.

    On the ranged weapons:
    Heartstriker Bow 24 AP 9 Stam https://classicdb.ch/?item=19350#comments
    Dragonbreath Hand Cannon 14 Agi 7 Stam https://classicdb.ch/?item=19368
    Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting 36 ranged AP 7 stam https://classicdb.ch/?item=19361

    I'm guessing Ashjre'thul is BiS for hunters and Heartstriker is bad for them. But I dunno if the DPS on Heartstriker would be high enough that it'd be an upgrade for a hunter that didn't get anything out of Molten Core.

    The Hand Cannon is more interesting as rogues, warriors, and hunters can all use AP.

    Oh and how legit is dagger tanking as a warrior for more heroic strikes? The dragonfang blade or whatever dagger has a 1.8 speed though.

    I also don't really see an off-hand to go with Lok'amir, 84 healing on a 1H is amazing but it looks like the off-hand from the head turn in or maybe some AV offhands are the best to go with it.
    Never saw any warriors with Maladath in vanilla. Not tanks nor dps. Buts that’s maybe because most warriors used 2H to dps.

    Maladath was mainly used by rogues in OH with CTS in MH. But both were very rare though. Didn’t see many drop.

  4. #24
    Bracers of Arcane Accuracy, staff of the Shadowflame, Neltharion's tear, Mish'undare, Band of Forced Concentration.

    These are not only bis for all caster dps but all 5 are considerably better than any other alternative in their respective slot aswell.

    These will be the biggest chase items.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by babyback View Post
    Never saw any warriors with Maladath in vanilla. Not tanks nor dps. Buts that’s maybe because most warriors used 2H to dps.

    Maladath was mainly used by rogues in OH with CTS in MH. But both were very rare though. Didn’t see many drop.
    Very few people knew how weapon skill worked, most people assumed that it's useless once your weapon skill is maxxed, that's why.
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  6. #26
    Grand Marshal Hottage Hottage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Very few people knew how weapon skill worked, most people assumed that it's useless once your weapon skill is maxxed, that's why.
    I always ran with 315 weapon skill to reduce those glancing blows. :3
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    For many especially on Horde (where shaman can get it instead) claw of chromaggus doesn't count towards this big 3 for good players btw, it's often used as a dummy item to keep a lower performing person 'happy'. Hence shamans usually all end up with Claw first.
    Resto/Elemental Shaman actually use their weapon slots as weapon slots (albeit not so much in raids), so they have a strong preference for fast 1-handed weapons (i.e. daggers). In contrast, the valuable weapon features of the Claw are meaningless to all other dps casters/healers, so the Claw tends to tilt over into the "Shaman priority" category (although an "all casters are equal" categorization would be common as well). Note that this is also why the seemingly unremarkable Fang of Venoxis is a 'Shaman weapon'.

    Then on ally side you'd have Paladins thrown into the mix, which should have prio on Lok'Amir over priests, having no benediction available and priests should get their AQ20 mace easily after anyway. The only 'problem' here is Mish'undare, again go for most contributions and don't lock a paladin out, as it's crit is generally underrated to people not understanding the paladin class and (properly) played playstyle. Compromise was usually first the core mages and locks, then the paladins, or at least the Paladins for Mish over any mage 'raidalt' or god forbid, a trial. Personally I'd treat all 3 classes equally on it for good skilled/contributing players who never skip a raid.
    Critical tends to be over-rated for Paladins, not under-rated. Illumination/critical solves a problem Paladins don't have (efficiency) while exacerbating a problem they do have (throughput). Couple that with the fact that there just aren't enough fights to stress a Paladin's mana and Illumination is arguably a useless talent (for raiding) until Naxx.

    Paladins also have equivalent/better options. Helm of the Lifegiver or their T2 helm are both very similar in quality and don't require allocating rare and highly-sought-after cloth dps caster gear to your healer. Most guilds don't let Paladins roll on the Azuresong Mageblade (where the lack of healing weapons makes it BiS for quite some time). I'm having trouble imagining a guild where Paladins were given Mish'undre.

  8. #28
    I think the real question is whether or not Lok'amir is a Druid mace or a Shaman mace.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I think the real question is whether or not Lok'amir is a Druid mace or a Shaman mace.
    It's a Paladin mace, silly goose.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    It's a Paladin mace, silly goose.
    Lmao, the Horde doesn't have Paladins. To play a Paladin, you'd need to actually be Allia- Oh.

