Unable to quest / Hard to level outside of dungeons

[NihilSustinet]

That's not how it was in Vanilla, plenty of high levels out roaming the world ganking those still trying to level. Not sure why you think it'd be that way in Classic.

sure, but not nearly as many as there are now, thats all im saying

[Zentail]

Sure, if you consider dungeons PvE.

It's a choice your guild is making. Wanna speedrun - go ahead set higher requirements. Is it required to clear? No.

The question is what are you gonna do with that gear. Gear is a tool, not an endgoal.

So they forced everyone into raiding. Yea, you sound pretty logical right now.

Blizzard doesnt change anything. Players do. Until players have the kind of impact Classic will be attractive. Once that choice is gone Classic will become essentially retail but without all the QoL features.

You look an awful lot of my post well out of context. The whole post belonged together as a single point, not several different points. It doesn't matter anyway. What you're arguing about has no ground in the first place. In the end, your idea of "Classic is what you make it" isn't valid if it doesn't also apply to Retail because despite what people seem to think, they're the same game with the same choices and same paths that result in the same thing on both. Not to mention, that idea applies to literally all games ever. No matter what, though, there is always going to be an end-goal, and in order to reach that, all players will always have to do the exact same thing to reach it--something that also applies to all games.

There's always going to be a weapon that's better than the others, regardless of source. You want the best, you go get it.

There's always going to be a best roll in DnD (that sweet 20).

There's always going to be the best career in The Game of Life.

You make what you want of the games, but if you want to be the best, you have to get the same thing every single time. In Life, you need that property. Sure, choice of gameplay lets you choose the other options, but victory will be much harder. In WoW Classic, I can choose to use Deadmines gear at level 60, but I'm going to have a much harder time killing things, be it PvP or PvE.

Just for the lols, I want it to be clear you just said:

Sure, if you consider dungeons PvE.

This is one of those rare moments where someone says something so wrong that the entirety of the internet should bear witness to it. I didn't even take it out of context. That is literally all you had to say. I didn't even refer to dungeons. You did. If you don't think dungeons are PvE, you do not know what PvE content even is. It's not all it is, but PvE definitely entails dungeons and they are an incredibly large part of it.

As for your other points you tried making, you failed to realize that the idea of "choice" is only if you don't want to succeed. You don't "need" to do anything ever. Just like guilds don't "need" to bring you to things. It's min-maxing and most of it won't apply to most players who don't care to do that, but isn't the end-goal of gearing to get every little bit? If not, then you can go ahead and be one of the few happy living in the barely-making-it communities who refuses to progress for whatever reason I'm sure you can't come up with. (Not progressing when you can and being unable to progress are not the same thing. Busy lives make people unable to progress and that's fair, or maybe content is hard and your group is wiping and that's fine too.) #MyGameMyChoice am I right guys? You're right, it's your choice. No one needs to play with you for not wanting to upgrade that awesome Deadmines set. #YourGameYourChoice leads me to #MyGameMyChoice. But at least you are making Classic what you want. No one can take that from you. I don't know if you'll feel the same when people all stop looking at you or playing with you, but for now, it's working.

Out of curiosity, what is your end goal? For most people on Retail, it's to get every achievement in the game. They would still play afterwords, but they reached their end goal. For most people on Classic, the end goal is to get the best gear in every slot. Once they reach that, they'll keep playing too. The exception are the ones who just want to experience all of Classic (and they always refer to raids). Once Naxx is out and they clear it, they actually might stop playing. An incredibly vast majority of players I know and others I've just talked to fall into this category. You said that gear isn't an end goal, though. What's your end goal? If you can't reach it, then it's not a goal. Is your end goal to be #1 PvPer in the world? If all BiS gear is to you is just "a tool," then that's got to be the absolute only other end goal, right? I mean, you couldn't possibly want your end goal to be clearing raids, being #1 DPS/Tank/Heals for raids, or getting exalted reps because that's PvE content.

