How do you feel about Andrew Yang's UBI of 1,000 a month for every US Adult

[DisposableHero]

But you're ignoring the part where these people wouldn't contribute nearly as much as they get. That's the point. Money is a valuation of an individual's worth to the society, and society is made up of the free wills of everyone combined, taking into account their own worth versus everyone elses, their own desires and power versus everyone elses, etc.

Why do you suddenly get to decide that some fuck baby is now my problem? Because it was born? That's easy. It's nothing special in and of itself. "The miracle of life" is a lie. It's not a miracle, and it's not special. Ergo, it is deserving of nothing on it's own. Or would you pay $12 for a pencil? Piece of tape? Humans are a resource. A tool for the society they choose to participate in, at least as far as society is concerned. They're cell in the human body. Fat cells have their place, but too many makes an unfit body that will die early.


People don't all derive the same benefit from taxes, though. POTENTIAL benefit does not equal derived or realized benefit. They should be free to choose how much something does or does not matter to them.

With respect to proportional contributions: I am not ignoring it. In fact I'm seeking to correct it. You see the rich in our current society, extract far more value from our public systems than the poor or the working class, but they contribute to society vastly less. Their business under a relentless drive for profit deplete our natural resources at unsustainable rates, they benefit more from public services and infrastructures because they own properties, which get protected by law enforcement, they own businesses whose legal operating infrastructure is paid for by public money, the use the courts which are publicly funded far far more than the working class. This is to exclude specific egregious industries whose owners benefit immensely from public resources, such as media companies who broadcast over publicly licensed airwaves and frequency bands, the military industrial complex whose highly lucrative existence is leeched from tax dollars. The rich take more, and contribute less, on a scale that dwarfs any amount of luxurious living by non-working poor you could possibly dream up. A UBI, calibrated to give a dignified comfortable but spartan existence to members of society who don't earn a paycheck, could only serve to reduce disparities in contribution to society, without even beginning to talk about the upward pressure the ability to opt out of working would place on wages.

With respect to some fuck baby being your problem: You just hate the poor. It's okay, I hate the rich. Why should some warmonger jackoff get to make millions off my tax dollars building the next generation of assault weapon to put in the hands of the sons of my neighbors so his jackoff politician friend whose also paid on my dime can send those kids across the world to kill other poor people so a third rich jackoff can harvest foreign oil for profit. Who decided that was my problem?

With respect to benefit derived from taxes: Hey you're right! As outlined before the rich derive vastly more benefit from taxes than the rest of us, and proportionately they do not pay nearly a fair share. So in the name of society being more equal, lets make them contribute more, and then use that contribute to support the poor and down trodden more. Doesn't that sound like the right thing to do?

[jeezusisacasual]

I'd open up a shop that restores old cars or make a business that builds and repairs gaming PCs, but I don't have the money for that. A UBI would go a long way into making that happen. Especially if everyone got $12k a year, that means that people have spending money, which would only promote my business idea even further. Animators on YouTube could spend more time animating instead of working at terrible jobs that barely pay minimum wage. Or more people would spend more time contributing to open source projects like Linux instead of working at Starbucks.

So much potential could come from UBI. I mean yea, lots of people would sit on their asses all day and do nothing, but I find that acceptable. Maybe they'd go back to school or start a family. Seriously, not enough people fucking and making babies today, as our birth rate in 1st world countries are scary low. People can move out of high rent and expensive areas to live and move to cheaper places, thus reducing the cost of rent. So much good can come from this.

I know from the private equity firms that work in land assets would eat this apart is my biggest complaint with a UBI. You would have to do a wide range of movement for people to places like Wyoming, North/South Dakota etc. But you would also have to do this before again those private equity firms bought it all up with the loans they can leverage. It would take a MASSIVE undertaking to just have that sort of ruleset applied. I know you understand that large scale ownership groups would just get together or merge etc for market share dominance. At this point i am starting to think it would require another world war to reset the balance of power.