  11. #31
    Maladath:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    It's BiS for all melee, but usually it's MT>Rogues>Warriors with good MH (R14/CTS).
    Just make sure you don't give it to the MT who already is promised Thunderfury

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    I thought attack power did nothing for hunters, only ranged attack power.
    AP = all attack power
    Melee Attackpower = melee attack power (like blessing of might)
    Ranged Attackpower = ranged attackpower (like hunters mark)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VigilantRose View Post
    Critical tends to be over-rated for Paladins, not under-rated. Illumination/critical solves a problem Paladins don't have (efficiency) while exacerbating a problem they do have (throughput). Couple that with the fact that there just aren't enough fights to stress a Paladin's mana and Illumination is arguably a useless talent (for raiding) until Naxx.
    I kinda agree that there's no mana intensive fights for a long time as a Paladin but crit isn't under-rated at all, the more crit you have the better it becomes and that allows you to spend less effort (time, gold) on consumables.
    If you really wanted to you could spam heal for 10 minutes if you use all consumables and buffs there is, doesn't mean Crit is over-rated...
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I kinda agree that there's no mana intensive fights for a long time as a Paladin but crit isn't under-rated at all, the more crit you have the better it becomes and that allows you to spend less effort (time, gold) on consumables.
    If you really wanted to you could spam heal for 10 minutes if you use all consumables and buffs there is, doesn't mean Crit is over-rated...
    Under-rated or over-rated really depends on a subjective perception of what "most people think". So there's some flexibility in interpretation there. Clearly the poster I was replying to dramatically over-valued spell critical for Holy Paladins if they thought a dps caster cloth hat was great for Paladins because it had +2% spell critical.

    The itemization budget ratio for critical:healing is 31:1 and 16:1 for spellpower. If you're applying stat weights to evaluate gear at a BWL level, you should probably be using ~6:1 for critical:healing (or spellpower). That makes critical a stat to be avoided, not sought - you pay far more in itemization budget than you'd get in return. This is especially true when you consider the basic structure of Paladin healing (high efficiency, low throughput).

    Perhaps a better way to express this is to recognize that Paladins generally need spell critical less than other healers, not more. Nature's Grace is effectively a "+100% critical effect" talent for Resto Druids - something no other healer receives. Inspiration and Ancestral Healing can provide enormous amounts of mitigation that scales super-linearly with critical. Illumination? It merely refunds mana the Paladin probably doesn't need anyway. Yet how often do you see Druids/Shaman/Priests getting excited about a piece of gear because it has it has spell critical on it? Now, maybe your experience with how players talk about gearing is different than mine. Maybe I've just managed to run across Paladins who over-value critical while missing the legions of Druids gearing for pure spell critical.

    But the overall point remains the same: spell critical is not a particularly good stat for vanilla Holy Paladins. You're far better off with spellpower/healing. You're probably better off with Intellect and mp5.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Heathy's Avatar
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    I can see me wanting the Drake Fang Talisman as a tank for the hit, but I can also see all melee dps drooling over it. its does have 1% dodge, would go quite nicely with styleen's.

    the class trinkets seem kinda shit compared to the other loot in bwl.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    I can see me wanting the Drake Fang Talisman as a tank for the hit, but I can also see all melee dps drooling over it. its does have 1% dodge, would go quite nicely with styleen's.

    the class trinkets seem kinda shit compared to the other loot in bwl.
    DFT could drop every week and you wouldn't have enough for everyone who wants it. Prepare for some drama over it ;-)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    DFT could drop every week and you wouldn't have enough for everyone who wants it. Prepare for some drama over it ;-)
    I can see the same for Tear trinket. As a Shadow Priest, Mish is listed as BiS but Crit isn't that great and I can survive with the Felt Hat until ZG. But the Tear will last into Naxx for most casters quite easily I'd imagine.

  17. #37
    Legendary! jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatowizard View Post
    This isn't a joke. But Ashkandi is a hunter weapon. Yes, other melee can use it too. But they have a large pool of options for two handers in BWL and from MC with better stats. This is the only two hander with just straight Attack power.
    Yup.

    Warriors can cream themselves when it and Zinrokh drop because they want it for PvP but any good guild will give these to their Hunters first and keep the 1H weapons reserved for melee.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by VigilantRose View Post
    Under-rated or over-rated really depends on a subjective perception of what "most people think". So there's some flexibility in interpretation there. Clearly the poster I was replying to dramatically over-valued spell critical for Holy Paladins if they thought a dps caster cloth hat was great for Paladins because it had +2% spell critical.

    The itemization budget ratio for critical:healing is 31:1 and 16:1 for spellpower. If you're applying stat weights to evaluate gear at a BWL level, you should probably be using ~6:1 for critical:healing (or spellpower). That makes critical a stat to be avoided, not sought - you pay far more in itemization budget than you'd get in return. This is especially true when you consider the basic structure of Paladin healing (high efficiency, low throughput).