Maybe your struggle is you're one of those people who thinks Classic is more successful than Retail. Maybe consider that Retail is substantially more successful and maybe that's okay and you can still enjoy your game because of it, vs. if it wasn't, you wouldn't have Classic.

Vanilla didn't have Cross-realm BGs till the BC pre-patch. Classic does, and thus people will just camp out or duel in-between BGs.

People went out ganking because you had 30 minute or longer que times.

Vanilla did, in fact, have cross-realm BGs. They were introduced in 1.12 and existed for roughly 24% of the entirety of Vanilla before BC launched (content drought). Tons of people have been saying "it destroyed the community." in an attempt to get Blizzard to not do it, but most of us that played PvP actively back then know that 1) we queued and waited, we didn't go "participate in the community" anyway, and 2) PvP got a hell of a lot better because we could participate in it way more often. Not only that, 1.12 introduced a TON MORE PvP activity in the world because of other things it added, like the Silithus/Eastern Plaguelands stuff.

When BGs first launched, though, there was roughly a year and 2 months or something like that before 1.12 came out with that feature. It's good that it's cross-realm, in my opinion, because my "Full" pop server at launch is empty now. I don't see a single player anywhere doing anything anymore. I'd had to not be able to at least do BGs.

[kneehidude]

He said he wanted to xfer back after he levelled.

My apologies then!

[Pratt]

I remember in real vanilla needing a full raid to get in there.

[Outofmana]

That won't stop no, on every server there are more Horde, so even with Xrealm battlegrounds Horde will have long queues, and they'll go around BRM again / high level zones to get their honor while in queue.

Good luck on full pop PvP realms farming anything ever.

[Azerate]

That's what happens when you follow the fad and pick a pvp realm.

The funny thing is that "influencers" actually managed to convince a lot of people, that even if you are pve oriented you should go pvp realm, because that's the best way to experience wow classic and have fun...sorry, you were lied to, again.

[Thunderball]

they're the same game with the same choices and same paths that result in the same thing on both. Not to mention, that idea applies to literally all games ever. No matter what, though, there is always going to be an end-goal, and in order to reach that, all players will always have to do the exact same thing to reach it--something that also applies to all games.

There's always an end goal, sure. But in a good MMO you set the goal yourself, not the developer.

There's always going to be a weapon that's better than the others, regardless of source. You want the best, you go get it.

Again, gear is just a tool. It's not an endgoal.

You make what you want of the games, but if you want to be the best, you have to get the same thing every single time. In Life, you need that property. Sure, choice of gameplay lets you choose the other options, but victory will be much harder. In WoW Classic, I can choose to use Deadmines gear at level 60, but I'm going to have a much harder time killing things, be it PvP or PvE.

Again, short-sighted retail mentality on display. Who said the goal is to kill stuff in PvP or PvE?

Just for the lols, I want it to be clear you just said:

This is one of those rare moments where someone says something so wrong that the entirety of the internet should bear witness to it. I didn't even take it out of context. That is literally all you had to say. I didn't even refer to dungeons. You did. If you don't think dungeons are PvE, you do not know what PvE content even is. It's not all it is, but PvE definitely entails dungeons and they are an incredibly large part of it.

I dont consider dungeons PvE "content", although they play a much larger role in Classic than retail.

As for your other points you tried making, you failed to realize that the idea of "choice" is only if you don't want to succeed. You don't "need" to do anything ever. Just like guilds don't "need" to bring you to things. It's min-maxing and most of it won't apply to most players who don't care to do that, but isn't the end-goal of gearing to get every little bit?

No. Gear is a tool. You dont need the most powerful screwdriver to get the job done. You do however need it to get it done faster than the guy with the same skillset as you, but not everyone is interested in competing. Min-maxing works the same way - most of the time it's a result of competition but at times it's way to compensate for inferior skillsets. Same thing with consumables.