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They already contribute via paying taxes (there's more than income tax) and through acting as a consumer.

The idea that they're not contributing to society is a deliberate lie, and it's one made with malicious intent, to justify policies explicitly designed to increase human suffering.

So you'll forgive me if I don't take that argument seriously. Because it shouldn't be, by any rational human being.



I didn't say working a job couldn't provide you with self-worth and dignity.

But ask yourself if the same "self worth and dignity" is true of the young woman who's stripping to support herself and her young daughter, because she can make more money that way than otherwise.

Ask yourself if it applies to the high school graduate working the night shift at the 7-11 so he can afford college.

Or the new college graduate who's taking a job as a barista because there aren't any jobs in their field of specialization right now, even though it's a pay cut of about 70% of what they should be earning, because the student loan people need to get paid.

The idea that jobs are always people's source of self-worth and dignity is, frankly, bullshit. You're cherry-picking the few for whom that's true and pretending that applies to everyone, and it flatly doesn't.

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Bragging about how you support enslaving people against their will definitely means that morality has a lot to do with your position. Specifically, the lack of any moral code whatsoever.

Oh no i get and understand that problem but i am in the camp of free higher education and trade unions regardless of age. I love working and i figure the majority of people love working, i get to travel the world and work with people to build a better future for their heirs.

[Deletedaccount1]

And here's the core of the issue;

So what if she is?

There aren't enough jobs for everyone who wants one, let alone everyone who can work.
The economy only survives if consumers have money to use on consumption.
Pushing more people into hardship and thus into the labor force to attempt to escape hardship doesn't create any jobs, it just makes everything more difficult for everyone who's unemployed.

Where? There certainly is in the US.

[Endus]

We should all contribute just as Joe does and refuse to work. You would be so proud and society would flourish.

If anything, the government is contributing to society through Joe as a vessel.

I know straw men are easier to hit than someone else's actual argument, but that doesn't make them a valid counter.

Where? There certainly is in the US.

When did the U6 unemployment measure hit 0%?

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

Oh, wait, it's still up around 6.5%. Not enough jobs for everyone who wants a job to be fully employed, then, despite your claim otherwise.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I know straw men are easier to hit than someone else's actual argument, but that doesn't make them a valid counter.

Neither does deflection.

[Endus]

Neither does deflection.

I'm not "deflecting", at all.

You can address my points, and I'll respond. If you're going to make up straw men, I'm just going to point out you're doing so; I'm not going to waste my time tilting at your straw men for you.

[Machismo]

Where? There certainly is in the US.

Great, then why are all the national socialists opposing immigration?

Awkward.

[Elegiac]

We should all contribute just as Joe does and refuse to work. You would be so proud and society would flourish.

If anything, the government is contributing to society through Joe as a vessel.

Do y'all just not understand the concept of a consumer economy being based on consumption or what?

Also, the "what if everyone stopped working" argument is a pretty weak one considering exactly none of the available evidence suggests people are inherently lazy.

[Mayhem]

i mean, the "yes." was mostly a meme. i'd have used the actual meme, but sticks are firmly in anuses about memes here.

the main reason i don't want to work is because i kinda can't. online's the only place i can really speak with any clarity, and functioning at any normal level in public is pretty much entirely out of the question. idk what's wrong with me, but i'd most likely actually qualify for wellfare if i could go to get checked out.

i want UBI because i'm too scared to go get check out for it though. there's several reasons i don't want to have to talk to a doctor for it, but the main is what it'd cause in my home life. someone i live with wouldn't exactly be understanding of my problem, and i can't live on my own. it's self-defeating.

It's nice that you explain it but there should be no reason for you to do so. I mean, this is your private life and whatever reason you have to want UBI is of no one's business, even if you simply don't want to work.

We're a society, and even the ones not working are contributing to it, people have to get this into their stupid brains.