    Perhaps a better way to express this is to recognize that Paladins generally need spell critical less than other healers, not more. Nature's Grace is effectively a "+100% critical effect" talent for Resto Druids - something no other healer receives. Inspiration and Ancestral Healing can provide enormous amounts of mitigation that scales super-linearly with critical. Illumination? It merely refunds mana the Paladin probably doesn't need anyway. Yet how often do you see Druids/Shaman/Priests getting excited about a piece of gear because it has it has spell critical on it? Now, maybe your experience with how players talk about gearing is different than mine. Maybe I've just managed to run across Paladins who over-value critical while missing the legions of Druids gearing for pure spell critical.

    But the overall point remains the same: spell critical is not a particularly good stat for vanilla Holy Paladins. You're far better off with spellpower/healing. You're probably better off with Intellect and mp5.
    If you completely ignore crits unlinear scaling for both healing increase and efficiency (through illumination) then it's fairly simple to calculate the worth in terms of mp5.

    1% crit = 1 in 100 casts gives 100% mana back.
    Flash of Light rank 6 = 140 mana.
    1.5 sec cast time means 40 casts per minute (if full spamming) so you should get 1 illumination from 1% crit every 2 minutes.
    140 divided by 120 = 1.16 mp1 or 5.83 mp5.

    Then you have to consider the value of the unlinear scaling and healing increase. Not to forget which rank of Flash of Light you use, and how long a fight is.
    For throughput raw healing is almost always the best stat for Holy Paladins, for sustainability it really depends on how long encounters are. For example 1 Mp5 is worth 0.8 of int (or 80%) when encounters last for 1 minute, then 1.6 for 2 minutes and so on (based on how much mana 1 int is valued at).
    You could say 1% crit is worth around 6 mp5, I have it higher, if you work with statweights.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you completely ignore crits unlinear scaling for both healing increase and efficiency (through illumination) then it's fairly simple to calculate the worth in terms of mp5.

    1% crit = 1 in 100 casts gives 100% mana back.
    Flash of Light rank 6 = 140 mana.
    1.5 sec cast time means 40 casts per minute (if full spamming) so you should get 1 illumination from 1% crit every 2 minutes.
    140 divided by 120 = 1.16 mp1 or 5.83 mp5.
    Flash of Light (Rank 4) is a more common choice at 90 mana. 1% cost reduction would be 0.9 mana per cast. With 3.33 casts per 5 sec, this translates into 3 mp5.

    However, the itemization cost of critical is 14 while the itemization cost of mp5 is 2.5, so this is a 5.6:1 mp5:critical in terms of gearing cost.

    You noted that this doesn't reflect the additional throughput. However, it also doesn't reflect that long fights rarely require spam-healing for the duration. Every moment you're not casting, mp5 is ticking but Illumination is doing nothing.

    With that in mind, no healer should be gearing for longevity right now - and probably not until Naxx. And considering a Paladin for a cloth dps caster helm based on the notion that it's better than the +healing helms they can equip remains a bad notion.
    Last edited by VigilantRose; 2019-12-05 at 11:54 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by VigilantRose View Post
    Flash of Light (Rank 4) is a more common choice at 90 mana. 1% cost reduction would be 0.9 mana per cast. With 3.33 casts per 5 sec, this translates into 3 mp5.

    However, the itemization cost of critical is 14 while the itemization cost of mp5 is 2.5, so this is a 5.6:1 mp5:critical in terms of gearing cost.

    You noted that this doesn't reflect the additional throughput. However, it also doesn't reflect that long fights rarely require spam-healing for the duration. Every moment you're not casting, mp5 is ticking but Illumination is doing nothing.

    With that in mind, no healer should be gearing for longevity right now - and probably not until Naxx. And considering a Paladin for a cloth dps caster helm based on the notion that it's better than the +healing helms they can equip remains a bad notion.
    It's the same as Mageblade (paladinblade ) and all the other crit spelldamage items, caster dps get prio and then it's Paladins for the most part, maybe resto druids with moonglow/crit build... but that's not really potent yet.

    For BWL (and later) you also have to consider that paladin tier is garbage for healing until Naxx, even in Naxx it's just itemization which makes set good- not the bonuses. The best possible helmet for healing paladins to get their hands on in P3 (BWL) is the cloth helmet from a world boss, which you might as well ignore because it's so rare to get tags even if your faction dominates a realm... the other option is Mish'undare (the 2% crit helm) or the 1% crit + 33 healing leather helm from DM:North. Mish'undare is really good, not just because it has good itemization, but because there aren't (m)any options for paladins to go for.
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