If not, then you can go ahead and be one of the few happy living in the barely-making-it communities who refuses to progress for whatever reason I'm sure you can't come up with. (Not progressing when you can and being unable to progress are not the same thing. Busy lives make people unable to progress and that's fair, or maybe content is hard and your group is wiping and that's fine too.) #MyGameMyChoice am I right guys? You're right, it's your choice. No one needs to play with you for not wanting to upgrade that awesome Deadmines set. #YourGameYourChoice leads me to #MyGameMyChoice. But at least you are making Classic what you want. No one can take that from you. I don't know if you'll feel the same when people all stop looking at you or playing with you, but for now, it's working.

You can, but obviously close to noone is interested. Important part is having that option.

Out of curiosity, what is your end goal? For most people on Retail, it's to get every achievement in the game. They would still play afterwords, but they reached their end goal. For most people on Classic, the end goal is to get the best gear in every slot. Once they reach that, they'll keep playing too. The exception are the ones who just want to experience all of Classic (and they always refer to raids). Once Naxx is out and they clear it, they actually might stop playing. An incredibly vast majority of players I know and others I've just talked to fall into this category. You said that gear isn't an end goal, though. What's your end goal? If you can't reach it, then it's not a goal. Is your end goal to be #1 PvPer in the world? If all BiS gear is to you is just "a tool," then that's got to be the absolute only other end goal, right? I mean, you couldn't possibly want your end goal to be clearing raids, being #1 DPS/Tank/Heals for raids, or getting exalted reps because that's PvE content.

Competition. Both PvP and PvE. Speedrunning, premades, stuff like that. Also funny, I remember when the achievement hunters first popped up in late TBC general public absolutely despised them, and now retail is filled with them.

Maybe your struggle is you're one of those people who thinks Classic is more successful than Retail. Maybe consider that Retail is substantially more successful and maybe that's okay and you can still enjoy your game because of it, vs. if it wasn't, you wouldn't have Classic.

I dont care. I like Classic more. And no, the only reason we have Classic is because retail went so far away from where it started, and is struggling because of it that a lot of people consider them different games, and rightfully so.

- - - Updated - - -

That's what happens when you follow the fad and pick a pvp realm.

The funny thing is that "influencers" actually managed to convince a lot of people, that even if you are pve oriented you should go pvp realm, because that's the best way to experience wow classic and have fun...sorry, you were lied to, again.

You werent. They just forgot to add that you cant be a shitter otherwise you're gonna be farmed. Why did they do that? Well obviously because they wanted more people to farm.

[Gaebryel Quintyne]

I rerolled on a RP-PvE server and I'll never leave, finally questing in peace and RPing at the same time. Let the edgy angst teens fight each other while I FINALLY enjoy this game

That is EXACTLY what I did... I re-rolled on a RP-PVE server (Bloodsail Buccaneers) as well and I will never leave from that server. I can RP as much as or as little as I want and not get ganked while questing/leveling.

[jakeic]

oh shut up. vanilla was NOT like this.

the only thing vanilla had was a horde raid on BRM on the weekend farming honor. that's pretty much it.

Every single zone was turned into a battleground. this damaged every aspect of the game. I just left a group to DMNorth cause our tank was getting ganked nonstop at theramore.

So please, don't insult my intelligence by saying this is how it was in vanilla. I say blizzard fucked up hard by not releasing BGs already. people are quitting left & right because of this.

I would just like to chime in here in agreement, this is not how Vanilla played in terms of PvP.

You can not fly to Thorium Point or Morgan's Vigil without being sheeped/sapped/mind controlled upon landing. Once dead from the 5+ horde at that flight path you will be killed twice at least on the way to BRM by a small horde raid riding around, the you’ll get to the mountain where you’ll die twice getting through the gate, two more times to get up the chain, and once more on the balcony. Any dungeon in BRM will require around 8 death runs. This is just absolutely insane, there’s no fighting back unless you have a raid due to the numbers of horde in each zone and the prevalence of spy, so these death runs add an additional 20 to 30 minutes to your run before it even starts.