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If you want society to give you something, you better be willing or able to give something to society. Simply existing isn't enough.

Simply existing is giving something to society though. All the jobs associated with a UBI for example. Or the simple fact that you existing means you need stuff which in turn means others have work.

Of course, if everyone was like "I don't want to work" then it will collapse, but considering that a UBI is for everyone, the wage on top of it is like a bonus month by month and people will continue to want to have luxury items.

Another positive of UBI is it is giving people more of a choice in life and a better position when negotiating wages which is really needed in countries like the US.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I'm not "deflecting", at all.

You can address my points, and I'll respond. If you're going to make up straw men, I'm just going to point out you're doing so; I'm not going to waste my time tilting at your straw men for you.

If you can address mine, I'll respond, too. We seem to have different definitions of the word "contribute," however, so any discussion will fall flat.

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Do y'all just not understand the concept of a consumer economy being based on consumption or what?

Also, the "what if everyone stopped working" argument is a pretty weak one considering exactly none of the available evidence suggests people are inherently lazy.

That's not my argument. I was simply stating I hope I can contribute as much as the person that refuses to work, as he's been put on a pedestal.

[DisposableHero]

That's not my argument. I was simply stating I hope I can contribute as much as the person that refuses to work, as he's been put on a pedestal.

What did the poor do to you, to make you hate them so much? Why exactly do you find it morally acceptable to wish starvation and suffering upon them?

[Jonnusthegreat]

What did the poor do to you, to make you hate them so much? Why exactly do you find it morally acceptable to wish starvation and suffering upon them?

I wish you could read an argument and discuss it. I never stated anything remotely close to what you insinuate. It's clear you aren't thinking.

[jeezusisacasual]

It's nice that you explain it but there should be no reason for you to do so. I mean, this is your private life and whatever reason you have to want UBI is of no one's business, even if you simply don't want to work.

We're a society, and even the ones not working are contributing to it, people have to get this into their stupid brains.

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Simply existing is giving something to society though. All the jobs associated with a UBI for example. Or the simple fact that you existing means you need stuff which in turn means others have work.

Of course, if everyone was like "I don't want to work" then it will collapse, but considering that a UBI is for everyone, the wage on top of it is like a bonus month by month and people will continue to want to have luxury items.

Another positive of UBI is it is giving people more of a choice in life and a better position when negotiating wages which is really needed in countries like the US.

This is my entire opinion on the matter. My only negative towards this is how rewarding work has become for myself and others which has taken the forefront of the base level economic ideas of the western world. I tend to look at people as creatures of habit and that work should come before all else, its a legacy item in my eyes. How much more should people like myself before rewarded over those that are considered lazy by the majority of the populace? How much should they get? Should it be a even across the handout or should it capped at a specific income threshold? Should we eliminate the rest of the social safety net programs like most Libertarian economists think? How do we maintain the current control mechanism that businesses have over employees if they are freely allowed to walk?

Those questions will only be changed once we have a massive global problem that forces them to change. In my eyes i would rather work being a 25-30% bonus overall with a UBI provided to help keep a fully automated economy moving. But do not think that if the world becomes automated tomorrow that corporations and business leaders will bend over, some are even talking about downscaling and having a South African tale of 2 worlds idea. I was recently talking to heirs of a Australian mine who said the same very things to me.

Would a national rent control pass? Would land continue to stay cheap in specific parts of the US? How do you not get people to not collude to keep rents/land high? I mean people do not understand the massive scale of change that would be required when the US can not even get reasonable healthcare passed.

Understand i am firmly in support of a UBI but i know that the barriers to entry are so large ( in the US at the very least ) that without immense and frankly insane structural change it will be impossible, meaning that if the Alaskan dividend was attempted today it would be voted down.

[DisposableHero]

Understand i am firmly in support of a UBI but i know that the barriers to entry are so large ( in the US at the very least ) that without immense and frankly insane structural change it will be impossible, meaning that if the Alaskan dividend was attempted today it would be voted down.

What a shitty take this is. "It's the right thing, but it'll be hard to get done, so we shouldn't try."

[jeezusisacasual]

What a shitty take this is. "It's the right thing, but it'll be hard to get done, so we shouldn't try."

Go ahead and try honestly. I want to see how far this goes in the current political climate. We all know that single payer healthcare is the far best choice from studies to cost and it will not happen until mid to late 2020s. And i never said do not try but letting you know that just because a democrat wants it does not mean the rest of the party will go lock step behind them. But please tell me that i am wrong about the political climate today and going forward?

To get this passed you would have to first have a President and cabinet to betray any larger donor. Also it would require whomever the president to go to the various states of those legislators reside to raise a rally outside their homes hopefully with the power of the state government. They would then have to find a funding mechanism for the party after they leave office since they will likely have pissed off every single donor which in the US Dollars = Speech and Corporations are people also. So yes dismantle all of those barriers if at all possible and i will do what i can to support such a fight but i understand the reality of the situation.

[Mayhem]

This is my entire opinion on the matter. My only negative towards this is how rewarding work has become for myself and others which has taken the forefront of the base level economic ideas of the western world. I tend to look at people as creatures of habit and that work should come before all else, its a legacy item in my eyes. How much more should people like myself before rewarded over those that are considered lazy by the majority of the populace? How much should they get? Should it be a even across the handout or should it capped at a specific income threshold? Should we eliminate the rest of the social safety net programs like most Libertarian economists think? How do we maintain the current control mechanism that businesses have over employees if they are freely allowed to walk?

Those questions will only be changed once we have a massive global problem that forces them to change. In my eyes i would rather work being a 25-30% bonus overall with a UBI provided to help keep a fully automated economy moving. But do not think that if the world becomes automated tomorrow that corporations and business leaders will bend over, some are even talking about downscaling and having a South African tale of 2 worlds idea. I was recently talking to heirs of a Australian mine who said the same very things to me.

Would a national rent control pass? Would land continue to stay cheap in specific parts of the US? How do you not get people to not collude to keep rents/land high? I mean people do not understand the massive scale of change that would be required when the US can not even get reasonable healthcare passed.

Understand i am firmly in support of a UBI but i know that the barriers to entry are so large ( in the US at the very least ) that without immense and frankly insane structural change it will be impossible, meaning that if the Alaskan dividend was attempted today it would be voted down.

The US and its politicians seriously need to grow up and look for stuff outside their spheres and see how other countries work and do things.

For some reason, the can-do attitude of Americans changed to a can't-be-done attitude when it comes to something that resembles massive change even only by the looks of it.

[js3915]

I like it but its un-sustainable. In reality it will just make things more expensive

[jeezusisacasual]

I like it but its un-sustainable. In reality it will just make things more expensive

It depends on cost. For instance in places with large population centers things would likely jump more then the more rural areas which is in part what people want. The goal will be to build out the struggling Rust belt towns and areas with some form of commerce. Get Bill and Steve to make that pastry shop a reality in a place like Jackson Wyoming and the like. UBI can be a thing that would lift a solid 20% of the American underbelly right out of poverty. Lets not kid ourselves about the " charitable " giving that some people / corporations use to avoid paying taxes to begin with.

With a UBI people a couple go move to a rural town and easily buy a 80 to 120k home off of just the UBI alone, assuming the land rights are regulated across the nation. Funding is also not so bad really but i think those funding mechanisms will be used to tackle the growing Debt issue in the US at the very least. Things like a VAT is a last ditch effort to pass the cost onto the general populace instead of the corporate class. This is another reason why i was saying about how hard this would be to get passed in that the FED already looks into Unionization and strikes as factors into rate changes, this is why some find Paul Volcker a horrible man since he asked for the impartiality of the FED as it was not the entire case prior to his leadership. As a finance guy i actually think that is best but it can show you whom they are aligned with.