It doesn’t just happen at BRM, Menithill Harbor has a horde raid killing people on the docks and on the boats, occasionally there are horde camping Theramore as well, Light's Hope has a horde raid killing you as you land, and even Ironforge has 4 or 5 horde rogues killing people at any given point in time. It isn’t quite every where, but any reasonable place has a group of horde killing people (Dire Maul, Gadget, Everlook, Felwood, etc.).

It is one thing to be killed, it is another to be camped, in Vanilla you would have the occasional guy camp you while leveling or if you’re farming mats, it wasn’t something you worried about happening to you and often was resolved with a friend coming to help because it would be a single person doing the camping. In Classic, being camped is the rule and having a one off encounter is the exception, and you should play the lotto if only a single person is camping your body because it’s your lucky day.

The ridiculous amount of corpse runs, gangbangs, and the camping have driven people away from the game, there is no doubt that had these been issues during Vanillas time Blizzard would have felt immense pressure to find some fixes for the more egregious abuses. For instance, guards on the dock and at flight paths like Morgan's Vigil, you know, since they added guards to areas in Vanilla.

[Schmilblick]

And that's why I like the new Warmode in Retail, want to PvP ? fine, don't want to PvP ? fine too.

[Seranthor]

To start off: This post is not to bitch and whine. I understand the game mechanics and how people are allowed to gank as much as they want. I love ganking people

I play on Herod - Alliance. Since the honor system was released its basically been impossible to level outside of instances. I'm leveling a mage. Lvl 52 currently. Anytime Ive gotten into a group for BRD. Horde are camping Throium Point FP and Morgan's Vigil FP. Also camping the whole way both paths to the instance. I had a good laugh last night about it. Like damn these guys sure like patting back and forth from FP to the dungeon.

Do you think this will stop when Battlegrounds come out? Any of the same experiences?

Do I think it will? It could, but you might want to have a backup plan if it doesn't.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you know if they said anything about putting in paid realm transfers?

I have heard nothing, and given that it was mid-2006 that paid transfers were introduced You might have a year or more if they hold to that timeline.

[kamuimac]

To start off: This post is not to bitch and whine. I understand the game mechanics and how people are allowed to gank as much as they want. I love ganking people

I play on Herod - Alliance. Since the honor system was released its basically been impossible to level outside of instances. I'm leveling a mage. Lvl 52 currently. Anytime Ive gotten into a group for BRD. Horde are camping Throium Point FP and Morgan's Vigil FP. Also camping the whole way both paths to the instance. I had a good laugh last night about it. Like damn these guys sure like patting back and forth from FP to the dungeon.

Do you think this will stop when Battlegrounds come out? Any of the same experiences?

it wont.

and you have only yourself to blame for for listening to liers who succeded in spreading the "pvp servers are only viable servers" nonsense.

anyone with eperience knew how it will end back on release then they released servers in 10:1 ratio with pvp vs pve servers.

pvp servers were always gankfiesta and nothing else.

want proof ? look at retail and ratio of pve to pvp servers there. (hint - there is a reason why it is like this)

- - - Updated - - -

And that's why I like the new Warmode in Retail, want to PvP ? fine, don't want to PvP ? fine too.

want to just point out that heavy ganking happens with warmode in retail too.

just yesterday i was leveling 4 alts via legion invasions and there was a duo of 120 level warlock and mage flying around and ganking 100-110 toons all that time

gankers are everywhere /shrug

[Schmilblick]

want to just point out that heavy ganking happens with warmode in retail too.

just yesterday i was leveling 4 alts via legion invasions and there was a duo of 120 level warlock and mage flying around and ganking 100-110 toons all that time

gankers are everywhere /shrug

But you can disable warmode, that's the biggest difference.

[Jehct]

Do you imagine this isnt a problem at level 60? You are the reason that world pvp died on retail. PVE'ers rolling on a pvp server and then crying about it.

Lol I love how you didn't even read the OP. Calm your big boy jets and go have a little read. It's ok to be wrong big boy.