I really want a UBI above all else and i would like it before we see a new wave of extreme poverty in the western world.

[js3915]

It depends on cost. For instance in places with large population centers things would likely jump more then the more rural areas which is in part what people want. The goal will be to build out the struggling Rust belt towns and areas with some form of commerce. Get Bill and Steve to make that pastry shop a reality in a place like Jackson Wyoming and the like. UBI can be a thing that would lift a solid 20% of the American underbelly right out of poverty. Lets not kid ourselves about the " charitable " giving that some people / corporations use to avoid paying taxes to begin with.

With a UBI people a couple go move to a rural town and easily buy a 80 to 120k home off of just the UBI alone, assuming the land rights are regulated across the nation. Funding is also not so bad really but i think those funding mechanisms will be used to tackle the growing Debt issue in the US at the very least. Things like a VAT is a last ditch effort to pass the cost onto the general populace instead of the corporate class. This is another reason why i was saying about how hard this would be to get passed in that the FED already looks into Unionization and strikes as factors into rate changes, this is why some find Paul Volcker a horrible man since he asked for the impartiality of the FED as it was not the entire case prior to his leadership. As a finance guy i actually think that is best but it can show you whom they are aligned with.

I really want a UBI above all else and i would like it before we see a new wave of extreme poverty in the western world.

Yeah but who is paying for this... You realize to give everyone 1K a month to 217M Americans will cost 2.604 trillion / year

You could ask all the billionares to pay but they would be broke after the first year. Just because they're net worth is a billion doesn't mean they have a billion sitting in their bank account.

You could tax businesses but they will pass the taxes back to the populace which will eat a big portion of that 1000/m for the majority of people.

Instead of giving people free money maybe fix the tax system first. I would love to pay less in taxes I feel overtaxed as is. 1000/mo wont help that especially if higher prices means that 1000 will be more like 500 or less with higher cost of goods

[jeezusisacasual]

Yeah but who is paying for this... You realize to give everyone 1K a month to 217M Americans will cost 2.604 trillion / year

You could ask all the billionares to pay but they would be broke after the first year. Just because they're net worth is a billion doesn't mean they have a billion sitting in their bank account.

You could tax businesses but they will pass the taxes back to the populace which will eat a big portion of that 1000/m for the majority of people.

Instead of giving people free money maybe fix the tax system first. I would love to pay less in taxes I feel overtaxed as is. 1000/mo wont help that especially if higher prices means that 1000 will be more like 500 or less with higher cost of goods

You can have a myriad of ways to pay for it but to claim inflationary metrics is kind of odd as how much liquidity is flush in the financial markets with next to no real inflation outside of healthcare / rents. No one is saying that none of the taxation costs wont be placed on the consumer ( this is why i think a VAT would be best as a major way to pay for it to keep the cycle of consumerism going in the US ) but it will not be as much as you would think. This is the same argument that various fear mongers used in Seattle and New York that the market apocalypse is coming and outside of already struggling businesses that has largely not been the case see all the inflationary reaction.

Places you would likely see real inflation would be in Land and utilities above all else. It would be rather stable on the land for the foreseeable future in that places like i mentioned before would be more apt at people to move like the Dakotas, Nebraska, Wyoming ( my home state ), Idaho etc. This would also be a very large boon for the Dollar Generals of the world as they would explode more then they already are.

I mean talking of taxation is a bit funny because here in Australia i am taxed at 32.5% and i am taxed in the US at 31,000$ a year ( which i get removed due to breaks and allowances) which i find to be fine in every way where as in the US i was taxed at around 26% ( i have no children nor do i want them ) which was in my eyes to low. But that being said a VAT is coming to the US one way or another simply to combat the growing debt or to pay for more of the societal needs that are coming in a world ever growing more automated.

I work in finance and i understand that completely with regards to taxation on investments and the like. I help people hide money for a living and have done so for over a decade.